It is historically accurate

[theglenlivet12]

...for the destroyers not to chase you for very long. I found a little ditty here that explains it. Its about a minute into this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYFdjZqKFCo&NR=1

[JU_88]

...for the destroyers not to chase you for very long. I found a little ditty here that explains it. Its about a minute into this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYFdjZqKFCo&NR=1

Depends on the role of the destroyer.

Yes that is certainly realistic for convoy escorts, there one and only priority was to bring as many merchants safley back to port. it was not there job to go galavanting off to hunt Uboats to the death (a la SH3), but to stick to the convoy like glue and force the Uboats to go deep where they couldn't attack and were too slow to persue.

Its a different story for Hunter killer groups though.....they would hunt a single uboat for days on end if needed.
I remember this was discussed before SHV was released, it was agreed that SHV needed more than one set of escort AI behaviour (offensive and defensive) for this very purpose.

[Bilge_Rat]

that's right, in the early part of the war when escorts were in short supply, they would just try to hold down the U-Boat for a few hours and race back to the convoy. That was usually enough to leave the U-Boat out of position and unable to launch another attack.

later on, when they had a lot more escorts and continuous air cover, the Allies could afford to park 2-3 escorts or a whole HK group over a single boat for the 1-2 days it could take to kill it or force it to the surface.

[JohnMalcolm1970]

Escorts often had to break off to get back to keeping other u-boats at bay, and they also might have been best placed to attempt to pick up survivors.

[Bothersome]

This thread reveals interesting information...

My question is: What would be the best tactic from the U-Boats commander where he is up against a HK group out for his destruction where they are willing to wait till hell freezes over to get him?

Could he surface and immediately surrender? What would be the consequences of this?

Could he come up for a quick refresh of air and then dive again for another day or so under? Is it possible to get enough fresh air quick enough before the DDs found him?

I'm thinking of a scenario where he sitting on the bottom at 120 meters acting like a rock.

[severniae]

This thread reveals interesting information...

My question is: What would be the best tactic from the U-Boats commander where he is up against a HK group out for his destruction where they are willing to wait till hell freezes over to get him?

Could he surface and immediately surrender? What would be the consequences of this?

Could he come up for a quick refresh of air and then dive again for another day or so under? Is it possible to get enough fresh air quick enough before the DDs found him?

I'm thinking of a scenario where he sitting on the bottom at 120 meters acting like a rock.

I've read before that submarine commanders who surrendered their ship were treated fairly badly by their comrades in the POW camps. I can't remember which commander, who abandoned his ship by jumping onto the nearby destroyer was tried by an unofficial 'court' in the POW camp.

I'm fairly sure that If he came up for air whilst the DD's were in eyeball range then the ship would look like Swiss cheese in fairly short order. - And in some cases DD hunter groups would search for many many hours if they thought there was a u-boot nearby!

[Bothersome]

What would you do in such a situation?

1. Die by carbon dioxide asphyxiation.
2. Surface and surrender with only a 50% chance of survival. Be court marshaled by your POW fellow comrades.
3. Come off the bottom and attempt a sneak away maneuver 1 or two hours before your crew actually start dieing of carbon dioxide asphyxiation. Option here is wait two more hours and hope the DDs give up.
4. Come up fighting.
5. Attempt a breath of fresh air sneakily.

[severniae]

Personally, I'd order all the crews to go to bed wearing masks. And then go deep and sneak my ass off!

[danasan]

Hunter Killer Groups were often supported by carriers. As long as the aircrafts could take off, I think there was no chance to surface. Maybe later with a snorkel to get some fresh air in...

At the end: Hoping for a quick mercy killing.

danasan

[Bilge_Rat]

Ideally what a submarine commander wanted to do was to lose the escorts, surface at night/in fog and escape at high speed.

Escaping underwater was very difficult considering a submerged speed of 1-2 knots per hour. Escaping on the surface was possible since the max. effective range of allied surface radar against a U-Boat, even in 43, was around 5 km.

obviously, whether it could be done depended on weather conditions/visibility, number/skill of the escorts, presence of aircraft.

[IanC]

Personally, I'd order all the crews to go to bed wearing masks. And then go deep and sneak my ass off!

Now where have I seen that before... :hmmm:

[mobucks]

id say the best way to avoid that would be never to get yourself into that situation in the first place. thats why i love SH, its the best stealth game! Yes being DCd is fun but if that happens IMO you did something wrong.

[severniae]

Now where have I seen that before... :hmmm:

I can't imagine......... ;)

[Capt_Sluggo]

id say the best way to avoid that would be never to get yourself into that situation in the first place. thats why i love SH, its the best stealth game! Yes being DCd is fun but if that happens IMO you did something wrong.

Agreed!

But you've got to love those temptations that come along - "risk v. reward" situations wherein a little added aggressiveness could yield a lot of added tonnage. Last night I tried coming back to 12 meters after getting another torp loaded to hit a big troop transport, and ended up getting DC'd close enough to rock the boat. Narrowest escape so far, a good scare.

Assuming the escorts would be just as ridiculously incompetent as they had always been with prior convoys was a big mistake. Gomer Pyle: "Surprise, surprise, surprise!"

:-?

[msxyz]

A real, forgotten story of luck and courage

At the end of 1940 the old Italian submarine "Piero Capponi" attacked a escorted convoy near Malta and became soon a prey to the convoy escorts. :ping:

After several hours of bombing the situation aboard the submersible was desperate: the batteries were exhausted, the depth charges damaged one of the propellers and the air conditioners started to leak toxic R40 coolant (Chloromethane). The last was a defect common to many Italian boats that costed the loss of several vessels and crews.

Even if the Capponi escaped the hunt of the escorts it was dangerously close to Malta and had to surface in broad daylight to ventilate the interiors, perform some necessary repairs and recharge the batteries.

Luck ran out when a destroyer patrolling the waters of Malta intercepted the surfaced boat dead in the waters. The Italian commander ordered the men to arm the machine guns used for point defense against aircrafts while a pair of torpedoes were readied, even if the British destroyer was approaching the submersible from an unfavorable position. The captain and other men on the sail climbed the rail and started waving the arms while a few sailors, hidden, finished arming the machine guns.

:arrgh!:

The British destroyer fell for this century old trick; it had been already used by pirates in the past and, in a more subtle manner, by the British Admiralty itself during WW1 with the creation of their "Q-ships" traps. A submersible, surfaced in the light of the day with engines humming and men hailing an incoming ship wasn't the kind of enemy the British were expecting.

The Italian marconist aboard the Capponi reported that the destroyer contacted its base at Malta signaling "a French sub" which was surrendering
to the British forces. As soon as the destroyer came close, the Italian sailors hidden in the conning tower quickly jumped to the machine guns and began strafing the surprised ship with a rain of bullets. Most of the British sailors on the deck and superstructures were caught by surprise and dispatched quickly. The radio operator frantically asked the base for help while someone was able to launch a signal flare.

Malta coastal batteries became live and targeted the submersible even if it was partially covered by the unlucky destroyer. The submersible crash dived after creating a smoke screen. Meanwhile the destroyer distanced itself from the submersible with the remaining men aboard manning the deck guns

A shell perforated the bow of the Capponi without exploding (leaving a neat hole in the flooded part of the bow) while another exploded nearby in the water damaging the sail.

The boat was now taking water from the damaged conning tower and the batteries were nowhere fully recharged. The captain of the boat decided to steer the submersible towards the entrance of La Valletta port. At the same time two British destroyers left the harbor.

The decision to head towards La Valletta harbor proved to be the right one. The submersible, still taking water, hit the seabed at 102m (beyond the maximum operational depth of the old, battle battered submersible) while the destroyers began a fruitless pursuit in the opposite direction!

Situation aboard was still critical, though. The air conditioner was still releasing toxic fumes and, even if the water leak was closed, surfacing now would have meant sure death at the hands of the angry British.

Finally, at 2230 the boat surfaced and, gambling on the dark, it was able to limp back to the base

:salute:

[robbo180265]

A real, forgotten story of luck and courage

At the end of 1940 the old Italian submarine "Piero Capponi" attacked a escorted convoy near Malta and became soon a prey to the convoy escorts. :ping:

After several hours of bombing the situation aboard the submersible was desperate: the batteries were exhausted, the depth charges damaged one of the propellers and the air conditioners started to leak toxic R40 coolant (Chloromethane). The last was a defect common to many Italian boats that costed the loss of several vessels and crews.

Even if the Capponi escaped the hunt of the escorts it was dangerously close to Malta and had to surface in broad daylight to ventilate the interiors, perform some necessary repairs and recharge the batteries.

Luck ran out when a destroyer patrolling the waters of Malta intercepted the surfaced boat dead in the waters. The Italian commander ordered the men to arm the machine guns used for point defense against aircrafts while a pair of torpedoes were readied, even if the British destroyer was approaching the submersible from an unfavorable position. The captain and other men on the sail climbed the rail and started waving the arms while a few sailors, hidden, finished arming the machine guns.

:arrgh!:

The British destroyer fell for this century old trick; it had been already used by pirates in the past and, in a more subtle manner, by the British Admiralty itself during WW1 with the creation of their "Q-ships" traps. A submersible, surfaced in the light of the day with engines humming and men hailing an incoming ship wasn't the kind of enemy the British were expecting.

The Italian marconist aboard the Capponi reported that the destroyer contacted its base at Malta signaling "a French sub" which was surrendering
to the British forces. As soon as the destroyer came close, the Italian sailors hidden in the conning tower quickly jumped to the machine guns and began strafing the surprised ship with a rain of bullets. Most of the British sailors on the deck and superstructures were caught by surprise and dispatched quickly. The radio operator frantically asked the base for help while someone was able to launch a signal flare.

Malta coastal batteries became live and targeted the submersible even if it was partially covered by the unlucky destroyer. The submersible crash dived after creating a smoke screen. Meanwhile the destroyer distanced itself from the submersible with the remaining men aboard manning the deck guns

A shell perforated the bow of the Capponi without exploding (leaving a neat hole in the flooded part of the bow) while another exploded nearby in the water damaging the sail.

The boat was now taking water from the damaged conning tower and the batteries were nowhere fully recharged. The captain of the boat decided to steer the submersible towards the entrance of La Valletta port. At the same time two British destroyers left the harbor.

The decision to head towards La Valletta harbor proved to be the right one. The submersible, still taking water, hit the seabed at 102m (beyond the maximum operational depth of the old, battle battered submersible) while the destroyers began a fruitless pursuit in the opposite direction!

Situation aboard was still critical, though. The air conditioner was still releasing toxic fumes and, even if the water leak was closed, surfacing now would have meant sure death at the hands of the angry British.

Finally, at 2230 the boat surfaced and, gambling on the dark, it was able to limp back to the base

:salute:

What an amazing story - thanks for sharing it with us:up: