Game end sequence ***Spoiler alert***

[captainprid]

Finished the game, i'm now going to start again...can't wait.

Little disappointed with the end as it cuts out in the middle of a mission as soon as you hit your target. Can't wait for a new mod extending the game. Anyway, a year down the line, in my opinion this game will be a triumph but currently it does need work and lots of it

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn191/charliethedog/SH5Img2010-04-20_230408.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn191/charliethedog/SH5Img2010-04-20_230439.jpg

[Ducimus]

Nice. Anticlimatic, but a decent punch line. :O:

[Noren]

whats that?

an allied win with huge winnings in tonnage and missions?

[Takeda Shingen]

whats that?

an allied win with huge winnings in tonnage and missions?

Well, yes. What, are you going to sink 9 million tons of shipping by yourself?

[captainprid]

I did 3.5 million tonnes. Rediculous..yeah but a lot of fun

[Sgtmonkeynads]

You, the greatest Sub Ace ever helped to make SH3.............

:har::har::har::har::har:

I wonder who in the hell helped them make SH5........

[IanC]

You, the greatest Sub Ace ever helped to make SH3.............

:har::har::har::har::har:

I wonder who in the hell helped them make SH5........

Yeah I find that SHIII comment a little weird... :doh: :lol:

[rascal101]

Interesting that you helped make SH3 not SH5 - even the developers or publishers thing SH3 is a more interesting game

R

[msxyz]

Interesting that you helped make SH3 not SH5 - even the developers or publishers thing SH3 is a more interesting game

R

Or maybe that you hit the bucket before SH5 is in the works. How many uboot commanders are still alive? Maybe a few who were in their 20's by the war end, but all the most famous aces already died of age.

[LukeFF]

Yeah I find that SHIII comment a little weird... :doh: :lol:

Jurgen Oesten was consulted for SH3, and he's still alive.

Successes
18 ships sunk for a total of 100,007 GRT
1 auxiliary warship sunk for a total of 1,737 GRT
3 ships damaged for a total of 20,568 GRT
1 warship damaged for a total of 31,100 tons

http://uboat.net/men/oesten.htm

[Der Teddy Bar]

Jurgen Oesten was consulted for SH3, and he's still alive.

And I have the video of the interview :D

[captainprid]

And I have the video of the interview :D

Care to share??

[Sailor Steve]

You, the greatest Sub Ace ever helped to make SH3.............

:har::har::har::har::har:

I wonder who in the hell helped them make SH5........
Yeah I find that SHIII comment a little weird... :doh: :lol:
As said, they had a real submariner for SH and 2 u-boat aces for SH2 and SH3. I don't think anyone is young enough to interview now for SH4 and SH5.

So SH3 may be the last WW2 sub sim to have help from someone who was there.

[Bilge_Rat]

wasnt Eric Topp interviewed for SH2?

[Commie]

That's a pretty awful ending. Even grammatically it's bad, skipping from present to past tense. Ingrish at its best I'd say. Didn't even know that NATO had a navy....


BTW Georg Lassen is still alive, as is Reinhart Hardegen and of course Oesten.

Erich Topp was interviewed along with others for Aces of the Deep. Don't know about SH2.

[Faamecanic]

Reminds me of the end of Monty Python and The Holy Grail.

For those not faniliar with "The Holy Grail" the film abruptly ends as Repo men come to take back props and costumes because the film ran out of money..... :har:

[captainprid]

Reminds me of the end of Monty Python and The Holy Grail.

For those not faniliar with "The Holy Grail" the film abruptly ends as Repo men come to take back props and costumes because the film ran out of money..... :har:


:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2::up::up:

[captainprid]

That's a pretty awful ending. Even grammatically it's bad, skipping from present to past tense. Ingrish at its best I'd say. Didn't even know that NATO had a navy....


BTW Georg Lassen is still alive, as is Reinhart Hardegen and of course Oesten.

Erich Topp was interviewed along with others for Aces of the Deep. Don't know about SH2.

Individual sovereign assets are "declared" to NATO and operations are conducted unders their auspices

[Cap.Palla]

The game end in 1943???
Why??
No final destination to Buenos Aires with some general or top secret documents?
:nope:

[IanC]

As said, they had a real submariner for SH and 2 u-boat aces for SH2 and SH3. I don't think anyone is young enough to interview now for SH4 and SH5.

So SH3 may be the last WW2 sub sim to have help from someone who was there.

Yeah I knew about the consultations, when I said I find the SHIII comment strange I meant... Hmm I can't put my finger on it exactly. Maybe something to do with you're in 1943 and somebody tells you about 2005 SHIII while in reality you're playing SH5... :doh:

I think the Monty Python ending sums it up better. :lol:

[captainprid]

Sorry chaps. There was another screen which came first in the sequence of three. Find it below....

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn191/charliethedog/SH5Img2010-04-21_174403.jpg

[kylania]

Pretty sure that ending screen was the same one from SHIII, which is why it lists SHIII.

As for consultation, they should talk to Zimmerman, what with this 7 million+ tonnage across 9 patrols: http://silent-hunter.us.ubi.com/silent-hunter-5/leaderboard.php?stat=0 :timeout:
(http://silent-hunter.us.ubi.com/silent-hunter-5/leaderboard.php?stat=0)

[IanC]

Ok that one looks pretty cool, too bad about the flags though.

[captainprid]

Well what is historical accuracy compared to peoples tender sensibilities

:nope:

[Rip]

Here I though Black may was May of 2010 when the much sought after patch for SHV failed to materialize?
:D

[IanC]

Well what is historical accuracy compared to peoples tender sensibilities

:nope:

Well I can understand the sensibilities, just that I don't think that drawing can be modded historically... or can it? :hmmm:

Edit: Eh what am I saying, looks like a (relatively) easy photoshop job.

[Ducimus]

Sorry chaps. There was another screen which came first in the sequence of three. Find it below....

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn191/charliethedog/SH5Img2010-04-21_174403.jpg

I'll say it. That's disgusting and in poor taste. ANYTHING that glorifies the reich is disgusting and in poor taste.

[Platapus]

I'll say it. That's disgusting and in poor taste. ANYTHING that glorifies the reich is disgusting and in poor taste.

you mean like a video game where players assume roles of members of the Reich's military and simulate the killing of American and British ships and people?

If you are willing to play a German WWII-U-boat commander and sink American and British ships, I don't think you should be offended by some end of game screen display. :nope:

[Noren]

I'll say,there's a distinction between enjoying the satisfaction of playing the enemy side in an simulation and feeling true glory when the swastika or third reich memoria are shown. Of course, somewhere the thrill of the hunt and the true horror of the war meet and then its not so funny anymore...

Its true, Hitler killed jews amd duped the germans but what other crimes did he do - that other conqouring countries has'nt done before his times? As we play, there are still contries who do not hold honest elections with a free press... I pray they will be gone before I die.

[LukeFF]

wasnt Eric Topp interviewed for SH2?

Yes

[LukeFF]

Care to share??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsf8Ovsja9k

Also see http://silenthunteriii.com/uk/videos.php

[Ducimus]

you mean like a video game where players assume roles of members of the Reich's military and simulate the killing of American and British ships and people?

If you are willing to play a German WWII-U-boat commander and sink American and British ships, I don't think you should be offended by some end of game screen display. :nope:


WRONG. There's a BIG difference in playing a submarine simulation as a weapon of war in and of itself. And things like imagery that gloriy the 3rd reich.

There are several things wrong with the imagery in that picture.

1.) The emphasis on the flags in the background. Three of them for christ sakes. Having removed the swaztika means jack, we all know what it is.

2.) The reich eagle in the foreground. Having removed the swaztika from it's talons means jack. We all know what it is.

3.) The uboat is sandwiched between the two, being wrapped in the symbolism of an ideology.

4.) The context of the message smacks of negationism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism_(negationism))

5.) The composition, and theme of the overall picture is a carbon copy of Nazi propaganda posters. Google image search that and you'll see simularities

6.) The flowery rose petals shower, indicating heroic" and triumphant over the existing symbolism. Kinda like a roman parade you see in the movies.

[IanC]

WRONG. There's a BIG difference in playing a submarine simulation as a weapon of war in and of itself. And things like imagery that gloriy the 3rd reich.


But isn't that image part of the subsim? :doh:

[Ducimus]

But isn't that image part of the subsim? :doh:

Context. Context is everything. The context in that one end screen is exactly as i described it in my last post, and it's all bad.

[IanC]

Context. Context is everything. The context in that one end screen is exactly as i described it in my last post, and it's all bad.

Well yeah exactly. The context of that image is that you're a German U-boat kaleun who just finished a successful campaign for The Fatherland. It's part of the game.

[Ducimus]

:nope:

I love it when people are so wrapped up in Uboat romance they lose historical perspective through rose tinted glasses. Go ahead and lay glory and approbation to the 3rd reich if that's your thing, personally I just wanted a submarine simulation. No flowery imagery required for that.

[IanC]

Sorry Ducimus, I always thought of myself as very sensitive to racism and antisemitism, but I'm not seeing what you are in that image. Its context is part of the sim, in my eyes.
I think I'll just leave it at that.

[Commie]

Sorry chaps. There was another screen which came first in the sequence of three. Find it below....

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn191/charliethedog/SH5Img2010-04-21_174403.jpg

Doesn't this slide contradict the next one you say shows up with the 'u-boat campaign fails'? It's a bit pointless to praise the U-boat campaign one minute and your actions and then the next talk about how the campaign fails. The last two slides in particular seem rushed and seem almost to be there just to 'show' that the game isn't promoting Nazi triumphalism with their 'BUT in the end Germany loses' bit, which is obvious anyway.

[msxyz]

5.) The composition, and theme of the overall picture is a carbon copy of Nazi propaganda posters. Google image search that and you'll see simularities

6.) The flowery rose petals shower, indicating heroic" and triumphant over the existing symbolism. Kinda like a roman parade you see in the movies.

Sorry Dulcimus but I think point 5 and 6 are enough to Justify the use of such an image. Have you seen some propaganda images of uboot returng home? It's prefectly fit that your successful sub is depicted in such a way because that's what it would have been done in RL.

Most soldiers fight wars they did not choose to wage but, by playing the role of an uboot commander, you're doing the bidding of the German political class of the time, like it or not. That means the nazi party.

[captainprid]

This argument is a little strange to say the least and I am struggling to fathom out the arguments.

In the first instance we are playing a simulator that represents basically the murder of innocents by a fascist regime but yet people are complaining that it glorifies the Nazi state, that is irony at its best.
It is important that games like this are framed in an historical context and that means including in the game why the U-Boats were there after all.

I would think National Socialism is abhorrent to pretty much everyone who plays and enjoys this game as well as the contributors of this forum but nevertheless, it was a fact. Freedom of expression and the fight to maintain that freedom was the reason that so many people died; to dismiss imagery and blatant facts as racsist and then try to ban them for that reason goes against everything people fought for.

If the lessons of history are forgotten then they will repeats themselves over and over again.

I understand the point that the last screen I posted blatantly glorifies Nazi Germany but it is set in an historical context, it is not promoting National Socialism at all. To a lesser extent, in SHIII the band playing at the quayside could be considered to be glorifying the boats march to war or much of the dialogue conducted with the flotilla chief in SHV could be considered the same.

The bigger issue here is the fact that Nazi symbolism is banned in many European countries, frankly that is their affair, in England it is not illegal say or display anything which would interfere with freedom of expression short of inciting racial hatred. Quite frankly the Nazi's and for that matter the communists were scum, most totalitarian regimes are. They murder and butcher innocents for their own twisted ideals but the reason we fight is so people can say what they please, so they can be free to choose.

I may not agree with what you say but I will defend with my life you're right to say it

[EAF274 Johan]

Little disappointed with the end as it cuts out in the middle of a mission as soon as you hit your target.That's bad. I can accept the fact that the campaign ends in '43, but right in the middle of a patrol? I hope that can be patched/modded out.

[captainprid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsf8Ovsja9k

Also see http://silenthunteriii.com/uk/videos.php


Many Thanks for that. Jurgen Oesten seems a very nice guy, excellent English and can spin a ripping yarn!!



Another nice interview is this one with Erich Topp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYlk0YUaxPU&NR=1

[Jimbuna]

Finished the game, i'm now going to start again...can't wait.



With reference to the two pictures in your first post.....pretty accurate and believable http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[elanaiba]

Ducimus, try and look at it this way... no one should be hiding what the uboats were or who the Kriegsmarine/German Military was lead by.

[Faamecanic]

:nope:

I love it when people are so wrapped up in Uboat romance they lose historical perspective through rose tinted glasses. Go ahead and lay glory and approbation to the 3rd reich if that's your thing, personally I just wanted a submarine simulation. No flowery imagery required for that.

Duc...I understand where you are coming from. But lets not be overly sensitive and read something into this thats not there. I do agree there is no need for the swastika as it was a symbol of evil.

But those end photos conjure up the words in Adm. Doenitz book "ten years and twenty days" where he said the KM and all common soliders and sailors fought for thier country with pride". Adm. Nimitz then also backed Doenitz as he tesitfied for him at the Nuremburg War Trials and said "the uboat arm did nothing more then we did in the pacific".

Should we Americans feel shame in what we did to Japanesse merchantmen? Sailors who where just doing a job? No we shouldnt glorify it (and making a game about it borders on glorification)... But in fact playing all the SH seires actually made me reflect on ALL the sailors/submariners and the sacrafice they gave, and the pride they felt for what they were doing, no matter what flag they flew under.

NOTE I also agree with you that if someone is loosing "jollies" over the lack of a swastikz...then they need thier head examined.

[Faamecanic]

Most soldiers fight wars they did not choose to wage but, by playing the role of an uboot commander, you're doing the bidding of the German political class of the time, like it or not. That means the nazi party.

Actual in Doenitz book...he took pride in the the fact that MOST of his Uboat commanders and sailors did NOT belong to or were forced to subscribe to the traditions of the Nazi party.

In fact after Hitlers attempted assassination at the Wolfs Lair, Hitler made the decree that ALL military must salute him with the Nazi salute or be considered for treason. Adm. Doenitz got into a rather heated discussion with Hitler and demanded that HIS KM be allowed to maintain the traditional salute (which looks like our American Military salute) because they earned it with their lives everytime they went out on a U-boat.

[Bilge_Rat]

Actual in Doenitz book...he took pride in the the fact that MOST of his Uboat commanders and sailors did NOT belong to or were forced to subscribe to the traditions of the Nazi party.

In fact after Hitlers attempted assassination at the Wolfs Lair, Hitler made the decree that ALL military must salute him with the Nazi salute or be considered for treason. Adm. Doenitz got into a rather heated discussion with Hitler and demanded that HIS KM be allowed to maintain the traditional salute (which looks like our American Military salute) because they earned it with their lives everytime they went out on a U-boat.

Dont underestimate Nazi influence in the Wehrmacht, Prien was an ardent nazi. Many officers got promoted because they were ardent Nazis.

One U-Boat captain, Oskar Kusch, was denounced by his first officer for anti-Nazi sentiments, sentenced to death and shot in 1944. Donitz did not lift a finger to help him which outraged many U-Boat captains.

http://www.uboat.net/men/kusch.htm

Stalin carried out a purge of his armed forces in 1937-39 because he was worried about the loyalty of his men. Hitler never had to since he knew the majority of the officers agreed with the right-wing agenda of the nazi party.

It is very easy for Donitz after the war to say that he was never really a nazi, but actions speak louder than words.

[captainprid]

Dont underestimate Nazi influence in the Wehrmacht, Prien was an ardent nazi. Many officers got promoted because they were ardent Nazis.

One U-Boat captain, Oskar Kusch, was denounced by his first officer for anti-Nazi sentiments, sentenced to death and shot in 1944. Donitz did not lift a finger to help him which outraged many U-Boat captains.

http://www.uboat.net/men/kusch.htm

Stalin carried out a purge of his armed forces in 1937-39 because he was worried about the loyalty of his men. Hitler never had to since he knew the majority of the officers agreed with the right-wing agenda of the nazi party.

It is very easy for Donitz after the war to say that he was never really a nazi, but actions speak louder than words.


Especially when the noose is half way over your head and there is the smell of a book deal

[Faamecanic]

Dont underestimate Nazi influence in the Wehrmacht, Prien was an ardent nazi. Many officers got promoted because they were ardent Nazis.

One U-Boat captain, Oskar Kusch, was denounced by his first officer for anti-Nazi sentiments, sentenced to death and shot in 1944. Donitz did not lift a finger to help him which outraged many U-Boat captains.

http://www.uboat.net/men/kusch.htm

Stalin carried out a purge of his armed forces in 1937-39 because he was worried about the loyalty of his men. Hitler never had to since he knew the majority of the officers agreed with the right-wing agenda of the nazi party.

It is very easy for Donitz after the war to say that he was never really a nazi, but actions speak louder than words.

But Adm. Doenitz also went to Hitler to get one of his Jr. Officers out of the SS clink when this Jr. officer was caught in a romance with a Jewish Girl....

Sure like any big organiztion Snr. Officers and Staff/Flag officers had to tow the line to a certain degree. And I never said NONE of the KM were Nazis... a lot were. That was probably part of the downfall of Germany during WWII... a lot of the soliders and sailors were always looking over thier shoulders and not trusting thier Snr. officers or fellow officers due to some being Pro-Nazi and some just full of national pride (which SHV tries to capture with you not being neccessarily pro-Nazi, but your first officer is...).

[Bilge_Rat]

It is well known Donitz was a Nazi and loyal to Hitler. He would not have received the promotions he did during the war if he was not.

That does not mean however that every Nazi/Nazi supporter supported every facet of nazi ideology, including the extermination of the Jewish people (although I seriously doubt every high ranking member of the Wehrmacht were as ignorant of the "Final Solution" during the war as they later claimed :rolleyes:).

Probably the best judgement on Donitz was rendered by his peers, the Allied admirals who fought against him, who were against his being tried as a war criminal since they were of the opinion that he had fought a tough, but clean naval war.

Back to the game, there has always been a dichotomy inherent in playing any type of realistic simulation. You can despise a particular regime, while still admiring their military prowess from a strictly professional viewpoint. The U.S. Army studied the German campaigns on the OstFront for years to get tips on how to beat the Soviets.

I despise both Hitler's and Stalin's regime, yet have no problem commanding German or Soviet pixeltruppen in CMBB, IL-2, SH5, et al. The purpose of a simulation for me is to recreate the what if factor, what would I do as commander in a particular situation, how could I do better than the real commander, who I command, whether Nazis, Soviets, Japanese, Americans, British, Canadians, Israelis, Syrians, Egyptians, Guerilla irregulars, et al. has little relevance, it is the intellectual challenge which is interesting.

[Ducimus]

Ducimus, try and look at it this way... no one should be hiding what the uboats were or who the Kriegsmarine/German Military was lead by.

Id never argue against the swaztika being displayed in game. Thats historical context. That flowery imagery though, crosses the line from representation, to glorification, and i will always maintain it is in POOR TASTE because of it. Your artist should have been more mindful.

Edit: I have half a mind to to post pictures of holocost victims to remind people what the swaztika stands for. :nope:

[TheSatyr]

You also need to remember that the US Navy HAD to aid in Doenitz' defense at his trial. If Doenitz was found guilty of war crimes for his prosecution of the U-Boat war then Lockwood,Christie and Fyfe could have been viewed as war criminals as well.

[GoldenRivet]

DRM/OSP, not worth it...

Bugs, not worth it...

and now that i have seen the end sequence, it's also not worth it...




Initiating uninstall

im not trying to be mean, I have been a diehard fan of the series since it started, but...

Silent Hunter 5 - out of the box - has been the worst, and i do mean the absolute worst video gaming purchase i have ever made... even over the PC version of blazing angels.

It has no appeal, no longevity, it is bugged beyond my comprehension, and the ending sequence is so anti-climactic its like watching paint dry.

I literally have not even fired it up in about 40 days anyway as any and all excitement i had about the game left me within about a week of purchase :nope:

[danasan]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn191/charliethedog/SH5Img2010-04-21_174403.jpg


Moin Moin,

ON topic:

I do really think there is no need for these heroic, gloryfieing things nowadays. Looking at that image, I feel as if transported directly into the Reichskanzlei in Berlin in the 1940s.

ON the main discussion, which I really like, let me add some details, please:

I am 45 now, my father died two years ago at the age of 90.

I am sure, most of us depend on second hand information on who was nazi or not. I myself do not blame anybody to be or have been nazi, if I do not know him personally. DO NOT get me wrong, I disagree with any of their intentions anyway.
AND MANY Germans had the NSDAP party book, were in the SS, knew what was going on. Too many.

Why did I put my father here? He was a nazi and he served as a SS officer in Russia. He often told me about what he caused there. I can't help that fact. But I can still put my finger on him...

I used to be in the german army for 12 years as a tank commander and later as a platoon leader.

I had to swear, like every one else, on the flag, to fight for and defend my "fatherland".

This is and was practise before and after WWII.

In the 3rd Reich, any soldier had to swear on the flag to fight and defend A SINGLE PERSON: Adolf Hitler.

I do not know when and where exactly the soldiers were released from that, I would call it a contract with the evil, but it was after Hitler was dead.

There was surely a lot of soldier's loyalism to Hitler caused by that fact. Keep in mind there were privates too, not only officers. Keep in mind that not everybody was that educated to see what it means as a forecast. Keep in mind what happend to those being critical...

I guess anybody around the world who served in the army and had to swear on the flag can imagine in which bad condition some of these guys were.

Once again, do not get me wrong, but there are always two sides of a coin.

danasan

[IanC]

Looking at that image, I feel as if transported directly into the Reichskanzlei in Berlin in the 1940s.


And that is exactly the point of the image. It's a splashscreen in a sim where you play a Captain in the service of the Reich. In other words, it's part of the sim.
Maybe I'm really missing something here, dunno...

[sharkbit]

Nice post danasan.
I'm sure your father had some incredible stories.

:)

[danasan]

As I pointed out, i am somewhat older aged. We grew up with the collective fault. We (born after 1945 do not have).

I do not feel responsible for 39 - 45, and as long as dealing with history in a adequate way, we (germans) should be able to discuss things like that.

But there is still a minority here in Germany which is fed and or influenced by images like that, swastikas etc.

I have been in touch with youngsters, 16 years old, preaching the old story over and over again.

As long as somebody is able to abstact reality from fiction, like you and I can, it is OK.

Some guys here can' t so far...

[IanC]

As long as somebody is able to abstact reality from fiction, like you and I can, it is OK.
Some guys here can' t so far...

Yes of course. I'm not sure how anybody can cross the fiction of a computer sim with reality, but evidently some do.

[mookiemookie]

And that is exactly the point of the image. It's a splashscreen in a sim where you play a Captain in the service of the Reich. In other words, it's part of the sim.
Maybe I'm really missing something here, dunno...

I agree. Not really seeing how this is much different than earning medals, or wearing German uniforms or what have you. It's all part of the atmosphere and (ugh, I hate this word) IMMERSION of the sim.

And back on topic. A short clip of some stock footage of a U-boat crew returning to base with all the smiles and flowers and whatnot, with a voiceover of exactly what that screen said would make a far far better ending than what's there.

[danasan]

And back on topic. A short clip of some stock footage of a U-boat crew returning to base with all the smiles and flowers and whatnot, with a voiceover of exactly what that screen said would make a far far better ending than what's there.

I agree with you. Returning to base like you said, would be great. There is nothing wrong with the uniforms and stuff.

What I am talking about regarding the image is the symbolism in it.

Even in the German UBI forums there are a few comments by unteachables mistreating other county's folk as a race of ...(there might be no translation for that). Not that much, but... It is a criminal case here. I asked the moderator two months ago for that. And they gave it to the lawyers.

I could give you an example, but it is in german language.

danasan

[Ducimus]

What I am talking about regarding the image is the symbolism in it.


That is exactly what im complaining about. The symbolism in it is huge, and It crosses a line from historical representation to glorification. Thats my final stance on the subject of that image, im tired of talking about it.

[mookiemookie]

That is exactly what im complaining about. The symbolism in it is huge, and It crosses a line from historical representation to glorification.

Yeah but is it a simulation game depicting the glorification of the uboatwaffe, or is the game itself making the statement? I'm inclined to believe the former.

[danasan]

Thank you, Ducimus. That is what I mean. No more, no less.

Edith: It is OK anywhere in the world, but not here in Germany, as long as there is a breed of neo********rs here.

danasan

[danasan]

Nice post danasan.
I'm sure your father had some incredible stories.

:)

Well, people torn apart by a single handgranate; parts of them hanging in trees like fruits. Executions in Poland, Russia. I was able to track back some facts on the net, but because of privacy, I won' t link to that.

danasan

[elanaiba]

Id never argue against the swaztika being displayed in game. Thats historical context. That flowery imagery though, crosses the line from representation, to glorification, and i will always maintain it is in POOR TASTE because of it. Your artist should have been more mindful.

Edit: I have half a mind to to post pictures of holocost victims to remind people what the swaztika stands for. :nope:

I get your point. Don't blame the artist, blame my intention (yes, I did give him the exact propaganda picture you had in mind as example).

I will think about this more, I cant say I agree - the opposite seems to be be to have a game where you tell the people to sink this or that and in the end you wash your hands to be politically correct.

[kylania]

Problem solved: http://www.filefront.com/16208687/AlternateEndingScreen.zip/

Replaced the previously mentioned campaign ending screens with this one instead:

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/1213/armistice.jpg

Btw, this image was the "Armistice" ending image that shipped with the game.

[danasan]

Well, kylania

that is awsome. Nothing to complain about. I remember once ending my campaign in May 1945 with an XXI in Flensburg.

As there were many boats scuttled here in Flensburg Bay: The guys went home as good as they were able to. No mooring at all, just leaving the boat. As I was talking to Mr. Zierk (former served on U - 81 (Guggenberger)) then on U - 370 ( a VII C) scuttled in Gelting Bay in May 45. "We took nothing with us but our lives"

http://www.uboat.net/boats/u370.htm

http://www.ubootwaffe.net/crews/crews.cgi?surname=;nquery=;pagenum=2;uquery=1;ship query=;boatnum=81;ship=;dquery=;month=;day=;year=; bquery=


What you offer here is much more than I could expect after ramming the quais in that narrow harbour in Flensburg. (Which it is still nowadays)...

danasan

[Ducimus]

I get your point. Don't blame the artist, blame my intention (yes, I did give him the exact propaganda picture you had in mind as example).

I will think about this more, I cant say I agree - the opposite seems to be be to have a game where you tell the people to sink this or that and in the end you wash your hands to be politically correct.

And i understand the other end of the argument. Not displaying swaztika's and similar items is like whitewashing history, making things look like something they're not, and is equally disgusting.

There's a balance to be achieved between the two i think. The one picture is on the far end of the scale though.

[Carotio]

But there is still a minority here in Germany which is fed and or influenced by images like that, swastikas etc.

I have been in touch with youngsters, 16 years old, preaching the old story over and over again.

As long as somebody is able to abstact reality from fiction, like you and I can, it is OK.

Some guys here can' t so far...

Last year, I have met a Romanian guy, whom I actually liked untill a while ago, when we by chance started to talk history and then it turns out he doesn't believe in holocaust having taken place in that big scale as it did. And he is a university student for Christ sake and should know better.
The revisionist theory is slowly but steadily spreading, and therefore we must make sure to keep enlighten the young people to avoid the history to repeat itself, but sadly I'm afraid it ultimately will...
Glorifying the Nazi regime in a video game aimed for the young casual players are not exactly helping in that regard. Most of us elder simulation freaks can see the difference, but I think such an image does glorify the regime in the eyes of a young boy, so an alternative screen would have been in order.
EDIT: the image from Kylania up there seems like a much better image.

[Platapus]

[QUOTE=Faamecanic;1369095] I do agree there is no need for the swastika as it was a symbol of evil.

/QUOTE]

The swastika is not a symbol of evil. The swastika is an ancient symbol of good luck.

Among its other names, it is also called a sun wheel, fylfot, and in Germany the Hakenkreuz hooked cross.

The Nazi party did not originate the swastika, but adopted it as their symbol because it did have a long history of being a good luck or righteous symbol.

The fact that bad people used the swastika as a misplaced symbol, does not adversely reflect on the symbol, but on the people.


I do have to admit some surprise when I was in South Korea and I saw swastikas on some of the buildings.
Don't hate the symbol, hate the people who misused the symbol. :yep:

[captainprid]

This is ridiculous! To imagine that a kid who played SHV, had the concentration to complete it and actually got to the end screen would suddenly, because of one image, shave his head, buy a pair of Doc Martens and start Sieg Heiling in the mirror is like saying the same kid who saw a McDonalds advert would become a food fiend overnight.

[Noren]

True, the swastika was an ancient symbol from India but we have to put it in contemporary international context. It is close related to the nazi regime and therefore banned. It amazes me that neo-nazism is growing, when ww2 happened just 65 years ago.

Im glad that Germany has taken the truth about the holocoust to heart and continue to showcase concentrationcamps and Im just as glad that info about the holocoust is mandatory in primary shool in my country, Sweden.
If we dont learn from history, mankind will just repeat it.

[captainprid]

Gawd i'm off to do myself in with my noose of piety and razor blade of self-satisfaction. While i'm at it, i'm going to stop calling myself English because of Glencoe...you know just incase people get the wrong idea

[karamazovnew]

Last year, I have met a Romanian guy, whom I actually liked untill a while ago, when we by chance started to talk history and then it turns out he doesn't believe in holocaust having taken place in that big scale as it did. And he is a university student for Christ sake and should know better.

EDIT: the image from Kylania up there seems like a much better image.

I wonder what his reaction would be like if he learned about OUR (I mean, the Romanian) involvement in the Holocaust. Can anyone here spell D-E-N-I-A-L? :D Well, I'll reserve my current rant to your old friend.

The current problem with the Holocaust is that it takes a good BBC made movie about it to remind us that the piles of bodies were actually bodies of people. It's too "clean" in a messy way. It's too far back. They didn't have Internet or IPods back then so we've lost touch with them. Why should anyone care if it was 10 mil, 6 or even 1 million? How could anyone care about the extent of it all during all that maddness? It's like watching the news for an updated body-count on the latest earthquake. 2000 only? Bleah... I expected more from a 7.2...

The Nazis and the Holocaust have been lifted on such high ground after the war that all sense of reality about it has been lost. It's like the perfect crime story, a story to scare children at night. It's sort'of like Jesus (in the opposite way, of course), too inhuman, too high to be touched or repeated. So we feel safe from it... How many other Holocausts have we seen since then? Cambodgia was in my book a much more "messy" affair. What about Zair and Somalia? Heck, I'd take my chances with an SS officer instead of a Khmere Rouge any day...

There's no war, I repeat that, NO war without people suffering and having their lives destroyed. If it's a gas chamber or a bullet in the head, it's the same deal. You loose your home, your family, your friends, your life. Even if you do survive, you still loose everything you regarded as "your life" and "yourself".
Holocausts have happened since 45, and will continue to do so, in times of war AND peace. We still don't care **** about things that happen to others. But hey.. we shed a fake tear about the poor jews that died in the bad old Holocaust.

Well, here's one for you: she survived but her parents didn't. She was 6 at that time (1942).

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42852000/jpg/_42852499_girl_203300.jpg


So let's imagine that she hadn't survived. What would've been the total then? 1,000,001? or 6,000,001? Or maybe even 6,000,002... She might've looked pretty small in this picture, you probably wouldn't even notice her:

http://sherryx.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/holocaust00.jpg

The point is, we're ready to do it all over again. We've been doing it since then anyway. A lesson lost in the heat of the Cold War.

PS: sorry for the rant, and btw, how did we get from the SH5 ending pics to this? Damn Holocaust, ruins all the fun in a game.

[robbo180265]

This is ridiculous! To imagine that a kid who played SHV, had the concentration to complete it and actually got to the end screen would suddenly, because of one image, shave his head, buy a pair of Doc Martens and start Sieg Heiling in the mirror is like saying the same kid who saw a McDonalds advert would become a food fiend overnight.

I'm with you on this one - this has been blown completely out of proportion.

For God's sake we're all adults here , I'm so sick of do-gooders telling me what I can and can't play/watch etc etc.

Reality check - it's an end screen in a computer game - it's not a call to arms for the Nazi party. If you don't like it , change it. Kyliana has posted a mod to enable you to do just that.

And just to show how stupid this is - we've gone from a game end scene, to photo's of the holocaust in one thread.

[LiveGoat]

What's chilling about that pic that Karamazov posted is that from across the room it looks like an abstract painting.

[Sgtmonkeynads]

Huh, I have not finished the game yet, so do I have to wait till then to try to annex my nieghbors yard, you know , for the greater glory ?

I will wait to be outraged untill they release
" Sid Miers, Trains - Germany 1939-1945 edition " now that would cause a controversy.

Come on, games don't cause kids to go out and do things, it's just a copeing device they use after words to figure out why they did it, while bad parenting and bad school systems get another pass.

[captainprid]

In hindsight I have realised my other posts were wrong, I think Ubisoft have a moral obligation to start regional support groups wherever the game is sold. They could be called "PotEntial NazI's anonymouS" or "PENIS" for short and would involve weaning people away from potential National Socialism to just socialism.
At these meetings kids who have been exposed to the evil of the sequences in the game can be given gluten free biscuits and ethically sustainable Orange Juice while being encouraged to cry and talk about their fears in an open and non-judgemental environment.
Ubisoft meanwhile, should be forced to give 3/4 of their total profits to be split equally between holocaust rememberance funds and Joseph Stalin's rehabilitaion in to main stream society fund............


Oh and for guys from countries that don't understand it, this is called sarcasm! ;)

[Carotio]

I'm with you on this one - this has been blown completely out of proportion.

For God's sake we're all adults here , I'm so sick of do-gooders telling me what I can and can't play/watch etc etc.

Reality check - it's an end screen in a computer game - it's not a call to arms for the Nazi party. If you don't like it , change it. Kyliana has posted a mod to enable you to do just that.

And just to show how stupid this is - we've gone from a game end scene, to photo's of the holocaust in one thread.

Well, one thing is a mod, which is fine in itself, but the company who made the official version is the one sending out the signal by having created such a nazi glorifying image. Don't forget that Ubisoft had to pull out the copies from Germany because some swastikas unintentionally was left inside the game. Germany has laws against nazi symbols for a reason. So it ain't exactly stupid. History can easily repeat itself, if we as mankind don't watch out and inform the youth. That's why the official version counts as a mistake, which should never have been made. Whatever the mod community then does afterwards is another matter.

[danasan]

Moin Moin again,

I personally do not blame any computer game to lead guys running amok.

I personally prefer accurate flags for being historically correct. I can't imagine a stock version of Bismarck running the Denmark strait...

I can put on all the flags in my computer game I want. BUT: I am not allowed to. Not even in my private rooms here in Germany. It is a special case here, maybe in Austria as well. Showing these items anybody else could lead to an investigation by our Verfassungsschutz.

We are still running all these reports on history channel dealing with Hitler. All aspects are shown as close as possible from nowadays point of view. Honestly, there must be some kind of "aura" around that.A lot of people might be influenced by this "aura".

You can still see and feel this "aura" in some places here. During my time in the army I was sent to Sonthofen (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generaloberst-Beck-Kaserne). The dining room is one of the largest anyway. It is 109 m long. That is somewhat 330 ft. You could park two DDs in it. There are some images (http://www.bunker-kundschafter.de/Burg11.jpg) available. Very impressive.

Back to topic:

The image we were talking about is fine. No problem with that outside Germany.

danasan

[severniae]

Well, one thing is a mod, which is fine in itself, but the company who made the official version is the one sending out the signal by having created such a nazi glorifying image. Don't forget that Ubisoft had to pull out the copies from Germany because some swastikas unintentionally was left inside the game. Germany has laws against nazi symbols for a reason. So it ain't exactly stupid. History can easily repeat itself, if we as mankind don't watch out and inform the youth. That's why the official version counts as a mistake, which should never have been made. Whatever the mod community then does afterwards is another matter.

I'm sorry, but this is just getting silly. Do people really believe that one picture in a game is going to incite mass NAZIism? I fully agree that lessons must be learnt from the past, that's exactly why during my education I clearly remember being shown NAZI propaganda images and videos of parades and the like, and then talking about and analyzing them. Funnily enough, over 15 years later and none of my old school friends have since gone and joined a neo-nazi group, or started rounding up and killing jews!

You don't stop history from repeating itself by covering up every bad image from the past with a lovely little photo of some cute puppies dancing under a rainbow in a cloud of fairy dust!

[Faamecanic]

It is well known Donitz was a Nazi and loyal to Hitler. He would not have received the promotions he did during the war if he was not.

That does not mean however that every Nazi/Nazi supporter supported every facet of nazi ideology, including the extermination of the Jewish people (although I seriously doubt every high ranking member of the Wehrmacht were as ignorant of the "Final Solution" during the war as they later claimed :rolleyes:).

Probably the best judgement on Donitz was rendered by his peers, the Allied admirals who fought against him, who were against his being tried as a war criminal since they were of the opinion that he had fought a tough, but clean naval war.

Back to the game, there has always been a dichotomy inherent in playing any type of realistic simulation. You can despise a particular regime, while still admiring their military prowess from a strictly professional viewpoint. The U.S. Army studied the German campaigns on the OstFront for years to get tips on how to beat the Soviets.

I despise both Hitler's and Stalin's regime, yet have no problem commanding German or Soviet pixeltruppen in CMBB, IL-2, SH5, et al. The purpose of a simulation for me is to recreate the what if factor, what would I do as commander in a particular situation, how could I do better than the real commander, who I command, whether Nazis, Soviets, Japanese, Americans, British, Canadians, Israelis, Syrians, Egyptians, Guerilla irregulars, et al. has little relevance, it is the intellectual challenge which is interesting.

Right... agree 100%...we were saying the same thing, but in a different way. Doenitz "says" he had NO knowledge of "the final solution" until he saw an article in the Stars and Stripes the day he surrendered and was arrested. Is that true....only he knows.

I do know that the US Navy leadership does not know EVERYTHING the US Army leadership has in works at the Pentagon. So it is possible the KM did not know.... although I find that hard to believe.

[Faamecanic]

As I pointed out, i am somewhat older aged. We grew up with the collective fault. We (born after 1945 do not have).

I do not feel responsible for 39 - 45, and as long as dealing with history in a adequate way, we (germans) should be able to discuss things like that.

But there is still a minority here in Germany which is fed and or influenced by images like that, swastikas etc.

I have been in touch with youngsters, 16 years old, preaching the old story over and over again.

As long as somebody is able to abstact reality from fiction, like you and I can, it is OK.

Some guys here can' t so far...

Good post.....

I myself spent 6 years in Germany (back in the early 90's) and one area that Germany woke up to was you had to teach about Hitler and what happened during WWII. Its not the swastika that makes evil (after all isnt it a Hindu religous symbol that Hitler bastardized). Its ignorance.....

All my German friends (two of which were in the army) that were my age (40 now) were keenly aware of what happened.

Not a single one then golrified nazism...and actually were quite fearful that something could happen like that again. Especially as the Berlin Wall fell and East Germans and Polish were coming over to West Germany...and a lot of resentment built up, and with that feelings of hatred. To the point where we walked by an appartment used to house impovrished Polish people, and there was a swastika on the wall and "Polen Raus!" painted underneath. My friends were more than disgusted by this....

Like you stated ...its all about reality and fiction. Saying that the closing image from the game is horrible and evil and should be removed because it may make some young person a nazi, is like saying the Discovery channel/History/Military channel should never play "World At War" or some other documentary because it shows Nazi's.

While I was in Germany I took a tour of Dachau.... the worst tour I have ever been on. I took LOTS of pictures....and as my children have grown up I have made SURE to show them the pictures (when they were old enough) just so the could SEE the evil men are capable of and to question what leaders say and not blindly follow. I also showed them pictures of the coloseum in Nuremburg that was supposed to last 1,000 years (the time Hitler said his empire would last).... not because I wanted to glorify Hitler...but because it was history.

[Yak]

I honestly expected a scripted final mission with a thinly veiled copy of the Das Boot ending, only your boat doesn't get off under-sea rock shelf.
The End.

[robbo180265]

Good post.....

I myself spent 6 years in Germany (back in the early 90's) and one area that Germany woke up to was you had to teach about Hitler and what happened during WWII. Its not the swastika that makes evil (after all isnt it a Hindu religous symbol that Hitler bastardized). Its ignorance.....

All my German friends (two of which were in the army) that were my age (40 now) were keenly aware of what happened.

Not a single one then golrified nazism...and actually were quite fearful that something could happen like that again. Especially as the Berlin Wall fell and East Germans and Polish were coming over to West Germany...and a lot of resentment built up, and with that feelings of hatred. To the point where we walked by an appartment used to house impovrished Polish people, and there was a swastika on the wall and "Polen Raus!" painted underneath. My friends were more than disgusted by this....

Like you stated ...its all about reality and fiction. Saying that the closing image from the game is horrible and evil and should be removed because it may make some young person a nazi, is like saying the Discovery channel/History/Military channel should never play "World At War" or some other documentary because it shows Nazi's.

While I was in Germany I took a tour of Dachau.... the worst tour I have ever been on. I took LOTS of pictures....and as my children have grown up I have made SURE to show them the pictures (when they were old enough) just so the could SEE the evil men are capable of and to question what leaders say and not blindly follow. I also showed them pictures of the coloseum in Nuremburg that was supposed to last 1,000 years (the time Hitler said his empire would last).... not because I wanted to glorify Hitler...but because it was history.

Excellent post:up:

Just because I've now seen the end screen (containing a U Boat , 3 flags and an eagle) I will not be running out and voting BNP , nor will I start reading the Daily Mail or watch the fox network (well maybe Fox now and again)

The whole point is that these issues are subjective. What one person sees in something is not the same as another. If you don't like it - don't do it, But don't tell me I can't do it or we will fall out!

[robbo180265]

Well, one thing is a mod, which is fine in itself, but the company who made the official version is the one sending out the signal by having created such a nazi glorifying image. Don't forget that Ubisoft had to pull out the copies from Germany because some swastikas unintentionally was left inside the game. Germany has laws against nazi symbols for a reason. So it ain't exactly stupid. History can easily repeat itself, if we as mankind don't watch out and inform the youth. That's why the official version counts as a mistake, which should never have been made. Whatever the mod community then does afterwards is another matter.

I'm sorry - you may see it as Nazi Glorification, I don't. All I see is an ending screen in a game. I see a U Boat , 3 flags and an eagle. It does not make me want to join a neo nazi party - nor does it make me want to persecute minorities. If it offends you then mod it out using Kylania's mod. But don't presume to tell me how it affects me.

[Ducimus]

Well, one thing is a mod, which is fine in itself, but the company who made the official version is the one sending out the signal by having created such a nazi glorifying image. .

THIS.

[Ducimus]

I swear, some people must be incredibly blind, or totally ignorant of propaganda, or what message can be conveyed through the proper use of artistic rendering. If anyone else here can remember back to the arts and humanities lectures you had to suffer through in college.......

First, lets uncensor the end screen shall we?
(Excuse the quick edit in MSPaint)
http://www.ducimus.net/sh5/unedited.jpg

And here is an evaluation of this composition.

1.) There is great emphasis on the flags, occupying the back ground, and center stage. Not one flag, but THREE of them. Adding more emphasis to the symbology.

2.) The reich eagle in the foreground. It can only be the reich eagle, and it is symbology that is occuping the fore ground.

3.) The uboat, in the middle, is being wrapped in the above symbology. Keep in mind that symbols are representive of an idea, or ideaology. The uboat, is in effect, being blanketed in the symbols of the ideology of the 3rd reich. This is called propaganda. Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position. This is political in nature

4.) The context of the message smacks of negationism. Together, in conjunction with all of the symbolism, it is depicting the 3rd reich in a favorable light.

5.) The composition, and theme of the overall picture is a carbon copy of Nazi propaganda posters.

6.) The flowery rose petals shower, indicating heroic" and triumphant over the existing symbolism. I would say, this is to infer that the 3rd reich is valient, heroic, and victorious.

Here are some other posters that infer similar themes.
http://www.ducimus.net/sh5/prop1.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh5/prop2.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh5/prop3.jpg
(this one should look familiar)
http://www.ducimus.net/sh5/prop4.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh5/prop5.jpg


Now, things like the swaztika should be displayed... in historical context. To do otherwise is to whitewash history. But it should be displayed nothing more then the flag that happened to be flying at the time. But there is a line between historical depiction, and glorification, and the end game screen crosses that line in its artistic composition, excessive use of symbolism, and inference of a valiant and heroic 3rd reich at sea.

Under no circumstances should the 3rd reich, in any manner, be displayed in a favorable light. Individual heroism certainly, but not collectively as a whole as that one end game screen does.

Considering it is part of an official release, it can be construed as an endorsement of the ideolgy behind the symbology considering how it is being depicted and displayed. I cannot fathom how some people cannot understand that.

[IanC]

I swear, some people must be incredibly blind, or totally ignorant of propaganda, or what message can be conveyed through the proper use of artistic rendering. If anyone else here can remember back to the arts and humanities lectures you had to suffer through in college.......

I cannot fathom how some people cannot understand that.

Please stop talking down to people who don't agree with you, thinking they don't understand. We all understand that the game image looks just like propaganda posters of the day. It's suppose to look like one.

Now the only question is: Is Ubisoft promoting Nazims by depicting a 40's German propaganda poster in a sim where you play a 40's German U-boat captain?

I say of course not. Anybody who makes that leap between fiction and reality needs to get his head checked. Video games is the least of his problems.
I agree with a previous poster, this is getting more than ridiculous.

[LeBabouin]

http://tof.canardpc.com/preview2/6494e21b-af12-4704-b542-32e74bafdbc1.jpg (http://tof.canardpc.com/view/6494e21b-af12-4704-b542-32e74bafdbc1.jpg)

This picture is far from any nazi propaganda or glorification. Germany has lost both WW's, even those of the 19th century, so I can't see how it could be glorified. This picture is just a poor cartoonesque imitation of the propaganda style shown in Ducimus last post. It has no text, no soul, a bad composition, ugly colours, and is far from Leny Riefensthal's work. Kylania's replacement picture is good but reminds me more of a trawler arriving at port after a fishing campain.
The videos of the old proud U-Boot captains are much more indecent. Plus I think those who focus on the nazi carnage should have a look on what's happening everywhere nowaday.

[captainprid]

While I understand there are two points of view here, both of which are polarised and quite clearly without reconciliation. I really object to be told what to think. The points of view which think that the image is just part of a game and does not in anyway incite people to the rallying cry of fascism have been measured and have just clearly stated their opinion. Whereas, the "anti-screenshot" opinions seem to be quite condescending; although they make their point eloquently and quite persuasively, they seem to seek to prove others wrong rather than make their point of view and let others decide.

I have never lived under a totalitarian regime, thankfully, I have lived a free life. But the only reason I have been able to do that is because both of my Grandfathers were killed fighting for that right. One died on the Burma railway, the other was a Czech pilot. Both died to give me the right to form my own opinion. I also have an honours degree in history so I find it a little irritating that people think my opinion is one of ignorance

[RocketDog]

Opinions will vary, but I think Ducimus is 100% right on this one. It's another "what were they thinking" moment. The problem is that it's presenting a heroic image of Nazi Germany without any context. It's either profoundly stupid or profoundly sly. I suspect they were just stupid.

Cheers,

RD.

[Thunder]

Please stop talking down to people who don't agree with you, thinking they don't understand. We all understand that the game image looks just like propaganda posters of the day. It's suppose to look like one.

Now the only question is: Is Ubisoft promoting Nazims by depicting a 40's German propaganda poster in a sim where you play a 40's German U-boat captain?

I say of course not. Anybody who makes that leap between fiction and reality needs to get his head checked. Video games is the least of his problems.
I agree with a previous poster, this is getting more than ridiculous.


:up:+1

[captainprid]

How can it be without context?? The very next screen shows a sub dead and broken on the sea bed?? I can't think of a better context

[Ducimus]

Anybody who makes that leap between fiction and reality needs to get his head checked.

I would say the same of the quite a number of people that are so enamored with a fictional romance, that myth is accepted as fact, and anything that even remotely tarnish's the fantasy is outright rejected.

[kylania]

Opinions will vary, but I think Ducimus is 100% right on this one. It's another "what were they thinking" moment. The problem is that it's presenting a heroic image of Nazi Germany without any context. It's either profoundly stupid or profoundly sly. I suspect they were just stupid.


Why do you feel it's without any context? The picture is the "victory" splash scene of a WWII U-boat simulation game. You only see it if you "win the game". It's entirely in context within that situation.

[Jimbuna]

I'm starting to get the urge to look for my popcorn stash FFS!!!!!! :nope:

[Ducimus]

I'm starting to get the urge to look for my popcorn stash FFS!!!!!! :nope:

I'm done arguing. The more i talk about this subject, the more pissed off i get. A few people can understand why that one end game pic is way out of line . Others can't. Whatever, in the end, this place is still fantasy land.

[captainprid]

You have your own opinion. It DOES NOT make it right and I fully understand your point of view and I fully understand mine and many others but understanding and agreeing are two very different things.

Why is your opinion more valid than mine and why because it is your opinion does it make it correct??

[Nisgeis]

This picture is far from any nazi propaganda or glorification. Germany has lost both WW's, even those of the 19th century, so I can't see how it could be glorified. This picture is just a poor cartoonesque imitation of the propaganda style shown in Ducimus last post. It has no text, no soul, a bad composition, ugly colours, and is far from Leny Riefensthal's work. Kylania's replacement picture is good but reminds me more of a trawler arriving at port after a fishing campain.

To the layman it looks fairly close to the original in terms of style, colour and composition, but the Nazi propoganda posters don't look that familiar to me, so I woudn't notice the smaller details. There are differences on the eagle, but it's pretty similar.

The videos of the old proud U-Boot captains are much more indecent. Plus I think those who focus on the nazi carnage should have a look on what's happening everywhere nowaday.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the videos being more indecent?

[Jankowski]

FFS it is a flag!

but of course you are going to say: but it symbolises evil!

and i will say: would htlers reigiem have been evil had there been no killing?? did the u-boat arm do any killing of jews?? why is it called a holocaust if there are millions of survivors? why did originally nazis hate jews? why is israel the most evil country (apart from US) in the world right now?

im just saying the jews arnt as innocent as you think they are. look what israel does.

and anyone bagging out the soviet union SHUT THE **** UP! america is 10 times worse then it? what country formed the taliban? what country invades 3rd world countrys to steal thier oil? just go and think a bit before you start saying the soviet union was evil. what happened to the soviet union during the war is over. america was just jealous of how good the soviet union was, and then traitors came.

what country has the most population of hobos and unemployed people?

so you americans who think your country is the best, go look at the facts first. germany fought for thier country, and that is now considered bad. in a hundred years when china invades, america will be known as a very evil country. the stars and stripes will become a prohibited symbol, just like the hieken kruez is now.

[mobucks]

hahaha the stars and stripes replacing the swastica damn it feels good to be an american!

in a hundred years when china invades? in a hundred years america will be the only country left! we need all that oil to steamroll the rest of the world!


PS: this thread makes me wonder why the history (blatant propaganda channel) channel always has Nazi shows on. I alternate between refering to it as the propaganda channel or the hitler channel nowadays.

[robbo180265]

I'm sorry - you may see it as Nazi Glorification, I don't. All I see is an ending screen in a game. I see a U Boat , 3 flags and an eagle. It does not make me want to join a neo nazi party - nor does it make me want to persecute minorities. If it offends you then mod it out using Kylania's mod. But don't presume to tell me how it affects me.

THIS^^^

[Subnuts]

and i will say: would htlers reigiem have been evil had there been no killing??
Well, he would have just squashed everyone's freedom and reduced everyone in Germany brainwashed pawns, and everyone who wasn't Aryan would have been reduced to second-class citizens, but besides that, I guess the Nazis would have been hunky-dory.

did the u-boat arm do any killing of jews??
Of course not. German torpedoes used only the most potent Gentile-killing explosives.

why is it called a holocaust if there are millions of survivors?
Why did the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre called a "massacre" when less than one percent of the campus's population was actually killed?

why did originally nazis hate jews?
I don't know...because they were racist ****bags?

why is israel the most evil country (apart from US) in the world right now?
Yeah, I don't like the way the Israels and Americans gun down unarmed protestors in the streets, send entire families into Gulags, lash women to death in public for the crime of being raped, and starve to death political dissidents.

im just saying the jews arnt as innocent as you think they are. look what israel does.
Yeah. Just look at it. CAN'T YOU SEE?

and anyone bagging out the soviet union SHUT THE **** UP!
Every single one of those 60 million Russians who died under Joseph Stalin had it coming. Who needs an officer corp, anyway?

america is 10 times worse then it?
100 times worse. A million times worse.

what country invades 3rd world countrys to steal thier oil?
Like when Nazi Germany invaded the Ukraine in 1942, or Japan in the first months of the Pacific War?

america was just jealous of how good the soviet union was, and then traitors came.
We were especially jealous of their paranoid police state, crumbling infrastructure, and the fact that they couldn't feed themselves despite 1/5th of their population being involved in agriculture.

what country has the most population of hobos and unemployed people?
Certainly not China!

germany fought for thier country, and that is now considered bad.
Yes, killing 12 million people for their race, religious beliefs, political affiliation, or disabilities is considered "bad" in this politically correct modern world. Invading other nations without provocation is "bad."

in a hundred years when china invades, america will be known as a very evil country. the stars and stripes will become a prohibited symbol, just like the hieken kruez is now.
And our new Chinese textbooks will include chapters on their heroic struggle against Tibetan oppression, the kindly leadership of Chairman Mao, and thought-provoking essays on the evils of democracy, right?

[robbo180265]

Perhaps this will help (shamelessly stolen from Father Ted)

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w181/robbo180265/reality.gif

[LukeFF]

and i will say: would htlers reigiem have been evil had there been no killing?? did the u-boat arm do any killing of jews?? why is it called a holocaust if there are millions of survivors? why did originally nazis hate jews? why is israel the most evil country (apart from US) in the world right now?

im just saying the jews arnt as innocent as you think they are. look what israel does.

and anyone bagging out the soviet union SHUT THE **** UP! america is 10 times worse then it? what country formed the taliban? what country invades 3rd world countrys to steal thier oil? just go and think a bit before you start saying the soviet union was evil. what happened to the soviet union during the war is over. america was just jealous of how good the soviet union was, and then traitors came.

what country has the most population of hobos and unemployed people?

so you americans who think your country is the best, go look at the facts first. germany fought for thier country, and that is now considered bad. in a hundred years when china invades, america will be known as a very evil country. the stars and stripes will become a prohibited symbol, just like the hieken kruez is now.

Nice to know we have antisemites and America-haters among the forum denizens here. :yawn:

[captainprid]

FFS it is a flag!

but of course you are going to say: but it symbolises evil!

and i will say: would htlers reigiem have been evil had there been no killing?? did the u-boat arm do any killing of jews?? why is it called a holocaust if there are millions of survivors? why did originally nazis hate jews? why is israel the most evil country (apart from US) in the world right now?

im just saying the jews arnt as innocent as you think they are. look what israel does.

and anyone bagging out the soviet union SHUT THE **** UP! america is 10 times worse then it? what country formed the taliban? what country invades 3rd world countrys to steal thier oil? just go and think a bit before you start saying the soviet union was evil. what happened to the soviet union during the war is over. america was just jealous of how good the soviet union was, and then traitors came.

what country has the most population of hobos and unemployed people?

so you americans who think your country is the best, go look at the facts first. germany fought for thier country, and that is now considered bad. in a hundred years when china invades, america will be known as a very evil country. the stars and stripes will become a prohibited symbol, just like the hieken kruez is now.

That is an absolutely outrageous slur!! How on Earth can you compare America to Nazi Germany and the USSR?? Sure since the terrorist attacks, freedom appears to have taken the odd knock here and there but I don't see Uncle Sam dragging Ma & Pa Rubenstein off to death camps.
Sure Yanks can be jingoistic and proud of their Country but so what! Good for them. I wish us Brits were more like them, well more like we used to be. Nowadays, everyone over here seems so ashamed of our past; sure we did some pretty crappy things over the years but what Country hasn't? But we also did many more good things, like give the World democracy, the very same democracy that Jankowski puts to such excellent use in his disgraceful, racist rant

[Sgtmonkeynads]

Opps. I'm sorry I thought this was the SubSim Radio Room.


You know, I have fought with people for years, while playing Sh. They don't understand that you can play a freaking game and not have the same thoughts as the caracters you play. I've been called a NAZI before while playing in public, but I never would have thought that this topic would come up here of all places.

Stir the Pot = War Crimes are only Crimes If You Loose The War.

[McBeck]

OK....I suggest you calm down. The discussion was clean, but has turned for the bad over the last 2 pages.

Get back on topic

[Jankowski]

dont judge the soviet union on what stalin did.

god americans make me sick with thier so called patriotism and lies.

look at the media, they make it look like america won the 2ww. iwonder who raised the flag over hitlers bunker, or fought all the way from stalingrad?

im not saying the nazis where all good, just saying that DONT JUDGE THEM ON WHAT THEY DID BECAUSE YOU WHERE NOT THERE AND SO YOU WOULDNT KNOW. YOU ONLY KNOW WHAT AS BEEN WRITEN IN HISTORY BOOKS, AND AS YOU KNOW, THE VICTORS ALWAYS WRITE THE HISTORY.

[Ducimus]

FFS it is a flag!

but of course you are going to say: but it symbolises evil!

and i will say: would htlers reigiem have been evil had there been no killing?? did the u-boat arm do any killing of jews?? why is it called a holocaust if there are millions of survivors? why did originally nazis hate jews? why is israel the most evil country (apart from US) in the world right now?

im just saying the jews arnt as innocent as you think they are. look what israel does.

and anyone bagging out the soviet union SHUT THE **** UP! america is 10 times worse then it? what country formed the taliban? what country invades 3rd world countrys to steal thier oil? just go and think a bit before you start saying the soviet union was evil. what happened to the soviet union during the war is over. america was just jealous of how good the soviet union was, and then traitors came.

what country has the most population of hobos and unemployed people?

so you americans who think your country is the best, go look at the facts first. germany fought for thier country, and that is now considered bad. in a hundred years when china invades, america will be known as a very evil country. the stars and stripes will become a prohibited symbol, just like the hieken kruez is now.


http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/NaziSig.jpg

--

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/2109/signaturet.jpg


Stay classy subsim, stay classy.

[captainprid]

dont judge the soviet union on what stalin did.

god americans make me sick with thier so called patriotism and lies.

look at the media, they make it look like america won the 2ww. iwonder who raised the flag over hitlers bunker, or fought all the way from stalingrad?

im not saying the nazis where all good, just saying that DONT JUDGE THEM ON WHAT THEY DID BECAUSE YOU WHERE NOT THERE AND SO YOU WOULDNT KNOW. YOU ONLY KNOW WHAT AS BEEN WRITEN IN HISTORY BOOKS, AND AS YOU KNOW, THE VICTORS ALWAYS WRITE THE HISTORY.


Sorry mate you are a disgrace for saying that. I don't mind being sent to the brig for saying this. The Soviets raised the flag over the Reichstag because the Americans and Brits turned south whereas the Soviets were allowed to claim the prize of Berlin. Having said that, the British and Yanks didn't Rape half of Europe. Both Germany and Russia were ruled by stinking, disgusting totalitarian regimes. Coffee house Commissars like you who try to defend people like Stalin and Hitler make me want to puke.

You said "i'm not saying the Nazis were all good" this is the worst line I have ever read on this forum......The Nazis weren't good in anyway, shape or form. They destroyed an entire continent resulting in the deaths of tens of millions of people, the only good thing they ever did was shooting themselves to save us the cost of a trial all except the true cowards who didn't even have the guts to shoot themselves.

McBeck is right, this was a civilised discussion debating an important fact. It might have been a heated discussion but it was civilised, that is until you opened your mouth. Views like that have no part in civilised society

[kylania]

Stay classy subsim, stay classy.

You do realize you're the only one actually posting real Nazi images, right? For someone so offended by them, you sure do have a lot of them ready to post.

[McBeck]

OK...sorry, but you were warned