America's rankings in things

[Torvald Von Mansee]

http://miscellanea.wellingtongrey.net/2008/10/26/were-not-number-one/

Somewhat depressing. Though I think some of the things are sort of bullsh_tty (Iceland being #1 for renewable energy...well, they're on top of all the geothermal they could want, or Japan being #1 for Internet speed..well, they don't have wide open spaces to deal with, do they? Though American corporate greed can't be excused in this matter).

As some of the snarky commentators at the bottom of the page pointed out, we're #1 on military spending and obesity (though I'd like to see a source on that last one).

[GoldenRivet]

Though im sure his findings are accurate to some degree... i wouldnt bet that his findings are accurate to a high degree.

I mean a fair percentage of his "sources" are wikipedia.

wikipedia has been damned by about everyone as far as being a very reliable source of information.

in fact, you cant even use it as a source in a lot of colleges and universities.

just sayin

personally, i know America isnt #1 at anything except being America... and yes, she is falling from within like they all do.

You wont recognize her in another 20 years

[Dowly]

Well, Wiki articles usually give the source too. But yeh, I know what you mean, doesn't mean it's accurate or unchanged by someone. :hmmm:

[Tribesman]

(though I'd like to see a source on that last one).
Its a common one from the same source as most of the other stuff there, though as usual that source used another source and as it was only a partial list it was wrong.
So if you take the usual OECD list of their 30 states the US comes out as fattest, but if you add more countries then lots of little pacific island nations push the US down the list for obesity

[kiwi_2005]

Wow! Dowly would be proud i never knew Finland was that pro, if ya take a look at the list your see Finland is in the top 3 many times over. Damn Finland has one of the fastest internet speeds! lol

[Fincuan]

Finland #3 in internet speed and #1 in lack of corruption :har: Especially the corruption part, damn... If you only knew what's been going on lately. Just as an example the PM has been caught outright lying or just having a "bad memory day" times and times again. This has been going on for quite some time now, and yet the guy most likely remains in power until his already announced step-down sometime during the summer. Finland being Finland everyone is apparently too well off to do anything about the situation NOW, let alone having done something about it when the crisis started a few years ago. That is only the famous tip of the iceberg. Corruption here hasn't really reached the lower levels, ie. policemen, their commanders, "normal" civil servants and such, the guys and gals who do the groundwork. The politicians above them have on the other hand demonstrated several times that if the price is right they'll hear you.

Either that list needs a lot of fixing, or it's entirely correct and we'll have to be very very afraid of what happens in the countries placed below us :o

[August]

The general rule of thumb to follow with Wikipedia is the more controversial the topic the less likely it is to be accurate.

[SteamWake]

The general rule of thumb to follow with Wikipedia is the more controversial the topic the less likely it is to be accurate.

I would say this is probably 99.99% accurate.

[OneToughHerring]

Well #1 only has to be very slightly better then #2. Even if Finns have, say, good education, it has to matter somehow and give us an edge over others. I don't think that's actually happening. Fast Internet? Not me, sadly... And yes, corruption is ingrained into the system in a way that it's not registered as corruption.

Here's the obesity comparison. http://miscellanea.wellingtongrey.net/2007/05/06/global-obesity-fatness-by-country/

[tater]

We're number one in military for a number of reasons. Number 1 (lol) is that we are so that places like, say—Europe and Japan—don't have to be.

Life expectancy is a bogus statistic. The reporting methods and criteria vary from country to country. The US stats include infant mortality, for example. US infant mortality stats include preemies. Doesn't take many age 0 deaths to trash the average. Note that most countries set some time limit after birth for counting the deaths in life expectancy, and most all don't country preemies even in infant mortality stats.

Democracy? Huh? Clearly a bogus stat if we're not at the top someplace. What standard are they using? The definition should be the Constitution compared vs similar documents. No explicit separation of church and state? Get tot he end of the line, thanks.

Freedom of the press? Hello? Again, protected explicitly. Where is the lack of freedom? A BS stat, clearly.

Net speed? The population density of europe is something like 200+ per square km. Japan is ~338. The US—even if you don't count Alaska—is 34/km. This matters a LOT for MANY stats, internet connectivity being obvious. Low population density—VERY low—means it is far, far more costly to cover everyone. Other low density places like Australia probably suffer as well, but the middle of the US is perhaps more consistently populated.

Prison population? It's the price we pay for "diversity." Americans of Japanese descent are probably jailed at no higher a rate than they are back in Japan. Americans of European heritage... higher than Europe I'd bet, but not grossly higher (euro-american murder rates are about like Finland I think, maybe a little higher in deaths per 100,000).

Corruption? Again, how the hell is that defined per capita? Seems nonsense since the only possible acceptable measure would be convictions in a court of law, and higher convictions would measure lack of corruption, no?

Education? The US is 4% of the world's population, and we are 26% of the world's economy. What % of nobel prizes do we win, again? Not seeing it, sorry.

Mobile phones? See the net speed answer. Pop density. Again, I love to see us compared on this with a country the size of New Jersey with the population of Brooklyn.

Renewable energy? Who cares. Really? You'd not know it, but daily domestic US oil production is 8.3 million barrels. Saudi Arabia is 10.7 million as a reality check. We also have huge amounts of coal. Wish we had way more nukes, however. No excuse for that.

Scientific literacy? I'll buy that, but again, we still lead the world. How's that scientific literacy in iceland, denmark, and sweden doing for Scandinavian space flight, again? They simply must rule space being at the top of that list, right?

Quality of healthcare? Again, an entirely bogus statistic. Take the mortality rate of breast cancer in #1 France 21.5 the incidence is 91.9, the ratio is 23.4%. For the US that figure is 18.8%. Italy is 25.4%. Japan is 25.4% as well. Untreated breast cancer is fatal, so that stat measures nothing other than quality of care. Those stats include all Americans, too, regardless of insurance. ALL cancer stats look like this. The US is the best place on earth to be if you are actually sick, period. Beds per capita, etc, are meaningless nonsense. Also, we suffer from the same pop density issues above. If we had higher density, our numbers would be even better.

INfant survival? Again, bogus stat. The US aggressively delivers babies that are VERY short term. 21 weeks, etc. Those count in US stats, and do NOT count in other country's stats. Meaningless.

[TLAM Strike]

We're number one in military for a number of reasons. Number 1 (lol) is that we are so that places like, say—Europe and Japan—don't have to be. Yet we are relying more and more on our allied for support. The USN has almost no Mine Countermeasures vessels left. Only three are stationed in the Gulf on a permanent basis (of 14, the rest are in Japan or Cali), and they need to be carried in on a heavy lift ship.

The British are doing a great job in the NAG supporting US and Iraqi naval forces on ABBOT and KAOTT from RFA Cardigan Bay.

The US doesn't even have sufficient carrier escorts anymore, the Coast Guard is running ops with the CVNs now. Cutters don't have sufficient endurance at high speeds to keep up and need to refuel every couple of days.

[Tribesman]

Democracy? Huh? Clearly a bogus stat if we're not at the top someplace.
Remember that next time someone makes a claim about the evil government being undemocratic.

Prison population? It's the price we pay for "diversity."
Its the price you pay for populist nonsense.

[OneToughHerring]

tater,

are you like a US nationalist, if you don't mind me asking? If you notice both Fincuan and me are downplaying Finland's pretty good place in those stats, you on the other hand see it absolutely necessary to attack everything to defend US.

[Dowly]

^ This.

[TarJak]

Who gives a rats clacker to rankings anyway? Largely they are irrelevant lists made by people who like making lists. If they really meant something then we would need to take more notice of them.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Though im sure his findings are accurate to some degree... i wouldnt bet that his findings are accurate to a high degree.

I mean a fair percentage of his "sources" are wikipedia.

wikipedia has been damned by about everyone as far as being a very reliable source of information.


Um, you DO know you can go to wikipedia and look up the linked sources and look at those more reliable sources, don't you?

[Torvald Von Mansee]

I actually went to one of the sources (The Economist), and the "strongest democracy" thing is relative. One place might be slightly less democratic than another, but they're both about the same if labeled a "strong democracy" in the study.

[tater]

tater,

are you like a US nationalist, if you don't mind me asking? If you notice both Fincuan and me are downplaying Finland's pretty good place in those stats, you on the other hand see it absolutely necessary to attack everything to defend US.

I have no expectaion that the US should be at the very top of everything. I'd expect us to be more or less on par with the rest of the first world on most things, lower on others (violence, for example, as I said is the price of "diversity."). Every time you see such lists, however, they are constructed with an ANTI-American bias such that we're at the bottom. One healthcare list that looked like this down ranked countries for not having 100% socialized care, for example. Nothing to do with actual outcomes, just was it socialized.

But some of those are clearly rubbish. Again, all the healthcare related stuff is entirely dependent on local methods of recording, and those methods are not the same country to country, so it's not enough to compare official stats. For healthcare, a metric needs to be used that is no confounded by other factors.

Top ten lists tell you nothing at all, was my point WRT the science one. Being at the top of some list that is arbitrarily ranked doesn't get you to the moon. Was meant to be funny, FWIW, I've owned 4 swedish cars (have family there, too), so I'm not down on Scandinavia, in fact I feel more at home poking it because I have family from there (grandmother was born there, dad even speaks a little he remembers from childhood).

[tater]

Remember that next time someone makes a claim about the evil government being undemocratic.

That the populace is heavily involved in politics—on either side—is proof of its vitality. I never begrudged protests against presidents I was in favor of. That's the American way. I will certainly attack the protesters—with rhetoric—that's also my right (duty, really).


Its the price you pay for populist nonsense.

Explain. Be specific.

Populism has exactly nothing to do with US violence. US violence is disproportionately done by a few minority groups—and mostly against themselves. The demographics are very clear, sorry. It's not that being in a certain race pigeon hole makes you violent, race is meaningless in and of itself. It's a cultural thing. Blacks in the US are mostly born out of wedlock, for example. Something like 80% of births. Kids that never had a dad in the house are something like 900 times more likely to be convicted of a felony in their lifetime. THAT is the problem. I don't know how we fix that, it's quite sad since I think that every kid starts out with pretty equal chances based on his in born abilities (2 kids with equal smarts are equal, in other words, and "race" has squat to do with that).

"Populism" has nothing to do with it.

[OneToughHerring]

tater,

so you're one of those 'white power'-people then?

[Tribesman]

That the populace is heavily involved in politics—on either side—is proof of its vitality.
Yet day after day we get the same people complaining about the lack of democracy in America.
You can't have it both ways.

Explain. Be specific.

The level of your prison population is due to populist nonsense.

Populism has exactly nothing to do with US violence.
The statement was about the high level of incarceration in the US, not about violence. Though you can take the violence levels and wonder why countries with similar levels don't have similar prisoner numbers....that would come back to the populist nonsense again.

Tell you what though , two more of your statements struck me as hilariously detatched from reality.
Freedom of the press? Hello? Again, protected explicitly. Where is the lack of freedom? A BS stat, clearly.

Scientific literacy? I'll buy that, but again, we still lead the world. How's that scientific literacy in iceland, denmark, and sweden doing for Scandinavian space flight, again? They simply must rule space being at the top of that list, right?

All of which together the previous demontrates how funny your line about education is.

[tater]

tater,

so you're one of those 'white power'-people then?

What? :down:

I've said countless times race is a meaningless as a term to describe people.

There is without question a problem within some racial groups in the US (as self-identified). Not institutional racism which is largely gone (with the exception of racial preferences). A problem with racial groups that have cultural problems that hold them back.

Blacks on both sides of the aisle recognize that there are problems with crime and fatherlessness in their communities. It has been getting worse over the years. There is no "racial" reason (meaning something inbred, which would be patent nonsense) why they have an 80% illegitimate birth rate. It's not merely economics because other groups in the same income ranges have different levels. That leaves culture. Note that fatherlessness also contributes to lower economic status. MArried couples have higher family incomes.

Recognizing that some "races" have distinct problems in the USA is not being racist. It would be racist to say that they have these problems because of their race. I think it is culture—which is a choice, but a choice heavily skewed towards how one was brought up.

From a political standpoint, I tend to think it is largely a failure of the "great Society" socialism of LBJ. LBJ made it easier to make poor choices, and in fact created a sort of perpetual under class. It's sad, really. Conservative blacks agree with this, and get abused (with what are in effect racial epithets) for doing so. Liberal blacks also observe this fact, and call for change though, too (I remember Jesse Jackson doing so at some point and catching some flak).

[tater]

Yet day after day we get the same people complaining about the lack of democracy in America.
You can't have it both ways.

People can complain all they want. That doesn't change the fact of representative democracy in the US. Complaining that your representatives are not representing you, then doing something about it in the polling place IS democracy.


The level of your prison population is due to populist nonsense.

The statement was about the high level of incarceration in the US, not about violence. Though you can take the violence levels and wonder why countries with similar levels don't have similar prisoner numbers....that would come back to the populist nonsense again.

It's not populist nonsense. There is in fact more criminality here per capita. It has squat to do with populism. Something is criminal, and the justice system works and catches them. Large jail populations.

On a personal note, I'd change the drug laws in the US, as that is most of the US prison population.

I'm not seeing the populism, again, demonstrate the populism involved, that's what I meant about being specific, not just repeating that it's populism. Oh, wait, were you meaning to say what I just said above regarding drugs? If so, then you must say so—"populism in the US demands a "war on drugs" which massively increases the prison population." I'm not sure that that is a populist proposition, but that would at least be a specific example. Of course I cannot presume to know what you think the populism is, so perhaps I'm wrong.

If it is the drug issue, are there anti-drug laws in other countries that are less enforced, or do they legalize? In the former case, that's disturbing, I'd rather have all laws enforced, and dump bad laws, myself.

Tell you what though , two more of your statements struck me as hilariously detatched from reality.

All of which together the previous demontrates how funny your line about education is.

Explain why they are detached from reality? Are there idiots who want to teach magic instead of science in the US? Certainly. They are idiots. Are there large numbers of people who are scientifically illiterate? Yes, in all walks of life there are. Functionally, however, the US still manages to produce a huge number of scientific successes (my second point).

The reality is that it is the choice of many to be scientifically illiterate, mostly for religious reasons. Given the first Amendment, there is little we can do since religion and science tend towards mutual exclusivity. Again, I don;t think the US deserves bottom status, but I don't expect us to be at the top either since we'd likely come in at the top of a "religiousness" ranking.

BTW, it is clear that OP posted this as an attack on the US. If my response seemed "nationalist" it was in reply to an OP that was nationalist in favor of everyone else on earth over the US. I never claimed we were the top of the heap, and I would not since I think that ranking like that is absurd—it's like History Channel shows ranking the "top 10 subs of all time." Nonsense. Best you can do is say here is a list of historically significant designs, here are some technically significant designs, here's a list of the most tonnage per hull type, etc. Then you still get the "Type IX is superior to a Fleet Type" debate that rages endlessly ;)

[AngusJS]

Scientific literacy? I'll buy that, but again, we still lead the world. How's that scientific literacy in iceland, denmark, and sweden doing for Scandinavian space flight, again? They simply must rule space being at the top of that list, right?Where is the LHC again?

However, the guy who drew up the lists used acceptance of evolution to determine science literacy. While we are truly pathetic in that regard, there is more to science literacy than that.

Democracy? Huh? Clearly a bogus stat if we're not at the top someplace. What standard are they using? The definition should be the Constitution compared vs similar documents.IIRC, the Soviet Constitution of 1936 was the very picture of freedom and progress. Comparing founding documents is not a good idea.

The US is the best place on earth to be if you are actually sick, period.LOL. I just got a simple blood test done. The bill was 150 DOLLARS. If you are actually sick you'd better pray you have (good) insurance, otherwise you're screwed. All other 1st world countries, whose health care systems provide similar or better results for vastly reduced cost, must surely look upon us with envy. :roll:

But there is one thing we can be proud of. We are a world leader in number of executions! In fact, in 2008 we edged out Pakistan to get into 4th place, and left Iraq in the dust. USA! USA! :yeah:

[tater]

LOL. I just got a simple blood test done. The bill was 150 DOLLARS. If you are actually sick you're better pray you have (good) insurance, otherwise you're screwed. All other 1st world countries, whose health care systems provide similar or better results for vastly reduced cost, must surely look upon us with envy. :roll:

Similar results. Like many things, the curve indeed levels out at some point. Getting to 90% quality takes X effort, getting to 95% takes 3X effort, and getting to 99% takes 30X. (all made up, but you get the point).

The proper metric to rate healthcare quality (which was the claim) is to pick one that only measures quality of care actually delivered. Living, when the outcome untreated is death, is a great metric, since it is non-arbitrary.

Epidemiological statistics are usually listed as mortality or incidence per 100,000 population at large. So the mortality rates are not for those with the disease, but as a rate among other, healthy people. So to see the death rate for those WITH the condition, you need to look at incidence and compare the two.

You mention cost. $150 for a blood test. What does a blood test cost—actual cost for the outfit doing it? I have no idea. What does it cost retail under socialized care? Your post makes it seem like it's zero. It's not zero, it's just that you'd pay some as taxes, and someone ELSE would pay the rest.

Someone pays for all care, wherever you are. Some people prefer to pay their own way, others want to force their neighbors to pay for them at gunpoint.

Remember with healthcare that the vast majority of total, lifetime expense is incurred during the last months of life. Figures vary from 80-something to 90-something percent of total, lifetime costs.

All that care is ineffective—the patient dies. Defensive care is part of that stat, and estimates are that it might reduce by as much as 20-something % with tort reform, etc. Still, the bulk is aggressive care for terminal patients. The only way to cut costs is to ration.

Rationing makes sense—as long as the patient isn't YOU. That aggressive care might well only let you live 6 months, but what is that worth if you are a 35 year old mom wanting time to say goodbye to the kids? What about the 7-8% of such moms with breast cancer that don't die due to the aggressive treatment rationed away under socialized care? Trouble is that you have to spend the money on all of them to figure out who the 7-8% who will respond are.

That's a big issue. Much cancer care is empirical. You try something, and on most it might work only for a while, but on a FEW it effects a very positive result (if not a cure). The trick is that you don't know ahead of time, you have to try the incredibly expensive care on all of them to find the 1% that might respond.

Not cost-effective actuarially... great if you're the mom.

[Tribesman]

People can complain all they want. That doesn't change the fact of representative democracy in the US.
Tell that to the daily dose of citizens claiming they don't live in a democracy anymore.

It's not populist nonsense.
But it is, all the politicians pushing through populist policies to appease the screaming masses. Look at all the handy sound byte programs introduced to the penal system to prove how serious about being tough on crime they are. Its pointless pandering as well as being expensive and futile.

Something is criminal, and the justice system works and catches them. Large jail populations.

Yet other countries have justice systems that work , they catch the criminals...but they don't have such large jail populations though do they.

Explain why they are detached from reality? Are there idiots who want to teach magic instead of science in the US? Certainly. They are idiots. Are there large numbers of people who are scientifically illiterate? Yes, in all walks of life there are. Functionally, however, the US still manages to produce a huge number of scientific successes (my second point).

I wasn't going to go into the whole cretinism as science vein of things. You chose space flight, what has that really got to do with a measure of national scientific literacy?
Nothing.
But if you look at it it is a pretty bad example to choose if you want to wave the flag about how the achievements shine so far above other nations.
A quick run through the major space achievements wouldn't put the US as top dog in many categories would it, if you then look at its early breakthroughs and development they point to another continent entirely.

The other point there was freedom of the press, its fine for you to say its protected in the constitution, but we get a regular dose here of people saying the government has thrown the constitution away...and of course those that claim the media is some global conspiracy which obviously isn't conducive to freedom is it...unless its one of those nice global conspiracies with fluffy bunnies and pretty flowers.
Plus of course you said about the study being clearly BS.
So I wonder if you can tell me the specific episodes which got the US that rating on freedom of the press?
It was quite a good rating really as some earlier episodes had pushed the US further down the list in other years.
Which of course comes on to the education bit.Which could also be part of the scientific literacy bit too.
You appear to have gone off on unrelated tangents and seem to be rejecting things as they don't fit with your preconceptions without even viewing any evidence.

[tater]

The explanation of the press rating was not in the OP. I don't feel like hunting it down.

Do I think the press is biased? Yes, of course it is, all human endeavors are biased. the press is now, and has always been biased. That has nothing to do with FREEDOM of the press.

If no laws have been passed to muzzle the press, then the press is free, period.

Claims of bias, again, have nothing to do with freedom—they are free to be biased, that's in fact the POINT.

Regarding populism and crime, being tough on crime is certainly popular, but by all measures of actual crime, there is more here. I mentioned violence because the US murder rate is demonstrably far higher than Europe or Japan. Murder is not predominantly a crime of passion for the most part in the US (though it is for Americans of european descent), but a crime of criminals against other criminals. It is a general indicator of criminality. The US rate is something like 5.5:100,000 Europe is more like 1 or 2. The rate for all Americans is indeed higher, but the rate for certain minority groups is in fact over 20 per 100,000 (victims—but other stats show that the perp is usually of the same demographic). Literally 6 times higher.

That is the cause of higher incarceration rates—and the demand by all law abiding citizens to arrest them. Hard-working black families want criminals arrested at least as much as people living in less crime-ridden areas, probably more.

The only populist argument I can see are drug laws. I'm in the "let people screw themselves up all they like" camp. Zero tolerance on driving under the influence, but if they want to shoot up at home and die, so be it. (maybe make sure they get no care without cash up front at a hospital for an OD)

[OneToughHerring]

What? :down:Recognizing that some "races" have distinct problems in the USA is not being racist.

Nazis weren't racists either.

[Tribesman]

The explanation of the press rating was not in the OP. I don't feel like hunting it down.

Hunting it down?
There are only two major ones out each year, one by a group based in the States and one based in Europe. They are very widely used.
Both have given similar scores to the US and both penalised that score on the same basic episodes, episodes which funnily enough have been topics on this forum.

That has nothing to do with FREEDOM of the press.

OK you are having a Theodore moment.
Claims of bias, again, have nothing to do with freedom—they are free to be biased, that's in fact the POINT.

Yep a right old Kaczynski one.


A measure of freedom of the press has everything to do with freedom of the press.
If you thought about the measure maybe you would get it.
Previously the US got a bad rating on freedom of the press in relation to things like jailing journalists, censorship and orchestrating cover ups.
In this current one they do badly over a series of cover up and the futile attempt at censoring the expose of the cover ups.

BTWIf no laws have been passed to muzzle the press, then the press is free, period.

So lets take your governments annual reports which cover things like freedom of the press in other places
A country at random from the westen hemisphere
The law provides for freedom of speech and of the press; however......
It appears your government has rather different views than you do when it measures freedom of the press.


That is the cause of higher incarceration rates
No it isn't , the cause of higher incarceration rates is simply putting more people in jail and keeping them in there longer.

and the demand by all law abiding citizens to arrest them.
Oh look a word, so what does "arrest" mean?

Now if you look at the last section you wrotecan find a mention of one of those populist measures that has simply got out of hand . If you don't spot it first time I will be generous and give you two more tries.

[Fish]

What does it cost retail under socialized care? .

Last year, 35 euro.

[tater]

So 35 Euro is the unsubsidized cost of a blood test? Take the total cost for the blood lab, divide by the number of tests done, and the answer is 35? Or is it subsidized?

Hard to tell when it's not a business since they hide stuff.

[tater]

I looked at freedomhouse.org, for example. Exact methodology was hard to find.

Censorship is only censorship when exercised by the government. What examples are you referring to? There was no shortage of anti-Bush coverage, anti-war coverage, etc. None at all. Where is the censorship? Given the internet, the claims of censorship are even odder, since we can read most of the press worldwide. Self-censorship, while annoying (think Danish cartoons, here) is not real censorship as it is voluntary.

Sorry, while there are some countries with real limits on what they can see, I think the West in general is not different enough to distinguish from one state to another.

Regarding prison, it is not just incarcerating more people, we have more crimes in the US per capita. Again, look at the murder rates. 5.5 vs anywhere from <1.0 to maybe 2 in Europe. 2.5 to 5 times higher. So I'd expect our incarceration rates to be at least 2.5 to 5 times higher. The average incarceration rate for the EU looks to be just shy of 150 (wiki). The US on that chart is 700. That's 4.66 times higher. Almost exactly the same multiple as our murder rate is.

Since our murder rate is driven by specific minority groups (interestingly, again, by about the same 5X multiple), as is virtually all other crime (save "white collar" crime) that is indeed the cause of our higher incarceration rate.

It shows a real issue to be dealt with better—integration of minorities.

<EDIT>
OK, I looked at the entry listed for the RSF/RWB index. Yawn. A survey. Meaning it is in fact entirely subjective. It needs to be done using real data that shos conclusive evidence of suppression of the press. For example how many journalists were tried in court for publishing a story against the government, or how many were arrested without trial. These sound like the types of idiots who might claim excuses like crap we often hear about—"a chilling effect." BS, if writing a story doesn't get you thrown in jail, the press is free. How many bloggers have been arrested in the US—and every range of BS hateful stuff has been blogged on BOTH sides of the aisle? That's right, none.

Creationists can send out surveys and show that the US is more scientifically literate because there are more creation science (ROFLOL) people here, too. It'd still be subjective nonsense.

It's likely the fact I'm a science geek by training, but I like to see hard numbers for stuff like this, not anecdote.

[OneToughHerring]

Net speed? The population density of europe is something like 200+ per square km. Japan is ~338. The US—even if you don't count Alaska—is 34/km. This matters a LOT for MANY stats, internet connectivity being obvious. Low population density—VERY low—means it is far, far more costly to cover everyone. Other low density places like Australia probably suffer as well, but the middle of the US is perhaps more consistently populated.
...
Mobile phones? See the net speed answer. Pop density. Again, I love to see us compared on this with a country the size of New Jersey with the population of Brooklyn.

Finland has a population density of 16/sq. km.

[August]

Finland has a population density of 16/sq. km.

And the US state of Wyoming has a density of 2.08/sq. km. Try getting broadband to everyone there!

[tater]

Finland has a population density of 16/sq. km.

Yeah, and the population of Brooklyn plus Queens.

The difference is that the 300,000,000 in the US, while concentrated on the coasts, are also spread throughout the middle of the country more evenly—at densities well below the 31/km^2 US average.

Finland is 338,000 km^2. About the size of my State of New Mexico (pop density 6.27/km^2). Your population is 2.5X higher than NM's overall. OTOH, like NM, I imagine most people probably live in a couple dense areas, with much of the rest being open space where almost no one lives.

Net access in most of Albuquerque—where about 50% of the population lives—is quite good. It's the other 99% of the area of the state where it gets dicey. Wireless is also tricky because of mountains.

It's not a simple relationship of population density, but cost. Spreading broadband over huge areas with very low densities is incredibly expensive, for virtually no payoff since they are not allowed to charge more for the rural customers.

The average density I posted was just a rough indicator of the differences involved.

[OneToughHerring]

And the US state of Wyoming has a density of 2.08/sq. km. Try getting broadband to everyone there!

Well the population of Wyoming isn't necessarily that sparsely distributed, in fact they mostly live in the bigger cities. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a7/Wyoming_population_map.png)This is true in Finland too although I would say to a lesser degree. Finland has always been quite rural, meaning a large part of population is in fact spread out throughout the country. This means the Internet really has to cover the whole country and not just the bigger cities.

[August]

Well the population of Wyoming isn't necessarily that sparsely distributed, in fact they mostly live in the bigger cities. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a7/Wyoming_population_map.png)This is true in Finland too although I would say to a lesser degree. Finland has always been quite rural, meaning a large part of population is in fact spread out throughout the country. This means the Internet really has to cover the whole country and not just the bigger cities.

Oh I wasn't arguing with you.

FWIW there are no bigger cities in Wyoming. Even their biggest, Cheyenne would only be considered a medium size town in most places.

[OneToughHerring]

Freedom of the press? Hello? Again, protected explicitly. Where is the lack of freedom? A BS stat, clearly.

Well not necessarily. I can't find the statistics that were used to compile the list in OP but even I know a thing or two about this. In the US there is no body that would arbitrate conflicts concerning the media. This means that even small conflicts concerning, say, libel issues will go to the courts. This usually means (in the US at least) astronomical costs no matter what the outcome.

What is the result of this? Will the media write more responsibly when they know that any single little mistake will take them into the courts and possibly ruin the entire media house? I doubt it. It will most likely just create a toothless media that is unable to really put people like the politicians etc. to the spot. Politicians and the super rich will basically be outside the reach of any criticism from the media.

And all this without even going into things such as organised crime etc. which is quite significant in the States compared to Europe.

[tater]

That's nonsense, though—the courts are exactly where such arbitration should happen. Any other body is political. At least with a jury you have a fair shake. Attacking politicians happens all the time without libel being thrown around. Forcing the press to be responsible isn't bad, either, though. If they can prove it enough to publish, they can in court. It's not like US juries are shy when faced with attacking big wigs.

Without concrete examples, and stats to back up the claim of a chilling effect, I think such a subjective ranking is nonsense. I'd say the same if the US was on top, too. Most of those rankings are like I said, very much like "best submarine of all time" rankings. Nonsense.

The only purpose of OP was to attack the US with nonsense rankings.

Some can be stated more precisely like % with broadband, but again, it doesn't including factors that make two countries dissimilar in ways that make even coverage so very difficult. So I don't doubt some of the rankings, but I think they don't tell us much.

WRT healthcare, in some legitimate metrics, even corrected for geographical issues like population density, the US falls short. We are desperately short of docs and nurses, for example. Travel time to medical care is clearly another geographical problem since docs need to be concentrated (no one wants to be on call 24/7/365). None the less, when you look at outcomes for diseases that are fatal if untreated, the US is either on top, or very near the top for every single one—looked at with population at large, so that even includes the "uninsured."

Regardless, such rankings are usually not actually valuable for anything—except trolling internet forums, perhaps.

[Onkel Neal]

We're #1 in overall awesomeness :D

[OneToughHerring]

That's nonsense, though. Attacking politicians happens all the time without libel being thrown around.

That's just like, your opinion, man. What I wrote is true and you can check it yourself. Here's more info (http://en.rsf.org/spip.php?page=classement&id_rubrique=1001).

Forcing the press to be responsible isn't bad, either, though. If they can prove it enough to publish, they can in court. It's not like US juries are shy when faced with attacking big wigs.I'd like to see some proof about that in the form of statistics of wealthy vs. non-wealthy defendants getting sentenced in US courts.

Going back to your initial comments.

We're number one in military for a number of reasons. Number 1 (lol) is that we are so that places like, say—Europe and Japan—don't have to be.Well I and the vast majority of Finnish men have completed our military service and if the US is somehow helping us then the method and amount of this help is completely evading my knowledge. Maybe you would care to specify the nature of this help?


Life expectancy is a bogus statistic. The reporting methods and criteria vary from country to country. The US stats include infant mortality, for example. US infant mortality stats include preemies. Doesn't take many age 0 deaths to trash the average. Note that most countries set some time limit after birth for counting the deaths in life expectancy, and most all don't country preemies even in infant mortality stats.And the other countries stats don't include this?

Democracy? Huh? Clearly a bogus stat if we're not at the top someplace. What standard are they using? The definition should be the Constitution compared vs similar documents. No explicit separation of church and state? Get tot he end of the line, thanks.Here's the link to the source of the information used I think. Finland isn't perfect either, we have problems in the same department as the US does, in the Political participation - part.

http://a330.g.akamai.net/7/330/25828/20081021185552/graphics.eiu.com/PDF/Democracy%20Index%202008.pdf

Prison population? It's the price we pay for "diversity." Americans of Japanese descent are probably jailed at no higher a rate than they are back in Japan. Americans of European heritage... higher than Europe I'd bet, but not grossly higher (euro-american murder rates are about like Finland I think, maybe a little higher in deaths per 100,000).So you don't think of the US as one single nation? Then you should make note of this. You should also deal with the legacy of the slavery issue that's still kind of lingering in your country. Oh and I hear the native Americans aren't too happy either.

Also to use the prisons as free labour force for the industry isn't too nice either. And the death penalty issue.

Corruption? Again, how the hell is that defined per capita? Seems nonsense since the only possible acceptable measure would be convictions in a court of law, and higher convictions would measure lack of corruption, no?Well here's some info (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_index), the sources at the bottom of the page. Don't feel bad, you're on the same level as UK. :)

Education? The US is 4% of the world's population, and we are 26% of the world's economy. What % of nobel prizes do we win, again? Not seeing it, sorry.How many of your Nobel prize winners were actually educated in the States? Nazis at one time ruled much of the world, they did it by force, not brains. Not very ethical method if you ask me.


Renewable energy? Who cares. Really? You'd not know it, but daily domestic US oil production is 8.3 million barrels. Saudi Arabia is 10.7 million as a reality check. We also have huge amounts of coal. Wish we had way more nukes, however. No excuse for that.The issue of renevable energy is a big issue already today and increasingly so in the future. The US can stay ignorant about it but it will only bite them in the ass in the long run.


Scientific literacy? I'll buy that, but again, we still lead the world. How's that scientific literacy in iceland, denmark, and sweden doing for Scandinavian space flight, again? They simply must rule space being at the top of that list, right?A lot of space technology used in the European space flights and also at the International space station is actually from Finland and other Scandinavian nations.

INfant survival? Again, bogus stat. The US aggressively delivers babies that are VERY short term. 21 weeks, etc. Those count in US stats, and do NOT count in other country's stats. Meaningless.Yes but if you deliver them badly and kill them in the process they don't count.

[tater]

I illuminated much of that later.

The health stats are nonsense. RANKINGS are nonsense.

The military? The US operates an all ocean navy. If Finland cannot project force anywhere on Earth as needed, they don't fill the role we do. SOMEONE has to do it (and had to during the Cold War). I was in general thinking of NATO, and the US defense spending vs the EU.

I looked at the RSF link. That's what I looked at before. Subjective nonsense. I am concerned only with reporters here. I'm not overly concerned about reporters arrested in combat zones aiding the enemy. I'm not retroactively concerned with German reporters killing during WW2, either. <shrug>

Regarding life expectancy stats, NO, not all countries report the same way. Most have arbitrary limitations on when a baby "counts" towards that stat. It varies country to country, so you cannot compare stats between countries, only within. Meaning that you can look at improvements in life expectancy within a country year to year, but a comparison with another is not certain to be reliable. This is true of most health-related statistics, BTW. There is little standardization in reporting. Perhaps this will change with more EMR (electronic medical records). Of course old charts are often not entered as data, but just scanned as images (PITA to deal with).

[OneToughHerring]

If the US is no.1 in obesity and other related so called diseases of a rich country, then I see no reason why the mortality rate in US shouldn't be what it is. People are dying of coronaries and all kinds of similar conditions in the US and these deaths are just skyrocketing in the future with the prevalence of childhood obesity etc.

[Tribesman]

Given the internet, the claims of censorship are even odder, since we can read most of the press worldwide.
Which is why the I described the recent attempt as futile.
BS, if writing a story doesn't get you thrown in jail, the press is free.
Wow. Thats why the US got a lower score the other year isn't it .:up:

The average incarceration rate for the EU looks to be just shy of 150
What is it if you use only the western nations and remove the countries that are recently emerging from rather bankrupt totalitarian dictatorships?
Actually since you have that thing about correlating the murder rates to incarceration rates even though most of your prison population over there is due to non-violent crime. Can you look at some of those emerging eastern european countries and peruse their murder rates?

[OneToughHerring]

The military? The US operates an all ocean navy. If Finland cannot project force anywhere on Earth as needed, they don't fill the role we do. SOMEONE has to do it (and had to during the Cold War). I was in general thinking of NATO, and the US defense spending vs the EU.

Why would we want to project any force anywhere other then the borders of our nation? We're not into the whole 'enslaving the natives'-thing.

But anyway, the US doesn't help Finland in any way. Good that we at least got that part settled.

[AVGWarhawk]

Why would we want to project any force anywhere other then the borders of our nation? We're not into the whole 'enslaving the natives'-thing.

But anyway, the US doesn't help Finland in any way. Good that we at least got that part settled.


Are ya sure?

http://www.dhs.gov/ynews/releases/pr_1268857871775.shtm

[OneToughHerring]

Are ya sure?

http://www.dhs.gov/ynews/releases/pr_1268857871775.shtm

How exactly does that help Finland? Looks like your just trying to extend your failed fascist system abroad and into Finland.

[AVGWarhawk]

How exactly does that help Finland? Looks like your just trying to extend your failed fascist system abroad and into Finland.


Looks like the Finns accepted it. :O:

[OneToughHerring]

Looks like the Finns accepted it. :O:

Holmlund is a very unpopular right-wing minister, I wouldn't rely on her decisions holding up too far into the future given how badly the right-wing government has conducted things throughout it's existence. Come next election, which is just around the corner, and this will be erased. :O::O:

Besides, the article only mentions "“Close collaboration with our international partners is critical to ensuring the safety and security of the American people,", not the safety and security of Finnish people. So this measure doesn't even attempt to help the Finns in any way.

[Happy Times]

Holmlund is a very unpopular right-wing minister, I wouldn't rely on her decisions holding up too far into the future given how badly the right-wing government has conducted things throughout it's existence. Come next election, which is just around the corner, and this will be erased. :O::O:

Besides, the article only mentions "“Close collaboration with our international partners is critical to ensuring the safety and security of the American people,", not the safety and security of Finnish people. So this measure doesn't even attempt to help the Finns in any way.

Hah, the right wing is headed for a victory in the next election.
The only competition is what party in the right will be the biggest.

And about Finland not getting help from the US you are wrong in ways you dont know about.
This goes vice versa tough.
Finland has long opted for strong bilateral ties with US in intelligence and military.

[OneToughHerring]

Hah, the right wing is headed for a victory in the next election.
The only competition is what party in the right will be the biggest.

And about Finland not getting help from the US you are wrong in ways you dont know about.
This goes vice versa tough.
Finland has long opted for strong bilateral ties with US in intelligence and military.

Doesn't look too good now for the right, it's been a one disaster after another for the right. Holmlund, that enabler of US-inspired school shootings, can kiss her seat goodbye.

The way the coffins are coming back from Afghanistan I wouldn't exactly call it particularily strong. It's a failed war and just a question of how failed it will be.

[AVGWarhawk]

Holmlund is a very unpopular right-wing minister, I wouldn't rely on her decisions holding up too far into the future given how badly the right-wing government has conducted things throughout it's existence. Come next election, which is just around the corner, and this will be erased. :O::O:



We say the same about Obama :O:



Besides, the article only mentions "“Close collaboration with our international partners is critical to ensuring the safety and security of the American people,", not the safety and security of Finnish people. So this measure doesn't even attempt to help the Finns in any way.


Sure.....:shifty:

No matter...the US beat your hockey team :O:

I'm just having fun with you OTH. :DL

[Happy Times]

Doesn't look too good now for the right, it's been a one disaster after another for the right. Holmlund, that enabler of US-inspired school shootings, can kiss her seat goodbye.

The way the coffins are coming back from Afghanistan I wouldn't exactly call it particularily strong. It's a failed war and just a question of how failed it will be.

Im no fan of Holmlund but how has she enabled school shootings?
By not outlawing all firearms?
That must be your dream but it will not happen.
Even if it did, those guns are going to be hidden.
Most gun owners wont give up their property over some hysterical and populistic policy by any goverment.

I dont consider Afganistan the most important part in US and Finnish relations.

[OneToughHerring]

Im no fan of Holmlund but how has she enabled school shootings?
By not outlawing all firearms?
That must be your dream but it will not happen.
Even if it did, those guns are going to be hidden.
Most gun owners wont give up their property over some hysterical and populistic policy by any goverment.

I dont consider Afganistan the most important part in US and Finnish relations.

School shootings are your dream come true.
The war in Afghanistan is already lost and Finland will continue to pay the price for US's wars.

[TLAM Strike]

Scientific literacy? I'll buy that, but again, we still lead the world. How's that scientific literacy in iceland, denmark, and sweden doing for Scandinavian space flight, again? They simply must rule space being at the top of that list, right?

Apparently they are doing awesome! Looks like they have a Death Star and everything! :o

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/2903/spaceviking.jpg (http://img7.imageshack.us/i/spaceviking.jpg/)

:haha:

[August]

School shootings are your dream come true.
The war in Afghanistan is already lost and Finland will continue to pay the price for US's wars.

Oh come on OTH, tell us where the bad American touched you...

[Happy Times]

Oh come on OTH, tell us where the bad American touched you...

Thanks August, my coffee landed to my keyboard.:haha:

[AngusJS]

Life expectancy is a bogus statistic. The reporting methods and criteria vary from country to country. The US stats include infant mortality, for example. US infant mortality stats include preemies. Doesn't take many age 0 deaths to trash the average. Note that most countries set some time limit after birth for counting the deaths in life expectancy, and most all don't country preemies even in infant mortality stats.Well, according to the footnote for "Infant Mortality" in the OECD stats (http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=CSP2008) that were used to make those lists,

In several countries, such as in the United States, Canada, Japan and the Nordic countries, very premature babies with relatively low odds of survival are registered as live birthsIf we look at infant mortality and life expectancy at birth for those countries, we get:

Life Expectancy at Birth

Japan 82.1
Iceland 81.2
Sweden 80.6
Canada 80.2
Norway 80.1
Finland 78.9
Denmark 77.9

US 77.8


Infant Mortality per 1000 Live Births

Iceland 2.3
Sweden 2.4
Japan 2.8
Finland 3.0
Norway 3.1
Denmark 4.4
Canada 5.4

US 6.8

[OneToughHerring]

Oh come on OTH, tell us where the bad American touched you...

I'm for freedom of speech, aren't you?

[Dowly]

Wow! Dowly would be proud i never knew Finland was that pro, if ya take a look at the list your see Finland is in the top 3 many times over. Damn Finland has one of the fastest internet speeds! lol

Don't need statistics to be proud of my country. :salute:

[August]

I'm for freedom of speech, aren't you?


:har::haha::rotfl2:

[Dowly]

OTH likes to disagree on anything. If I say poo smells like poo, he comes in and says it smells like roses. :O:

[OneToughHerring]

OTH likes to disagree on anything. If I say poo smells like poo, he comes in and says it smells like roses. :O:

Are you saying Americans are the only people who can disagree about things? The rest of the planet should be all "Yessa massa"? :har:

[August]

Are you saying Americans are the only people who can disagree about things? The rest of the planet should be all "Yessa massa"? :har:

I disagree.

[Dowly]

Are you saying Americans are the only people who can disagree about things? The rest of the planet should be all "Yessa massa"? :har:

No, not at all. I'm not very pro-America myself either. Just my observation, you do seem to, at times, disagree just for the sake of disagreeing. Altho, I can be wrong and maybe you truly think otherwise, I don't know you well enough to make that call.

[OneToughHerring]

No, not at all. I'm not very pro-America myself either. Just my observation, you do seem to, at times, disagree just for the sake of disagreeing. Altho, I can be wrong and maybe you truly think otherwise, I don't know you well enough to make that call.

Are you saying there is some kind of consensus and a set of issues here in Subsim GT that people should follow? "Don't disagree too often"?

I'm sorry but you certainly don't have enough iron in your neck to tell me what to do or what to think.

[Dowly]

Are you saying there is some kind of consensus and a set of issues here in Subsim GT that people should follow? Don't disagree too often?

Now now, don't try to make it look like I'm forcing you to behave some way. Like I said, from my observations, you tend to sometimes disagree just to cause fuzz. I also said that I can be wrong about that. This is purely how I feel and see it.

[AVGWarhawk]

Just say, "Huh?" :O:

[OneToughHerring]

Now now, don't try to make it look like I'm forcing you to behave some way. Like I said, from my observations, you tend to sometimes disagree just to cause fuzz. I also said that I can be wrong about that. This is purely how I feel and see it.

You've certainly got that Finnish "excuse me because I exist"-mentality down. :haha: But don't expect others to be like you.

[AVGWarhawk]

You've certainly got that Finnish "excuse me because I exist"-mentality down. :haha: But don't expect others to be like you.


To be sure, Dowly makes no excuses. :03:

[August]

To be sure, Dowly makes no excuses. :03:

Nor does he need to.