Taking the next step

[dfscott]

After finding things too easy with all the automatic targeting, I decided to give it a go without all the help. I turned off automatic targeting and the WO, but left map targets on. I then picked up Wazoo's Manual Charting and Targeting Manual and heading out for a patrol with the settings on "hard" (except for the event camera -- it's just too much fun not to watch).

After patrolling my area for almost 36 hours and finding nothing but enemy aircraft and neutral merchants, I'm heading back to port and manage to stumble on an enemy cargo ship coming straight at me at about 9 knots. However, I discovered that by the time he was close enough to ID, I hardly had any time left to calculate his speed before he was on me. Luckily, I saved as soon as I got the contact (just trying to learn here -- not normally a restore-retry type of guy) So, a quick restore and I try again. This time, I set up for a broadside shot first and come to a dead stop about 500m off his course. Next, I calculate the speed using the hydrophone instead of waiting until he hit visual range. Finally, when he's close, I quickly ID him (yeah, I knew what he was from last time, but I'm trying to learn how to do it right), grab his range (really tough since it's storming and he's rolling all over the place), and take the shot right as he crosses my bow.. Two solid hits, one under the stack and the other close to the bow, but he refuses to go down. I spin and take an aft shot, which amazingly also hits since I just eyeballed the AOB and bearing, but he still won't sink! Now he's zig-zagging all over and I'm having to improvise. Every time I think I have a solution, he zigs and I have to start over. I eventually try to guess his zigs and zags, but it's not very effective.

6(!) more torpedoes later, including 3 misses behind the target, 1 early explosion and 2 duds that hit solidly, but just sunk (hmm.. maybe I forgot to change the trigger to impact?), I'm starting to get a little frustrated. And just to add insult to injury, it was storming outside so I couldn't even put use the deck gun to finish her off!

So, here's my questions:

1) After I ID my ship, set the range, and click the checkbox on the note pad (that supposedly sends the info to the TDC), the notepad itself blanks out. Is that correct? Is that simulating tearing off the piece of paper and handing it over to the TDC station? I was trying to get range and AOB into the notepad and then just dial in the speed from the TDC console -- does that work?

2) Do I need to make two passes -- one to ID the ship and another to set up my run? Or is this something you just get better (faster) at over time so that you can do it all at once? I ask because it says to use the 3-minute rule, and take at least 3 points. Seeing as how I'm supposed to be at full stop (if I understand Wazoo's instructions correctly), keeping a 9 kt merchant in visual range for that long seems challenging.

3) Wazoo's instructions talk about turning manual targeting on and off. But whenever I turn it off to dial in the speed, AOB, or range, as soon as I turn it back on again, the dials seem to jump back to whatever they want -- it's like it's picking up info from the attack scope or something. I guess I just don't have a good grasp yet of what I need to do and in which order.

4) Finally, is Wazoo's still the best way for a newbie to transition to manual targeting in stock SH3? I noticed a lot of the links are broken, so I'm wondering if it's still the best method, whether the mods he mentions are available or not (I was able to dig up most of them with a little detective work, actually)?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[Flopper]

I play with map contacts off, and with super mods only, but still, here's an extremely abbreviated version of a typical single target attack:

First i get an initial bearing and range, so I can mark the target on the map. I'm way too far away for a flag ID at this point.

Then i id the target and get the speed, usually using fixed wire.

Then a few minutes later, I'll get another range and bearing, and mark the target on the map again. Now I've got a rough course. I'll usually start the stopwatch and another range/bearing in 3:15 to check the target's speed again.

Meanwhile, i'm heading parallel to the target's course to get in front of him, and preferrably set up a 90 degree shot. If I can manage that, no need to worry with range and aob.

If for some reason I can't manage the 90 degree shot, then I should already have his bearing and speed, i'll take a quick range, and the last thing I do is get the aob, and (don't forget that final id to determine nationality) fire.

You need to be careful... if you are locked onto the target, the bearing is going to change automatically.

Not saying all this is the best, but it's the approach I take, and again, very abbreviated.

Also, there are tons of threads out there on this topic... here's one:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=167201

[maillemaker]

1) After I ID my ship, set the range, and click the checkbox on the note pad (that supposedly sends the info to the TDC), the notepad itself blanks out. Is that correct? Is that simulating tearing off the piece of paper and handing it over to the TDC station? I was trying to get range and AOB into the notepad and then just dial in the speed from the TDC console -- does that work?

2) Do I need to make two passes -- one to ID the ship and another to set up my run? Or is this something you just get better (faster) at over time so that you can do it all at once? I ask because it says to use the 3-minute rule, and take at least 3 points. Seeing as how I'm supposed to be at full stop (if I understand Wazoo's instructions correctly), keeping a 9 kt merchant in visual range for that long seems challenging.

I do not use the notepad, nor do I use the 3:15 rule. I use fixed wire.

Fixed wire does not care about range to target. All it needs is a good ship ID (to determine ship length) and time.

Fixed Wire:

1) Point sub and scope at 000 heading just in front of target ship. As nose of target ship crosses vertical reticule, start stopwatch. As tail of target ship crosses vertical reticule, stop stopwatch.

2) ID target ship in recognition manual to determine ship length.

3) Determine target speed using this formula:

(Ship length in meters * 1.94) / time in seconds

4) Turn sub to intercept target track at 90 degrees.

5) Go to TDC. Turn on manual input. Set AoB to 90 degrees port or starboard, depending on which side of the target you are. Dial in speed as calculated above. Turn off TDC.

6) Go to scope. Turn scope until gyro angle reads 000.

7) Go back to TDC. Turn on manual input. Tweak AoB back to 90. Turn off TDC.

8) Go back to scope. Tweak scope until gyro angle reads 000. Go back to TDC and confirm it is still set to 90. If not, repeat 7-8.

9) Open outer doors. When desired portions of target cross vertical reticule, fire torpedoes.

[pickinthebanjo]

Those first two hits sound like they were solid hits, (below waterline?) If you are in no danger of being attacked just wait it out. Ships take a while to sink sometimes, you have to factor flooding into the mix.

In reality (and in GWX3) some ships would take hours to sink. After the initial torpedo wait at least 20min and see if she's almost under, if not hit it again.

[dfscott]

Thanks for the hints and the forum links. I also just read that mag torps in stormy weather can be flakey as well, so that might have been part of the problem.

And I've never heard about fixed wire either, so I'll definitely give that a shot. I generally try to take my shots around 500m, so I'm thinking that getting an exact speed isn't quite as critical.

[toodrunk]

The fixed wire method also works for any bearing as long as you're stopped, or moving very slowly (1 knottish).

Like maillemaker says, you start the timer as soon as the bow crosses the vertical portion, and stop as soon as the bow passes.

This will work as long as you know where the center of the bow and stern are. The more directly he's pointed at (or away) you, the more difficult it can be to determine where those points actually are.

[xptical]

Speaking of taking the next step, can someone offer advice on what to check next?

The first likely option is called "no weapon officer assistance".

The second is "manual targeting system".


Can anyone expand on which of these I should enable next? Or is it a "jump in with both feet" kinda thing?

[pickinthebanjo]

Speaking of taking the next step, can someone offer advice on what to check next?

The first likely option is called "no weapon officer assistance".

The second is "manual targeting system".


Can anyone expand on which of these I should enable next? Or is it a "jump in with both feet" kinda thing?

Personally I started with everything turned off except the external cam, it took me ages to learn but it's rewarding. For those that have toruble gathering the Range, Speed and AOB, a good GUI can do wonders.

I recently looked thoroughly for one that does not conflict to badly with the new interiors mod but went back to OLC GUI because I can come up with a good solution in less than one minute.

[AgentToreno]

Yes, I believe you can use the range/AOB from the notepad with a speed dialed into the TDC. I use data from both stations as well, I get my AOB and speed from charting, and range from the notepad.

As for ID, I usually do that once I'm already in firing position. If it's neutral, then no harm no foul. If it's enemy, then you're already in position to take them out.

And about Wazoo's instructions for turning off the TDC:
This keeps your gyroangle calibrated to the scope, which *should* start to automatically produce a perfect 90 degree AOB once the target nears your firing cone. Of course this only applies if you're already on the intercept course. This is why Wazoo mentions getting the target speed dialed in early. Because turning on/off the TDC while tracking the target can throw off the AOB calibration.

The easy way to calibrate: turn scope to 000, manually change AOB on the TDC to 90 port or 90 starboard (whichever side you are approaching from), now turn OFF the TDC. And now when you re-acquire the target from your scope it's AOB is continuously calculated, producing the behavior I mentioned above when it nears your firing cone (+/- 15 deg). Although, personally I don't accept anything more than 10 degrees off.

If you want more in-depth, check out the "Fast 90" method in that very same guide you're using. That's how I do it, only with a few personal alterations (like using 10 degree margin of error instead of 15).

And always remember when using this method: Never turn on the TDC manual controls if you are locked-on to a target, never move the scope while using manual TDC, and the forced 90 degree AOB reading when scope is 000 will be wrong if you are not on the perpendicular intercept. If any of those conditions are met, you need to re-calibrate to stay accurate.

[xptical]

Personally I started with everything turned off except the external cam, it took me ages to learn but it's rewarding. For those that have toruble gathering the Range, Speed and AOB, a good GUI can do wonders.

I recently looked thoroughly for one that does not conflict to badly with the new interiors mod but went back to OLC GUI because I can come up with a good solution in less than one minute.


I think what I'd like to know is, if I enable one of those options, then what do I have to do to hit a target?

What dials in the TDC does the weapons officer fiddle with? Or does he fiddle with any of them?

What dials in the TDC does manual targeting deal with? Or does it deal with any of them?

[Snestorm]

For targeting I endorse maillemakers advice.

Map contacts:
If you've come this far, you certainly don't need them.
To me, they detract much from the immersion.

National identification:
Unfortunately, yes, you just might have to make another pass.

Zig zagging targets:
According to The Uboat Commanders Handbook, once you loose the element of surprise, you've lost your oppertunity.
Option 1 is to let them go permanently.
Option 2 is to let them get a few hours away, then pick up the chase on there original base course.

[pickinthebanjo]

I'm not quite sure what your asking, but i'll try to give this a go.

I think what I'd like to know is, if I enable one of those options, then what do I have to do to hit a target?

If you mean enable manual targeting:
You have to enter Range: with stock identify the ship then use the range tool (Stadimeter?) and set the horizontal line to the tallest point on the ship, and this will give you range.

For speed there are various ways in the stock game and I was never good at that, I would just use the speed button and let it go for about ten seconds then stop it and it would give an estimate.

For AOB use the tool in the map or just guess as it's usually fairly easy and it does not matter for keel shots as they do not impact directly.

Enter your calculations into the TDC set it to auto then fire (Dont forget to open your tubes first)

Now if your using a GUI mod you best just look up a tutorial as that would be another page to explain. Like I said before though, I use OLC GUI because it has the Range/Angle Disk

For anyone looking to try Manual targeting, this will greatly help you make your calculations:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1616&act=down - Direct Download OLC GUI 1.2.7

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1112&act=down - Video Tutorials For OLC 1.2.7

[dfscott]

Hey all.

Following everyone's advice, I started another patrol and started hitting and sinking stuff like crazy! Once I learned not to worry about range and to work to get a 90 degree shot, things got much easier.

Oh, and I also made the mistake of trusting the range lines on Pato's 3m bearing mod -- for some reason it reads low. I thought I was shooting from 600m when I was actually shooting from 300 -- really made it hard to get more than one off and a lot of them weren't armed yet.

I'm just about ready to try GWX -- does it require a more processing power? I'm playing on a laptop with integrated graphics so I don't have much to spare. Regular SH3 runs ok, fwiw.

[Flopper]

Zig zagging targets:
According to The Uboat Commanders Handbook, once you loose the element of surprise, you've lost your oppertunity.
Option 1 is to let them go permanently.
Option 2 is to let them get a few hours away, then pick up the chase on there original base course.

This is great to know. It makes sense in hindsight, and I can't describe how frustrated I've been when the only thing the target keeps showing my his stern on route to the opposite side in rough seas. I've ran out of torps trying to pull off an up the a$$ shot.

[Snestorm]

This is great to know. It makes sense in hindsight, and I can't describe how frustrated I've been when the only thing the target keeps showing my his stern on route to the opposite side in rough seas. I've ran out of torps trying to pull off an up the a$$ shot.

I also translate "heavy fog" to mean "forget it".
The stuff used to eat all my torpedoes, without paying anything back for them.

[dfscott]

Now if your using a GUI mod you best just look up a tutorial as that would be another page to explain. Like I said before though, I use OLC GUI because it has the Range/Angle Disk

For anyone looking to try Manual targeting, this will greatly help you make your calculations:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1616&act=down - Direct Download OLC GUI 1.2.7

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1112&act=down - Video Tutorials For OLC 1.2.7

So, does this work with GWX3? I've just installed that and I know it has a lot of different mods integrated already, so I didn't want to end up with any conflicts.

[xptical]

So, does this work with GWX3? I've just installed that and I know it has a lot of different mods integrated already, so I didn't want to end up with any conflicts.


Can anyone tell me what mods this guy had enabled? I have GWX running and my periscopes don't look like his...

[Flopper]

Can anyone tell me what mods this guy had enabled? I have GWX running and my periscopes don't look like his...

olc gold is made to install over top of gwx. you can find it near the top of the downloads section for sh3 if you sort by number of downloads.

[pickinthebanjo]

I use OLC 1.2.7 and I use it with GWX3 and occasionally with the new interiors mod. But when I use those two together (NI + OLC) I lose the zoom on the periscope.

But yeah it works fine with GWX3, I would post pics but that would take forever to load, take pics, upload them ect.

[Exakt]

BTW, is there a way to make OLC Gold "MkII" compatible with the Alternatives Flotillas from GWX3 or was it "implemented within OLC Gold?

[tomfon]

BTW, is there a way to make OLC Gold "MkII" compatible with the Alternatives Flotillas from GWX3 or was it "implemented within OLC Gold?

No, it wasn't implemented in OLG Gold. There is maybe a way to make these two compatible but you'd have to modify the en_menu.txt file. That said, i'm not certain that this would be the only file requiring alteration.

[tomfon]

I use OLC 1.2.7 and I use it with GWX3 and occasionally with the new interiors mod. But when I use those two together (NI + OLC) I lose the zoom on the periscope.

I guess this happens because both mods use a modified version of cameras.dat file plus OLC's GUI is not compatible with the NI mod.

[KL-alfman]

I'm just about ready to try GWX -- does it require a more processing power? I'm playing on a laptop with integrated graphics so I don't have much to spare. Regular SH3 runs ok, fwiw.


it is said that GWX runs fine if stock SH3 does.
no extra CPU-power needed.

as for GUIs regarding manual targetting:
I tried now MaGUI 3.1 which I consider not so hard-core difficult like OLC Gold MkIId
Hitman's GUI has still to be installed and tried out, it looks very nice, plain and highly functional.

[toodrunk]

I just recently started playing SHIII in "hardcore mode." I had dabbled with it a couple years back, but never really got into it. Just recently had the itch to really play it. So I started out playing max realism, and built this:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=114351

Things freakin awesome. The backside's the meat of it, calculates law of sins, speed conversions (meters per second to knots) and all sorts of other things.

There's a "Handbook" .pdf with examples here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=126824

Good gouge, and with practice you can get very quick with it. No better feeling then using it successfully.