Quick query on TMO

[Aculeo]

See post #29.

[SgtSabre]

I would like to know, as well. The sinking mechanics are just about the only thing I don't like about TMO. Seems like every torpedo hit is accompanied by huge fireball and massive secondary explosions. I realize that probably happened from time to time, but I'm sure it wasn't the norm.

TMO is supposed to make the player act and respond in a realistic manner. In my opinion, watching a ship slowly settle in the water and being forced to determine whether or not to expend more torpedoes on it would be a more realistic player behavior.

That said, I recently switched back to TMO 1.9 from RFB 2.0 (just for a switch rather than any shortcoming with RFB). The sinkings aren't quite as "Hollywood" as I remember them being from

I just hit a 5300 ton cargo ship near Rabaul with two MK10 torpedoes (S-18 out of Brisbane, April of '42). I was happy to see the ship settle by the stern as it tried to evade, eventually succumbing to the relentless grip of the Pacific ocean. It did only take six minutes to sink, though. Maybe a little faster than realistic, but a good experience. The one I hit just before that (it was an unescorted 2-ship convoy) went up like it was full of dynamite.

Oh well. There are so many good things with TMO I guess I can't complain. :DL

[CaptBackasswards]

Hail, all.


Speaking of the point, let me get to it: I like the changes that TMO makes, and I'd like to keep using it. But is there a way - and if so would it be allowable - to take the damage modelling from RFB and plug it into TMO?


---
(* Mess About With It Until It Works :O:)

The SEA folder in the game is where the ship files are located. You could probably just take those from the RFB mod and dropped them into the TMO mod. I would suggest backing up files first in case it doesn't work very well. Now the next question is: are the torpedoes more explosive in TMO than in RFB. Not sure. But they sure do pack a whallop. I blew up a passenger liner in the Bismarck Sea the other night and suffered retina damaged for about ten minutes. Passenger liner went up like a fire cracker factory blowing up. I play TMO although I have changed a few things here and there to my liking. :cool:

[BillBam]

I would like to know, as well. The sinking mechanics are just about the only thing I don't like about TMO. Seems like every torpedo hit is accompanied by huge fireball and massive secondary explosions. I realize that probably happened from time to time, but I'm sure it wasn't the norm.

TMO is supposed to make the player act and respond in a realistic manner. In my opinion, watching a ship slowly settle in the water and being forced to determine whether or not to expend more torpedoes on it would be a more realistic player behavior.

That said, I recently switched back to TMO 1.9 from RFB 2.0 (just for a switch rather than any shortcoming with RFB). The sinkings aren't quite as "Hollywood" as I remember them being from

I just hit a 5300 ton cargo ship near Rabaul with two MK10 torpedoes (S-18 out of Brisbane, April of '42). I was happy to see the ship settle by the stern as it tried to evade, eventually succumbing to the relentless grip of the Pacific ocean. It did only take six minutes to sink, though. Maybe a little faster than realistic, but a good experience. The one I hit just before that (it was an unescorted 2-ship convoy) went up like it was full of dynamite.

Oh well. There are so many good things with TMO I guess I can't complain. :DL

I don't want to speak for Ducimus however I do not believe his intent was to make a "perfectly realistic game," that is what RFB is all bout not TMO 1.9. I think TMO keeps it fairly accurate but with "fun" still part of the gaming experience. Maybe the explosions are a little over the top sometimes (which I believe he is addressing in 2.0) however IMHO the RFB sinking mechanics is "WAY" off!

Reading Dick O'Kanes books it seems that most ships sank fairly quickly, generally in 2-5 minutes (at least to confirm that she was going down if not actually totally under the water.) In RFB it is set at about 10 minutes per 1000 tons, no where in O'Kane's books does it take 50 min for a 5000 ton ship to sink.

[Ducimus]

The problem is two fold.


1.) For whatever reason i decided to put fuel, oil, and ammo in some ships. I "over thought" some of the convoys i put in the campaign traffic and as a result, you hit one with a volatile cargo, ( a tanker for instance) hes going to go up in a fireball.


2.) The current ship damage model is modified stock version. I slowed flooding way down, but thats about it. I did have the option to put in the NYGM styled sinking mechanics, but chose not to because i personally do not like waiting around for hours for a ship to sink, and because i was working on something else at the time, and had to keep focused if i wanted to finish it. So the only solution was to put it off on a back burner and make my own model later. Later, I did start my own version, but i quickly realized how much work it is, and there is no way i could adequately test it so it behaves to my own standards. With other things to do, i shoved it back on the back burner.

The realization here is that you can try..... but you can't do everything yourself. Did i ever mention there really isn't a "Team" working on TMO? Captain America and vickers03 contributations have been the closest thing to that, and i appreciate their work greatly, but there has only one person who's been continually wrenching on and testing all of this mod's "sub systems" at any given moment in time.

There hasn't been any delegation like , "ok Jim, you work on sinking mechanics, Bob, you work on aircraft, Jack you work on ship submarine physics, and i'll keep tooling on this AI". So now that im staring at my final update, i find i lack the will, or motivation to do much else. I will probably just remove ALL volitale cargo. It's about all i have patience for.

[ggregoro]

The problem is two fold.


1.) For whatever reason i decided to put fuel, oil, and ammo in some ships. I "over thought" some of the convoys i put in the campaign traffic and as a result, you hit one with a volatile cargo, ( a tanker for instance) hes going to go up in a fireball.


2.) The current ship damage model is modified stock version. I slowed flooding way down, but thats about it. I did have the option to put in the NYGM styled sinking mechanics, but chose not to because i personally do not like waiting around for hours for a ship to sink, and because i was working on something else at the time, and had to keep focused if i wanted to finish it. So the only solution was to put it off on a back burner and make my own model later. Later, I did start my own version, but i quickly realized how much work it is, and there is no way i could adequately test it so it behaves to my own standards. With other things to do, i shoved it back on the back burner.

The realization here is that you can try..... but you can't do everything yourself. Did i ever mention there really isn't a "Team" working on TMO? Captain America and vickers03 contributations have been the closest thing to that, and i appreciate their work greatly, but there has only one person who's been continually wrenching on and testing all of this mod's "sub systems" at any given moment in time.

There hasn't been any delegation like , "ok Jim, you work on sinking mechanics, Bob, you work on aircraft, Jack you work on ship submarine physics, and i'll keep tooling on this AI". So now that im staring at my final update, i find i lack the will, or motivation to do much else. I will probably just remove ALL volitale cargo. It's about all i have patience for.

Thank you for the info on the damage model. I love the random volatility of cargo approach which I believe has to be fairly realistic. A ship carrying munitions will surely go up with a bigger bang than one carrying a cargo toilet paper. I'm not crazy about waiting around either and that's why my preference is for TMO. Thanks again for a great MOD!

[CaptBackasswards]

The problem is two fold.


1.) For whatever reason i decided to put fuel, oil, and ammo in some ships. I "over thought" some of the convoys i put in the campaign traffic and as a result, you hit one with a volatile cargo, ( a tanker for instance) hes going to go up in a fireball.


2.) The current ship damage model is modified stock version. I slowed flooding way down, but thats about it. I did have the option to put in the NYGM styled sinking mechanics, but chose not to because i personally do not like waiting around for hours for a ship to sink, and because i was working on something else at the time, and had to keep focused if i wanted to finish it. So the only solution was to put it off on a back burner and make my own model later. Later, I did start my own version, but i quickly realized how much work it is, and there is no way i could adequately test it so it behaves to my own standards. With other things to do, i shoved it back on the back burner.

The realization here is that you can try..... but you can't do everything yourself. Did i ever mention there really isn't a "Team" working on TMO? Captain America and vickers03 contributations have been the closest thing to that, and i appreciate their work greatly, but there has only one person who's been continually wrenching on and testing all of this mod's "sub systems" at any given moment in time.

There hasn't been any delegation like , "ok Jim, you work on sinking mechanics, Bob, you work on aircraft, Jack you work on ship submarine physics, and i'll keep tooling on this AI". So now that im staring at my final update, i find i lack the will, or motivation to do much else. I will probably just remove ALL volitale cargo. It's about all i have patience for.


Hey! I enjoy the ocassional 'Big Bang'. I enjoy seeing my cat jump under the computer table when a cargo ship goes up full of munitions. TMO got me back into this sim after shelving it for awhile. Thanks!:rotfl2:

[SkyBaron]

Hail, all.
But is there a way - and if so would it be allowable - to take the damage modelling from RFB and plug it into TMO?


I was wondering the same thing. I've been playing SH4 for a couple of months only and I really enjoy both TMO and RFB mods. But I have to say that I like the damage/sinking model in RFB the best.

It would be cool if somebody made a "RFB ship damage model for TMO" mod :DL

I wonder if copying the zones.cfg file and all the AI ship folders from RFB into TMO would work. I'm not a programmer or modder either, so it might not be that simple.

[BillBam]

Try installing WernerSobe NSM4, it has a classic and lite version depending on who serious you want it. I love the lite version, gives the sinking affect without taking all nite to sink one ship. His manual says it is campatible with TMO if installed last. Sorry I don't have the link to it at the moment.

[BillBam]

Too funny...I just got "Clear the Bridge!" the story by O'kane of the USS Tang and below is the results of his attack on a merchant, this was the second such explosive kill of this night.

"The whacks of the first two detonations resounded from below instantly, a second before we felt the explosions topside. The third torpedo hit forward of her bridge, causing a tremendous explosion. The marine life, suddenly phosphorescent, made the seas go white. Tang was hit from all sides by monstrous shock wave, which seemed like the instantaneous detonation of a hundred torpedos, but there was just that one heart-stopping crack. The naval auxilary twisted, raised from the sea as yo would flip a spoon on end, then plunged by the stern, engulfed in a mass of flames."

In reading his books this is similar to many of his kills, I never read about him having to wait for comfirmation. Ship do explode or crack in half and go down quickly, and often from his writings.

[Ducimus]

NSM and RFB's implentation of the same is not compatible. You'll undo a slew full of stuff by overwriting the zones.cfg file.

[SgtSabre]

As soon as I speak, TMO makes me eat my words:

Early May of '42 in an S-18 in the Bismarck Sea. Hit a 3900-ton cargo ship with two MK10 torpedoes. One halfway astern from amidships, one at the tip of the bow. No huge fireball. Just a huge plume of water. The ship barely reacts. No visible settling due to flooding, nothing "Hollywood" like I described above. Multiple deck-gun rounds later, and I eventually get the huge fireball explosion and sinking.


I will probably just remove ALL volitale cargo. It's about all i have patience for.


No don't! I think that the cargo loads are excellent. A huge detonation from time to time is certainly something that a submariner would have encountered.

Maybe some of us are mis-stating our thoughts. My thought is that I, for one, just like a flooding-based damage model, rather than hit points-based. That is, I like it when a ship sinks because it has lost its bouyancy rather than because its 500 (or whatever) hit points have been depleted by two 250 hit point torpedoes.

I realize that perfect realism is not the goal of TMO. If the above does not jive with your vision for TMO, so be it. It remains excellent work and an extremely exciting mod.

[Zero Niner]

I do get violent explosions but also less spectacular sinkings. Recently I sent two fish into the sides of a freighter, about 2k tons or less. I hit about amidships and the other towards the stern. Observing from my attack scope, the ship slowed down and settled slowly at the stern. A few minutes later the stern was awash then completely submerged. The ship soon sank stern first.

[Ducimus]

Maybe some of us are mis-stating our thoughts.


The way people are talking, youd swear every ship in TMO was exploding like it was full of aviation gas. I can fix that right quick. Word,pad, and find/replace on the cargo loadouts and its taken care of.


My thought is that I, for one, just like a flooding-based damage model, rather than hit points-based.


Honest question. Aside from the sinking message (which i wish i could get rid of but can't entirely rid the game of it), can you *really* tell the difference visually or behaviorally?

[Bothersome]

I think TMO 1.9 is pretty close...

My last experience is (Playing 90% realism, I like external cam), I'm in USS Narwhal (SS-167)...

Heavy rain and fog at 23:00.
Small task force is coming across my bow from 310 degrees. Will cross with 90 degree AoB.
I can't see them so have to use hydrophone only. I decide to use high speed MK14. first ship gets past before I get set up, which I found out later was an Aux Sub Chaser 683 tons.
Second ship fired upon, 2 MK14s at approx 13.5 degree lead. Both miss.
Third ship fired upon, 2 MK14 at about 15.5 degrees lead. Only one torpedo hit.

It hit on the stern but did not sink. I looked with external camera and noticed the stern had sunk to where water is coming over the deck.
I reposition to get a stern shot. I'm surfaced by the way and using radar to get range.
About 20 minutes or so later, target is just floating but now she is not low anymore in the stern. I suppose her crew pumped out the water and is making repairs.
I send two torpedoes to sink her from stern tubes but both miss. The ship was at an awful angle to me. It was a bad shot from the beginning. But didn't want to get the enemy on an active hunt and we were fully into the cat and mouse part of the hunt right now.
Radar said ship was close to 1500 meters. So I get on the deck gun and sink her with about 6 rounds. Even first shot hit so I got lucky. The ship displayed a huge fireball so I guess I hit one of the depth charges.
1 Wakatake 1215 tons going down.
The next ship was aligned to my 0 degree and torpedoed with two fish freshly loaded. Only 1 hits but it sinks on first hit.
The sub chaser when down entirely by cannon fire at 2900 yards.

They all displayed the firery explosions. But shouldn't they being they were warships? And I particularly like that Wakatake repairing itself and almost getting back under-way.

[G2B]

I must say I do appreciate all the work Ducimus has put into TMO, I for one am a bit leary about starting to modify settings to much in the game, tis a long lonely process of trial and error with very little time to enjoy the sim or much else for that matter :nope:

To me TMO is a masterpiece, To all the modders of SH4 Thank You for giving your time so we can play :salute:

Now if I could just figure out how to make the flying thingies stop that funny wing roll before they hit the water, maybe dress up Pearl a bit :hmmm: Nooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!! Must stop fast convoy in the slot.

(this is the kinda post you get without much sleep :yawn:)

[Gibus]

Personally, I think it is fine.
Take the example of the convoy HI-31 from Moji to Singapore, vats of oilers were probably empty, while for the convoy HI-32 from Singapore to Moji, they should be full.
So bravo, Mr. Ducimus.

[Admiral8Q]

Thank you for the info on the damage model. I love the random volatility of cargo approach which I believe has to be fairly realistic. A ship carrying munitions will surely go up with a bigger bang than one carrying a cargo toilet paper. I'm not crazy about waiting around either and that's why my preference is for TMO. Thanks again for a great MOD!
Same here!

I like it when occasionally ships explode and sometimes they just slip into the drink. It adds variety and I'm always like, "WHOOHOO!!!" when one explodes. You have to remember that a ship carrying ammunition wiped out most of Halifax in 1917 when it exploded.

http://www.halifax.ca/community/explode.html
http://www.hsl.virginia.edu/historical/reflections/halifax/images/1.oneminutetonext.jpg

I really don't like sitting around for hours waiting to see if a ship will sink. That's why I switched from RFB to TMO.

Thanks for the excellent mod Ducimus:rock:

[Aculeo]

The realization here is that you can try..... but you can't do everything yourself. Did i ever mention there really isn't a "Team" working on TMO? Captain America and vickers03 contributations have been the closest thing to that, and i appreciate their work greatly, but there has only one person who's been continually wrenching on and testing all of this mod's "sub systems" at any given moment in time.

There hasn't been any delegation like , "ok Jim, you work on sinking mechanics, Bob, you work on aircraft, Jack you work on ship submarine physics, and i'll keep tooling on this AI". So now that im staring at my final update, i find i lack the will, or motivation to do much else. I will probably just remove ALL volitale cargo. It's about all i have patience for.

I feel like I hit a nerve here. If so, I apologise. I certainly don't want to give the idea I'm not happy with your mod. In fact of the two biggies I've tried - yours and RFB - TMO is my preference because of all the excellent changes it does make, but without going as hard-real as RFB does, and now I feel like I'll come over as being critical of RFB... :-?

For what it's worth, games/sims like this wouldn't be what they are without the hard work of modders and their generosity in releasing their work to all of us.

In asking my question in a light-hearted sort of a way, I didn't intend to imply any criticism of TMO as it is. I've no doubt that ships would on occasion go up like this. The reference to sci-fi was just for comedy. I only really wanted to see if it was okay for me to 'mod the mod' - to adjust it to taste, as it were - and how I might do it if so.

[tomoose]

Ducimus;
your mod is excellent and IMHO, along with RSRD, saved SHIV. I haven't tried RFB as yet but I've seen no reason to change. Conversely I'm sure there are RFB fans who feel the same way about RFB etc. To each his own.

I too have had the big explosions but also the big splashes without the pyrotechnics which left me wondering if the bugger was going to sink etc. That is part of the whole appeal of the game. I've had patrols where I've come back empty-handed or with only one ship sunk, again, in my view, all part of the game and much more realistic/historically accurate than coming back with multi-thousands of tons sunk on one single patrol.

I demonstrated SHIV to a friend who was considering getting the game. He'd seen a 'stock' version being played some time ago but when I showed him my TMO version he was hooked and I quote "now THAT's more like it." LOL.

I don't think Aculeo meant any slight but was looking for a tweak to fit his own tastes etc. I don't think any offence was intended.

TMO rocks!!! (I believe that's the modern vernacular way of giving praise? I'm getting a bit old to use phrases like that, LOL, but it seems to fit the situation).

Regards,

[SgtSabre]

Honest question. Aside from the sinking message (which i wish i could get rid of but can't entirely rid the game of it), can you *really* tell the difference visually or behaviorally?


I admit, the sinking message is probably the biggest difference. With an RFB-type flood-based damage model, you don't get that message until the ship is obviously doomed and the main deck is completely flooded. Other than that, I think the biggest difference is the speed of the sinking. It seems that the hit points-based model results in sinkings that commonly occur in one to three minutes. Flood-based sinkings are much slower, and leave the player wrestling with a decision on whether or not to expend additional torpedoes.

So other than the sinking message and the speed of the sinkings, I suppose I can't so much tell the difference.

[rmr1701]

I will probably just remove ALL volitale cargo. It's about all i have patience for.[/QUOTE]


Please don't, part of the fun of this is the eye candy explosions. While I respect everyone's opinion on gameplay and what they like or don't like, it is, after all, a game, and I for one enjoy blowing things up as well as seeing a simple flooding sinker. :salute:

[BillBam]

I will probably just remove ALL volitale cargo. It's about all i have patience for.


Please don't, part of the fun of this is the eye candy explosions. While I respect everyone's opinion on gameplay and what they like or don't like, it is, after all, a game, and I for one enjoy blowing things up as well as seeing a simple flooding sinker. :salute:[/QUOTE]

I agree keep the explosions at least on random ships, definitely one of the fun parts of the game. And they are historically accurate if you read Dick O'Kane's books, they had many violent explosions, some even damaging their sub.

The more I read the more I am convinced the very slow sinking mechanics of RFB is toally off base.

[Ducimus]

So other than the sinking message and the speed of the sinkings, I suppose I can't so much tell the difference.

Removing that message entirely is something i wish i could do. One can remove the text, but the game still outputs a time stamp. You see the time stamp, you know its sunk, so removing the text message is pointless.

Its EASY to make ships sink much slower then they already do, and i might slow them down a little bit more, but it's just asthetics so long as the ship sunk message exists.

[Admiral8Q]

Ducimus, leave it as is and work on other parts of the game. If you give me the know how on how to modify planes, I'll take a look and see if I can help you out with that. BTW, I did get attacked at p-depth, so I guess they can see you!

[BillBam]

Ducimus, leave it as is and work on other parts of the game. If you give me the know how on how to modify planes, I'll take a look and see if I can help you out with that. BTW, I did get attacked at p-depth, so I guess they can see you!

I got hit at Pdepth twice the other day while in too close to harbors during daylight, my mistake!

[BillBam]

Removing that message entirely is something i wish i could do. One can remove the text, but the game still outputs a time stamp. You see the time stamp, you know its sunk, so removing the text message is pointless.

Its EASY to make ships sink much slower then they already do, and i might slow them down a little bit more, but it's just asthetics so long as the ship sunk message exists.

I like it as is, slightly slower not a problem but ships that take 20 min to go down a real turn off...as I noted earlier Okane never had a ship take that long to go down.

[Hylander_1314]

Ducimus,

Leave the sinking mechanics as they are, and I really like seeing the big ball of fire go up from tankers, carriers, and other volital cargoes. TMO is tops for me man! Especially the carriers. Like the av-gas tanks on the boat got hit and whoosh!

[Aculeo]

Having run TMO for a while now, I guess I can say that I probably just ran into big-explosion ships randomly for my first few victims. I accept it doesn't happen all the time; I think I just had the stock game in mind (where it does) and went by the first few ships I sank.

Again, I apologise for any offence I may have caused, and withdraw my initial question and comments.

[Admiral8Q]

Again, I apologise for any offence I may have caused, and withdraw my initial question and comments.
No worries.:cool: