What were they thinking

[bigboywooly]

Wasnt happy with the grey colour on bases for neutral countries so went back to green
Then dropped in a defside cfg from SH3

And spotted something odd
Note the French bases

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/mission%20editor/Resupply%20mod/bases.jpg

As they are under Ge control should be blue
So took a look into the SH5 defside cfg

[SideEntry 33]
Country=France
Side=0 < Neutral
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19390902

[SideEntry 34]
Country=France
Side=1 < Allied
StartDate=19390903
EndDate=19400625

[SideEntry 35]
Country=France
Side=2 < AXIS
StartDate=19400626
EndDate=19440825

[SideEntry 36]
Country=France
Side=1 < Allied
StartDate=19440826
EndDate=19451231

[SideEntry 38]
Country=Norway
Side=0 < Neutral
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19400408

[SideEntry 39]
Country=Norway
Side=2 < AXIS
StartDate=19400409
EndDate=19451231

[SideEntry 57]
Country=Denmark
Side=0 < Neutral
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19400408

[SideEntry 58]
Country=Denmark
Side=2 < AXIS
StartDate=19400409
EndDate=1945082

This is despite those bases supposedly beiing overwritten by the Historical bases mis

So the Danes,Norwegians and French as part of the axis eh

Oh and lets not forget the Poles

[SideEntry 29]
Country=Poland
Side=1
StartDate=19390902
EndDate=19391001

[SideEntry 30]
Country=Poland
Side=2 < AXIS
StartDate=19391002
EndDate=19451231

A rewrite is in order methinks

[Lord Justice]

So the Danes,Norwegians and French as part of the axis





A rewrite is in order methinksNot at all!! after all they did have above manpower drawn from those countries, Nordland, charlemagne, danmark, etc waffen ss regiments. ;)

[Carotio]

So the Danes,Norwegians and French as part of the axis eh

Oh and lets not forget the Poles

A rewrite is in order methinks

Why? Shouldn't you make a difference between the occupied countries and the free? Maybe this was made as to not make the axis units attack the occupied units...
So if something should be changed then it is to add a free version too. AFAIK there has always been a Free French force in all SH versions, but not for the other mentioned countries even though ships from those countries at sea while the countries were occupied joined forces with the allies.
So it ain't so strange... :03:

[The General]

I'm operating on the assumption that tomorrow's Patch will be the last.

It's likely this was missed by The Devs for Patch 1.2 isn't it? :yep: If they missed this, what else? :hmmm:

[LIONPRIDE]

.

Careful ... :D

I pulled into Rotterdam last night thinking I'd be OK and got lit-up ! Not a very warm welcome from a neutral port.

Worst part, Axis ships that were there never helped me out. I was able to take two ships out before I high-tailed it out of there. A tanker and what looked like a passenger ship.

.

[bigboywooly]

I doubt many French will concur they were part of the Axis as France WAS neutral after capitulation
Despite being occupied
Yes the game has always had FreeFrench as was the case in RL

The issue with making Norway etc part of the axis is that it wasnt
Occupied yes
Allied no
Aside from those who joined GE units the rest of the country was far from happy about being occupied and showed it
Norway had a huge WW2 merc fleet which sailed with the allies

As the game stands now you will never get to see a Polish,Norwegian or Danish ship sailing in any convoy
And while its possible to create a FreeNorway still means a rewrite:doh:

I seem to recall a similar convo in the SH3 forums
Will try to find that but IIRC most of the above named nations would deffo NOT consider themselves part of the axis

[Pablo]

I seem to recall a similar convo in the SH3 forums
Will try to find that but IIRC most of the above named nations would deffo NOT consider themselves part of the axis
Hi!

There were several. Here is one of them: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=86498&highlight=occupied+greece.

IIRC Beery ran into a wall of flak when he included Greece as an "Axis" country in RUb and reverted them back to members of the Allies.

Pablo

[Jan Kyster]

As the game stands now you will never get to see a Polish,Norwegian or Danish ship sailing in any convoy...Those ships (typical) sailed under the british flag. Some danish ships went to the states and sailed under the Star Sprangled Banner...

If wanted, I can compile a complete list of which danish ships went under which foreign flags in WW2.
:hmmm: But be prepared for some waiting time then - there were hundreds...

You will not find a WW2 convoy with ships flying danish or norwegian flags :salute:

[bigboywooly]

Those ships (typical) sailed under the british flag. Some danish ships went to the states and sailed under the Star Sprangled Banner...

If wanted, I can compile a complete list of which danish ships went under which foreign flags in WW2.
:hmmm: But be prepared for some waiting time then - there were hundreds...

You will not find a WW2 convoy with ships flying danish or norwegian flags :salute:

Interesting

True the Danish fleet was requesitioned on the day of invasion and placed under British flag
Not so Norways fleet - a large part already chartered to the British in Sept 39 to bring oil etc into GB
AFAIK Nortraship - the organisation set up in London to run Norways huge fleet after the invasion and the largest shipping company in the world - had control of the ships
They were certainly hired by the MOWT but sailed under Norwegian flags

At the outbreak of the war, Norway had the fourth largest merchant fleet in the world (after the UK, USA and Japan). In late April 1940 the Allies demanded that the fleet (most of it outside Norwegian waters and so not controlled by Germany) be transferred to Allied flag. The Norwegian government, still in Norway, resisted this, but took over the right to manage and use all vessels so that they could be used to secure supplies and advance the war operations of Norway and the Allied powers (40% of the fleet was sailing for the allies already, under an agreement from September 1939). Norwegian vessels sailed mostly in trans-Atlantic convoys during the war, under Norwegian flag. Most of the Norwegian merchant fleet was under the control of the government based in London. Those ships remaining in Norway probably just sailed in coastal waters. A ship under Norwegian flag anywhere else in the world would be considered an Allied ship. If it hadn't, using false colours would not succeed.


http://www.allstates-flag.com//fotw/flags/no-ww2.html

Besides
Having Norway as Axis means you cannot have any Norwegian navy ships on the allied side
Such as the 5 Town class or 2 S class DDs
Not to mention the 2 U class submarines HNoMS Ula and HNoMS Uredd which are actually in the game in Norways roster and so your ally :doh:

[Bilge_Rat]

bigboywooly, I am not sure if I understand your point. The start and end dates match up with history. Is'nt the whole point of listing a country as AXIS, NEUTRAL or ALLIED to denote if the port is friendly, neutral or enemy in the game?

[bigboywooly]

bigboywooly, I am not sure if I understand your point. The start and end dates match up with history. Is'nt the whole point of listing a country as AXIS, NEUTRAL or ALLIED to denote if the port is friendly, neutral or enemy in the game?

Well yes and no
Denotes not just the port but all the shipping too

Ports are easily fixed using the common mis
I think was only changed this way - previous SH titles those countries were Allied or neutral - because the HistoricalBases.mis doesnt work as intended

From the Common.mis - has all bases and nodes

[Unit 65]
Name=Lorient
Class=NavalBase
Type=407
Origin=France
LayerOperation=0
Side=0 < has France neutral thoughout war
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
Doctrine=0
CfgDate=19390901
MainEquipment=1
SecondaryEquipment=1
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
DockedShip=false
IsEscort=false
GameEntryDate=19380101
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0

From the ** Historical Bases mis - all project folders have one of these with the name replacing the **

[Unit 3]
Name=Lorient
Class=NavalBase
Type=407
Origin=German
LayerOperation=0
Side=2
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
Doctrine=0
CfgDate=19400601
MainEquipment=1
SecondaryEquipment=1
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
DockedShip=false
IsEscort=false
GameEntryDate=19400606 < At this date this entry is supposed to overide the one above
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0

But by changing France to neutral in defside that French bases should still show blue under German occupation but as from the pic below they dont

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/mission%20editor/Resupply%20mod/bases.jpg

So I guess the simple way was to make those countries part of the Axis

But as posted above Norway for instance - as an Axis country ingame - receives 2 U class subs from Britain AFTER occupation

[Unit 1]
Name=HMS Uredd
DOC=19411212
DOD=19430224

[Unit 2]
Name=HNoMS Ula
DOC=19430403
DOD=1965120

So it doesnt add up

Anyone down the line adding in Norwegian naval units ingame and adding them in historical context such as HNoMS Bath sunk while escorting convoy OG-71 as part of the 5th Escort Group will find an axis DD amongst the escorts
:har:

[loerelau]

I was suprised to see that Amsterdam/Rotterdam were Allied ports in October/November '40 (Don't know exactly how far I am in campaign.).

Didn't check the port, but they are red on the map.

[Bilge_Rat]

So it doesnt add up

Anyone down the line adding in Norwegian naval units ingame and adding them in historical context such as HNoMS Bath sunk while escorting convoy OG-71 as part of the 5th Escort Group will find an axis DD amongst the escorts.

I see your point, there were several Free French or Norwegian crewed corvettes on the North Atlantic Convoy run. I guess they would all appear as "British" now.

[mookiemookie]

There's no way to add them to a new allied country's roster and call them Free Norwegian? Or is adding countries not possible?

[blackswan40]

i noticed this when i tried to put norwiegan & greek polish ships in one of my SH5 multiplayer missions hope the devs or some one sort this out
how big a rewrite is it bigboy wooly is it just a mater of changing a few lines in the config file or is it a real big modding job

my SH5 fighting canucs mission has canadian destroyers & corvets they have the prefix CA infront of the name
so they are canadian navy ships

[The General]

Seeing as we're playing on the German side, our Allies are who; the Japanese and Italians? Naming forces Allied or Axis doesn't really work in this situation and a whole other denomination should've been used. Enemy/Neutral/Friendly would've been fine with me and saved a helluva lot of confusion :doh:

[bigboywooly]

i noticed this when i tried to put norwiegan & greek polish ships in one of my SH5 multiplayer missions hope the devs or some one sort this out
how big a rewrite is it bigboy wooly is it just a mater of changing a few lines in the config file or is it a real big modding job

Can fix it in 2 seconds by using an altered sh3 defside
BUT
Then need to go through the common.mis and alter base owners
Again a fairly quick job
The hardest part is going through the campaign files and seeing if there are any Norwegian\French etc units scripted
Doubt it very much

And yes its possible to add any new nation you want
Among other things am working on adding a lot more countries ATM
Playing with the Flag.dat now as it happens
Just added Iceland and Faroes flags - although ingame had no flag in the dat
Just looking ahead thats all

No doubt by tomorrow will be kicking myself as the devs have done it
:har:

[The General]

No doubt by tomorrow I'll be kicking myself because the Devs have done it.Yeah, wouldn't that be nice? :DL

[Jan Kyster]

Norwegian vessels sailed mostly in trans-Atlantic convoys during the war, under Norwegian flag...Those ships remaining in Norway probably just sailed in coastal waters. A ship under Norwegian flag anywhere else in the world would be considered an Allied ship. If it hadn't, using false colours would not succeed.
http://www.allstates-flag.com//fotw/flags/no-ww2.html
That doesn't make sense :88)

The german Kaleun raided convoys in the Atlantic, now he's going home to "his" base in Bergen.
At which point in the North Sea does he decide the ships flying norwegian flags now are "his own"?

Or the bristish subcommander coming back from patrolling norwegian waters - where does he decide the ships are no longer "hostile"?

Danish ships in home waters were flying danish flags and had very large danish flags painted on the hull as agreed with the occupying forces.
That should keep the german navy from attacking them (which they in many cases didn't respect, lots were sunk despite this agreement) and the Kaleun coming from Flensburg/Kiel wouldn't sink these on his way up through the danish waters - they were on his side.
But when he came into the Atlantic/close to England, suddenly danish ships would turn into prey?

After the occupation of Denmark and Norway, everything belonged to the Germans and should be marked as Axis. Not that we liked it, but nobody asked...

Until I see a photo of a convoy with norwegian/danish flags in it, I'll claim the AllStates-Flags.com is not correct.

[ddrgn]

That doesn't make sense :88)

The german Kaleun raided convoys in the Atlantic, now he's going home to "his" base in Bergen.
At which point in the North Sea does he decide the ships flying norwegian flags now are "his own"?

Or the bristish subcommander coming back from patrolling norwegian waters - where does he decide the ships are no longer "hostile"?

Danish ships in home waters were flying danish flags and had very large danish flags painted on the hull as agreed with the occupying forces.
That should keep the german navy from attacking them (which they in many cases didn't respect, lots were sunk despite this agreement) and the Kaleun coming from Flensburg/Kiel wouldn't sink these on his way up through the danish waters - they were on his side.
But when he came into the Atlantic/close to England, suddenly danish ships would turn into prey?

After the occupation of Denmark and Norway, everything belonged to the Germans and should be marked as Axis. Not that we liked it, but nobody asked...

Until I see a photo of a convoy with norwegian/danish flags in it, I'll claim the AllStates-Flags.com is not correct.

Norwegian boats were sunk when they we're sailing with allied convoys. Go see the tonnage wolfpacks put up and note the countries, they sank plenty of Norwegian boats.

They sank 315 Norwegian ships in fact.

And they certainly were being sunk in 1943.

http://www.uboat.net/ops/convoys/convoys.php?convoy=HX-229

Note: even Dutch freighters were sunk during this attack and counted as enemy tonnage.

[ddrgn]

Can fix it in 2 seconds by using an altered sh3 defside
BUT
Then need to go through the common.mis and alter base owners
Again a fairly quick job
The hardest part is going thro the campaign files and seeing if there are any Norwegian\French etc units scripted
Doubt it very much

And yes its possible to add any new nation you want
Among other things am working on adding a lot more countries ATM
Playing with the Flag.dat now as it happens
Just added Iceland and Faroes flags - although ingame had no flag in the dat
Just looking ahead thats all

No doubt by tomorrow will be kicking myself as the devs have done it
:har:

For multiplayer and single missions we don't need to look at the common.mis. We can make the change to the defside.cfg and add enemy Polish, Norwegian, and Greek shipping to our maps, as long as the modifications are install on each player to avoid conflict.

If not fixed tomorrow I will put up a mod specifically for MP and SM in which you can add the above mentioned ships in custom maps and sink them with your buds in mp or in a single mission.

To be honest I haven't even seen the subpen in the campaign, mp and singlemissions do the trick for me.

[mcarlsonus]

I was suprised to see that Amsterdam/Rotterdam were Allied ports in October/November '40 (Don't know exactly how far I am in campaign.).

The Netherlands actually fell to the Germans in early May, 1940 after the May 10 invasion. Amsterdam itself was never actually, "liberated" by the Allies, but the German Occupation Forces signed a ceasefire on May 4, 1945 and actually surrendered on May 5.

[bigboywooly]

For multiplayer and single missions we don't need to look at the common.mis. We can make the change to the defside.cfg and add enemy Polish, Norwegian, and Greek shipping to our maps, as long as the modifications are install on each player to avoid conflict.

If not fixed tomorrow I will put up a mod specifically for MP and SM in which you can add the above mentioned ships in custom maps and sink them with your buds in mp or in a single mission.

To be honest I haven't even seen the subpen in the campaign, mp and singlemissions do the trick for me.

Yep for SP and MP a simple JSGME file would be all you need to switch it over