Arizona bill to outlaw illegal immigrants...

[SteamWake]

Yes you read that right... it will now be illegal to be illegal :doh:


PHOENIX -- The Arizona House on Tuesday approved a bill to crack down on illegal immigration by making it against state law to be in Arizona without legal immigration documents.


What on earth :doh:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/14/arizona-legislature-prepares-immigration-enforcement-governors-signature/

[Buddahaid]

Yes you read that right... it will now be illegal to be illegal :doh:



What on earth :doh:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/14/arizona-legislature-prepares-immigration-enforcement-governors-signature/

Oooh, double plus illegal.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Oooh, double plus illegal.

Pretty much. I'm not sure what it will really do to stop them, though.

Really, the only way to do it is w/a Berlin Wall type fortification the length of the border, but no one has the political balls to do that. And god knows how much the prices for certain things would rise if illegals disappeared from the work force. Well, at least they're not a certain other demographic group which tends to be far more violent when faced w/value systems different from their own.

[SteamWake]

Actually the bill frees the hands of law enforcement to enforce the law.

They can now 'arrest' illegals without fear of reprimand or reprisal.

It was just strangly worded.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Actually the bill frees the hands of law enforcement to enforce the law.

They can now 'arrest' illegals without fear of reprimand or reprisal.

It was just strangly worded.

It would suck to be a Hispanic born in the U.S., though. I'm sure in Maricopa county you get hassled all the time by law enforcement. Now you'd get hassled even more.

[SteamWake]

It would suck to be a Hispanic born in the U.S., though. I'm sure in Maricopa county you get hassled all the time by law enforcement. Now you'd get hassled even more.

Yes that is a definate downside though I'd be willing to bet that law enforcement already know whom alot of the illegals are already but couldent do anything.

What if your a US born Latino with no green card that could get ugly.

[Buddahaid]

No we aren't profiling hispanics.....

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/04/14/MNOS1CU8FG.DTL


"It requires law enforcement officers who have a "reasonable suspicion" that someone is an illegal immigrant to determine that person's immigration status "when practicable." A provision in the bill states that race or ethnicity cannot be the sole grounds for asking about immigration status, but civil rights groups say authorities are not barred from using them along with other factors that raise suspicions."
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/04/14/MNOS1CU8FG.DTL#ixzz0l6FwrD3m

[tater]

I don't think they will be randomly pulling over hispanics.

The problem is that in the past the police have not been allowed to even ask or determine the status of people already in custody or questioned. So while it's illegal to come into the US without doing the proper footwork, since only limited (overworked) agencies are allowed in general to deal with the issue, nothing happens.

It;s like healthcare laws saying that they don't cover illegals. That's great, but since no one is allowed to ask their status in the first place, it's meaningless. There was a patient seeking care who was known to be an illegal. He had medicaid some how, too. I looked up how to report him for medicaid fraud. LOL.

Search medicaid fraud sometime, and look at the state wesites on how to report it. Report a DOCTOR for medicaid fraud? Hell, they'll probably come to your house to help you fill out the form. Patient fraud? Apparently there is none, there is no mechanism in place to report it.
:yeah:

[GoldenRivet]

Actually the bill frees the hands of law enforcement to enforce the law.

correct.

this used to be the job of the United States Border Patrol.

One of the most useless organizations in United States history.

Now, any cop can make a proper arrest.

so... then what

Put them into a prison and feed and clothe them at our expense?

send them back so they can just hop the border again in three days?

whats the solution.

Personally im in support of legislature that gives authorities the right to...

shut down your business for hiring illegals.

sieze your property for renting apartments or duplexes etc to illegals.

and fining you or giving you prison time for any business dealings you have with illegals.

[UnderseaLcpl]

tater brings up a good point. Laws against illegal immigration rarely work out...unless you happen to be from somewhere other than a Hispanic nation that is close to or borders the US. Just ask my Ukranian stepmother who, after 7 years, is still not a US citizen because the paperwork keeps getting held up.

The volume of illegal immmigration stems from two causes: (1) accessibility, and (2) motivation. Many believe that the first cause is the one we should seek to address, either by building a wall or enforcing stricter immigration laws or what have you, but the solution lies in eliminating the second cause, or better yet, using it to our advantage.

Illegal immigrants flock to this nation because of the poverty in their own nations. I have no problem with that whatsoever. Lift the lamp beside the Golden Door, America! We owe our prosperity to our ancestors who immigrated to the land of opportunity and made the most of that opportunity. What right have we to deny others the same chance? If anything, I think we should relax restrictions on immigration.

What we should not do, however, is give them a free ride. That's just asking for abuse. No entitlements, no free healthcare, no education programs, nothing unless you follow the proper guidelines to apply for citizenship. In short, you must provide proof of citizenship to qualify for any kind of government service. The only exception I would make to that rule is in the case of police and fire services, but I would not allow immigrants to pursue legal action.

By this method, illegal immigration would be seriously curtailed in no time at all, partially because immigration would be easier, and partially because there's less incentive. More importantly, it would drastically reduce the impact that illegal immigration has on the US economy.

That leaves us with only one more problem to overcome: protectionism. That's the real issue with illegal, or even legal immigration in most cases. People don't like the idea of anybody taking their jobs, and they'll come up with all kinds of creative ways to keep new labor out, especially if it's cheaper.

The only way to deal with that is to make the immigration laws as fair as possible (in the sense of opportunity, not outcome), and then set them in legislative stone so that they cannot be easily changed, i.e., 90% majority required to amend the law. That will force people to be competitive rather than rely on state force to block others out, and such policy is the basis for a truly equal society.

Indeed, the same kind of policy should apply to every aspect of our law. Most see our system of law and government as a way to keep things fair, but in fact the opposite is true - it's just a tool for the powerful to use to secure their positions through force. Law is supposed to mean the same thing for everyone in this nation, and those who wish to join us, but it rarely does.

When I look at the debate over illegal immigration, especially in Washington, all I see is a smokescreen being thrown up by a gaggle of self-interested groups with a seperate agenda. Dems are lenient on immigration because they want the new votes, and they're willing to buy them with taxpayer money. Republicans are draconian in their measures against immingartion because they want to protect the votes they already have, and they're willing to buy them with taxpayer money.

It's a battle between numerous, politically apathetic, and poor Democratic supporters and a smaller but very politically active and wealthy Republican supporters. Outside, shrewd investors and businessmen throw money at both parties and then laugh all the way to the bank.

As always, the solution is to take away the tool by which the powerful exploit the rest of us: force, manifested in government. Many great men throughout American history have voiced this sentiment, but they are rarely recalled, save in oft-forgotten history lectures, and even then they are rarely lauded for their foresight.

George Washington warned: "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."

Thomas Jefferson warned that the natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain.

My personal favorite is not from an American at all, though. Rather, it is from the Savoyard philosopher Joseph de Maistre, and, ironically enough, he was an authoritarian, but he hit the nail right on the head: "Every nation has the government it deserves". I realize I'm taking it out of his context, but the words are true as anything. Whether the issue is illegal immigration or trade deficit or public debt or the recession or what have you, we are in this place because we allowed the few power over the many. We have the government we deserve. It is a monument to all our sins.

[GoldenRivet]

excellent points. :hmmm:

[Onkel Neal]

Pretty much. I'm not sure what it will really do to stop them, though.

Really, the only way to do it is w/a Berlin Wall type fortification the length of the border, but no one has the political balls to do that. And god knows how much the prices for certain things would rise if illegals disappeared from the work force. Well, at least they're not a certain other demographic group which tends to be far more violent when faced w/value systems different from their own.


No, no, no, there is a far better way, and one that would cost nothing.

Simply legislate huge fines and criminal penalties for anyone who hires an illegal, and post bounties for informants to alert INS when they know of a company who has illegals working for them. And this gets around the terrible, terrible issue of harrassing the poor Hispanics, legal or otherwise.

Penalty for employing an illegal alien? $50,000 per alien and 10 years in the federal penitentiary. Business is closed and assets comfiscated.

Bounty for an arrest on an employer who hires illegals: $5000.

Problem solved.

If you are here legally, welcome my friend! Be our guest.

[GoldenRivet]

No, no, no, there is a far better way, and one that would cost nothing.

Simply legislate huge fines and criminal penalties for anyone who hires an illegal, and post bounties for informants to alert INS when they know of a company who has illegals working for them.

Penalty for employing an illegal alien? $50,000 per alien and 10 years in the federal penitentiary. Business is closed and assets comfiscated.

Bounty for an arrest on an employer who hires illegals: $5000.

Problem solved.

If you are here legally, welcome my friend! Be our guest.

absolutely.

people would be reporting such companies in droves i should think

[tater]

I'd like to add that while I am absolutely in favor of criminalizing the hiring of illegals, deporting illegals here now as they are discovered, and even locking down the border by any means necessary, I'd be totally fine with grossly increasing the number of immigrants let in legally.

If 1 million a year sneak in, let 800,000 in legally—or more, doesn't matter to me. I don't care that they come, I welcome them. What POs me is that they don't follow the rules and come in legally, jumping through all required hoops and paperwork. Arturo is welcome to come and work hard, but I don't want another Mr. Atta, please.

After a bunch of travel in the 3d world over the years, I long ago came up with my own, personal definition of "civilization."

Civilization exists in societies that spontaneously form lines.

If you stand in lines and don't frequently hear, "I'm sorry, were you ahead of me?" or "No, she was in front of me, take care of her first, thank you." you're someplace uncivilized.

Sneaking in is like cutting a line.

[Ducimus]

Too little, too late IMO. one reason california is bankrupt is because of illegal immigration. I recall seeing some statistic somewhere, that back in 92, illegals cost california 10 million annually. If im remember that correctly, i shudder to think what it is now.

[tater]

There is an argument I hear frequently by supporters of illegal immigration that says that illegals pay taxes, and get fewer services for their money. I'll accept that as true.

Doesn't matter. The tax stats are clear, you need to be paying a LOT in taxes to pay a "fair share." If you are not paying for your family's share of the total budget, your contribution doesn't matter. It's like selling widgets for $0.01 less than it costs you to make them. The more your sell, the more money you lose.

[Ducimus]

There is an argument I hear frequently by supporters of illegal immigration that says that illegals pay taxes,

Thats a crock of excrement. The whole reason why people "hire" illegals is so they can pay them under the table. I refuse to believe all these "undocumented workers" hanging out at home depot, are doing anything other then putting a burden on healthcare and the like. I've also heard that a fair amount of what these guys make, they send back home to mexico or where ever.

BTW did you know in some places in california, they've acutally set up designated spots for "day workers" to hang out at? Complete with shady overhang, and a public toilet while they sit there and wait for a job.

[Dan D]

No, no, no, there is a far better way, and one that would cost nothing.

Simply legislate huge fines and criminal penalties for anyone who hires an illegal, and post bounties for informants to alert INS when they know of a company who has illegals working for them. And this gets around the terrible, terrible issue of harrassing the poor Hispanics, legal or otherwise.

Penalty for employing an illegal alien? $50,000 per alien and 10 years in the federal penitentiary. Business is closed and assets comfiscated.

Bounty for an arrest on an employer who hires illegals: $5000.

Problem solved.

If you are here legally, welcome my friend! Be our guest.

That is very close to how it is done over here.

Federal Border guard on a regular basis raids e.g. construction sites. If there is an alien without proper working papers, the employer has to compensate all the costs the Federal Republic of Germany had to spend to get that guy back home. That includes the costs for the custody to secure deportation, costs for the transport to the airport (petrol consumption, personnel costs (at least 2 handsome policemen) etc., the airfare for the next-best regular flight with Lufhansa, etc. etc.

That is easily a couple of thousand Euros. And we are not talking about the fine yet you receive for employing illegal workers.

I am pretty much sure, that’s how it is done or very close to how it is done in the US as well. Because it makes sense.

[SteamWake]

That is very close to how it is done over here.

Federal Border guard on a regular basis raids e.g. construction sites. If there is an alien without proper working papers, the employer has to compensate all the costs the Federal Republic of Germany had to spend to get that guy back home. That includes the costs for the custody to secure deportation, costs for the transport to the airport (petrol consumption, personnel costs (at least 2 handsome policemen) etc., the airfare for the next-best regular flight with Lufhansa, etc. etc.

That is easily a couple of thousand Euros. And we are not talking about the fine yet you receive for employing illegal workers.

I am pretty much sure, that’s how it is done or very close to how it is done in the US as well. Because it makes sense.

Close .. the main difference is that your country actually enforces the law.

I read a story today I'll link it in a second about Immigrants entering through enviromentally protected land. Something about "No humans allowed" so of course its a great way to get through without being stopped seeing as evidently only the guards are considered human.

Off to find the link BRB

That as it turned out was not so easy but here it is.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/nov/16/national-park-service-putting-holes-in-border-secu/print/

[0ldTimer]

No, no, no, there is a far better way, and one that would cost nothing.

Simply legislate huge fines and criminal penalties for anyone who hires an illegal, and post bounties for informants to alert INS when they know of a company who has illegals working for them. And this gets around the terrible, terrible issue of harrassing the poor Hispanics, legal or otherwise.

Penalty for employing an illegal alien? $50,000 per alien and 10 years in the federal penitentiary. Business is closed and assets comfiscated.

Bounty for an arrest on an employer who hires illegals: $5000.

Problem solved.

If you are here legally, welcome my friend! Be our guest.

Well in the UK we've had a law a little along these lines since 2006, although the penalties aren't as heavy as you propose. Employers have to keep copies of documentation to show they've checked the people they employ are legal. The government minister responsible for the legislation was Baroness Scotland.

Last year Baroness Scotland had to pay a £5,000 fine under this law for employing an illegal immigrant as a housekeeper.

I don't know what that says about this type of legislation as a solution to the problem of illegal immigration. Maybe it says more about the quality of our government ministers...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricia_Scotland,_Baroness_Scotland_of_Asthal (near the bottom of the page)

[Platapus]

I think this law is sorta like the tax on pot. It is just one more way the government can prosecute. In this case an illegal alien would be prosecuted for both a federal and state crime.

One can not be tried for the same crime twice, but in making this a state law, it gives the prosecutors another charge in addition to the federal charges.

This also clears up the gray area of whether state officials can prosecute federal laws when the federal prosecutors choose not to. This is especially critical when considering how state law enforcement can enforce 8 U.S.C Section 1101 which is entitled The Immigration and Nationality Act (INA).

The CRS published a very good report on the complexities of state law enforcement enforcing the INA.

Enforcing Immigration Law: The Role of State and Local Law Enforcement

http://www.votolatino.org/reports/the_role_of_state_and_local_law_enforcement.pdf

It should also be noted that this Arizona law will probably be challenged in the Supreme Court as Congress is empowered by the Constitution to "To establish a uniform rule of naturalization".

It will be an interesting case to follow.

[tater]

Thats a crock of excrement. The whole reason why people "hire" illegals is so they can pay them under the table. I refuse to believe all these "undocumented workers" hanging out at home depot, are doing anything other then putting a burden on healthcare and the like. I've also heard that a fair amount of what these guys make, they send back home to mexico or where ever.

BTW did you know in some places in california, they've acutally set up designated spots for "day workers" to hang out at? Complete with shady overhang, and a public toilet while they sit there and wait for a job.

I agree, but even if you accept that bogus argument I presented it's BS was my point.

We have those designated areas here as well, it's insane. Everyone knows they are there.

It's hard to hire anyone to do anything here without illegals as part of the work force. I'd submit that it's impossible to hire a roofing firm in ABQ and not have illegals doing the work. MY yard guy, Michael, comes to do some stuff for us every few weeks. Our daughters play together sometimes as well. I keep him doing work I would normally do partially because he refuses to hire illegals. He costs more and I don't really need help aside from hauling, but it's nice to see someone not willing to do that.

[Platapus]

Thats a crock of excrement. The whole reason why people "hire" illegals is so they can pay them under the table. I refuse to believe all these "undocumented workers" hanging out at home depot, are doing anything other then putting a burden on healthcare and the like. I've also heard that a fair amount of what these guys make, they send back home to mexico or where ever.



The question of how much illegal immigrants pay in taxes is not always clear cut because attempts to answer it suffer from the same common problems that persists when trying to allocate the incidence of any tax – who the law says must pay (statutory incidence) and who actually pays (economic incidence). In addition, like most estimates pertaining to undocumented immigrants, the numbers are all over the map.


It is true that many undocumented immigrants pay payroll taxes (i.e. FICA and Medicare) using either an invalid Social Security number or a Tax Identification Number (TIN), and empirical evidence tends to show that a large fraction of the economic incidence of these taxes falls on workers.


Some of these same individuals also pay income taxes, assuming their reported adjusted gross incomes are high enough to where they actually have a positive liability. Certain legal questions such as the proper filing status most likely exists as well, and mixing a complicated tax system with the complicated issue of undocumented workers can cause nightmares for willing accountants and law enforcement.


But even if one is paid “under the table” where neither the employer nor employee report the income to the IRS, other taxes are paid by illegal immigrants.


This would include mainly sales taxes on items purchased in most states and localities. Only states with most likely few undocumented individuals -- Alaska, Montana, Oregon, New Hampshire, and Delaware -- do not have a statewide sales tax. The incidence of sales taxes varies by product, but in terms of essential products that low-income immigrants are most likely to purchase (i.e. food, clothing, etc.), they tend to be highly inelastic, meaning the burden mostly falls on the them as the consumer.


Corporate income taxes could also be paid in part by illegal immigrants. The burden of any corporate tax will fall on a combination of three parties: workers, consumers, and/or shareholders. While illegal immigrants tend to not be active investors, they are often workers and consumers, so they do bear a fraction of that burden.


Overall, while some illegal immigrants may work in the black market, avoiding taxes entirely is not practically possible. Even those illegal immigrants who may be involved in other illegal activities like drug smuggling/dealing ultimately pay some tax when they use that income to purchase goods.


While some argue that illegal immigrants do not pay their fair share of taxes compared to the value of government services they receive, this is partially a normative question that needs to be accompanied by more empirical evidence to support or refute. But to answer the question, "Do illegal immigrants pay any taxes?" the answer is clearly yes.


http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/1424.html


All the more reason to have a consumption tax, in my opinion.

[tater]

My point stands. Even if you assume ALL illegals pay FULL taxes, they are still a net loss.

The only way for this not to be true would be for all illegals to make incomes such that they pay a legitimate share. That in effect means being in the top 20% for sure, maybe even the top 5-10% of taxpayers (since those are the only taxpayers that pay any meaningful contribution of tax revenues).

I'm guessing that roofer over there, and the gardener, and those housekeepers are not pulling down a few hundred grand a year each—which is what it takes to start paying not just their own share, but enough to subsidize other illegals so they come out a net positive.

Even a consumption tax doesn't matter. The total income of all illegals together multiplied by a consumption tax rate is still chump change. If you actually subtract the money they send back to Mexico, it's even less compelling.

[Aramike]

Really, the only way to do it is w/a Berlin Wall type fortification the length of the border, but no one has the political balls to do that.Neal responded best, but still I must point out that most every other nation in the world have far more draconian practices protecting their borders and are somewhat effective.

The Berlin Wall will not be needed.

[tater]

Found this:

Their median age was 32, with an average household of four, seven years education, an hourly wage of $5.45, an annual individual income of $8,982, and annual family income of $15,364.

At $15k a year, they'd pay zero income tax. Assume a full 15.3% FICA (ROFL), and you get $2350.69 a year in FICA. The average family size is 4, and there are maybe 12M in the country, but let's round up and say 5 million such families. That's a total tax revenue of $2350.69*5M=$11,753,450,000.

Almost 12 billion, wow. The Pentagon likely spends more per year on disposable cups than that. I've seen figures that suggest that illegals cost CA ALONE over 10 billion.

The "they pay taxes" argument is pure bunk, they cost more than they pay.

tater

PS—anyone, ANYONE, murdered by an illegal is a person who would have lived with the border controlled. Yes, I've seen the stats that illegals are LESS likely to be criminal, but the RATE is not the issue, since everyone they harm is an EXCESS harm. It's not like they displace other crimes with their lower rate, their lower rate adds to the whole. What is the cost of Americans murdered worth?

PPS—if you take the individual average income, and assume all illegals make that, and all 12M pay FICA, the total is all of $16,490,952,000. 16 billion. Still chump change, and only slightly more for the whole country than is spent in ONE STATE ALONE on illegals. Net loss, no matter how you do the math.

[GoldenRivet]

id dont know... id kinda go for the whole berlin wall thing.

creates tons of border patrol / LEO jobs and probably - in the long run - saves a lot more cash than paying for illegals to be here

[SteamWake]

You know speaking of walls... what ever happened to all that money that was for fences and 'virtual' fences... Did all that get like halfway done and then just quit?

Its like those storys fell off the face of the earth. I did some searching and could only come up with the old accounts.

[magic452]

I saw something on the news the other day about the virtual fence.
Spent a ton of money on it and it don't work. I understand that they can't get the sensors to work in the harsh environment, to many false positives.
The cameras also are having problems as well as the reporting system.
Apparently they are not building any more but trying to fix what they have.
Couldn't find a link to any of this, it was on some news program.

I go with the heavy fines for any company who hires an illegal, I think the laws are already on the books to do this.

Also I heard on the local news that Nevada's population had dropped by almost 30,000 since the rescission started and from what I've heard is that much of that number is illegals, I know a lot of people in the construction trades, maintenance, etc.

So they will go home if there is no incentive for them to stay.

And looking at the numbers we are paying a high price for the so called "Cheep Labor".

Magic

[Tribesman]

Thats a crock of excrement. The whole reason why people "hire" illegals is so they can pay them under the table.
When you pay someone off the books what do you do with the expenses and income related to that job when it comes to your own returns?

[iambecomelife]

Found this:



At $15k a year, they'd pay zero income tax. Assume a full 15.3% FICA (ROFL), and you get $2350.69 a year in FICA. The average family size is 4, and there are maybe 12M in the country, but let's round up and say 5 million such families. That's a total tax revenue of $2350.69*5M=$11,753,450,000.

Almost 12 billion, wow. The Pentagon likely spends more per year on disposable cups than that. I've seen figures that suggest that illegals cost CA ALONE over 10 billion.

The "they pay taxes" argument is pure bunk, they cost more than they pay.

tater

PS—anyone, ANYONE, murdered by an illegal is a person who would have lived with the border controlled. Yes, I've seen the stats that illegals are LESS likely to be criminal, but the RATE is not the issue, since everyone they harm is an EXCESS harm. It's not like they displace other crimes with their lower rate, their lower rate adds to the whole. What is the cost of Americans murdered worth?

PPS—if you take the individual average income, and assume all illegals make that, and all 12M pay FICA, the total is all of $16,490,952,000. 16 billion. Still chump change, and only slightly more for the whole country than is spent in ONE STATE ALONE on illegals. Net loss, no matter how you do the math.

Excellent mathematic points. I was looking at some budgetary figures for California's Department of Corrections. Their medical budget alone IIRC is about $10 billion. Given that illegals probably account for 35-50% of those costs, California could greatly reduce its shortfall simply by enforcing the law. I doubt that will happen, though. So-called "conservatives" want their slave labor, and liberals want their voters. :nope:

[Happy Times]

After a bunch of travel in the 3d world over the years, I long ago came up with my own, personal definition of "civilization."

Civilization exists in societies that spontaneously form lines.

If you stand in lines and don't frequently hear, "I'm sorry, were you ahead of me?" or "No, she was in front of me, take care of her first, thank you." you're someplace uncivilized.

Sneaking in is like cutting a line.

:haha::har:

So true.