Houston, we have a problem... [Archive] - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

sharkbit

04-12-10, 12:16 PM

The command module of Apollo 13 is currently in an awesome space museum(The Cosmosphere) in Hutchinson, Kansas, not too far from Wichita.

Well worth the visit if you are ever in the area. I've seen the museum a couple of times when I was out that way for work(:hmmm:...I'm heading out there next month. Might have to check it out again).

The museum traces the history of space flight from the end of WWII to the present in a very well thought out presentation.

The museum is also home of the Libert Bell 7(??)-the Mercury capsule that sank in the Pacific before they could recover it after the hatch "just blew" after Gus Grissom's flight. I remember quite a few years ago when they found it, recovered it, and the museum restored it.

:)

razark

04-12-10, 12:32 PM

The museum is also home of the Libert Bell 7(??)-the Mercury capsule that sank in the Pacific before they could recover it after the hatch "just blew" after Gus Grissom's flight. I remember quite a few years ago when they found it, recovered it, and the museum restored it.

The Liberty Bell 7 was lost in the Atlantic, not the Pacific. They didn't recover the hatch, which could have finally put to rest the question of why the hatch blew early.

NeonSamurai

04-12-10, 02:29 PM

I've been watching the tv series "from the earth to the moon". Its really good if you haven't seen it.

darius359au

04-12-10, 06:43 PM

For those that have never seen these , they are some of the photos of the service module taken by the crew!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/Darius359au/IMG_0041.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/Darius359au/IMG_0043.jpg

apparently one of the scenarios the crew did in their prep for the mission was having to use the LEM as a lifeboat -no one ever really thought it would be used so it wasn't done that often!

Platapus

04-12-10, 06:45 PM

I always wondered if Vostok 1 really completed one full orbit.

Launch was at 45 degrees 55 minutes North 063 Degrees 20 Minutes East
Landing was at 51 degrees 16 minutes North 045 degrees 58 minutes East

Since his flight was east-west, let's ignore the latitude for a moment.

Which means he landed about 18 degrees West of his launching point about 540 NM short of his launching site. So in traveling East (as his flight did) he completed not a 360 degree transit, but only a 342 degree transit as measured on the ground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vostok_1_orbit.png

Now in actuality, since the earth was rotating to the east in the same direction as his flight, he traveled more than 360 degrees. In fact he traveled 372 degrees or 1.2 orbits.

However, under the FIA's requirements, only suborbital flights use rotating earth models.

That and the fact that Gargarn's ejected from the spacecraft would have invalidated the record.

http://www.fai.org/sporting_code/sc8.asp

But, in any case, it was a pretty brave mission :yeah:

SteamWake

04-12-10, 09:16 PM

For those that have never seen these , they are some of the photos of the service module taken by the crew!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/Darius359au/IMG_0041.jpg

apparently one of the scenarios the crew did in their prep for the mission was having to use the LEM as a lifeboat -no one ever really thought it would be used so it wasn't done that often!

I can hear the words now... "Ohhhh ... explicitave" brave and courageous souls ! :rock:

razark

04-12-10, 09:37 PM

For those that have never seen these , they are some of the photos of the service module taken by the crew!

Keep in mind that this was the first time anyone had actually seen the damage. While in the LEM and Command Module, the crew couldn't see the side of the Service Module. There were no cameras to take pictures, no space walks, no telescopes or other spacecraft. They only knew what wasn't working. This was their first time seeing how bad the damage really was.

apparently one of the scenarios the crew did in their prep for the mission was having to use the LEM as a lifeboat -no one ever really thought it would be used so it wasn't done that often!

The thinking was along the lines that if anything went so bad that the Command Module wasn't able to support the crew, there probably wasn't a crew left at that point; if there was a crew, they probably wouldn't make it back to Earth.

A truly amazing story.

I always wondered if Vostok 1 really completed one full orbit.
Just because he didn't go for one full orbit doesn't mean he wasn't in orbit. If the retrorocket hadn't fired and brought him down, he would have drifted in orbit for a while. The spacecraft was stocked with provisions for several days to allow a natural orbital decay to bring him down.

bookworm_020

04-13-10, 01:34 AM

The Liberty Bell 7 was lost in the Atlantic, not the Pacific. They didn't recover the hatch, which could have finally put to rest the question of why the hatch blew early.

They did work out it out. They came to the concusion that it was the external hatch release cord had come loose. The redesign for the apollo missions was one of the reasons that the Apollo 1 crew was killed (they couldn't open the hatch fast enough)

razark

04-13-10, 08:25 AM

They did work out it out. They came to the concusion that it was the external hatch release cord had come loose. The redesign for the apollo missions was one of the reasons that the Apollo 1 crew was killed (they couldn't open the hatch fast enough)

The loose lanyard was Grissom's theory of what happened, and was accepted by some people, including Pad Leader Guenter Wendt. However, there was never a conclusive answer as to what really caused it.

But yes, the incident did lead to problems with the hatch of Apollo 1, including Grissom. Even if they had been able to undo the bolts and unlatch the hatch, they wouldn't have been able to open it against the pressure in the spacecraft, because the hatch opened inward.

Sailor Steve

04-13-10, 09:45 AM

I always wondered if Vostok 1 really completed one full orbit.

But, in any case, it was a pretty brave mission :yeah:
And it doesn't change the fact that he was still the first human being in space.

Unless Jules Verne and Herbert George Welles knew something we don't...

razark

04-13-10, 10:21 AM

And it doesn't change the fact that he was still the first human being in space.

Unless Jules Verne and Herbert George Welles knew something we don't...

There's also the conspiracy theories that Gagarin was not the first man in space, merely the first one to return alive and the first the Soviets acknowledge launching.

JSLTIGER

04-13-10, 12:07 PM

SteamWake

04-13-10, 12:26 PM

Woah they had busses? Why dident they just ride the buss home? :har:

(thats probably why it was altered) ;)

frau kaleun

04-13-10, 12:48 PM

Oops, looks like it got changed again!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2755/4518575538_2b9d0648e0_o.jpg

razark

04-13-10, 12:54 PM

The title of this thread is actually a misquote...no one ever said "Houston, we have a problem...", Lovell actually said "Houston, we've had a problem...we've had a main bus B undervolt." The line was changed for the film to make it more dramatic.

A lot of the movie was changed to be more dramatic. Not that the true story needed it. It just wouldn't have looked as exciting to people on the screen.

SteamWake

04-13-10, 12:58 PM

Oops, looks like it got changed again!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2755/4518575538_2b9d0648e0_o.jpg

My god.... its full of ... fur :har:

frau kaleun

04-13-10, 01:09 PM

http://www.icanhazgeekpet.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/godspeedmooncat.jpg

Jimbuna

04-13-10, 01:13 PM

http://blog.pumapac.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/spacecat.jpg

darius359au

04-13-10, 05:43 PM

The title of this thread is actually a misquote...no one ever said "Houston, we have a problem...", Lovell actually said "Houston, we've had a problem...we've had a main bus B undervolt." The line was changed for the film to make it more dramatic.

Jim Lovell's book "Lost Moon" or as its been renamed "Apollo 13" is an amazing read - one thing that comes out of it is the absolute professionalism of the crew , a situation were most people would be going 'Im a tea pot arrrrrrggh" ,the crew are calm ,(or as calm as they can be , you definitely get his "ohcrapohcrapohcrap" feeling from reading the book),and working the problems , the intensive training the astronauts had normally and the stepped up training before the missions stands out as a big reason for their survival ,(that and they were the luckiest 3 guys in the world at the time!).

razark

04-13-10, 08:01 PM

...the intensive training the astronauts had normally and the stepped up training before the missions stands out as a big reason for their survival ,(that and they were the luckiest 3 guys in the world at the time!).

Don't forget the amazing support of everyone working the problem back on Earth. They wouldn't ave gotten out of it without the professionalism and ingenuity of the ground crew.

The astronauts would never get anywhere if it wasn't for the (mostly unseen) thousands of people in Mission Control and the back rooms.

bookworm_020

04-13-10, 09:56 PM

Don't forget the amazing support of everyone working the problem back on Earth. They wouldn't ave gotten out of it without the professionalism and ingenuity of the ground crew.

The astronauts would never get anywhere if it wasn't for the (mostly unseen) thousands of people in Mission Control and the back rooms.

Agree!:up: The book covers them also and shows how much they put in to getting them home. Loved the bit about the bill Grumman sent North American for towing!:rotfl2:

darius359au

04-14-10, 03:34 AM

Agree!:up: The book covers them also and shows how much they put in to getting them home. Loved the bit about the bill Grumman sent North American for towing!:rotfl2:

I wonder if there's a copy of it anywhere - edit - found it :D:D

ITEM QTY Unit Description Account no. Unit Price 1. 400,001 MI Towing, $4.00 first mile, $1.00 each additional mile
Trouble call, fast service
$400,004.00 2. 1 ??? Battery Charge (road call + $.05 ???)
customer's jumper cables
4.05 3. 50# # oxygen at $10.00/lb
500.00 4. 1
sleeping accommodations for 2, no TV, air-conditioned,
with radio, modified American plan, with view NAS-9-1100 prepaid 5.

Additional guest in room at $8.00/night (1) Check out no
later than noon Fri. 4/17/70, accommodations not guaranteed beyond that time 32.00 6.

Water
no charge 7.

Personalized "trip-tik", including all transfers,
baggage handling, and gratuities
no charge

----------

sub-total
$400,540.05

20% commercial discount + 2% cash discount (net 30 days)
(-) 88,118.81

----------

total
$312,421.24

No taxes applicable (government contract)

OneToughHerring

04-14-10, 07:04 AM

I can hear the words now... "Ohhhh ... explicitave" brave and courageous souls ! :rock:

Yea well, it's not like they didn't have a bunch of volunteers lining up to volunteer to go up there.

Still, kewl photo.

frau kaleun

04-14-10, 07:22 AM

Personalized "trip-tik", including all transfers,
baggage handling, and gratuities
no charge
----------
sub-total
$400,540.05
20% commercial discount + 2% cash discount (net 30 days)
(-) 88,118.81
----------
total
$312,421.24
No taxes applicable (government contract)

:har:

That's hilarious, I'd forgotten about it.

But as others have said, Lovell's book is a must read.

razark

04-14-10, 08:00 AM

:har:

That's hilarious, I'd forgotten about it.

But as others have said, Lovell's book is a must read.

Of course, North American declined payment on it. Something about three previous trips hauling the LM and not having charged Grumman.

sharkbit

04-14-10, 08:09 AM

Jim Lovell's book "Lost Moon" or as its been renamed "Apollo 13" is an amazing read - one thing that comes out of it is the absolute professionalism of the crew , a situation were most people would be going 'Im a tea pot arrrrrrggh" ,the crew are calm ,(or as calm as they can be , you definitely get his "ohcrapohcrapohcrap" feeling from reading the book),and working the problems , the intensive training the astronauts had normally and the stepped up training before the missions stands out as a big reason for their survival ,(that and they were the luckiest 3 guys in the world at the time!).

I remember seeing an interview of Jim Lovell many years ago. He said he has been asked if they ever panicked. He basically stated that they could bounce around the ship saying "ohmygodohmygodohmygod!!!" for thirty minutes and at the end, where would they be? Nowhere. No closer to fixing the problem than where they were thirty minutes ago.
They calmly and professionally approached the problem, using their experience and hundreds, if not thousands, of hours of training to get themselves home, aided by alot of people on the ground, using their training and experience.
:salute::salute::salute:

:)

SteamWake

04-14-10, 01:22 PM

I loved the part in the movie (true or not) where ground control gathers pepole into a room and dumps a box full of apparent junk and tells them "Make a Co2 scrubber out of this stuff" "oh btw you have 4 hours" :o

No one said "It'll never work" or "Are you kidding?" nope they set right to it to solve the problem. Then relay how to repeat the process over the radio.

I cant help but wonder if that had happened now how it would have been handled.

razark

04-14-10, 02:47 PM

No one said "It'll never work" or "Are you kidding?" nope they set right to it to solve the problem. Then relay how to repeat the process over the radio.

I cant help but wonder if that had happened now how it would have been handled.

Those kind of people are still around. Times have changed, though. The Apollo program was an entirely different culture. If someone had a good idea, chances are it would get passed up the line to the people making decisions. There is a lot more "file the correct paperwork, by-the-book, proper channels" type thinking now. But if things got bad for a crew on a mission, those people would step up and do what they need to do.

Getting management to accept that they know what they're doing and that it's worth doing, that's a different story.

Onkel Neal

04-14-10, 11:23 PM

The Obama administration's vision for the future of manned space flight will bump the United States to "second or even third-rate" status as a space-faring nation, the commanders of three U.S. moon missions warned Wednesday.

The letter was signed by the first and last men to walk on the moon -- Neil Armstrong from Apollo 11 and Eugene Cernan from Apollo 17 -- and James Lovell, who commanded the heroic Apollo 13 flight.

Give him hell, guys. He's quickly becoming Jimmy Carter II. :nope:

TLAM Strike

04-15-10, 12:05 AM

Saw on CNN today that they may save the Orion and put it to use as a lifeboat on the ISS...

... Yea trans lunar spacecraft used as a LEO lifeboat, we got that already its called the Soyuz... :damn:

And for the Umpteenth time its pronounced Sa-use (http://www.jamesoberg.com/russian/ooze.html)... Why doesn't CNN listen to me yelling at it all day...

bookworm_020

04-15-10, 03:06 AM

I loved the part in the movie (true or not) where ground control gathers pepole into a room and dumps a box full of apparent junk and tells them "Make a Co2 scrubber out of this stuff" "oh btw you have 4 hours" :o

They had more than four hours. When enviroment support staff heard that the LEM was taking over as life boat, they realized the problem and started to work on it straight away. It was fully tested before it was relayed to the crew, around 28 hours from the accident to when it was installed.

Platapus

04-15-10, 04:38 PM

The Obama administration's vision for the future of manned space flight will bump the United States to "second or even third-rate" status as a space-faring nation, the commanders of three U.S. moon missions warned Wednesday.

Honestly, my reply would be "so what?" In our current economic state, I am not willing to spend cubic buttloads of money just for pride. :nope:

We have plenty of time. The Universe has been there for a long time, and will continue to be there for a long time. I am not saying we should abandon space exploration forever. But, I don't think that is a good way to spend our tax dollars at this time.

Pride is a luxury than can have a large price tag.

Platapus

04-15-10, 04:40 PM

No one said "It'll never work" or "Are you kidding?" nope they set right to it to solve the problem. Then relay how to repeat the process over the radio.

I cant help but wonder if that had happened now how it would have been handled.

When people's lives are at stake, I think you would be surprised at how well people can work together and get things done quickly. In an emergency, I have a great deal of faith in the American People. :yep:

SteamWake

04-15-10, 04:58 PM

Heh.. Obama gave a speech to the 'workers' at cape canaveral but there was a slight hitch...

"Is the president aware there are no workers here? We need to get some workers in here it is after all a speech to the workers" :haha:

It seems they dident invite or let in the target audiance. I think this was remidied at the last minute when some of the NASA people started pointing it out.

He is speaking before 200, extra hundred people here today only. It's invitation only. He has not invited a single space worker from this space port to attend. It's only academics and other high officials from outside of the country. Not one of them is invited to hear the President of the United States, on their own space port, speak today. Back to you Alex.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/geoffrey-dickens/2010/04/15/msnbc-anchor-spins-obama-after-nbc-reporter-slams-obama-nasa-cuts

Im sure it was just an oversight.

Platapus

04-15-10, 05:05 PM

Makes you wonder who is arranging these speeches. I wonder if it was a NASA executive who make the "invite" list?

TLAM Strike

04-15-10, 05:34 PM

Platapus

04-15-10, 06:03 PM

It would be better to invest our money in the "Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator" to blast the asteroids.

Pew pew.

:D

razark

04-15-10, 06:07 PM

Honestly, my reply would be "so what?" In our current economic state, I am not willing to spend cubic buttloads of money just for pride. :nope:

We have plenty of time. The Universe has been there for a long time, and will continue to be there for a long time. I am not saying we should abandon space exploration forever. But, I don't think that is a good way to spend our tax dollars at this time.

Pride is a luxury than can have a large price tag.

You do realize that NASA does not, in fact, simply stuff cash into rockets and shoot it into space, right?

The money spent by NASA goes to two things. It pays wages, and it buys products. The people who work for NASA and the contractors get some of that money. Those people then spend the money, putting it back into circulation. The space program keeps those people working. Spending money on NASA lets a scientist buy groceries. It lets an engineer make his car payment. It allows a janitor to pay rent. It lets a welder save to send his kid to college. It lets a secretary buy vegetables at the farmer's market. NASA pays to buy products. From advanced materials and spacecraft parts to office and cleaning supplies. The money gets spent for services. Transporting space station modules and people. Building satellites and buildings. Electricity, water, groundskeeping, telephones, plumbing, roofing, etc. The money pays for research, too. It pays to allow scientists to conduct research that might not be commercially viable. It pays grants the keep graduate students in schools. It pays scholarships to help students succeed.

One of the greatest benefits of the space program is the advancement of technology. Many products are developed from technology originally designed for spaceflight. Research in computers, robotics, medicine, materials, processes, and so on have been are still are being done by NASA. Much of this may not be something a private company can afford to or wants to pay for. Returns on investments may be so far in the future that private industry is unwilling to pay. Some technology is developed because of the working conditions in space. Power screwdrivers trace their lineage back to tools developed to allow astronauts on the moon to take core samples. The reflective sun screens in cars are made using techniques developed by NASA to shield spacecrafts from thermal radiation. Prothstetic limbs developed with robotics knowledge gained by designing Mars probes.

So, yeah. "Cubic buttloads of money just for pride."
:nope: indeed.

TLAM Strike

04-15-10, 06:08 PM

It would be better to invest our money in the "Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator" to blast the asteroids.

Pew pew.

:D

Is it sad that I know what your talking about? :O:

Platapus

04-15-10, 06:27 PM

The money spent by NASA goes to two things. It pays wages, and it buys products.

You are making two faulty assumptions.
1. Canceling manned space programs does not mean canceling all programs. The unmanned programs still need workers.

One of the greatest benefits of the space program is the advancement of technology. Many products are developed from technology originally designed for spaceflight. Research in computers, robotics, medicine, materials, processes, and so on have been are still are being done by NASA.

2. You are assuming that these technologies were linked exclusively to the manned space program. This has not been demonstrated. Unmanned research in space will also garner technological breakthroughs.

As I wrote, I am generally in favour of space exploration. If we were not saddled with two expensive wars, an economy that more through luck than skill managed to avoid the becoming the really great depression, and our spending habits for the last 15 years or so, I would be in favour of us pressing on with manned space exploration.

I just don't think it is the right time now.

I just wonder how many on this forum would have also complained if President Obama announced some big expensive manned space program? How many here would be complaining about another big government program, technological welfare, irresponsible spending?

In my opinion, we simply can't afford it at this time. Maybe in a few years when we get a little more recovered economically.

I want our decisions about manned space exploration to be made when it is economically responsible. Not when some old astronauts predict that we will become "a "second or even third-rate" status as a space-faring nation", as if this would be some terrible thing.

When we get on firmer economic ground, then to infinity and beyond. Until then, let's pay our bills first. Space can wait.

SteamWake

04-15-10, 06:27 PM

You do realize that NASA does not, in fact, simply stuff cash into rockets and shoot it into space, right?

LOL classic ! :salute:

Platapus

04-15-10, 06:32 PM

You do realize that NASA does not, in fact, simply stuff cash into rockets and shoot it into space, right?

With the costs of the EELV going to $200,000,000 per launch (and this is not counting the payload), I think NASA is insulating the rocket with cash. :D

http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/nexgen/EELV_main.htm

TLAM Strike

04-15-10, 06:57 PM

If we were not saddled with two expensive wars, an economy that more through luck than skill managed to avoid the becoming the really great depression, and our spending habits for the last 15 years or so, I would be in favour of us pressing on with manned space exploration.

I just don't think it is the right time now.
As I indicated in my last post a extensive space program could end the economic problems we currently have.

Current national debit: $11 Trillion
Estimated value of rare minerals on Eros: $ 26 Trillion (http://abundantplanet.org/files/Asteroid-Value-2007-prices--2009-08-11.pdf)
Question is what do you want to do with the remaining $15 Trillion? Buy the nation of Ghana?

As for expensive wars an extensive space program can help too...
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2148/ioncannon.jpg (http://img11.imageshack.us/i/ioncannon.jpg/)

razark

04-15-10, 07:38 PM

You are making two faulty assumptions.

Alright, I'll give you that. Most of that was my general anti-anti-space program rant.

1. Canceling manned space programs does not mean canceling all programs. The unmanned programs still need workers.

If we aren't going to space, why bother sending the robotic missions? I'm not planning on taking a trip to New Jersey any time soon, so why should I bother studying maps and reading travel information? Aside from that, under the current plan, NASA gets an increased budget. If there are programs that need workers, why are so many people either getting laid off, or living in fear of it?

When we get on firmer economic ground, then to infinity and beyond. Until then, let's pay our bills first. Space can wait.

You know what we haven't done for 38 years? We haven't gone beyond low Earth Orbit. There were a total of nine spaceflights beyond Earth. We went, we put down flags and footprints, we came back home, and we've done nothing else. How long are we going to wait? There's always "something else" that needs to be done before we can go explore. Now it's the economy. What will it be in two years? In ten years? In another thirty-eight years? You think our bills will be any more paid by then?

Imagine if Columbus had made his four trips to the Americas, and then Spain decided, "Well, we've been there, we've done that, we have other things to do", and never exploited the possibilities. Right now, we're cutting back on the human space flight. How long until someone decides that since we aren't sending people, we don't need to send robots? Or mapping missions? Since we don't have to worry about sending people for a while, we can cut spending by cutting these useless programs, too. I mean, we can always find ways to spend the money here. Was there nothing else we could have been doing in the 60s? Were there no other problems or wars that we should have been dealing with, instead of wasting our money in pissing contest with the Russians? We went to the moon and got nothing for it, except a few rocks and a few pictures.

Platapus

04-15-10, 07:48 PM

You know what we haven't done for 38 years? We haven't gone beyond low Earth Orbit.

And look at all the technical breakthroughs, and advancements we have made in those 38 years. I could support your argument if we had been technologically static for the past 38 years. We seem to have done pretty well in those four decades without a manned deep space program.

But I like I keep writing, don't get me wrong. I like space exploration and I think the United States should be engaged in it. If we had been a little more responsible with our spending for the past four decades, we would be in a better position to afford this program.

As they said in the movie "The Right Stuff" No bucks, no Buck Rogers. Well, we aint got the bucks.... at this time. Hopefully soon we will have the bucks.

But hey, this is just one guy's opinion. :shucks:

razark

04-15-10, 08:08 PM

..if we had been technologically static for the past 38 years.

I find that mildly amusing, considering how much of Constellation was basically ripped straight from the Apollo program.

As they said in the movie "The Right Stuff" No bucks, no Buck Rogers. Well, we aint got the bucks.... at this time. Hopefully soon we will have the bucks.

We've got the bucks. We're just spending them on other stuff. My main point is that the space program isn't exactly the huge money sink that people make it out to be.

But hey, this is just one guy's opinion. :shucks:

It's better than some I've dealt with. At least you aren't claiming the whole thing was faked.

TLAM Strike

04-15-10, 08:22 PM

And look at all the technical breakthroughs, and advancements we have made in those 38 years. I could support your argument if we had been technologically static for the past 38 years. We seem to have done pretty well in those four decades without a manned deep space program. Technolgical but not Technical breakthroughs. We have lost a lot of knowledge we learned with Apollo. NASA scavenged though scrap yards and garage sales to get parts of Apollo to study to build Constellation.

How have we done well without a manned deep space program? We have landed a probe on only one world in the outer solar system and done two flybys! The Mars program has been somewhat more successful but not by much as we have yet to return any samples to Earth. In fact we have only done one Sample Return mission since Apollo. How many labs can you fit in a probe and how many can you fit in a University on Earth?

What about are space infrastructure? We got one Government funded space station, and one privately funded station which is home to a few cockroaches. Earth has had single space stations in orbit since just after Apollo ended.

If only we listed to Stanislaw Ulam and Freeman Dyson we would have Space Stations in orbit of Saturn by now... :damn:

Platapus

04-15-10, 09:02 PM

I find that mildly amusing, considering how much of Constellation was basically ripped straight from the Apollo program.

Well, personally I like the Faget design and consider that the way to go.

We've got the bucks. We're just spending them on other stuff. My main point is that the space program isn't exactly the huge money sink that people make it out to be.

At least we can agree on your first sentence. As soon as we stop spending money on the other stuff, we then can be in a position to spend it on "The Right Stuff" (sorry I could not resist)

At least you aren't claiming the whole thing was faked.

You sure about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuwyY2DzO2I

I tell you what. Let's just ask Buzz Aldrin about this moon landing stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOo6aHSY8hU

Uh on second thought, let's not ask him. :D