View Full Version : DRM - Turn Lemons into Lemonade
McHub532
04-11-10, 03:38 PM
So.. here I am thinking; which is what I do a lot of because.. well.. it's free. :)
So, we all have to have an internet connection to play this game. Why not take that 'restriction' and turn it into something incredible and amazing?
I have some ideas:
When you speak to the radar guy or the sound guy (or anyone), the game is paused and you go into an internet javascript window that overlaps on top of the game and you have a video interface. The same (or more) questions or comments on the bottom, but the guy is an IRL guy dressed the part and responding as a real person would. Use the internet to offer the option (could be on/off option in gameplay window). This way you could modify the chat/conversation options greatly over time. You just change the video options on the Ubisoft server and you can have countless conversations (though a bit one-sided).
Various 'easter egg' type locations around the sub you can click on or find that will bring up the same javascript overlay interface to show you a few different things: Perhaps IRL historical facts and photos from meuseums about things on the ship, perhaps a little easter-egg about a modder here and how they fixed some problem that came out in the Stock Version (ignore this option, it would crash the internet having such vast needs of DB space for this one). :haha:
Video Chat. Sort of like Skype. Instead of the event camera popping up have a little window in the corner where you can video chat with those in your wolfpack?
There are loads of more things you can do. Since we are forced to have an internet connection with the game; why can't it become a positive thing?
What do you think?
kylania
04-11-10, 04:21 PM
You can do all of that without DRM. :) The only way to make DRM into lemonade at this point is to remove it. I'm quite sure they've crested sales by now what with the DRM combined with bugs, so remove it and I bet they'll get even more sales with the DRM removed and 1.2 patch out.
McHub532
04-11-10, 04:24 PM
You can do all of that without DRM. :) The only way to make DRM into lemonade at this point is to remove it. I'm quite sure they've crested sales by now what with the DRM combined with bugs, so remove it and I bet they'll get even more sales with the DRM removed and 1.2 patch out.
I'm trying to wrap my mind around why they would ever remove it. Let me try and lay out what I'm thinking.
1. Ubisoft decides DRM is important enough to lose out on 60% sales of a product because of DRM.
2. Ubisoft turns out a piece of software (whatever the reasons) that is sub-par (well, for most companies anyway).
3. Time passes....
Why would they ever remove DRM? The reasons they wanted it so bad haven't been removed have they? And they've already told 60% of their customers to go Frag off. Right?
Why would they remove the DRM? Why would they suddenly care?
longdog499
04-11-10, 04:33 PM
You can do all of that without DRM. :) The only way to make DRM into lemonade at this point is to remove it. I'm quite sure they've crested sales by now what with the DRM combined with bugs, so remove it and I bet they'll get even more sales with the DRM removed and 1.2 patch out.
Well said sir!
Nisgeis
04-11-10, 04:54 PM
Turning lemons into lemonade is a good idea, but I think it's more likely it will turn into a whine. :yeah:.
McHub532
04-11-10, 04:55 PM
Turning lemons into lemonade is a good idea, but I think it's more likely it will turn into a whine. :yeah:.
HA! Whine.. not wine... hee-hee.
I love the people on this forum. They're as weird and quirky as me. :)
KiwiVenge
04-11-10, 05:47 PM
Why would they ever remove DRM?
If authentication server overhead > new sale revenues
McHub532
04-11-10, 05:48 PM
If authentication server overhead > new sale revenues
Maybe we don't have the answers to what I'm really trying to discover.
Why now? They didn't care before about a vast chunk of their loyal customers. It cost them money that they were willing to write off before.
What changed?
KiwiVenge
04-11-10, 05:58 PM
Maybe we don't have the answers to what I'm really trying to discover.
Why now? They didn't care before about a vast chunk of their loyal customers. It cost them money that they were willing to write off before.
What changed?
From UBI's perspective the DRM was put in place to increase profit by slowing down piracy, especially in the early days when sales are at their highest.. Later on, once the DRM overhead becomes a greater cost then the profits of selling new games then to me it would make sense to drop it because it is cutting into over all profits.
I really do not think 'caring' about their customers has much to do with it unfortunately. They are doing what they think is best to turn maximum profits in the long run.
McHub532
04-11-10, 06:22 PM
From UBI's perspective the DRM was put in place to increase profit by slowing down piracy, especially in the early days when sales are at their highest.. Later on, once the DRM overhead becomes a greater cost then the profits of selling new games then to me it would make sense to drop it because it is cutting into over all profits.
I really do not think 'caring' about their customers has much to do with it unfortunately. They are doing what they think is best to turn maximum profits in the long run.
I guess I don't understand a company that does that as thinking 'long run' or long term.
Crap on your customer base and when you go out of business you are making zero profits.
Don't get me wrong, I completely understand that a vast majority of business do exactly that. I guess maybe that's why 95% of all business fail in the first 5 years. And of those that make it, 95% fail in the next five years.
How long has Ubisoft been in business? Is the 'global market' keeping them alive? Enough customers out there that even if you piss your entire customer base off.. there are newbies that don't know that you suck that will buy your product anyway?
Just pondering things... thinking again. :)
KiwiVenge
04-11-10, 06:28 PM
Oh don't get me wrong, I am not agreeing with their methods they used. In my opinion a DRM that alienates more legit buyers then it prevents pirates is counter productive.
Hard to say what the real numbers are, don't think any of us will ever know.
McHub532
04-11-10, 06:30 PM
Oh don't get me wrong, I am not agreeing with their methods they used. In my opinion a DRM that alienates more legit buyers then it prevents pirates is counter productive.
Hard to say what the real numbers are, don't think any of us will ever know.
I think the real test of money flow is this:
If Ubisoft lives to make SH6.... if they think they made out good with the profit they will keep the DRM again. Or require some sort of DNA test in addition to DRM and also a live webcam feed so they can see your mother (or court appointed certifiying purchaser) over your shoulder verifying you bought the game.
(/sarcasm)
If ubisoft makes an SHVI, it is going to be for xbox!
mcarlsonus
04-11-10, 09:14 PM
Well, shoot fellers! It ain't the only time they've tripped over their priorities! Certainly I'm not the only person who remembers the drubbing they took over Starforce...am I?...guys?...guys?...now I'm old AND lonely!
KiwiVenge
04-11-10, 09:52 PM
Well, shoot fellers! It ain't the only time they've tripped over their priorities! Certainly I'm not the only person who remembers the drubbing they took over Starforce...am I?...guys?...guys?...now I'm old AND lonely!
:har:
I was here for the Starfarce SH3 release experience as well. :damn:
Missed out on SH4 though, was too busy with WoW and LOTRO at the time.:88)
Capt_Sluggo
04-11-10, 10:04 PM
I happen to like your ideas McHub. The mechanism that now serves as a DRM could morph into something that instead adds a dimension.
Ubi's profit interests would be best served if they would meld their desire for an online license check with the desires of the customer. Why not make SH with a playable, but limited, offline mode for those traveling or temporarily without network? For example, continue a mission in progress or play from a selection of war patrols?
For much more, connect online. Advanced (probability generated) enemy AI, the possibility of player-controlled merchants, not to mention the things you dreamed up.
I'm sure that the cynics will now "set me straight" by re-emphasizing the greedy, shortsighted, uncaring and basically inept nature of Ubisoft management. Or lecture about the nuances of MMO-type technology. Still, I wonder what would happen if 5,000 or so registered SH5 owners voiced the same sort of positive "what ifs" that you did.
:sunny:
McHub532
04-11-10, 10:17 PM
I happen to like your ideas McHub. The mechanism that now serves as a DRM could morph into something that instead adds a dimension.
Ubi's profit interests would be best served if they would meld their desire for an online license check with the desires of the customer. Why not make SH with a playable, but limited, offline mode for those traveling or temporarily without network? For example, continue a mission in progress or play from a selection of war patrols?
For much more, connect online. Advanced (probability generated) enemy AI, the possibility of player-controlled merchants, not to mention the things you dreamed up.
I'm sure that the cynics will now "set me straight" by re-emphasizing the greedy, shortsighted, uncaring and basically inept nature of Ubisoft management. Or lecture about the nuances of MMO-type technology. Still, I wonder what would happen if 5,000 or so registered SH5 owners voiced the same sort of positive "what ifs" that you did.
:sunny:
I like your attitude. We can't change the past; but maybe we can help mold the future.
kylania
04-11-10, 10:20 PM
Ubi's profit interests would be best served if they would meld their desire for an online license check with the desires of the customer.
This, and pretty much every other "online DRM" system coming out now has to do with two things only. One, making sure no one but Ubisoft gets money from these products by eliminating the ability to resell a game. Two, make the players dependent on DLC. Ship a half finished game and dribble out excluded "DLC" content $5-$10 at a time over the course of a year or so, then repeat the whole process with the new version of the game.
Customer's desires have nothing to do with DRM/OSP or any of this, just our money. :DL They think they'll get more profit if we can ONLY buy from them instead of realizing they'll get more if we WANT to buy from them.
Engel der Vernichtung
04-12-10, 12:25 AM
Well, for my part, I bought SH3 and loved it, and I bought SH4 and loved that too. But until they knock off this DRM (deleted), I will not buy SHV5.
NefariousKoel
04-12-10, 01:23 AM
I've been waiting for a hysterical, curse-laced post about the supposed flood of anti-DRM threads around here (and how they should shaddap) but it's not happened yet.
Oh well, I'll keep watching. Maybe go make some popcorn in the meantime. :smug:
supposedtobeworking
04-12-10, 01:35 AM
I'm in agreement with those who think some sort of DLC is the motive. The online DRM has most certainly not stopped the piracy. The game has been cracked and you can easily find a fully cracked, patched, working game with no internet connection required to play as easily as you can find a cracked version of any other game that's been released without the DRM. So to me it is obvious that Ubisoft has their sights set on something else down the road-what exactly I don't know but you can be sure it will cost more money (even after you paid for the game). That would explain why they don't listen to the overwhelming majority of customers who want the online DRM to be removed.
Adriatico
04-12-10, 01:57 AM
I'm in agreement with those who think some sort of DLC is the motive. The online DRM has most certainly not stopped the piracy. The game has been cracked and you can easily find a fully cracked, patched, working game with no internet connection required to play as easily as you can find a cracked version of any other game that's been released without the DRM.
You can find all sorts of stupid links at web... but SH5 is not unlocked 100%... as far as i understand it is Assasin's Creed 2 that is fully unlocked. (DRM failed)
AC2 is very popular game that triggered "piracy renown and prestige" - contrary to poor SH5...
It is amazing that the same crowd that plays "black" AC2 - is promising to buy original Witcher 2 as reward to fair and PC-users devoted approach of Poland based team.
:hmmm:
Ok so DRM has failed to protect this game from piracey! Who can blame UBI from wanting to protect there product from the pirates, after all they have ploughed money into the dev of this game and want to see a return.
Maybe DRM was ill thought out, but those of you that are constantly bitching about it cannot blame them surely? My game has dropped once, maybe twice since buying it, yes i will be annoyed if my internet conn goes down, but then again i will just play a different game, simple.
Instead of bitching all the time how about DRM why don't some of you whiners, sorry i meant to say, people that feel persecuted, come up with a way of protecting the product, rather than slag it off?
Instead of bitching all the time how about DRM why don't some of you whiners, sorry i meant to say, people that feel persecuted, come up with a way of protecting the product, rather than slag it off?
:nope:
And who's bitching? The "DRM mod fix" solved the flawed DRM... it works nicely without net connection! Take that! :har:
:nope:
And who's bitching? The "DRM mod fix" solved the flawed DRM... it works nicely without net connection! Take that! :har:
My point is, does this no make it easier to pirate? Surely there are some bright sparks out there (obviously me not included) that work for UBi, EA and other large game developers that can come up with someting that protects the buyer? :doh:
My point is, does this no make it easier to pirate? Surely there are some bright sparks out there (obviously me not included) that work for UBi, EA and other large game developers that can come up with someting that protects the buyer? :doh:
I'm sure they could come out with something else that would make more acceptable not only to defent their product, but also not alienating potential buyers of their products.
I wonder why UBI and others don't bother follow the web links to catch those that provide the downloads.
Just search on google for a game name and 1st thing it lists are lists and lists of links to pirated games... So isn't just because exist millions of pirates out there. But probably is very convenient that few of them exist creating those cracked download links that no one seem to stop it... Because software houses either don't bother with their products or prefer crying being victims of rape under World's eyes (or at least causing that impression)... So that their lobbies could be increase the chance of success for arguments during political changes.
Sub Marauder
04-12-10, 08:37 AM
Ant-piracy tactics seem to hurt legit players than those who pirate. Parites don't even have to worry about this once the game is cracked, and it usually is eventually. If anything, DRM is turning legit players into pirates just so they don't have to deal with this junk. The whole system is just going to backfire.
Feuer Frei!
04-12-10, 08:51 AM
as far as i understand it is Assasin's Creed 2 that is fully unlocked. (DRM failed)
Not quiet, main mission is playable, however side quests and a few other things not playable.(And no, i do not have a black copy, nor do i condone piracy).
Feuer Frei!
04-12-10, 08:59 AM
I wonder why UBI and others don't bother follow the web links to catch those that provide the downloads.
It is nigh impossible to "trace" links to a particular location...
The links are in most cases linked to a "dummy" server, and, to boot, a lot of these people move around incredibly, ie locations.
I saw a doco a fair few years ago on SBS that showcased how hackers and the like set themselves up in run-down warehouses, old office buildings etc etc and ran their "businesses" from these premises.
These people where very well informed and if they got wind of the law enforcement agencies bearing down on them, they would pick up (in some cases a single server, and peripherals!) and run their dealings from somewhere else.
Very hard to pin these people down. And...they aren't stupid.
It is nigh impossible to "trace" links to a particular location...
The links are in most cases linked to a "dummy" server, and, to boot, a lot of these people move around incredibly, ie locations.
I saw a doco a fair few years ago on SBS that showcased how hackers and the like set themselves up in run-down warehouses, old office buildings etc etc and ran their "businesses" from these premises.
These people where very well informed and if they got wind of the law enforcement agencies bearing down on them, they would pick up (in some cases a single server, and peripherals!) and run their dealings from somewhere else.
Very hard to pin these people down. And...they aren't stupid.
It is true that they (the crackers) aren't stupid but the stupid thing is... search for name of a game and majority of the times only 3 or 4 (well known download sites) pop out at top of google list. Now this isn't matter of be stupid or not but a convenience perhaps...
I own a software house and saw this happening I'm sure that I'd do anything necessary to stop these download sites providing such links and also google to remove the upper rates of those links from their list as well.
So either software houses don't bother or is a convenient with someother aim in mind.
Cheers
Kptlt_Lynch
04-12-10, 11:08 AM
If ubisoft makes an SHVI, it is going to be for xbox!
I hate to say it, but thats probably the truth.
BTW - DRM has been bypassed and the campain is working. I have a legal copy installed but the DRM has been removed. So while it took a few weeks longer then anticipated... DRM has been busted.
I'm trying to wrap my mind around why they would ever remove it. Let me try and lay out what I'm thinking.
1. Ubisoft decides DRM is important enough to lose out on 60% sales of a product because of DRM.
2. Ubisoft turns out a piece of software (whatever the reasons) that is sub-par (well, for most companies anyway).
3. Time passes....
Why would they ever remove DRM? The reasons they wanted it so bad haven't been removed have they? And they've already told 60% of their customers to go Frag off. Right?
Why would they remove the DRM? Why would they suddenly care?
Because the aim of DRM is in most cases to delay the leak of the software onto the pirate scene until after the official release. Not locking down the software perpetually. That would be a reason to remove it. In this case though, I think the DRM is too tightly integrated into the software to simply do away with because of that reason, so it might be left in even though the main window of usefulness has passed.
Because the aim of DRM is in most cases to delay the leak of the software onto the pirate scene until after the official release.
Yes, most probably developers realized that the battle between DRM and piracy is like the one between tank and infantry, or plane and AAA -- one day you win, another your opponent. It is like a race and one of the major reasons cited for use of DRM is to prevent early cracking (before or in the early month after release, which is the time most sales are probably made with a game). But the use of DRM seems to have gotten out of hand, customers are worth off than pirates, and customers have no added-value of a better products printed detailed manual, maps etc. anymore.
Ironically, this new OSP-DRM didn't even prevent cracking for more than a few days, but it suppressed sales for weeks, and perhaps weeks to come. And taught a lot of people to be careful with/stay away from any Ubisoft product in the future, with or without OSP-DRM. Ironic side-effect.
I wonder at the cost of it all. The lost sales, the need to set up servers and pay technicians around the clock to maintain them. What is the point?
Picture this: in a year or two how many people will still be playing Assassins Creed 2 or Splinter Cell conviction? Not many I'd bet, but UBI will still have to maintain their DRM apparatus as there still would be trickle of new and existing players with these games. Though by then the cost of maintaining the DRM would surely overtake the minor revenue made.
I wonder at the cost of it all. The lost sales, the need to set up servers and pay technicians around the clock to maintain them. What is the point?
Picture this: in a year or two how many people will still be playing Assassins Creed 2 or Splinter Cell conviction? Not many I'd bet, but UBI will still have to maintain their DRM apparatus as there still would be trickle of new and existing players with these games. Though by then the cost of maintaining the DRM would surely overtake the minor revenue made.
If they haven't made the server end of their DRM solution independent of the games that implement them, I'd be very surprised. They will maintain their DRM infrastructure for as long as they have games on the market that implement them. No matter the titles.
McHub532
04-12-10, 01:50 PM
I wonder at the cost of it all. The lost sales, the need to set up servers and pay technicians around the clock to maintain them. What is the point?
Picture this: in a year or two how many people will still be playing Assassins Creed 2 or Splinter Cell conviction? Not many I'd bet, but UBI will still have to maintain their DRM apparatus as there still would be trickle of new and existing players with these games. Though by then the cost of maintaining the DRM would surely overtake the minor revenue made.
At which point, it won't be cost effective to keep the server up. Close the server down.. only a few people complain... and the company moves on.
Adriatico
04-12-10, 02:23 PM
Not quiet, main mission is playable, however side quests and a few other things not playable.(And no, i do not have a black copy, nor do i condone piracy).
No Mate,
All side misionos are playable... :up:
- - -
Right Neal, no more explanations...
Because the aim of DRM is in most cases to delay the leak of the software onto the pirate scene until after the official release. Not locking down the software perpetually. That would be a reason to remove it. In this case though, I think the DRM is too tightly integrated into the software to simply do away with because of that reason, so it might be left in even though the main window of usefulness has passed.
If Ubi does not have a OSP free copy of SHV they are totally daft. Of ourse, the inclusion of the OSP does reveal they have failed to think things through.
Kptlt_Lynch
04-12-10, 06:18 PM
Without getting into it too much, UBI failed with DRM because all the nessasary files to advance in the game are on the users computer. The DRM offers nothing in terms of game functionality or copy protection other then modifying a few files.
All that work for a FAIL.
And the result is legit players being alienated, tollerate not being to play a game they paid money for, or resorting to removing software protection.
Seriously, first time in my life I had to hack a game I paid for. Customer satisfaction FAIL!
McHub532
04-12-10, 06:20 PM
Where I strongly support the right of people to voice their opinions; I feel I should offer the disclaimer that I started this thread to take what we did not have control over (DRM) and try and evolve it into something that we could actually find useful and an improvement to the game.
I just don't want to be thought of as the person that started the riot. :)
supposedtobeworking
04-12-10, 07:21 PM
It's not you, it's Ubisoft. And the hope is that this "riot" will result in a change-I like the games that Ubisoft releases, but I will refuse to support them as long as they refuse to listen to their customers.
As to the tracking/crackdown on the pirate sources. It comes down to the interpretation of the local laws of point A versus point B. And throw in torrents and now you have to contend with not only multiple sources, but the wording of the laws that you're trying to prosecute a person for breaking. Actual possession of illegal material in some cases isn't a crime for instance. Only the means of obtaining/distributing. Distribution in part versus entirety of material is another example.
Also, it is a fine line between invasion of privacy and prevention of violating copyright law. My ISP for example runs automatic checks for download of videos from known illegal IP ranges and sends a turn off notice to the cable modem. While to some degree the ISP is within their rights given the wording of their EULA, people have sued for and won on the basis of invasion of privacy.
At which point, it won't be cost effective to keep the server up. Close the server down.. only a few people complain... and the company moves on.
Well this is why I am against such a DRM scheme(and things like Steam)! What happens if I want to relive an old classic 5-10 years down the line? Recently I played Betrayal at Krondor and System Shock. If everything is now going to be constant internet connection, encrypted files and all the other crap, then such a thing will be impossible!
The title " DRM - Turn Lemons into Lemonade" should be renamed to " DRM - Turn Lemons into Piss".
Sorry I couldn't resist, I tried so hard!!:har:
TteFAboB
04-13-10, 11:18 AM
I think the real test of money flow is this:
If Ubisoft lives to make SH6.... if they think they made out good with the profit they will keep the DRM again. Or require some sort of DNA test in addition to DRM and also a live webcam feed so they can see your mother (or court appointed certifiying purchaser) over your shoulder verifying you bought the game.
(/sarcasm)
That's a terrible idea, since it would cause great difficulty for President Barack Obama to play the game uncontroversially. :ping:
Apparently many multiplayer games have DRMs almost as finicky as SH5's. Today Taleworlds's authenticating server went down, and thus players cannot play the Mount & Blade: Warbands game they paid for on multiplayer. Any time the authenticating server breaks a nail or calls for routine polishing we just have to suck it up, or if the taste is too bitter go squeeze a lemonade or watch a video on prostate exams until the server is back up. Left 4 Dead also won't work if Steam's servers are down, and who knows how many other games.
This model is a burden on the customer and indeed more to the likes of piss than lemons, and if you wanted to make a lemonade out of it then DRMs should be designed with room for these inconveniences in mind, allowing the game to run on "pirate mode" for 8 or 12 hours when the server or the internet is down before requiring authentication again, time enough to have things set back in order. That's the least a company caring for its customers would do. How this would work, I don't know, because I'm not a programmer striving to provide the best product to my customers, I'm just a customer feeling like a sucker sucking on lemons. Maybe you get one "pirate mode" ticket per authentication, which has to be recycled at the authentication server every time you want another off-line run. Which is not a good idea either, because then someone would have the great idea of charging for these tickets, and making it all pay-to-play like an arcade: insert coin.
In the end the only lemonade that can be had is passing the DRM through the squeezer, and the grinder, and the blender, and the microwave. When it no longer burdens the customer, who can then play his game whenever, wherever, that's when I'll toast my lemonade with you, and it won't taste like nuts anymore. :woot:
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