plane crash near Smolensk, Polish president on board

[kranz]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8612825.stm

the total number of passengers is unknown, some sources claim that 132 ppl were on board.

unbelievable....

[VonHesse]

Words are just that, but my heart and prayers go out to your entire nation tonight.

[Schroeder]

Very sad tragedy. My thoughts are with the victims.

But maybe something positive can come from that. With Kazcynski gone the relationship between Poland and Germany might become what it should have been for the last two decades: One of trust and friendship.

[Jimbuna]

What a sad and terrible tragedy :nope:

[MaciejK]

I never supported Lech Kaczynski but he was the President of my country. All the people onboard the plane had families, friends. Great tragedy:(

[SteamWake]

my prayers go out to the friends and familys of the deceased.

[Feuer Frei!]

Has there been any rumblings about this not being an accident?

One of the flight recorders has recently been retrieved from the crash site.
P.S. My condolences to all involved.

[Feuer Frei!]

Just heard on BBC World that Vladimir Putin will personally head the investigations into the plane crash!
I may be out of the loop here perhaps but, why would HE be personally heading this investigation?

[Nicolas]

This is terrible...
My sympathy to the polish.

If Putin wants to be in charge is problably he wants to show that for Russia or him this was very significative. I see it that way.

[CaptainHaplo]

To all those who lost someone dear, you have my condolences. To the nation of Poland, having lost a leader, you have my sympathy.

Perhaps all can remember that no matter your "political" view, every person on that plane was held in someone's heart, and that the loss causes pain. Take a moment to share that pain and send a little love to those this tragedy has personally impacted without concern for the rest - there will be time for the rest later.

As for Russia investigating - it happened within their borders. Let us give those who have lost a day before we start with conspiracy theories, eh?

[August]

As for Russia investigating - it happened within their borders. Let us give those who have lost a day before we start with conspiracy theories, eh?

Or at least put them in their own thread. My condolences to the Polish people.

[Feuer Frei!]

My apologies.

[tater]

Condolences to the Poles here, and to the families of the victims.

[Storm87]

Now we know the exact number of casualities - 96 (88 passengers and 8 crew members.) No one survived. Tu-154M crashed during 4th attempt to land. It hit the trees in heavy fog, few hundred meters away from the airfield. So a mistake of the pilot and bad weather conditions are most probably cause.

In crash died our president, Lech Kaczyñski, first lady Maria, along with 12 members of parlament, 2 senators, 3 deputy ministers, and many others parlament and government highly officials.

Also 3 persons from presidential staff, 9 priests (most of them were chaplains), 6 army generals, 15 WWII combatants and 8 secret service guards. :(


Here in Poland, we all (no matter of our political preferences) regreat that loss. Irreplaceable, extraordinary persons died there. :cry: :cry:


(sorry for bad english)

[STEED]

A black day for Poland.

[Onkel Neal]

Now we know the exact number of casualities - 96 (88 passengers and 8 crew members.) No one survived. Tu-154M crashed during 4th attempt to land. It hit the trees in heavy fog, few hundred meters away from the airfield. So a mistake of the pilot and bad weather conditions are most probably cause.

In crash died our president, Lech Kaczyñski, first lady Maria, along with 12 members of parlament, 2 senators, 3 deputy ministers, and many others parlament and government highly officials.

Also 3 persons from presidential staff, 9 priests (most of them were chaplains), 6 army generals, 15 WWII combatants and 8 secret service guards. :(


Here in Poland, we all (no matter of our political preferences) regreat that loss. Irreplaceable, extraordinary persons died there. :cry: :cry:


(sorry for bad english)


Well said. My condolences to your country's loss. This must really be a black day for you. Your friends here share your sorrow, mate. :cry:

Neal

http://www.futureradio.co.uk/files/images/PolandFlag.jpg

[tater]

4th attempt to land?

Hard to believe they had no ILS anyplace a President would fly to.

Sad indeed.

[Storm87]

This is also enormous tragedy for our military forces... Another one. Just 2 years ago we've lost 16 top commanders of our air forces (and 4 crew members) in C-295M "CASA" crash in Miros³awiec. :cry:

And now actually all army General Staff is gone... We lost today 6 head commanders of all kind of forces. :cry:

lt. gen. BRONIS£AW KWIATKOWSKI (operational forces)
gen. ANDRZEJ B£ASIK (air forces)
gen. TADEUSZ BUK (land forces)
gen. WOJCIECH POTASIÑSKI (special forces)
v. adm. ANDRZEJ KARWETA (navy)
gen. KAZIMIERZ GILARSKI (chief of general staff)

:cry:

4th attempt to land?

Hard to believe they had no ILS anyplace a President would fly to.

Sad indeed.

Yes, outdated Smolensk military airfield have no ILS system. :(

[tater]

Storm87, what a terrible loss for Poland. Again, my deepest sympathy for your country.

[HunterICX]

A sad day for Poland, and to think they where underway to attend to the 70th anniversary of the memorial of Katyn..:(

my thoughts go the the Polish people that lost too much today.http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/9577/abnsalute.gif

HunterICX

[CCIP]

Again, condolences to Poland. Both on my part personally and as a Russian. This really is a national loss - it's one thing to lose the president or any single political figure, but to lose that many crucial and in many instances remarkable people is just beyond all politics. :(

I hope the causes of this are established, so far everything is pointing to human error. Whatever it is though, something has gone really wrong.

[Onkel Neal]

Just a friendly reminder, let's stay on topic from here on, please.

[Platapus]

De mortius nil nisi bonum dicendum est
Basic human dignity should move us at least honour the dead and show sympathy towards their families before engaging in petty squabbling about opinions about the character of the dead.

I did not know these people. But I know people who have died and people who have lost loved ones. I don't have to know these dead in order to empathize with the living about their loss.

[Onkel Neal]

...on topic.

[sonar732]

Hopefully there won't be a power vacuum created and there will be a smooth transition. My condolences to the families and the country as a whole!

[Storm87]

Here You can find a full list of those who died in this disaster. This is a final list - 89 passengers and 7 crew members.

http://www.mmlodz.pl/8679/2010/4/10/lista-ofiar-katastrofy-w-smolensku?category=news

And here, gallery with photos of most of them. In upper right corner you will find arrows to navigate. "Nastêpne" (next) and "Poprzednie" (back).

http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/gid,12158338,title,Zgineli-w-katastrofie---zobacz-zdjecia,galeria.html


Everything is in polish, but i think that words have not much importance here. :cry:

[Sailor Steve]

A terrible tragedy.

Storm87, thanks for that link. It makes it more real and harder to ignore when you see the faces of the victims.

Sometimes it's too easy to say "So what? I didn't know them". I still don't know them, but at least now to me they were real people.

[Jimbuna]

Appreciate the link Storm http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[Tribesman]

De mortius nil nisi bonum dicendum est

Surely that only counts till some time after the funerals are over, its not like anyone would go slagging the dead straight away is it.
Seriously, if it wasn't for the gap of decency that seperates the event and the legacy, some fool might start ranting about Polish politics at an inoppertune time.

[UnderseaLcpl]

My condolences to the Polish people and the president's family. I don't know anything about him, but his station commands respect. <salute>

[Storm87]

One more picture I would like to add.





http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/395/18c695fee9.jpg

[Sailor Steve]

Nice tribute!:sunny:

[Jimbuna]

Nice tribute!:sunny:

I'll second that :up:

[TLAM Strike]

Saw it on the news at work today. Just totally horrible.

I guess Katyn wasn't done taking lives... :cry:

My sympathies to the Polish people.



...Tu-154 "Careless". I guess NATO codenamed that one right. A plane that's careless with people's lives... :damn:

[Schroeder]

Even the best planes can't land in thick fog without ILS support from the airport. So maybe we shouldn't blame it on the plane until we know more about it....

[TheSatyr]

My sympathies to the people of Poland and to the families of those that lost their lives.

[Polak]

Very sad times in Poland, I just hope that things will change for the better after this.

Here are some pictures from today when the Presidents remains arrived to Warsaw.


http://m.onet.pl/_m/adcacb570524fe24330b6a12f6208462,21,1.jpg (http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/150340,21,1,pokaz.html)
http://m.onet.pl/_m/a0a9aa7da4d08674b14dedb900a5fe88,21,1.jpg (http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/150340,21,3,pokaz.html)
http://m.onet.pl/_m/13a1ef910f615102951726db657ce137,21,1.jpg (http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/150340,21,5,pokaz.html)
http://m.onet.pl/_m/4ce059ff6b1a043f3b62e1b13d0e78a9,21,1.jpg (http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/150340,21,6,pokaz.html)
http://m.onet.pl/_m/8535cbe24cc4897ca5f3760ef4eb668c,21,1.jpg (http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/150340,21,12,pokaz.html)
http://m.onet.pl/_m/588ad8a89262aa4da5726a3b7e6750ee,21,1.jpg (http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/150340,21,15,pokaz.html)
http://m.onet.pl/_m/f614111e3fa85646a3222e299b4c3e87,21,1.jpg (http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/150340,21,24,pokaz.html)
http://m.onet.pl/_m/27a6b2001bfd6007c93c78d369d35169,21,1.jpg (http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/150340,21,0,pokaz.html)

[CptSimFreak]

...Tu-154 "Careless". I guess NATO codenamed that one right. A plane that's careless with people's lives... :damn:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8612915.stm

....yes yes....when I name an object, that object physically becomes what I've named it. Hitting a wall with a head indeed. :damn:

[ReallyDedPoet]

My sympathies to the Polish people.

[Happy Times]

My deepest condolences from up north to the Polish people because of this tragic incident.

That it happened on a trip to pay homage and commemorate the victims of Katyn makes this even more tragic.
I can only imagine the sadness that Polish people feel at this time.

RIP to all, they will never be forgotten.

http://www.janpirog.com/Polish%20Flag%20Half%20Mast.jpg

[Storm87]

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/04/poland_in_mourning.html

[CaptainHaplo]

As tragic as this event is - and with all my heart I offer condolences to the nation of Poland, I do want to point out that this has done quite a bit to bring to light an important part of history.

Not many knew of the Katyn Forest Massacre, and while this attention is painful due to its cause, it is only fitting that the government of Poland show that even today, it stands in both grief and pride, for the sacrifices of so many.

Lest we ever forget.

May all the victims of tragedy - Requiescat In Pace

[Terrax]

I saw a story on this crash on CNN. I realize that the news is biased, but I was touched by the genuine emotion the Polish people seem to feel at this loss. I admittedly don't know much at all about Polish politics, but admire what I have seen as far as love for their fallen president. I'm kinda embarrassed that the US wouldn't feel that kind of pride if the situation was reversed.

I have read a bit of European history, and admire the Polish people for thier place in it. I wish you luck during these troubled times.

[commandosolo2009]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8612825.stm

the total number of passengers is unknown, some sources claim that 132 ppl were on board.

unbelievable....

My deepest condolences to all those relatives of the deceased. May God lay their souls to rest.:cry::cry:

Commandosolo

[OneToughHerring]

Very sad and tragic event.

[Karle94]

My biggest condolences from Norway to all the poles out there. It`s always tragic when a country looses respected leaders.

[SodyM]

What a sad and terrible tragedy for our Slav brothers.
My biggest condolences from Czech Republic

[CybaGirl]

How terrible and such a waste of human life.

This is so sad and yet so unbelievable.

Condolences to the families, friends and loved ones.

[Desga]

A sad day and many tears for all people :cry:

[forafro]

Firstly: Hello on Forum - I'm new member.
Secondly: Big thanks from Poland, it's nice to hear such kind of support!

[danurve]

Terrible news, very unfortunate indeed.

[goldorak]

As tragic as this event is - and with all my heart I offer condolences to the nation of Poland, I do want to point out that this has done quite a bit to bring to light an important part of history.

Not many knew of the Katyn Forest Massacre, and while this attention is painful due to its cause, it is only fitting that the government of Poland show that even today, it stands in both grief and pride, for the sacrifices of so many.

Lest we ever forget.

May all the victims of tragedy - Requiescat In Pace

:hmmm: it what universe ? Unless you want to point out that the polish people knew less about their past than other countries knew about poland's
recent history. And the Katyn Massacre is not exactly unknown.
Man I learned about it when I was in junior high and then again in high school (I'm talking late '80 when the soviets were still deying their involvement).
It was an important episode in WW2.

[Sailor Steve]

Firstly: Hello on Forum - I'm new member.
Secondly: Big thanks from Poland, it's nice to hear such kind of support!
WELCOME ABOARD! I'm sorry it has to be at such a sad time.

[jaxa]

Thanks guys for all these kind words from you. It's a great tragedy for our country and nation. It's very symbolic that President Lech Kaczyński died near Katyń exactly 70 years (10.04.2010 - 10.04.1940) after genocide of over 20.000 Polish POWs by Stalin's NKWD in Katyń forest, captured by Soviet Army in September 1939, during first month of WW2. Many people all over the world don't know that Soviet Union was ally of Third Reich this time. Lech Kaczyński wanted to honour murdered Polish officers. Rest in peace, Mr. President!

[jaxa]

Sorry for writing post over post, but it will be more clear to read. Our forum member and my compatriot from Poland col Kurtz, after reading this thread, said to me that it will help to understand sense of this thread - for those who don't know why Katyń genocide is so important for Polish nation and why President Lech Kaczyński wanted to fly to Katyń we both with col Kurtz strongly reccommend to watch movie "Katyń", directed by one of the greatest Polish directors Andrzej Wajda. This movie is a story about this horrible, traumatic event of Polish history and shows how communists tried to hide true about Katyń. It's a "must have to see" movie for everybody who wants to know better those complicated times.

This is a link to short info about this movie:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0879843/

Thanks again to everybody for your compassion for our national tragedy.

[Happy Times]

Sorry for writing post over post, but it will be more clear to read. Our forum member and my compatriot from Poland col Kurtz, after reading this thread, said to me that it will help to understand sense of this thread - for those who don't know why Katyń genocide is so important for Polish nation and why President Lech Kaczyński wanted to fly to Katyń we both with col Kurtz strongly reccommend to watch movie "Katyń", directed by one of the greatest Polish directors Andrzej Wajda. This movie is a story about this horrible, traumatic event of Polish history and shows how communists tried to hide true about Katyń. It's a "must have to see" movie for everybody who wants to know better those complicated times.

This is a link to short info about this movie:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0879843/

Thanks again to everybody for your compassion for our national tragedy.

Something that also isnt well known is that the NKVD started the Katyn massacre to make room for Finns.
They planned to bring the Finnish officers, national guards members etc. in the same camps.

[ariel30]

Cze¶æ ich pamiêci. Honor their memory.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I would like to respectfully offer my own sympathies and condolences to the Polish people during this time of tragedy.

May those lost, rest in peace.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f117/KptLehmann/rockrose.jpg

[evan82]

My opinion about president Lech Kaczyński is little different. I think he used many beautifull patriotic words only for the political profits. He was not a real Polish patriot.

Piłsudski, or all officers murdered in Katyń, they was real Polish patriots.

[Susexx]

Russians not monsters and not fanatics and to us it is sincerely a pity the lost people, even despite the fact that what the president of Poland has been incited against rapprochement with Russia. And all that in Katyne has been proved by nobody, it only a trump as in politics tricks and no more. Not one inhabitant of Leningrad does not feed hostility for Germans though during blockade has died almost 2 million people.

Mourning in Russia on April, 12th 2010 (http://www.tvkultura.ru/video.html?type=r&id=159440.flv)

RIP

[drtechno]

Russians not monsters and not fanatics

But they USED to be..

And all that in Katyne has been proved by nobody, it only a trump as in politics tricks and no more.

Do not infuriate me. If you don't believe the international community, then how about your own leaders.. YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT HAS ADMITTED TO IT. And then you wonder why the Poles still despise Russians. Its because of garbage like this statement. You probably also don't believe the Russians even invaded Poland in WW2. Thats right, you came to our "rescue".

Not one inhabitant of Leningrad does not feed hostility for Germans though during blockade has died almost 2 million people.


The Germans didn't occupy, control and suppress Leningrad for over 50 years, leaving its economy and infrastructure in a disaster. Why don't you ask the Hungarians how much they love Russians ?? Or do you also not believe the Russians suppressed the 1956 Revolt?

Unbelievable comments.

[jaxa]

Russians not monsters and not fanatics and to us it is sincerely a pity the lost people, even despite the fact that what the president of Poland has been incited against rapprochement with Russia. And all that in Katyne has been proved by nobody, it only a trump as in politics tricks and no more. Not one inhabitant of Leningrad does not feed hostility for Germans though during blockade has died almost 2 million people.

Mourning in Russia on April, 12th 2010 (http://www.tvkultura.ru/video.html?type=r&id=159440.flv)

RIP

I don't know what to say after reading these words. In your opinion Polish officers were murdered probably by themselves, or UFO crewmembers or, maybe, by Germans in 1941 as Soviet propaganda said in 1943 when it was discovered. Think more that one time at hour and try to use Google or Wikipedia. I know, you can always say that is Nazi propaganda and Goebbels's work. Polish officers were murdered with no reason, only for Stalin and Beria and other Soviet government criminals wish. Every honest human all over the world knows that was Soviet outrage and that Soviet Union was criminal country and wanted to invade rest of the world.

I didn't know that somebody at this forum can have such opinions like you :damn:

PS. I must say that I know some Russians who know many things about Soviet outrages, included Katyń massacre.

[Happy Times]

I don't know what to say after reading these words.

You have to say thank you for liberating you.:woot:
And if you will be nice they could shove a gas pipe up your ass, they are that nice.:D

[Susexx]

Poles despise Russian??? Choose friends more carefully. To me is sad to see that brotherly (even on language) the people remember from all history only Katyn. And that our grandfathers together were at war, these are all have similar forgotten. Or miss on Hitler, likely in Osventsime it was good?
All have suddenly recollected that Russian invaders, only killed all.
In vain you so Slavs...

[Susexx]

You have to say thank you for liberating you.:woot:
And if you will be nice they could shove a gas pipe up your ass, they are that nice.:D
It is possible without trite humour, the post forces to long.

[aanker]

Condolences to a Nation bereaved.

Re comments from above. Through Subsim I have been exposed to people from many nations. I wish that we could all be friends in real life as we are here. If it is possible here it should be possible in real life.

Art

[Susexx]

It should seems to me that events in Smolensk on the contrary to rally the people of Europe. We fortunately at that time did not live, let past events remain history and no more. After all how many was terrible events in the different countries: revolt , Hiroshima, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Katyn, Woman's Jar, Osventsim. Thank God it now history...

On behalf of all inhabitants of Leningrad I bring condolences to the family of the deads.

[kalaruch]

Im watching the arrival of 34 coffins from Smolensk to Warsaw...
Its overwhelming, because yesterday it was the same, 30 wooden coffins.
My superior chief (viceadmiral A. Karweta), the CINC of the Polish Nav. I saw him a month ago, when he was taking command from Dutch Minesweeper to Polish 7th Minesweeper Div.

PS Susexx - it was Stalin and his goverment, who ordered mass murder of Polish officers in Katyn, just watch the movie "Katyn"... Then post again your thoughts. Its based on true facts!

Rest in peace, our beloved countrymen

[Susexx]

Whether instead of equally Stalin or Hitler it has made all? Same death and murder. If think that history unilateral that you very much are mistaken. Here an example from the Soviet-Polish war 1919-1921, about it why that of films do not remove:

Execution by Poles of mission of the Russian Red Cross became on January, 2nd, 1919 the first documentary use of weapons against citizens, this act has been made, most likely, by groups of the Polish Self-defence as the regular Polish army yet has not left limits of Poland. In March, 1919 after employment by the Polish army of Pinsk the Polish commandant has ordered to shoot 40 Jews who have gathered for a prayer who have accepted for meeting of Bolsheviks. The part of the personnel of hospital has been shot also. in April of the same year capture by Poles of Vilnius was accompanied by mass punishments over captured Red Army men, Jews and the people sympathising the Soviet power . Approach of the Polish armies in Ukraine in the spring of 1920 was accompanied by the Jewish pogroms and mass executions: in Exactly Poles have shot more than 3 thousand civilians, in a place Tetiev is killed about 4 thousand Jews, for resistance at foodstuffs requisitions villages Ivanovtsy, the Heap, by Sobachi, Jablunovka, New Rowing, Melnichi, Kirillovka and др are completely burnt, their inhabitants are shot.

War without blood does not happen.

[jaxa]

Yeah, I was waiting for similar words - don't remember about Russian POWs killed by Polish during Polish-Soviet War 1919-1921. It's main counter-argument of Soviet and some Russian propaganda when we try to talk about Katyń massacre. It's as same true as talking about Polish officers in Katyń killed by Germans. But Katyń isn't only one massacre made by Soviets in Poland. Grodno 1939, Lvov 1941, Augustów 1944, Vilnus 1944 etc. - civilians, partisans, Polish soldiers. I hope it will be conciliation between our nations, but one condition is strongly neccessary - to plead guilty. Your President Miedwiediew said it was Stalin's decision.
Did you see "Katyń" movie on Russiya or Kultura tv? What do you think about this story?

[Susexx]

Yeah, I was waiting for similar words - don't remember about Russian POWs killed by Polish during Polish-Soviet War 1919-1921. It's main counter-argument of Soviet and some Russian propaganda when we try to talk about Katyń massacre. It's as same true as talking about Polish officers in Katyń killed by Germans. But Katyń isn't only one massacre made by Soviets in Poland. Grodno 1939, Lvov 1941, Augustów 1944, Vilnus 1944 etc. - civilians, partisans, Polish soldiers. I hope it will be conciliation between our nations, but one condition is strongly neccessary - to plead guilty. Your President Miedwiediew said it was Stalin's decision.
Did you see "Katyń" movie on Russiya or Kultura tv? What do you think about this story?

Give, my friend we will simply keep silent... About the dead speak or it is good or anything. We do not need to stir the past, time has judged and has punished criminals.

Let's simply keep silent....

[kalaruch]

Bolshevik and soviet propaganda messed everything up.
Sussex, my dear friend, please pray for those who died for their motherland.

I dont want to dispute about 1919-1920 and 1939-1940, but 1919 and 1939 were the years of Bolshevik/Soviet aggression on II RP.

I would like to end this thread, and try to concentrate at Smolensk tragedy.
Youre right, time has judged and has punished criminals. Let historians dig in the past....

[Susexx]

Smolensk, Russia-April 12, 2010: This is a satellite image of the crash site of a TU-154 outside of Smolensk, Russia in which President Lech Kaczynski of Poland and members of the political and military leadership were killed/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/digitalglobe-imagery/4515204703/

http://www.yaplakal.com/uploads/previews/post-3-12712299079900.jpg

[jaxa]

It was too foggy for landing, no INS and too low altitude. One hour later I saw sun and blue sky over crash site :damn:
Looking at this photo - where is proper runway?

[Jimbuna]

It looks like slightly north east :hmmm:

[flag4]

please dont tell me this was a conspiracy...

...the tradedy is enough...

god bless to the families involved.

flag4

[Spartan]

There is no conspiracy from what can be told - now, it looks like pilot error nothing more.

Additionally, the Russian response to the situation has been stellar to say the least.

BTW: The NYT did a pictorial here (http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2010/04/11/world/20100412-POLAND_index.html?ref=europe).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b5/Animated-Flag-Poland.gif/120px-Animated-Flag-Poland.gif

On a side note, I'm saddened to read that some wish the former president buried in Wawel. That is wrong on so many levels...

[evan82]

Katyń. I think this was Stalin vendetta for the 1920 Warsaw battle, Susexx.
Bolshevik army was stopped and defeat by Polish army under Józef Piłsudski
command. Now this is history, but if we really like to change realtions between our Country's, we can't build on lies, Susexx.

However I am optymist today, especially after this what Putin do in these days and what President Miedwiediew Said. Eaven if this was only political gesture, this was a conciliatory gesture and very important.

"...the people remember from all history only Katyn"

Not only, but 20000 Polish best patriots was murdered there, and most of them was officers.
Good to know, huh?

Lenin and Stalin are dead and eaven if they still have admirers, there is also
many good peoples in Russia and in Poland, peoples who knows true history, but now they want to build better relations between our nations leaning on the future, not the past.

[evan82]

Newest simulation of this tragedy on the picture:
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/9452/smolensksamolotmapaamie.jpg

[Skybird]

The official investigation report by the Russian authorities has been released and also handed over the the Poles. It blames pilot error due to psychological pressure not to upset Kaczanski and kind of intimidation by the presence of (slightly alcoholised) Polish air force commander in the cockpit. This, so the report, drove the pilots to take unjustified risks and to ignore repeated Russian warnings that the weather due to low visibility at the destination airport made a diversion to an alternate airport highly advisable.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12170021

[kranz]

It blames pilot error due to psychological pressure not to upset Kaczanski and kind of intimidation by the presence of (slightly alcoholised) Polish air force commander in the cockpit.

before writing that crap you could have at least gone here
http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2010/tu-154m_101.html#metka1

and read the whole report. I saw the whole conference and there was nothing about "upsetting" anyone. They stated that there was a general pressure in the cockpit but the whole story about Kaczynski is your typical garbage. Polish experts who were investigating the crash stated sth like a week ago that they gonna write their own report coz the one provided above blames only the pilots and states that the ground control did nothing wrong.

[Skybird]

This morning I made a mistake. I checked my ignore list and deleted three names, amongst them yours, Kranz. And first thing I must read from you is your usual friendliness that greets me with "before writing this crap". I was directly refering to the news article at the BBC, which i quote below for you seem to lack the skill to check a provided link. If you lack the patience or intellectual capacity to read the providced article and deny to see in principle the difference between content that I produce by myself, and content that I just mirror from another source, then this is your problem. So is your literal kindness and politeness.

And so you go back to my ignore list, just one hour after I deleted you there. And this time, for it is the second time, it will be forever. So save your time to answer to me. I'm done with you.


The Polish crew failed to heed bad weather warnings because they were afraid of displeasing President Lech Kaczynski, Russian investigators said.

The presence of Poland's air force commander in the cockpit drove them to take "unjustified risk", they said.

(...)

Tatyana Anodina, head of the Inter-state Aviation Committee (Mak) in Moscow, told reporters that the final report had been handed to Polish colleagues.

“The presence of the Polish air force commander on the flight deck up to the aircraft's impact with the ground put psychological pressure on the crew captain to decide on continuing descent in a situation of unjustified risk, dominated by the goal of making a landing at any cost”

The Soviet-made Tu-154 plane, she said, had been in good condition when it took off from Warsaw en route to Smolensk's Severny airport, and it suffered no engine or flight system failures.

Before impact, there was no fire, explosion or other damage in the air, she continued.

The disaster resulted directly, she said, from the crew's failure to heed weather warnings and land at a different airport.

"During the flight, the crew were repeatedly informed of inadequate weather conditions at the destination airport," she said.

"Despite this, the crew of the Tu-154 did not take a decision to switch to a back-up airfield. This may be considered as the start of the extreme situation aboard the plane."

The Russian investigation found "substantial deficiencies" in the training given to Captain Arkadiusz Protasiuk and his co-pilot, Major Robert Grzywna, Ms Anodina said.

The two men had feared a "negative reaction" from President Kaczynski if they switched to the other airfield, according to the Russian investigator.

"The main passenger's expected negative reaction... placed psychological pressure on crew members and influenced the decision to continue the landing," she said.

The jet's flight recorder caught one of the crew saying "He'll get mad", in an apparent reference to the Polish president's determination not to alter his schedule.

Poland's air force commander, Gen Andrzej Blasik, added to the pressure by entering the flight deck, Ms Anodina noted.

"The presence of the Polish air force commander on the flight deck up to the aircraft's impact with the ground put psychological pressure on the crew captain to decide on continuing descent in a situation of unjustified risk, dominated by the goal of making a landing at any cost," she said.

According to pathology tests, alcohol was found in the blood of Gen Blasik in a concentration of 0.6 grams per litre - just above the drink-driving limit for most EU states.

Investigators found that a top Polish foreign ministry official, Mariusz Kazana, had also entered the flight deck at one point.

[DarkFish]

This morning I made a mistake. I checked my ignore list and deleted three names, amongst them yours, Kranz.:rotfl2:
Well he didn't spent much time off your list:DL

TBH, Kranz, I can imagine why Skybird has you on his ignore list. There are a thousand ways in which you could have said what you wanted to say, most of which are a lot more friendly. It's not the first time I've got this feeling about you, so you might want to change something before more members start to dislike you.


Polish experts who were investigating the crash stated sth like a week ago that they gonna write their own report coz the one provided above blames only the pilots and states that the ground control did nothing wrong.Doesn't sound very scientific, does it? &quot;We don't like the outcome of the investigation, so we're gonna change the results a little so that it matches with what we want&quot;

[Growler]

If the weather was that bad that the Russians can point to the fact that the Poles should have diverted to another field, why was the original field still an option? Why hadn't it been closed due to weather?

[kranz]

TBH, Kranz, I can imagine why Skybird has you on his ignore list. There are a thousand ways in which you could have said what you wanted to say, most of which are a lot more friendly. It's not the first time I've got this feeling about you, so you might want to change something before more members start to dislike you.

such a dirty metal freak like you should mind his own business. do it please and stop commenting on my posts.

[kranz]

And so you go back to my ignore list, just one hour after I deleted you there. And this time, for it is the second time, it will be forever. So save your time to answer to me. I'm done with you.

personally I don;t give a damn if I am or not on your ignore list. Sure you can reject the reality. It's your choice. I guess I'm writing this in vain now but w/e. What you did was just quoting one article who quoted one lady who has a very bad opinion among the many aviation experts. This "MAK" institution has NEVER blamed Russian side on ANY plane accident which took place in Russia or former Soviet Union. Of course the pilots are to be blamed for what happened and this was stated by the report. The report however doesn't point to ANY quotation that would clearly show ANY kind of pressure. General Blasik (the one who drank alcohol, or at least the report states it) was allowed to be in the cockpit. Polish military regulations do not forbid this. All the newspapers are saying about "pressure", the stenographic record was published long time ago and NO ONE could prove that "pressure" to be spoken. Skybird was a master of speculation here, from the very beginning of that thread. The report has 184 pages but he decided to post sth that is NOT there and disregard anything else. There are plenty of things which were "forgotten" by this report simply bcoz they were inconvenient for the Russian side.

[Takeda Shingen]

such a dirty metal freak like you should mind his own business.

Totally uncalled for. :down:

[kranz]

Doesn't sound very scientific, does it? &quot;We don't like the outcome of the investigation, so we're gonna change the results a little so that it matches with what we want&quot;

that's how it was done by the russian side. try to find in that report ANYTHING about the ground control in Smolensk. There is nothing. Medical reports concerning their health status after the accident are gone, the tapes which should record the radar data aren't in the report. etc. besides- I bet this is the first time you've heard about that crash and probably you have no bloody idea what it is all about.

[kranz]

Totally uncalled for. :down:

where were you when he was commenting on my posts in an ironic way? take a look at some other threads.

[Takeda Shingen]

where were you when he was commenting on my posts in an ironic way? take a look at some other threads.

He still wasn't calling you names. I've never thought you as a troublemaker. I've never thought him as a troublemaker. You're both nice guys and I like you both. I just think that you're getting a little overheated right now; it happens to all of us, myself included. Step away for a few hours and you'll feel better.

[kranz]

He still wasn't calling you names. I've never thought you as a troublemaker. I've never thought him as a troublemaker. You're both nice guys and I like you both. I just think that you're getting a little overheated right now; it happens to all of us, myself included. Step away for a few hours and you'll feel better.

ok, I will tell when it started: i posted a bit playful and maybe unnecessary comment about "metal girls" with the stress on "metal" which he correctly recognized and started this "not scientific" plus laughing after Skybird's post. So I payed him back.

[Takeda Shingen]

ok, I will tell when it started: i posted a bit playful and maybe unnecessary comment about "metal girls" with the stress on "metal" which he correctly recognized and started this "not scientific" plus laughing after Skybird's post. So I payed him back.

I am sure that you didn't mean any harm to DarkFish, but you'd have to admit that, given the context, your comment could be taken as pretty hostile. Really, it is just one of those things that have to be given some space. It will cool down.

By the way, your English is excellent. I wish that I could speak a word of Polish.

[CCIP]

decided to pay back? Geez, what is this, kindergarten? Please don't act like that. It's really not appropriate for a civil forum and a serious topic.


Meanwhile, the video of the official Russian report can be seen here in full:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucfMbPt8xRw

[Growler]

If the weather was that bad that the Russians can point to the fact that the Poles should have diverted to another field, why was the original field still an option? Why hadn't it been closed due to weather?

Anyone?

Bueller?



Bueller?

[kranz]

probably bcoz it was a military airfield and couldn't be closed by the decision of the ground control. I remember a discussion about this issue and as far as I remember that if it was a civil airfield it could have been closed but as it was a military one the decision had to be made much earlier (before the plane took off).
It was closed for sth like a half a year but opened before 7th and 10th of April only for those two Polish visits

[DarkFish]

such a dirty metal freak like you should mind his own business. do it please and stop commenting on my posts.Kranz,
Before today (or maybe yesterday) I can't remember I've ever seen you as not nice, so I guess it's just because you're probably a little heated right now for whatever reason. As such, I won't feel offended and I really hope you can let go whatever bothers you.

BTW, please understand that the ROFL smiley I posted was not directed at you, but more at the situation. It's pretty funny IMO if someone reappears on someones ignore list within an hour. It was not my intention to laugh at you, and if you feel as if I did, I apologize.

where were you when he was commenting on my posts in an ironic way? take a look at some other threads.You mean the "then we're finally rid of you:DL"? If the smiley didn't give away that I didn't really mean it, the "On a serious note" in the next line should have.
If you mean my reaction on your post, I really felt assaulted by what you posted. You made a very risky joke, I responded to it. If you play with fire, you should be prepared to get burned.
BTW this also goes for unkind and offensive posts. If you reply in an unfriendly manner, you shouldn't be surprised if someone reprimands you about it.

Anyway, I hope you learned your lesson and try to be a little more friendly in the future. Whatever buggers you in your private life, it's no reason to take it out on forum members.

that's how it was done by the russian side. try to find in that report ANYTHING about the ground control in Smolensk. There is nothing. Medical reports concerning their health status after the accident are gone, the tapes which should record the radar data aren't in the report. etc. besides- I bet this is the first time you've heard about that crash and probably you have no bloody idea what it is all about.First of all, this is by far not the first time I've heard about the crash. When it happened a few months ago, it was all over the news, and also all over subsim.
Second, the things you mention are indeed suspicious. But conducting another investigation of your own just to change the outcome isn't exactly professional either. Why should we believe any of the Polish investigations are not gonna be just as biased as the Russian one?

[Matador.es]

Euhm, just a question, but RT (Russia Today)... is that not thé Pro Russian propaganda TV Station which broadcast around the world?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-today-tomorrow--the-world-2083869.html

A former cold war "agent" i met in Budapest ones told me: The Russians can lie that well, that even the opposite is not true:hmmm:.

[Growler]

probably bcoz it was a military airfield and couldn't be closed by the decision of the ground control. I remember a discussion about this issue and as far as I remember that if it was a civil airfield it could have been closed but as it was a military one the decision had to be made much earlier (before the plane took off).
It was closed for sth like a half a year but opened before 7th and 10th of April only for those two Polish visits

Hmm... so a civilian agency investigates a matter involving a military airfield and a civilian air transport crash attempting to land there, in weather that would have closed an equivalent civilian general aviation field. Seems... unnecessarily complicated.

[joegrundman]

Seems... unnecessarily complicated.

welcome to east europe:D

[geetrue]

Pilot error for sure ... or someone higher said, "Go for it"

Try the same thing in FSX and feel your waste material bunching in your guts as you try to land.

[kranz]

Hmm... so a civilian agency investigates a matter involving a military airfield and a civilian air transport crash attempting to land there, in weather that would have closed an equivalent civilian general aviation field. Seems... unnecessarily complicated.

and here is the problem: there are two types of flights: civilian and military. Different countries and their forces have different regulations about classifying flight as a civilian or military. In civilian flights it is the pilot, who in terms of law and air regulations, takes FULL responsibility for every part of the flight. The ground control cannot force him to change his decisions. If he lands and violated the rules he would take the legal responsibility. When the flight is classified as a military one the responsibility is also is divided between both the pilot and the ground controller. And here is the legal problem of this crash. The Polish side from the very beginning claimed that it was a military flight: VIPs on board, HEAD status according to international regulations, military airfield, military character of the unit which gave the plane, military pilots. The Russians said yesterday that it was a civilian flight.

welcome to east europe:D

yeah, that's how it looks here. Haven't you ever crossed on the red light? Here, we do it all the time. (no pun intended)

Pilot error for sure ... or someone higher said, "Go for it"
Try the same thing in FSX and feel your waste material bunching in your guts as you try to land.

true. And I'm not going to tell you- it's the Russians fault. Coz simply it wasn't like this. But there are plenty of unanswered questions for which the only answer from the Russian side was: we can;t give you the tape coz it's damaged. We can't give you the ground controllers' first version of the testimonies coz they were regarded as "invalid"-they were replaced by testimonies given much later after the crash.
Comming back to what joegrundman said: I guess it was in June or July, don't remember exactly. The crew of Jak-40, who landed before Tu-154 have testified and I guess it was confirmed by the record from the plane(dunno-radio only or the "blackbox" recorder) that the Polish pilot was told about the bad weather in smolensk he said: yeah, bad weather, look how "best of the best" can/will land". He used a popular colloquialism in that transmission which sounded better than the "best of the best" translation but it actually shows how some ppl treat serious matters. I guess you call it "bravado".

[Skybird]

Pilot error for sure ... or someone higher said, "Go for it"


Pilot fault in ANY case, no matter what somebody higher has said. For the duration of the flight, the plane captain has the final say, always. It is his obligation to assess the situation and to make the final decision on what to do. Nobody aboard the plane, not even an air force general, should tell him what to do. Nor should the flying pilot and plane commender take it.

This is no cheap name-calling, or easy blaming of the pilots. After all, they also payed their mistake with their lives. But it seems that no matter the framing circumstances they allowed to give in to any kind of direct or indirect pressure that intimidated them sufficiently so that they acted the way they did - probably even against their experience and professional assessment. This cannot have been caused Russian control on the ground, it can only have come from aboard the plane. Why should they have feared some Russian ground controller?

The pilots seem to have heared of the event happening earlier, where there also was a flight diversion to an alternate, and Kaczynski went mad about it. But even with that knowledge they should have sticked to their own experience and assessedment, and nobody else's. They flew the plane - not Kaczynski, not his advsior,and not the air force general.

I assume that if the Russians added to the messing up of events, they wopuld try to hide it. They have a record to blame the pilot in case of air disasters. But in this case I see little room how they could have contributed decisive influence to causing the accident. It still remains the pilot's fault, caused by allowing to get intimidated in a way.

It is more a psychological failure than a lack of skills or experience, I think.

On the other hand, if nobody told the pilots what to do and they decided freely to attempt the landing, they obviously freely choosed to do the wrong thing. Which again would make it a pilot's fault.

[XabbaRus]

I'm late to the party but please keep it civil.

[kranz]

The pilots seem to have heared of the event happening earlier, where there also was a flight diversion to an alternate, and Kaczynski went mad about it.
I'm late to the party but please keep it civil.

seems impossible to me. Why? the guru of all psychologists boarded on 01-13-2011 05:15 PM. So I promise that it will NOT be civil unless he gives a quotation from the black box record (plenty of pdfs on the net) supporting what he said. I'll stop here for now giving him time to find what he was asked for.

[XabbaRus]

Well Kranz, I now give formal warning that if it is not kept civil as you are threatening I will shut down the thread and hand out infractions.

[Skybird]

The ping-pong between Poland and Russia continues. After Poland has published its version of events in a report meant to be a correction of an earlier Russian report, just bone day later the Russians countered by publishing transcripts of communication that should counter the Polish claims.

From Polski Radio DLA Zagranicy, 19-01-2011:

http://www.thenews.pl/international/artykul147591_russian-smolensk-transcripts-point-to-fatal-top-level-error.html

Russian investigators have released transcripts of conversations between air traffic controllers in the lead up to the crash of the TU-154 in Smolensk last April, which suggest that staff did try to divert the plane to another airport but that their superiors failed to secure clearance, until it was too late.

The transcripts rushed out late last night on the official website of Russia’s Interstate Aviation Committee (MAK) came hot on the heels of a presentation by Poland’s interior minister Jerzy Miller (http://www.thenews.pl/international/?id=147580)of transcripts of conversation by the air traffic controllers, which showed, say the Polish government, that errors by airport staff on the fateful morning on 10 April – when 96 died including President Kaczynski – contributed to the crash.

The release of recordings of the controllers at Smolensk airport by MAK indicates that the Russians were convinced that the doomed Tu-154 plane should divert to another airport as Smolensk was enveloped in thick fog.

Forty minutes before the crash, airport traffic controller Pavel Plusnin impressed upon his colleague by telephone that the pilots "do not understand practically anything in Russian."

"Who is currently responsible for the Polish plane?" asked Plusnin, eighteen minutes before the crash.

"Moscow," came the reply.

"Well, you'd better pass on to them that we have fog; visibility of less than 400 metres. What is the point of sending them here?"

The transcripts show that reserve airports were being prepared at Vitebsk and Minsk, however, it is unclear from the recordings how early the Polish crew were informed about this.

The recordings suggest that receipt of confirmation from their superiors at another location was "ongoing" just minutes before the crash.

But confirmation of the readiness of the other airports was not forthcoming until it was too late.

"You're late, they are already in range," replied the airport controller, who was obviously highly stressed at the time. "Damn it, they're flying to us."

The Russian transcripts tally with some of the criticisms leveled by the Polish government and investigators yesterday at a special press conference where they rebutted criticism in the original report by the Russian investigators released last week that the Polish crew were solely to blame for the disaster which killed many of Poland’s political and military elite last year.


From Moscow News, 19-01-2011:


http://www.themoscownews.com/international/20110119/188344981.html

Air traffic controllers at Smolensk airport told the crew of Poland’s presidential jet that they should not attempt to land, according to transcripts from the plane’s “black box”.
In a move described by Russian transport minister Igor Levitin as “unprecendented”, the MAK investigation committee published details of the conversations between cockpit and ground control in the final moments of the fatal flight.
The release came in response to Polish claims that staff in Smolensk had failed to warn the pilot of bad weather and allowed him to attempt an unsafe landing.

Pressure from Moscow
A panel of Polish aviation experts speaking in Warsaw yesterday claimed that the recordings showed the air traffic controllers were under external pressure as they attempted to guide the flight to land.
And a senior Polish investigator said the crew was wrongly told it was on course to land, while air traffic staff over-estimated visibility, saying it was 800 metres rather than 200, the Warsaw Voice reported.
“When the Polish plane was too high by 130 metres and 80 metres off course, Russian air traffic controllers told the crew it was on the correct course rather than warning them to adjust their course,” Robert Benedict, Polish investigative team member, told reporters.

Russian response
In the face of these allegations from Poland – which are due to be discussed in the country’s parliament alongside the report published by Russia last week – the MAK released a full transcript of the final moments of the flight.
And Levitin told Ekho Moskvy that the airport staff had “no right” to order the plane to land elsewhere, reinforcing the conclusions of last week’s report that the pilot was ultimately responsible for the crash.
“As this is a military airport, rather than an international one, the pilot takes his own decision about landing,” the minister said. “The manager can not deny him that right.”

You can’t land here!
Accounts of the transcripts published in the Russian media support the official line.
On leaving Warsaw at 9:27 am the crew of the Polish plane apparently did not ask about weather conditions for their arrival.
And as the jet approached Smolensk and announced its intention to land, Komsomolskaya Pravda said the airport controllers were “clearly not happy”.
One of them told the crew “You can’t land it here”, while a conversation between ground staff included one officer complaining: “Why is he still heading for us? Doesn’t he understand Russian?”

Political row
The issue could jeopardise the growing rapprochement in Russia-Poland relations, with Poland’s parliament meeting today to discuss a formal response to Russia’s findings from last week.
Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk has called for high-level negotiations to clarify some details which the Poles say are missing from the MAK’s account.
And government representatives have pointed out a number of “formal errors” from the MAK, newsru reported.
Meanwhile the late president’s son Marcin Dubenetsky told reporters: “Today the hypothesis of a plot to murder the Polish president is more believable than ever.”

The crash
Poland’s president Lech Kaczynski was among 98 people killed when the plane crashed on approach to Smolensk’s airfield last April.
The high-level delegation, which included dozens of senior political and military figures, was on its way to a memorial services for the victims of the 1940 Katyn massacre.
Russia’s official report into the incident, published last week, blamed the pilot and claimed that the head of the air force, Andrjez Blasik, had drunkenly barged into the cockpit during the fateful descent.


Something tells me this tie-break will last longer than the whole match before. While both governments seem to demonstrate an interest to move closer together, I wonder iof the mutual animosities really have a chance to be overcome within the next 1 or 2 generations. With strong nationalist movements blossoming in both countries, I doubt it.

[kranz]

yay for Skybird.:yeah: I can't believe that he posted something what slightly ruins his previous theory concerning the cockpit "pressure" as the only factor responsible for the crash. On the very bottom of this page (http://www.mak.ru/english/info/tu-154m_101.html) you can find 3 pdfs with the communication recordings. Unfortunately there is only a version in russian. This however doesn't change the fact that the pilots disregarded bad weather conditions. The only new element in this story is related to what Polish experts have found on the voice recorder- after crossing 100 meters Polish pilots almost immediately attempted to cancel the descent and go around but they failed. For now I cannot provide any english versions of this story, the Polish report is supposed to be ready in February. There are several explanations concerning their failure while trying to go up, some being identical to what MAK has said about the level of pilot's experience- as it was not sufficient.

[Schroeder]

I'm actually surprised that the flight crew of the president's plane was inexperienced. Isn't that usually a job only experienced pilots get.:hmmm:

[kranz]

yeah. Flying experience according to MAK's report:
Pilot: 3400 hours (530h as a PiC of Tu-154)
Co-pilot: 1700h (198 as a Co-pilot)
Navigator: 1060h (59 as a navigator)

e.g. MAK's experts had 14 000 hours... ofc they were civilian pilots.
MAK blamed the PiC for doing a mistake while trying to pull up. It is considered that he had no experience in disengaging the auto-pilot using the control column. On the other hand Polish experts claimed that he did it correctly. MAK also stated, and this is beyond a doubt, that the crew was not aware of the fact that while landing on a airfield without ILS system, the button "quick switch-off" (ok, this is a quotation from the report, this button simply sets the engines to 100% and disengages the vertical auto-pilot) will not work. It was recorded that the crew wanted to use it if they didn't see the runway. That is why (probably) they lost those crucial seconds before they disengaged the AP and manually set throttles to full power .

[XabbaRus]

The whole issue was politicised from the start.

Smolensk was chosen as it is the closest airport to Katyn even though it was a largely unused and practically abandoned airbase.

The reason was that Kazynski would of kicked up a fuss if another further away airport had been used and complained of a conspiracy.

Basically mistakes were made on both sides. The controller couldn't tell the plane not to land, the order from Moscow arrived too late, and I wouldn't be surprised if given the Georgia example that Kazynski had put pressure to land regardless.

As for the hours each pilot had they do seem low for the type of plane they were flying.

Ya know Kranz this isn't some Russian conspiracy.

[kranz]

Ya know Kranz this isn't some Russian conspiracy.
yup, coz it's a Polish conspiracy to say that's the Russians' fault.

The Russians could have won much more by showing the control tower staff's work in their report. But they wanted to have their hands completely clean, at least for the international public opinion. If you read the pdfs, or at least you are familiar with the general atmosphere in the tower you should know that their hands are not clean.
Ok, I wanted to avoid posting some details from blogs which question many so-called "facts" from the MAK's report just not to be accused of spreading the anti-russian propaganda and cool down the atmosphere here but that's how I got paid. People telling me what it was NOT before I even wrote anything.

[XabbaRus]

I'm not saying it is a Polish conspiracy either, however to be fair to the Russians wherever anything with the Kazyskis is involved it is like walking on eggshells.

[evan82]

For me, reason of this catastrophe is clear and simple. This was sick self-confidence, idleness, and not much more than one stupid decission. Why, why? Why I'm so cruel for politicians, or maybe for the crew? Airport base in Smoleńsk is not so new, and probably for this reason, theoretically, was deleted, unfortunately, not completely. So this is "Russians fault", that the Smoleńsk airport was choosen by polish delegation. Why the polish politicians decided to choose airport in Smoleńsk? Because this airport was most comfortable for them. This is clear; When you [safely:)] exit the plane, you must be nearly on place. Don't waste to much time on the limo. What for! Hurry, faster, this can be done somehow - thats they thinkered - always the same old litany. 21 years of capitalism, and always the same. Miserable end. Shame. If you know something more about the genesis of the socialism and it's most radical form - communism, and situation in Poland after second WW, then you shall understand everything.

This was enough, when wheather in Smoleńsk turned into extremely bad, only for 1,5, or 3 hours? Strange? Good subject for the great debate between smart peoples about eternal life. Noooo! Faster, faster! Greatest shame from all shames, to be late on ceremony. In all Russia, Smoleńsk was the only one functional base after all:) Is this was impossible, to start the flight erlier?

Fog was very heavy. Plane was not small. Airport was not so big. I suppose, that the intentionally assorted polish crew, in the end, when everything else what could be done - was done, then, mild crew was forced to fly extremely low for spotting something more than nothing! Pilot had about 85% to 98% chances for successfull crush in that situation. A quite large plane, many peoples on board. Who said the first and most important word? Secret! No matter, because the last word had the main pilot, captain of the plane, and for the God sake, he decided to land! What for? Maybe for the glory of: polish ex - president, "political elite", Poland, or maybe for himself? Where is this glory now? There, where is the true, but liar will never be capable to walk in the true glory.

[Tchocky]

Oy
.

[Oberon]

Let the poor guys rest in peace already.

[kranz]

when I saw that the thread appeared on the first page I though: Skybird has more scum to share with. Fortunately I was wrong.

[Jimbuna]

Let the poor guys rest in peace already.

Precisely.