Things that bother me about "Iron Coffins"

[Subnuts]

A few months ago, Neal asked me to write a review of Iron Coffins for the next almanac. As I'm not supposed to actually post the actual review on this forum, I thought I'd bring up some of the..."issues"...I have with Iron Coffins. In my view, this book is painfully overrated, factually dishonest, and shouldn't occupy the elevated position it holds in the U-boat "canon." So, here's a quick laundry list:

It's ridiculously high standing. Iron COffins is often thought of as a crowning masterpiece in the genre of submarine literature, the definitive account of life on a German U-boat, and a 100% factual account. Hasn't anyone ever heard of looking into secondary sources? I can study translated plans of U-570, read through Donitz's war diary, and examine the results of every convoy battle, all without having to fly to Germany and dig through old records.



The amount of blatant fabrication contained within. Werner has U-557 sinking seven ships on her first patrol, when only one was sunk in reality. He then has her sinking six ships on her third patrol, when again, only one was sunk. He then has U-230 attacking Convoy HX-229/SC-122, sinking seven ships of the 22 in total sunk from the two convoys. However, the boat never got close enough to either convoy to fire a single torpedo or shell at it! Finally, he describes attacking a convoy in January, 1945 near England, observing three distinct torpedo strikes. Official records fail to credit him with sinking or damaging a single ship during his career as a U-boat captain.



Werner's depiction of the Allied ASW effort. Based on Iron Coffins, Werner survived hundreds of aerial attacks, and several 30-hour long depth charge barrages. He's so lucky, though, that the Allies never used air-dropping homing torpedoes, Hedgehogs, sonobuoys, or hunter-killer groups against him. Considering the Allies has turned anti-submarine warfare into an artform by war's end, I find this hard to believe.



Werner's depiction of himself. He's a stereotypical "Good German" who happens to be politically neutral, has no opinion of the Nazis, stands up against the Gestapo when his father is arrested, and has only the classiest of affairs with French prost...I mean, ladies. Everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault, even when his boat gets sunk in harbor. He shoots down a plane single-handedly with an ancient machine gun and ends up in the French foreign legion. Seriously?



The reactions of U-boat veterans to the book has been glossed over. Jurgen Rohwer said that if one were to underline all of the errors in this book in red, it would look like a blood bath. The Association of German Submariners called it a "hack work totally without foundation." Iron Coffins was just as controversial as Das Boot when it came out, but people accept Herbert Werner more readily then they would Lothar-Gunther Buchheim. Why ignore these very real criticisms?



Werner's overall attitude. He wants us to pause and reflect on how horrible war is while embellishing on his wartime experiences. He writes a grim anti-war story while including exciting fabricated battle scenes to spice up the narrative and make it more palatable. I find this whole attitude condescending at best, and intellectually dishonest at worst.

Okay, you can all hate me now.

[Ducimus]

I admire your fortitude for posting the truth. For it's tantamount to burning a religious scripture in a place of worship in front of the followers. I admit, when i first started reading about U boats, i got totally caught up in the romance of it all.

Later on, i started questioning various things i have read or heard. I found many of the points you have listed, along with a couple other indirect points that are not listed. Though they are not my preference, I still enjoy U boats (I love WW2 diesal boats in general), but nowadays i am much more cautious in discerning fact from myth.

[Westbroek]

I don't hate you Subnuts. Well played. :salute:
The truth is a stubborn thing.

[mcarlsonus]

Since I'm almost universally hated anyway, I feel compelled to post I thought Thunder Below was also overrated and more a paean to the inflated ego and overinflated self-worth of Eugene Fluckey, the author and Captain of the USS Barb. The constant self-aggrandizing simply stuck in my craw. I, for one, remain unconvinced the Allies would've lost the Pacific War if not for, "Gene!"

Give me Clear the Bridge!: The War Patrols of the USS Tang by her Captain, Richard O'Kane anyday!

[gimpy117]

i think the reason there is not a lot of backlash is that there simply aren't that many U-boat vets around...

[Nordmann]

Take Her Deep! by I. J. Galantin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_J._Galantin) is a good read, it really captures the long and tedious nature of patrols in the Pacific, and the frequent disappointments of the crew. If anyone has yet to read it, I really would recommend it.

[Westbroek]

Take Her Deep was a great read, though I did get a few raised eyebrows at the title. :DL
Though it's also about fleet boats... everyone should read "Wahoo: The patrols of America's Most Famous Submarine." It's written by Richard O'Kane, the XO of the ship for 5 patrols (Wahoo was sunk on the 7th) who later captained the Tang, which sank from a circle-runner. He survived...it's an amazing story and he's an amazing captain and man. God rest him.

edit: Hey this is my 100th post, yay

[mcarlsonus]

I really do wonder if part of the success of Iron Coffins is due to having the Foreword written by Edward Beach, the author of Run Silent, Run Deep and the first captain of a nuclear boat to circumnavigate the globe in USS Triton, 1960. The guy's a legend and still enjoys god-like status among the US Navy elite.

[mcarlsonus]

Take Her Deep was a great read, though I did get a few raised eyebrows at the title. :DL
Though it's also about fleet boats... everyone should read "Wahoo: The patrols of America's Most Famous Submarine." It's written by Richard O'Kane, the XO of the ship for 5 patrols (Wahoo was sunk on the 7th) who later captained the Tang, which sank from a circle-runner. He survived...it's an amazing story and he's an amazing captain and man. God rest him.

edit: Hey this is my 100th post, yay

Take Her Deep: A Submarine Against Japan in World War II was written by I. J. Galantin and concerns the author's command during the missions of the USS Halibut.

[Nordmann]

Take Her Deep: A Submarine Against Japan in World War II was written by I. J. Galantin and concerns the author's command during the missions of the USS Halibut.

Indeed. No aggrandised achievements here, just his experiences.

[Onkel Neal]

everyone should read "Wahoo: The patrols of America's Most Famous Submarine." It's written by Richard O'Kane, the XO of the ship for 5 patrols (Wahoo was sunk on the 7th) who later captained the Tang, which sank from a circle-runner. He survived...it's an amazing story and he's an amazing captain and man. God rest him.


And features Deadly Dudley, our best skipper up to that time. :rock:

[mcarlsonus]

And features Deadly Dudley, our best skipper up to that time. :rock:

a.k.a. "Mushmouth," later shortened to, "Mush." Saw him recently in some US Navy WW2-era footage on...History Channel? Had him at the periscope, crouched down, chomping on cigar sticking out of the starboard side of the mouth, yelling orders...
they don't make 'em like that anymore. The US Navy Submarine forces recently decided the smoking lamp would never again be lit in the Boats!

[Westbroek]

Morton...What a captain. What a character. Seriously the book is so chock full of great stories of the men he served with and peppered with so many subtle observations and recollections that it really requires more than one read through to be fully enjoyed. Highly recommend.

[IanC]

The best part of Iron Coffins is when Werner casually mentions how he single handedly shot down an airplane with a WW1 water cooled machine gun! :doh: Who's da man! :rock:

Having said that, I still think his book is one of the best out there, errors and all.
Just consider it a novel if you want, the book does what it's suppose to do, and I think it does it well.

[BigBANGtheory]

I'm glad you said that, I got a 2nd hand copy off Amazon the other day and its ready and waiting to be started.

[IanC]

I'm glad you said that, I got a 2nd hand copy off Amazon the other day and its ready and waiting to be started.

It's not considered a U-boat classic for nothing. :yep:

[mcarlsonus]

The best part of Iron Coffins is when Werner casually mentions how he single handedly shot down an airplane with a WW1 water cooled machine gun! :doh: Who's da man! :rock:

Having said that, I still think his book is one of the best out there, errors and all.
Just consider it a novel if you want, the book does what it's suppose to do, and I think it does it well.

SHOOT ! That ain't nothin' !! I seem to remember a part of Thunder Below where Eugene Fluckey claimed he invaded and took over one of the islands off the Japanese mainland, planting a flag, and claiming it for the United States! That was just BEFORE he invented the atomic bomb and single-handedly punched the entire country of Japan right square in the kisser! "To the moon, Tojo!" he roared...

(oh jeez. I GOTS to get those prescriptions refilled!)

[JScones]

Truth can be hard to swallow. Now had you stated that "Das Boot" was not factual, then there'd be a public burning in this thar forum...

[JamesT73J]

The accuracy failings of 'Iron Coffins' are well documented. However, the book succeeds on it's strengths: Capturing the mood and tone of the whole U-Boat war perfectly; from triumph to disaster and total defeat. It is well written.

There are more objective accounts. Peter Cremer's U-333 is a great read, and diligently researched, but is arguably drier than Werner's work. Any student of the subject matter will read a spread of material and draw his own conclusions.

James

[Laffertytig]

ive also read iron coffins and found it a great read. ok, maybe its not 100% accurate but i still really enjoyed it:up:

[Iron Budokan]

Yes, it's a fictionalized account of a man's life during the war. And it's a damn good book when you view it through that lens. Period.

[Elektranaut]

The post war section is bizarre,is there any truth in that?
Anyhow a great read,fact or fiction.....

[JotDora]

Hmmm strange!

i've red the german original a few weeks ago and cannot remember any distant torpedo explosions on a mission in 1945. Could you please give a page number where you've red this?

Greetings

JotDora

[Bilge_Rat]

I have not read "Iron Coffins", so cannot comment on it, but personal account or memoirs are often very subjective accounts. There are many reasons from this, not all of which are attibutable to outright lying.

1. It is based on fog of war and incomplete info. Many sub skippers on both sides reported hits or sinkings which made sense at the time, based from their viewpoint, but which could not be justified by postwar records;

2. It is based on memory. Unless someone took copious notes or rechecked the records, writing down an event years afterwards, just from memory is rarely accurate. Events get mixed up, certain aspects are forgotten, etc.

3. self-justification. more nebulous concept, but people have a hard time taking an objective look at themselves and will usually try to rationalise, justify or present their actions in a positive light.

I usually stay away from memoirs for those reasons and read thoroughly researched history books, like Blair's books: "Hitler's U-Boat War" and "Silent Victory" on the pacific submarine war.

On the wider concept of the romance of submarine warfare, I have always wondered about that as well. If you look at it objectively, the whole concept of a submarine in WW2 (whether U.S. or German) was to carry out sneak attacks on civilian ships which often resulted in the deaths of men, women and children. That is about as glamorous as being part of a bomber crew bombing enemy cities or snipers/sharpshooters in a land army.

I presume the "romance" comes directly out of WW2 propaganda. The Nazi regime glamourized U-Boat skippers and their exploits, painting them as aces and heroes. i.e:

http://ladyraine.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/kriegsmarine-poster.jpg

Even Allied propaganda painted U-Boat skippers as "dangerous" and "pirates" which gave them a glamorous anti-hero image, much like U.S. gangsters in the 20's and 30's. For example:

http://www.crazywebsite.com/Free-Galleries-01/USA_Patriotic/Pictures_WWII_Posters/WWII_Posters_Safety_Security_Loose_Talk_2.jpghttp://www.crazywebsite.com/Free-Galleries-01/USA_Patriotic/Pictures_WWII_Posters_LG/Careless_Talk_did_this_Keep_it_under_your_Stetson_ WWII_Poster_1md.jpg

http://www.hillac.de/cmc/bilder/2_8_4.jpg

[Onkel Neal]

Yes, it's a fictionalized account of a man's life during the war. And it's a damn good book when you view it through that lens. Period.
:sign_yeah:

[TarJak]

Truth can be hard to swallow. Now had you stated that "Das Boot" was not factual, then there'd be a public burning in this thar forum...

Yes, it's a fictionalized account of a man's life during the war. And it's a damn good book when you view it through that lens. Period.

Ah! but Das Boot was written and advertised as a fictionalised account whereas Iron Coffins author purports to have written a factual represenation of his career.

They both contain some facts however both are not totally factual.

[Westbroek]

This is a bit like the "Million Little Pieces" scandal, where the guy had to go on Oprah and beg for forgiveness about lying in a "memoir" about having some teeth removed.
Perhaps we should send Werner on to Oprah and let him see how he holds up?

[Subnuts]

Whether or not the book is a "damn good read" or "somewhat fictionalized" doesn't absolve Werner from the fact that he outright lied throughout much of Iron Coffins, committing the cardinal sin of "making sh&t up" and coming across as a goody two-shoes throughout. I know all about fog-of-war and faulty memories - but how does one "remember" sinking six ships in a convoy attack that never really happened? Werner promoted this book as the Gospel Truth and we all bought it hook line and sinker.

One of these days, Iron Coffins is going to be raked over the coals in the same manner that John Parshall and Anthony Tully took Mitsuo Fuchida to task in Shattered Sword.

[sharkbit]

The amount of blatant fabrication contained within. Werner has U-557 sinking seven ships on her first patrol, when only one was sunk in reality. He then has her sinking six ships on her third patrol, when again, only one was sunk. He then has U-230 attacking Convoy HX-229/SC-122, sinking seven ships of the 22 in total sunk from the two convoys. However, the boat never got close enough to either convoy to fire a single torpedo or shell at it! Finally, he describes attacking a convoy in January, 1945 near England, observing three distinct torpedo strikes. Official records fail to credit him with sinking or damaging a single ship during his career as a U-boat captain.


I'm currently reading Clay Blair's "Hitler's U-Boat War: The Hunters, 1939-1942" and I'm constantly amazed at the over inflation(sometimes by a huge amount) of tonnage sunk by the individual commanders and the claims of ships sunk that never were sunk. I realize that the fog of war and human failings are a big part of those excessive claims. I think that, at least to some degree, that may be one of the reasons for Werner's "over claiming" in his book. I'd still bet there was a certain amount of embellishment on Werner's part to make for "a good read".

I think it's been previously agreed in other threads on the subject that the best thing is not to use the book for any reference data.

I don't think I'll ever shelve the book forever and I'd even recommend it to people with the warning that it is closer to fiction than the truth. So many people believe everything they read in a book, even from a fiction book, as the truth.
Very good points though subnuts. I'll look forward to reading your entire review.

:)

[msalama]

Okay, you can all hate me now.

Why? Pretty much my verdict too when I first read it...

[Zedi]

It's hard for me to follow this, are you guys talking about http://www.uboat.net/boats/u557.htm ?

[flag4]

A few months ago, Neal asked me to write a review of Iron Coffins for the next almanac. As I'm not supposed to actually post the actual review on this forum, I thought I'd bring up some of the..."issues"...I have with Iron Coffins. In my view, this book is painfully overrated, factually dishonest, and shouldn't occupy the elevated position it holds in the U-boat "canon." So, here's a quick laundry list:

It's ridiculously high standing. Iron COffins is often thought of as a crowning masterpiece in the genre of submarine literature, the definitive account of life on a German U-boat, and a 100% factual account. Hasn't anyone ever heard of looking into secondary sources? I can study translated plans of U-570, read through Donitz's war diary, and examine the results of every convoy battle, all without having to fly to Germany and dig through old records.


The amount of blatant fabrication contained within. Werner has U-557 sinking seven ships on her first patrol, when only one was sunk in reality. He then has her sinking six ships on her third patrol, when again, only one was sunk. He then has U-230 attacking Convoy HX-229/SC-122, sinking seven ships of the 22 in total sunk from the two convoys. However, the boat never got close enough to either convoy to fire a single torpedo or shell at it! Finally, he describes attacking a convoy in January, 1945 near England, observing three distinct torpedo strikes. Official records fail to credit him with sinking or damaging a single ship during his career as a U-boat captain.


Werner's depiction of the Allied ASW effort. Based on Iron Coffins, Werner survived hundreds of aerial attacks, and several 30-hour long depth charge barrages. He's so lucky, though, that the Allies never used air-dropping homing torpedoes, Hedgehogs, sonobuoys, or hunter-killer groups against him. Considering the Allies has turned anti-submarine warfare into an artform by war's end, I find this hard to believe.


Werner's depiction of himself. He's a stereotypical "Good German" who happens to be politically neutral, has no opinion of the Nazis, stands up against the Gestapo when his father is arrested, and has only the classiest of affairs with French prost...I mean, ladies. Everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault, even when his boat gets sunk in harbor. He shoots down a plane single-handedly with an ancient machine gun and ends up in the French foreign legion. Seriously?


The reactions of U-boat veterans to the book has been glossed over. Jurgen Rohwer said that if one were to underline all of the errors in this book in red, it would look like a blood bath. The Association of German Submariners called it a "hack work totally without foundation." Iron Coffins was just as controversial as Das Boot when it came out, but people accept Herbert Werner more readily then they would Lothar-Gunther Buchheim. Why ignore these very real criticisms?


Werner's overall attitude. He wants us to pause and reflect on how horrible war is while embellishing on his wartime experiences. He writes a grim anti-war story while including exciting fabricated battle scenes to spice up the narrative and make it more palatable. I find this whole attitude condescending at best, and intellectually dishonest at worst.
Okay, you can all hate me now.


okay okay - i hate you now!!:DL

(...i loved the book and Das Boot...
...but i think Operation Drumbeat is up there on the top)

[mcarlsonus]

Wow! This thread, you people! FANTASTIC! You're all so well read and knowledgeable! Such great repartee, "snappy patter!" I AM ENJOYING THIS IMMENSELY - and frantically taking notes!

[flag4]

Wow! This thread, you people! FANTASTIC! You're all so well read and knowledgeable! Such great repartee, "snappy patter!" I AM ENJOYING THIS IMMENSELY - and frantically taking notes!


Go ahead - tell Subnuts you hate him - throw some more fuel on the fire...:O:

(...if you think this is bad check out some of the threads on SH5!!!)

[JU_88]

Yeah Im with you - Iron Coffins is a good read, but like Das Boot -its best swallowed with a pinch of salt or three.
Das Boot and Iron Coffins should be enjoyed by any self respecting Uboat / Sub enthusiast ,but for enterainment purposes only.
They should not be QFT in many respects!

If you want facts - stick to the history books which are written based on mutilple sources of infomation, not just the account of one guy!

[mcarlsonus]

Go ahead - tell Subnuts you hate him - throw some more fuel on the fire...:O:

(...if you think this is bad check out some of the threads on SH5!!!)

Subnuts, I hate you - but that's because I'm in denial...

I've checked and contributed to the threads on SH5 which is the reason, as mentioned in my first post, I'm "universally hated" in this Forum!

[Der_Meister]

Check out 'Shooting the War' by Otto Giese. Best Primary/First-Hand account on life aboard a U-Boot that I have ever read.

[flag4]

you could say that about the SH series...they are not fact but based on some kind of fact and hugely enjoyable.

those two books are cracking reads - i would love to have read them as a boy, side light on late at night in bed.

i found Das Boot very atmospheric, claustrophobic - its a shame his other novels are not translated.

Iron Coffins left me feeling sad for the whole thing - the sheer waste of men and machinery, the folly.

both men are very good writers and i take my hat off to them for what they have produced.

i believe Clay Blair's The Hunters ( which i started reading but put down) got criticisms because of his 'Over Americanisation-Interpretation' of that particular history: A History Book!

thats what i want from a story - feeling. i can go to the history books for the truth and Operation Drumbeat combined the two brilliantly - i did not want it to end.

[Sailor Steve]

Official records fail to credit him with sinking or damaging a single ship during his career as a U-boat captain.
I see that!

http://www.uboat.net/boats/patrols/u415.html
http://www.uboat.net/boats/patrols/u953.html

[Takao]

Or just go right to his bio: http://www.uboat.net/men/werner_herbert.htm


No Subnuts, I don't hate you! You are the Fox Mulder of the subsim set...
"The truth is out there."

Having read a book or five about u-boats before I read this one, I didn't find it all that impressive. The problem is, that for many, this was their "introduction" to u-boats and the take what is written in it to be the gospel.

This is a situation similar to Mitsuo Fuchida, although he has been discredited in Japan for many years, because of his work with Gordon Prange, he is still taken as gospel in America regarding his story.

[mcarlsonus]

There was SOMETHING I read years ago quoting verbatim from the diary of a Japanese submariner in WW1 that he'd kept current even as he died in that sub due to being unable to surface and, at that time, having no escape trunk. A primitive boat, it used a conventional gasoline engine for surface travel and, as he wrote, he was being overcome by gasoline fumes. Sad, but very interesting!

What WAS that? Does anyone know? Was it just a PART of a larger submarine-themed book?

[Subnuts]

There was SOMETHING I read years ago quoting verbatim from the diary of a Japanese submariner in WW1 that he'd kept current even as he died in that sub due to being unable to surface and, at that time, having no escape trunk. A primitive boat, it used a conventional gasoline engine for surface travel and, as he wrote, he was being overcome by gasoline fumes. Sad, but very interesting!

What WAS that? Does anyone know? Was it just a PART of a larger submarine-themed book?

I dug up a passage about this from The Navy Times Book Of Submarines:

In April 1910, one of Holland's Kobe-built submarines -Japanese No. 6- sank in sixty feet of water, without hope of rescue. No. 6 had been running submerged using the gasoline engine, taking suction through a primitive version of the "schnorkel," when waves washed over the open end, the float valve did not close, and water flowed into the boat. Commanding Officer Lieutenant Sakuma kept a running log of the almost three hours that he and his fellow crew members awaited the inevitable. "Words of apology fail me for having sunk His Majesty's Submarine No. 6," he wrote. "My subordinates are killed by my fault, but it is with pride that I inform you that the crew to a man have discharged their duties as sailors should with the utmost coolness until their dying moments."

He asked that this accident not be held against Japan's adoption of submarines, urged the Emperor to continue the search for the ideal boat, said farewell to friends and relatives, and closed the log: "My breathing is so difficult and painful. It is now 12:40 pm."

[robbo180265]

^^ I just got quite a chill reading that Subnuts.

Poor devil what a horrible way to die.

[mcarlsonus]

That's it, subnuts! THANKS !!! I no longer hate you whether in denial or not!

[mcarlsonus]

reiterating here, but RE-worthy of notice: FASCINATING THREAD !!!

[Takao]

A little more from another board I am on

On 15 April, 1910, one of these boats was lost with Lieutenant Sakuma, its commander, and the crew of fourteen men, during maneuvers in Hiroshima Bay. Lieutenant Sakuma's story of the tragedy lay in the conning tower when it was raised by a wrecking party from the cruiser Toyohashi. This sailor's log, hereunder quoted, recorded the creeping approach of a slow but certain death between 10 A.M. (after total immersion) and 12:40 P.M., the lingering ordeal thus lasting two hours and forty minutes. It was addressed to the Navy Department as a confidential report:"

"
Words of apology fail me for having sunk His majesty's submarine No. 6. My subordinates are killed by my fault, but it is with pride that I inform you that the crew to a man have discharged their duties as sailors should with the utmost coolness until their dying moments.
"We now sacrifice our lives for the sake of our country, but my fear is that the disaster will affect the future development of submarines. It is therefore my hope that nothing will daunt your determination to study the submarine until it is a perfect machine, absolutely reliable. We can then die without regret.
"It was while making a gasoline dive that the boat sank lower than was intended, and in our attempt to close the sluice the chain broke. We endeavored to stop the inrush of water with our hands, but too late, the water entered at the rear and the boat sank at an incline of 25 degrees.
"When it touched the bottom it was at an angle of 13 degrees. The current submerged the electric generator, put out the light, and the electric wires were burned. In a few minutes bad gas was generated, making it difficult for us to breathe.
"It was at 10 A. M. on the 15th inst. that the boat sank. Surrounded by poisonous gas, the crew strove to pump out the water. As soon as the boat sank the water in the main tank was being pumped out. The electric light was extinguished and the gauge was invisible, but it seems the water in the main tank was completely pumped out.
"The electric current has become useless, gas cannot be generated, and the hand pump is our only hope. The vessel is in darkness, and I note this down by the light through the conning tower at 11:45 A. M.
"The crew are now wet and it is extremely cold. It is my opinion that men embarking in submarines must possess the qualities of coolness and nerve, and must be extremely painstaking; they must be brave and daring in their handling of the boat. People may laugh at the opinion in view of my failure, but the statement is true.
"We have worked hard to pump out the water, but the boat is still in the same position. It is now twelve o'clock. The depth of water here is about ten fathoms.
"The crew of a submarine should be selected from the bravest, the coolest, or they will be of little use in time of crisis - in such as we are now. My brave men are doing their best.
"I always expect death when away from home. My will is therefore prepared and is in the locker. But this is of my private affairs. I hope Mr. Taguchi will send it to my father.
"A word to His majesty the Emperor. It is my earnest hope that Your majesty will supply the means of living to the poor families of the crew. This is my only desire, and I an so anxious to have it fulfilled.
"My respect and best regard to the following: Admiral Saito, Minister of the Navy; Vice Admirals Shinamura and Fujii, Rear Admiral Nawa, Yama****a and Narita - the air pressure is so light that I feel as if my eardrums will be broken - Captain Oguri and Ide, Commander Matsumura, Lieut-Commander Matsumura (this is my elder brother), Captain Funakoshi, Mr. Marita, and Mr. Ikuta - it is now 12:30 P.M. My breathing is so difficult and painful.
"I thought I could blow out gasoline, but I am intoxicated with it - Capt. Makano - it is now 12:40 P. M.

"Here the record ended. The crew had been suffocated by carbonic-acid gas."

and Lieutenant Tsutomu Sakuma's Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsutomu_Sakuma

[jazman]

I'm currently reading Clay Blair's "Hitler's U-Boat War: The Hunters, 1939-1942" and I'm constantly amazed at the over inflation(sometimes by a huge amount) of tonnage sunk by the individual commanders and the claims of ships sunk that never were sunk. I realize that the fog of war and human failings are a big part of those excessive claims. I think that, at least to some degree, that may be one of the reasons for Werner's "over claiming" in his book. I'd still bet there was a certain amount of embellishment on Werner's part to make for "a good read".



That overclaiming was called "Schepke Tonnage", since he was the worst of the offenders, and everyone knew it.

[Westbroek]

@Takao
That's such a haunting record. It's not much fun to read that, but I know that the people here at subsim will be interested to read it.
It's an interesting contrast: Being simultaneously repelled by such horrific understanding of the last moments of a life...of appreciating in a visceral way how fleeting life and our experiences on this planet are...and the desire to achieve that very understanding... man, it's near impossible to explain it in words, and I suppose that's why writings such as that need to be preserved.
Thanks to you, Mcarlsonus and Subnuts for piecing together the entirety of that posting... and I know eventually these goosebumps will go away...
Cheers,

[sharkbit]

"It is my opinion that men embarking in submarines must possess the qualities of coolness and nerve, and must be extremely painstaking; they must be brave and daring in their handling of the boat.

"The crew of a submarine should be selected from the bravest, the coolest, or they will be of little use in time of crisis - in such as we are now. My brave men are doing their best.


The whole passage was chilling, but these two lines really struck me. It seems to me that these lines ring true even today.

[kylania]

A little more from another board I am on

and Lieutenant Tsutomu Sakuma's Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsutomu_Sakuma

Wow... that's just... wow. Supremely powerful. :-?:o

[GoldenRivet]

Subnuts,

I don't disagree with your talking points.

However, they do not change the fact that i enjoyed reading the book. :up:

If Werner's goal was to give the reader an anti war sentiment, he was successful with at least this reader.

I think that one must be careful how they approach books on the subject matters such as this one.

on the one hand, there are proverbial text books on the subject which contain a great deal of facts and very little fanfare... and the way they read is testament to that; what i mean is, they read like text books.

Homer Hickam's Torpedo Junction comes to mind, well written, not a lot of fluff, just the facts, informative, in depth - but not what i would call a page turner.

on the other hand, there are books like Iron Coffins.

While books of the Iron Coffins variety may not contain a great deal of fact, and may actually contain a lot of bovine scatology... they come across with dramatic flare and exciting tone.

as any writer knows, if you want to sell a book, you have to write the stuff that people will want to read.

somewhere in between those two categories, you have a respectable book which contains a myriad of facts and a great and entertaining story.

the name of this "in between" book is... Steel Boat, Iron Hearts by Hans Goebler.

In this reader's opinion, it contains just the right amount of story and fact to make it the front running U-Boat related book in my tiny and probably insignificant collection.

followed closely by Torpedo Junction... with Iron Coffins bringing up the rear.

but, like i said... Iron Coffins was a fun read.

[IanC]

Whether or not the book is a "damn good read" or "somewhat fictionalized" doesn't absolve Werner from the fact that he outright lied throughout much of Iron Coffins, committing the cardinal sin of "making sh&t up" and coming across as a goody two-shoes throughout. I know all about fog-of-war and faulty memories - but how does one "remember" sinking six ships in a convoy attack that never really happened? Werner promoted this book as the Gospel Truth and we all bought it hook line and sinker.

One of these days, Iron Coffins is going to be raked over the coals in the same manner that John Parshall and Anthony Tully took Mitsuo Fuchida to task in Shattered Sword.

Subnuts I'm just wondering, what's with all the hate on a World War II veteran anyways? Werner survived The battle of the Atlantic, he brought his men home. He wrote a book that perfectly illustrated what the U-boat force went through and the tragedy of war. I don't care how many ships he said he sunk, the man was there.
Are you some kind of failed author with a bad case of 'book sales' envy? :hmmm:

[ajoleary]

What blasphemy!
Next you’re going to tell me that the movie U571 what not real either :O:


Like many others though, I enjoyed the book regardless of its ‘embellishments’.
Being a massive WWII naval history buff, I only hope people continue to write, make films and docos about this incredible period of our history.

Lest we forget.

[LukeFF]

Subnuts I'm just wondering, what's with all the hate on a World War II veteran anyways? Werner survived The battle of the Atlantic, he brought his men home. He wrote a book that perfectly illustrated what the U-boat force went through and the tragedy of war. I don't care how many ships he said he sunk, the man was there.
Are you some kind of failed author with a bad case of 'book sales' envy? :hmmm:

I think Subnuts makes his point quite clear: it's not that the book is not a good read; it's that Werner presented facts as truth when the patently are not.

I could write a book about what it's like to be a soldier in Iraq (because I was there). However, if I embellish what I write with a bunch of nonsense (but claim it is the truth), then I deserve to be called on the carpet for presenting out-and-out lies. Military veterans do not get carte blanche just because "they survived."

[IanC]

I think Subnuts makes his point quite clear: it's not that the book is not a good read; it's that Werner presented facts as truth when the patently are not.


Gosh, big deal. Still doesn't explain to me why Subnuts wants to see it, quote "raked over the coals". :roll:
The book as a whole, is so much bigger and more important, than the inaccuracies.

[robbo180265]

Gosh, big deal. Still doesn't explain to me why Subnuts wants to see it, quote "raked over the coals". :roll:
The book as a whole, is so much bigger and more important, than the inaccuracies.

I think he said that he was asked to write a review of it and decided to share his feelings with us.

I've read the book and whilst I thought it a jolly good read , I took some of what was written with a pinch of salt - as it would appear a few others did too.

I think a discussion about how we feel about a particular book is hardly "raking it over the coals" - just that , a discussion.

[daft]

A few months ago, Neal asked me to write a review of Iron Coffins for the next almanac. As I'm not supposed to actually post the actual review on this forum, I thought I'd bring up some of the..."issues"...I have with Iron Coffins. In my view, this book is painfully overrated, factually dishonest, and shouldn't occupy the elevated position it holds in the U-boat "canon." So, here's a quick laundry list:

It's ridiculously high standing. Iron COffins is often thought of as a crowning masterpiece in the genre of submarine literature, the definitive account of life on a German U-boat, and a 100% factual account. Hasn't anyone ever heard of looking into secondary sources? I can study translated plans of U-570, read through Donitz's war diary, and examine the results of every convoy battle, all without having to fly to Germany and dig through old records.



The amount of blatant fabrication contained within. Werner has U-557 sinking seven ships on her first patrol, when only one was sunk in reality. He then has her sinking six ships on her third patrol, when again, only one was sunk. He then has U-230 attacking Convoy HX-229/SC-122, sinking seven ships of the 22 in total sunk from the two convoys. However, the boat never got close enough to either convoy to fire a single torpedo or shell at it! Finally, he describes attacking a convoy in January, 1945 near England, observing three distinct torpedo strikes. Official records fail to credit him with sinking or damaging a single ship during his career as a U-boat captain.



Werner's depiction of the Allied ASW effort. Based on Iron Coffins, Werner survived hundreds of aerial attacks, and several 30-hour long depth charge barrages. He's so lucky, though, that the Allies never used air-dropping homing torpedoes, Hedgehogs, sonobuoys, or hunter-killer groups against him. Considering the Allies has turned anti-submarine warfare into an artform by war's end, I find this hard to believe.



Werner's depiction of himself. He's a stereotypical "Good German" who happens to be politically neutral, has no opinion of the Nazis, stands up against the Gestapo when his father is arrested, and has only the classiest of affairs with French prost...I mean, ladies. Everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault, even when his boat gets sunk in harbor. He shoots down a plane single-handedly with an ancient machine gun and ends up in the French foreign legion. Seriously?



The reactions of U-boat veterans to the book has been glossed over. Jurgen Rohwer said that if one were to underline all of the errors in this book in red, it would look like a blood bath. The Association of German Submariners called it a "hack work totally without foundation." Iron Coffins was just as controversial as Das Boot when it came out, but people accept Herbert Werner more readily then they would Lothar-Gunther Buchheim. Why ignore these very real criticisms?



Werner's overall attitude. He wants us to pause and reflect on how horrible war is while embellishing on his wartime experiences. He writes a grim anti-war story while including exciting fabricated battle scenes to spice up the narrative and make it more palatable. I find this whole attitude condescending at best, and intellectually dishonest at worst.

Okay, you can all hate me now.



I good write up regarding some issues that has been there for quite a long while. It is at times glossed over since many see the book as something of an iconic work for anyone interested in submarine warfare during the Second World War. It is a very good thing that these issues are brought to the from, and they should always be kept in mind while reading.

[tater]

Fuchida was raked over the coals by the Japanese themselves long before Shattered Sword (which is a great book), it's just that it was in Japanese, and historians elsewhere just parroted previous acceptance of Fuchida's book.

Regarding Iron Coffins, it absolutely deserves to be "raked over the coals" and discredited if it was presented as history when in fact it was fiction. Firing 4 fish, hearing 4 booms, and claiming 4 sinkings when in fact all 4 hit one ship is one thing, making up entire convoys, etc is another.

If you make the claim that a book is true, then it deserves very harsh treatment if it is made up.

It deserves to be called "fraudulent" in fact if that is the case. I don;t buy ww2-themed novels for the most part (read maybe 2), so if I had bought IC I'd be pissed (I read it long ago, but it was lent by my uncle, and I was a kid at the time).

[Nordmann]

I think Subnuts makes his point quite clear: it's not that the book is not a good read; it's that Werner presented facts as truth when the patently are not.

I could write a book about what it's like to be a soldier in Iraq (because I was there). However, if I embellish what I write with a bunch of nonsense (but claim it is the truth), then I deserve to be called on the carpet for presenting out-and-out lies. Military veterans do not get carte blanche just because "they survived."

QFT.

Anyone presenting fabrication as fact deserves to be raked over the coals, regardless of how well the book reads.

[mcarlsonus]

Thanks so much for fleshing out Lt. Sakuma's story. What a brave, selfless man - and what a loss to humanity! As mentioned, I remember reading this several years ago - and it stayed with me. But, I simply couldn't remember WHERE I read it - unlike an story I read in the old Omni magazine regarding time travel to pilfer resources from previous years and using motorcycle-riding Mongol Hoards - including Genghis himself - as, "enforcers!"

[flag4]

...where does Herbert A Werner claim all he wrote is true?


It's ridiculously high standing. Iron COffins is often thought of as a crowning masterpiece in the genre of submarine literature, the definitive account of life on a German U-boat, and a 100% factual account.

"...is often thought of..." by who - Werner?

did Werner ever claim it was all true. and if so is this information written down somewhere for us to see for ourseleves.

dont forget, Publishers will go to extremes to sell a title - Werner may not have had editorial control or a final say. as of yet, in this discussion, we do not know what Werner himself thinks or claims.

Rumour and accusation are not a ground base for a balanced discussion. i am yet to be convinced by Subnuts well written/structured summary: what we need is evidence for a conclusion.

[mcarlsonus]

You know, there is a culture in military circles - and I'm sure it was around before, during, and after WW2 - that traditionally OVER-inflates the capabilities and successes of ones enemies! If you fought and won against, "that guy," one can rest assured the referred to, "guy" was the toughest, meanest, most skilled person who ever walked the Earth! Enhancing someone's track record to promote sales isn't unusual.

[tater]

I just read the introduction on books.google.com.

The author absolutely claims it is true. He says the book tells of his personal experiences and exists to "set the record straight." He goes on to state it was checked vs his notes, and other sources though still mostly from memory, and also claims the dates and hours are usually accurate "to the minute."

You cannot argue it was written and presented as history. Any factual errors that are clearly made up damn the book as a fraud. Minor differences with reality as would be expected in a personal account are fine, no recollection is perfect. But it crosses the line when things are made up.

OP should write a review for Amazon spelling out the errors so there is at least one review there that isn't glowing.

[Armistead]

Maybe the facts clear up the real reason he survived the war. I've read it several times and who can not question the super skills he claims. I mean really he went through every possible situation possible and lived. I didn't have to check the facts to realize he added much fiction to the book.

I also agree with the post on Gene and the Barb, another ego maniac.

[IanC]

I also agree with the post on Gene and the Barb, another ego maniac.

Hmm ego maniac... That gets me thinking. How do any of us know the state of mind Werner was in when he wrote his book? Maybe the guy suffered a mental break down after the war. I'm guessing it's not that hard to 'lose it' if you're a sensitive person who saw all your friends die, and witnessed the other horrors of war.
How do we know what he wrote was, for him, outright lies? Don't be so quick to judge, try to imagine walking a mile in those shoes.

[Nisgeis]

My book also has an introduction written by the author that says:

"This book, which tells of my personal experiences in the German U-Boat force in World War II fulfills an obligation of long standing. Since the end of that destructive war, the role of the U-boat Force has at times been distorted and underestimated, even by military historians who should have known better. Because I was one of the few U-boat commanders who fought through most of the warand who managed to survive, I felt it was my duty to my fallen comrades to set the record straight."

[Moeceefus]

stephen colbert's word "truthiness" comes to mind :hmmm:

[mcarlsonus]

I also agree with the post on Gene and the Barb, another ego maniac.

Thank YOU - and welcome to the Island of Banished Subsim Posters!

stephen colbert's word "truthiness" comes to mind :hmmm:

As in, "Take that, dire bunny! Fear my sword of truthiness!" ?

[Subnuts]

I know some people are easy to forgive Werner since he was probably suffering from enormous amounts of emotional stress after the war. Fine.

What bothers me is Werner insists that this book is the truth, is accurate down to minute, wants to set the record straight, thinks he's doing us all a favor by telling the "real story," and so on and so forth. Fuchida pulled the same shtick with Midway: The Battle That Doomed Japan and almost no one in the West bothered to question the validity of his statements for nearly five decades. He was there...wasn't that good enough? Now we have tripe like Scorpion Down and All Hands Down being taken as the "gospel truth" about the loss of the Scorpion Down by folks who don't understand the mechanics of modern submarines, Cold War politics, or the effect of a torpedo impact on a submarine's pressure hull. Sure, these books might be more interesting then the drier, non-conspiratorial takes on the subject, but they're still bull****!

Perhaps I'm just a nitpicky amateur naval historian, but it pisses me off when blatantly fabricated or inaccurate books on naval matters get published and people accept them unconditionally because they're "well written" or "feel truthful." I might be a skeptical bastard, but I think I've been given plenty of ammunition over the years.

[tater]

http://www.lazydork.com/movies/galaxyquest.jpg
Which one is flag4, and which is ianc?

[sergei]

You just made me spill my beer :D

[IanC]

Which one is flag4, and which is ianc?

tater instead of making a fool of yourself by posting a silly picture, maybe you can intelligently answer my post #65 instead?

[tater]

Post #65 is silly.

The guy fabricates war stories, publishes them as history, then your reaction is that the most plausible rationale is mental illness?

The most plausible explanation is that he wanted to make money, and if it was self-serving into the bargain, so much the better.

That explains it without the fantasy of mental illness. It's a fabrication, and he did it for his own reasons. Doesn't change that it is a fabrication, and bad history.

tater

PS---making someone spill his beer or spit coffee through his nose onto a keyboard is like firing a torpedo blind at max range and taking out a battleship. Worth it :)

[IanC]

That's what I thought about you. Thanks for confirming.

[mcarlsonus]

SO, anyway...

I was watching an occasionally-funny movie The Onion News. About an hour in, there is a faux roundtable discussion regarding the movie's treatment and portrayal of stereotypical non-WASP's. Among the participants was Gedde Watanabe, who played, "Long Duc Dong" in Sixteen Candles, among other things. He was asked how he felt about the way Asians were being portrayed in the movie and responded, "Me no rikey!" I was reminded of Eugene Fluckey's portrayal of the two POW's he had on his boat during the time Thunder Below took place. Similar conversation between Our Hero and POW's was routine. He named one of them, "Kamikaze." Can't remember the other, but only one was actually Japanese. Of course, under Fluckey's tutelage, both, "saw the light" and changed loyalties with great rapidity. One of 'em was actually disappointed he wasn't allowed to go ashore and help out on the train mining mission!

In the picture above, #2 from the left is me. Someone was holding up a donut just offscreen when the picture was taken...

[Subnuts]

I was just looking through my review of "Iron Coffins" and noticed this passage:

It was much to my surprise, then, that a recent discussion of this book on the forum ended in a prolonged flame war.

Shame I didn't include any ironic statements about history repeating itself.

[mcarlsonus]

I was just looking through my review of "Iron Coffins" and noticed this passage:

It was much to my surprise, then, that a recent discussion of this book on the forum ended in a prolonged flame war.

Shame I didn't include any ironic statements about history repeating itself.

I admire your patience! You are, of course, absolutely correct - and that's unfortunate!

[Nisgeis]

I was just looking through my review of "Iron Coffins" and noticed this passage:

It was much to my surprise, then, that a recent discussion of this book on the forum ended in a prolonged flame war.

Shame I didn't include any ironic statements about history repeating itself.

Nah, in other threads before lots of people have stated that it is a work of absolute truth and it all did happen and people were just saying it wasn't true because they were jealous of Werner's l33t hax0r skillz or something. (I'm paraphrasing).

Now, it's an argument over whether the book is the work of a mentally ill man, or whether he wrote a book bigging himself up for personal gain, or whether Werner ever claimed it was true and is the victim of a publisher twisting the introduction.

No one's arguing over whether it's true or not, it seems to have been agreed upon that it is a good read, but not representative of the career of Werner, but an amalgamation of what perhaps other commanders went through. I haven't read it yet, but I'm pleased that it will be a 'good read' when I do, but won't be taking it as gospel. Thanks for posting the OP.

[flag4]

http://www.lazydork.com/movies/galaxyquest.jpg
Which one is flag4, and which is ianc?


HEY! - i'd just got promoted that day:D

thanks for the mamory!

[Zoomer96]

I read Iron Coffins about thirty years ago. Back then we didn't have the internet, submarine simulations, or easy access to historical facts. So all this time I assumed he was a top Uboat ace! I guess I'll have to find an old copy and look at it again. Well, I thought it was a good read anyhow.

[Jeffg]

I was always wondering why Herbert Werner has never has never granted interviews. I know that during the writing of Shadow Divers he refused to be interviewed. I might be wrong as my wife says I am never right.

JeffG

[Joe Bob]

I read Iron Coffins many times when I was a kid and recently purchased it to see how it held up. I immediately recognized many errors of course and was greatly disappointed. It felt as if an old friend had let me down but by the end of the book I was still glad I bought it.

If you recall the period of time he wrote the book, the late 1960's there was still a lot of misinformation about the actions of the U boat arm in WW2. I think Werner wanted to give a personal view of what it was like. I also think he wanted to get that story published. At a time when there were still plenty of veterans around, what publisher is he going to find to sell a book about U boats where no ships are sunk. Therefore I think he embellished (greatly) the events that happened under other skippers and perhaps some events after the war. As far as his own success as a skipper, I remember saying he made an attack and hearing explosions but not claiming he saw any ships sunk by his torpedoes. His accounts begin to ring true to me when he gets into his commands later in the war.

I don't think it was an ego thing, I think it was what was necessary to get a book published during that period of time. I think he was wrong to say it is all true and I hope it's flaws become widely know via the web, but that hardly makes him unique among WW2 memoir authors. I now see the book as one that does a good job of giving you a sense of what it must have felt like to survive those times.

PS: if he was mentally ill, it was not debilitating, I saw trucks from his post war business up and down the Eastern Seaboard of the US for decades

[thisdougsforu]

Well, I wish I had read this thread last week....I bought Iron Coffins and I'm about halfway through it. I had just read Sledge's "With the Old Breed", so I was in the mood for some WW2 reading.

Iron Coffins has been a compelling read thus far....but after hearing all the stuff in this thread, it makes me not care so much to finish it. Oh, I'm sure I will, but it's disappointing.

I'm a long time WW2 nerd, but recently got into subs via SH3, so I wasn't aware that much of this book was made up, I had just heard it was a classic tale of life on a Uboat. What a shame :(

[Ducimus]

Iron Coffins has been a compelling read thus far....but after hearing all the stuff in this thread, it makes me not care so much to finish it.

If you don't finish it, you'll miss the part where he prattles on about trying to get out of being impressed in to the french foreign legion! :rotfl2:

[kylania]

I'm a long time WW2 nerd, but recently got into subs via SH3, so I wasn't aware that much of this book was made up, I had just heard it was a classic tale of life on a Uboat. What a shame :(

Same for me when I read this back when SH3 came out. Might give it another read now. I remember enjoying it, but didn't realize it was all "enhanced" :)

[Steeltrap]

Both of O'Kane's books are great (Wahoo and Clear the Bridge). So is Cremer's U333. I have all three.

Cremer does a great job of conveying the sadness and stupidity of the exercise. His matter of fact discussions of rather hair-raising events are remarkable. I remember seeing him intervierwed in World at War where he describes the episode where U333 is caught on the surface by a corvette (HMS Bluebell? I'm going from memory....could look it up I guess!). His wounds were dreadful. As he says in the book, he and the skipper of the corvette went on to exchange Christmas cards after the war (I'm pretty sure the skipper was a New Zealander, and he and his wife sent Cremer food parcels when they learned he was alive and the conditions of post-war Germany; I might be wrong).

O'kane, too, is great to read. So much around the technical abilities of the boats and the issues around pre-war doctrine and crappy torps etc etc.

My preference is for writings that are not sensational in their presentation, but describe sensational things.

I've also read some of the many 'reference works' (i.e. academic in nature) available.

Never read Iron Coffins.

p.s. let's try to keep bitchiness out of here, please?

[caine007]

I just finished reading Iron Coffins.

A few alarm bells did go off before I read this post (mostly the reported depths they seemed to routinely dive to - 280+ metres, the 'hiding' from destroyers behind merchant ships and the almost faultless accuracy of most of their torpedo attacks) but at the same time it was still a good read just for the immersion factor.

It's pity that some wouldn't be able to pick out some of the more blatant inaccuracies but I still think it conveys a sense of the sudden change in fortunes of the u-boat war and the hopelessness that begins to set in.

Read it with a pinch of salt.

[Zedwardson]

I haven't read Iron Coffens (though it is on my kindle for a read) and while you may laugh about the French Foreign Legion, a lot of german troops who surrendered to the french, ended up being put into the French Foreign Legion (the other option was to be turned back to the soviets) thus many Germans wanted to make sure they surrendered to the Brits or Americans.


Also, which book is it where the author (a us submerine commander) talks about reconning a small atoll and since they didn't have a good map of it, they outlined it on Toilet Paper and blew it up using a camera lens to make a bigger map? :D

[Rip]

I haven't read Iron Coffens (though it is on my kindle for a read) and while you may laugh about the French Foreign Legion, a lot of german troops who surrendered to the french, ended up being put into the French Foreign Legion (the other option was to be turned back to the soviets) thus many Germans wanted to make sure they surrendered to the Brits or Americans.


Also, which book is it where the author (a us submerine commander) talks about reconning a small atoll and since they didn't have a good map of it, they outlined it on Toilet Paper and blew it up using a camera lens to make a bigger map? :D


I think that would be the Wewak harbor recon conducted by the Wahoo with Mush Morton commanding and Richard O'Kane serving as XO. IIRC it was the first war patrol after Morton took over from the CO O'Kane hated that was very conservative.

[The Duck]

Hello all.
New to this site.
Just been reading the comments on "Iron Coffins".
I thought it an interesting book but am now slightly disillusioned, hey ho what's real these days?
"The Longest Patrol" is also a good read.
I realise I've be following an old thread here so let's get up to date.

My interest is in one boat only: U-953.
My uncle Hans Harder was a crew member of this boat.
I have been trying to gather information about Hans and the boat for some time now.
Any pictures, details history, whatever would be very welcome.

History from my point that may be useful to followers here is as follows.

Hans was Born in Neuminster Germany on the 2nd May 1922.
Following the surrender of the boat, he was taken to Huyton, Liverpool to a POW camp. There he met my mothers' sister, they married and Hans stayed in Liverpool after hostilities ceased.
He worked first of all down the mines in the St Helens area and eventually ended up working for Fords Halewood.
My own father died when I was six and Hans became a "second" father to me and my two brothers. Hence my belated interest in his past.
Sadly Hans died a number of years ago so I'm not able to get any direct information.
I look forward to hearing from anyone with any information.
Thanks in advance.
The Duck