SH5 (campaign) is so boring

[Zedi]

Guys, I don't know what to do with this game anymore. Everything is sooooo boring, I find it really hard to play it anymore. Tried everything to spice it up a bit (mods, 100% realism, attacking Scapa on surface etc), but still... it gets more and more boring and hard to have fun with it.

Today I tried to play again the Western approaches campaign. I have like 5 mission here and for more than 2 hours (for real) I tried to find at least 1 target that can count for any of these missions. So I was zig zag-ing the whole Atlantic and all I found was a group of 5 Dido's that got "stuck" on me in the middle of Atlantic, so I needed to save/reload to shake them down.

So how you guys manage to have fun with this game? Share some tips, anything that can spice up a bit this game.

[Ablemaster]

Mabye the expected patch will help things a bit, well lets hope so, personally i dont use SH5 so much anymore its got nice graphics but the gameplay spoils it for me, hoping after a couple of patches it may be better.

[captainprid]

I like to do a lot of harbour raiding but unfortunately, the AI problems, lack of nets and mines and emplacements make it very easy to sneak in, sink a few ships and then get out again.
I suppose part of the fun is actually looking for ships on the high seas, in addition the lack of seas packed with boats is slightly more realistic. Having said that, the mission requirements are so unrealistic, they are laughable seeing as though most commanders were lucky to see perhaps two ships a month in RL.

I enjoy going up and down the convoy routes looking for large convoys and seeing how I do against them.

I have to say that the game would be better in the concept of submerged in the day, surfaced at night actually worked!!

One thing to consider is that what you have described is very close to what submarine warfare was actually like.......Weeks of boredom followed by minutes of intense action

[kylania]

So how you guys manage to have fun with this game? Share some tips, anything that can spice up a bit this game.

If you're not enjoying the missions, completely ignore them. Just play it how you'd normally play SH3, go out and sink tonnage.

[SteamWake]

Or just go play something else for a while...

Honestly :nope:

[SabreHawk]

As to the western approaches mission you dont want to be in the middle of the Atlantic that would be too far out I think.
Click on the mission icon and note the area it shows, then with your map tool make a circle that matches that and then plot your courses to stay within it. Then whatever you find and sink will count towards the mission goal.

As to being bored, well thats a personal view and is dependent on what you expect from a sim of ths genre. It's not for everyone and im sure that many gamers out there would in fact find it boring. It's a strategy game thats not based so much on constant action but of thinking and planning.
Could be that it's just not really your cup of tea, and nothing wrong with that. As I said this type of game just doesnt appeal to most gamers who are used to things being more action oriented.

[Nisgeis]

Guys, I don't know what to do with this game anymore. Everything is sooooo boring, I find it really hard to play it anymore. Tried everything to spice it up a bit (mods, 100% realism, attacking Scapa on surface etc), but still... it gets more and more boring and hard to have fun with it.

Have you tried any of the mods available? If you want a more challenging harbour raiding experience, try one of the AI mods on offer. There are other mods that affect other aspects of gameplay too, so take a browse in the mods section and soon you'll be playing a different game.

[Westbroek]

+1
I've learned to not bother trying to get my friends into subsims anymore. Too much CoD in their blood to have the patience to sit and think and really put yourself into the shoes of a slow paced, frustration filled war.
I enjoy the parts of cruising around trying to find a large convoy... receiving position reports, figuring the odds of being able to intercept, and then (hopefully) going for it ahead flank and diving to hear the sweet sounds of a convoy rattling through the ocean. I mean, I love it just as much as blasting schitt out of the water. But then, it's really not for everybody.
If that part bores you, maybe try some of Lorka's arcade mods. Might extend the playability for a day or two. Then go buy Prince of Persia.

[mookiemookie]

The lack of ship variety makes it boring for me. I'm tired of seeing
Hog Island Ships
"Large Steamers" (Liberty Ships)
Ranger Class Tankers
Cimarron Class Tankers

Sinking the same 4 ships over and over is dull.

[ddrgn]

Or just go play something else for a while...

Honestly :nope:

Settle down troll.

We are working past the problems and are offering advice about a game here, let us do our thing. You can go now.

[Zedi]

I think is more about a bad campaign design. Just getting out in the middle of nowhere, waiting for months to blow up a ship, is maybe realistic, but not fun. Go there, sink that, refill. So the whole campaign is about to find a large convoy, get into the right position, fire the torpedoes, escape then refill.

I was thinking how fun can be a more specific type of mission. Something that sound very easy and casual, but end with a huge blow. Something like this:

A ship loaded with important war documents/troops or whatever and with some light escorts will leave port X heading to port Y in the next few days. Intercept it and sunk it. Sounds damn boring, nothing special or hard.

But when we arrive there, we found out that Thomsen already sunk our target and the enemy escorts are hunting him down. :D They managed to damage his ship pretty bad so he was forced to surface. So sudden the whole things go hot and we have to choose very fast .. help Thomsen or stay safe far away.

But things go worst. Out from nowhere a scout plane shows up and indicates to the escorts our position, so one of the escort ship is heading on full speed to us guided by the plane and his sonar. In the meantime Thomsen, our best friend, is screaming for help :D Also your crew should start screaming, going crazy.. maybe some of the crew members start to disobey orders.. you know, like we saw in Das Boot. We have a FPS here, so I should be able to get out my gun and shot down any crew member who disobey me :P

Now this would be a very fun mission, we could feel the tension and every mission or campaign would be really dynamic. I mean, we would never know what we can expect out there and objectives are changing rapidly. You have to think, react and calculate very fast like a real captain. This game should be one of the most hardcore game ever, not some casual sim with nice graphics.

[Westbroek]

A mission like that would require HEAVY scripting. I agree it would be a lot of intense fun and having a bunch of those missions would be a great game. However, replayability is a big factor for me. Heavy scripting is always going to be the same and a mission like that would be playable maybe two times, maybe three times, and then, you know, you get it. Time to move on.
I like open ended missions where you engage your imagination as much as are told what happens. Maybe I'm old fashioned.

[mookiemookie]

Just getting out in the middle of nowhere, waiting for months to blow up a ship, is maybe realistic, but not fun.

[...]

This game should be one of the most hardcore game ever, not some casual sim with nice graphics.

So which one is it? You're talking out of both sides of your mouth here.

For folks like me, waiting for months to sink a ship is fun. :DL

[Zedi]

A mission like that would require HEAVY scripting. I agree it would be a lot of intense fun and having a bunch of those missions would be a great game. However, replayability is a big factor for me. Heavy scripting is always going to be the same and a mission like that would be playable maybe two times, maybe three times, and then, you know, you get it. Time to move on.
I like open ended missions where you engage your imagination as much as are told what happens. Maybe I'm old fashioned.

It is heavy scripting, but happens in a small area stuffed with some random events. Like the scout plane, or.. maybe our target joined a huge heavy guarded convoy in the meantime. Or .. after we get into the position to have the perfect shot at the main target in our back shows up a beautiful liner or a carrier with a lot of escorts and planes. Or Thomsen and his drunk crew join us and go crazy in different way every time :D

These things can be random stuff and events that makes a simple task in a very difficult one, so every time the mission can be different. Yeah, I'm dreaming and that's because I just love SH and I can't stop to think about how nice could be, how fun would be to jump off from the chair after a tense mission and say .. **** yeah, now I need a break, this fight was awesome!! :)

[mr chris]

The lack of ship variety makes it boring for me. I'm tired of seeing

Hog Island Ships
"Large Steamers" (Liberty Ships)
Ranger Class Tankers
Cimarron Class Tankers

Sinking the same 4 ships over and over is dull.

Same here. It's my major gripe with the game. Hopefully in time this will be rectified By the Modders or some form of DLC?

[kylania]

A ship loaded with important war documents/troops or whatever and with some light escorts will leave port X heading to port Y in the next few days. Intercept it and sunk it. Sounds damn boring, nothing special or hard.

But when we arrive there, we found out that Thomsen already sunk our target and the enemy escorts are hunting him down. :D They managed to damage his ship pretty bad so he was forced to surface. So sudden the whole things go hot and we have to choose very fast .. help Thomsen or stay safe far away.

But things go worst. Out from nowhere a scout plane shows up and indicates to the escorts our position, so one of the escort ship is heading on full speed to us guided by the plane and his sonar. In the meantime Thomsen, our best friend, is screaming for help :D Also your crew should start screaming, going crazy.. maybe some of the crew members start to disobey orders.. you know, like we saw in Das Boot. We have a FPS here, so I should be able to get out my gun and shot down any crew member who disobey me :P

That mission is already in game, the single mission "The Fate of U-110". Your first description all the way up to being sighted by the plane you'd never see. That's just mission description.

The rest of it is just scripted fluff, not gameplay. The second time a crew went crazy when they were sighted by a destroyer people would come and bitch about how their crew didn't do what they were supposed to.

We don't have an FPS, there's nothing FPS about the game other than the controls WASD used for moving a camera.


Now this would be a very fun mission, we could feel the tension and every mission or campaign would be really dynamic. I mean, we would never know what we can expect out there and objectives are changing rapidly.

Problem is, that's not dynamic at all, it's entirely scripted. There's a huge difference between "dynamic" and "random". Objectives do change, though possibly not rapidly. I think you're expecting a different scale of dynamic action.

The CAMPAIGN is dynamic, the encounters possibly aren't. If you do A then B can happen. If you choose to go to the Med, you get those missions, if you choose to stay in the Atlantic you can visit America and do those missions. That's a dynamic campaign. Not small scale, people running around scripted sequences, or individual ship intercepts.

Anyway, bottom line is you have the mission editor, so nothing is stopping you from making the missions you want to play. :)

[sergei]

So the whole campaign is about to find a large convoy, get into the right position, fire the torpedoes, escape then refill.

Wasn't that the whole point of the U Boat Atlantic Campaign? :06:

[Westbroek]

Exactly.
And additionally, if the uboot war is going the way it should, it won't be all Das Boot every time you engage the enemy with people screaming and having break downs and crying. (And anyway, if they are, it reflects very poorly on you as their captain).
Calm, methodical and effective is the most satisfying attitude for captain and crew. If you read the accounts of real submariners (Not Bucheim) they didn't have the luxury of emoting their fears and anxieties, and didn't spend time talking about their chances of being killed. It was a science.

[SabreHawk]

Actually if this sim were 100% realistic, it would in fact be THE most boring and arduous sim on the planet. Cause thats how it was for the real boats and their crews, make no mistake about it.
And Das Boot BTW makes this very clear. What was it, uhhhh 56 days at sea and only one convoy, a few planes and DD's all warship and aircraft encounters except for one DD the first one encountered(which he stupidly tried to attack, and their patrol was nearly over because of it.) they did nothing but avoid them. Adn they never even got close to that first convoy due to the DD driving them under.
No they did not do any battles with aircraft what so ever, each time they dove to safety, and on one occasion they nearly bought the farm even so.

Like I said, it isn't everyone's cup of tea.

[Onkel Neal]

Guys, I don't know what to do with this game anymore. Everything is sooooo boring, I find it really hard to play it anymore. Tried everything to spice it up a bit (mods, 100% realism, attacking Scapa on surface etc), but still... it gets more and more boring and hard to have fun with it.

Today I tried to play again the Western approaches campaign. I have like 5 mission here and for more than 2 hours (for real) I tried to find at least 1 target that can count for any of these missions. So I was zig zag-ing the whole Atlantic and all I found was a group of 5 Dido's that got "stuck" on me in the middle of Atlantic, so I needed to save/reload to shake them down.

So how you guys manage to have fun with this game? Share some tips, anything that can spice up a bit this game.



Pssst! You're playing the wrong game. (http://xbox.joystiq.com/2010/03/31/submerge-yourself-into-naval-assault-the-killing-tide/)

[Placoderm]

Have you tried any of the mods available? If you want a more challenging harbour raiding experience, try one of the AI mods on offer. There are other mods that affect other aspects of gameplay too, so take a browse in the mods section and soon you'll be playing a different game.


Did you actually read his post?

Here, let me help you with the most pertinent part: ..."Tried everything to spice it up a bit (mods, 100% realism, attacking Scapa on surface etc),..."


I beleive he was also referring to the strict scripting of the supposed "Dynamic Campaign" that was adding to his frustration when he wrote: "I tried to find at least 1 target that can count for any of these missions"

I myself have also been frustrated with the very specific mission goals that border on the ridiculously absurd, and which out of necessity lead a player into ignoring perfectly legitimate targets that we would not have hesitated in shooting in previous renditions of SH...all so that we can hunt a very specific battleship or taskforce, in essence 'gaming' the 'game'.

Just last night I passed up a perfectly juicy convoy that I never before would have ignored (nor would any real u-boat captain in his right mind) because it was located a wee bit too close to the outside edge of my scripted patrol zone, and thus I most likely would have received no 'credit' for my efforts. In wartime (and in previous sims) I would have hunted that convoy down to the last ship or torpedo, knowing deep inside that the war materials I was depriving the enemy were more important than sinking another 'capitol ship'...but in this game (as gorgeous as it is) that taste of realism is deprived me.

I keep trying to like this game, but am more and more placed in the same position as the OP when it comes to the concessions made to realism for the sake of the 'game'.



:salute:

[Placoderm]

I think is more about a bad campaign design. Just getting out in the middle of nowhere, waiting for months to blow up a ship, is maybe realistic, but not fun. Go there, sink that, refill. So the whole campaign is about to find a large convoy, get into the right position, fire the torpedoes, escape then refill.


Ok...well this is where I cannot agree with you. The U-boat war was exactly like what you describe there at the end. Months of tedium punctuated with moments of terror. It is the rarity that should make those moments so special to the subsimmer.

I cannot defend wanting to turn this into more of a scripted game, as you describe in the second half of your post. Making things more 'exciting' is not what is needed. What you are describing sounds more like the hollywood travesty that is "U-571" as opposed to the classic "Das Boot".

[IanC]

I beleive he was also referring to the strict scripting of the supposed "Dynamic Campaign" that was adding to his frustration when he wrote: "I tried to find at least 1 target that can count for any of these missions"

I myself have also been frustrated with the very specific mission goals that border on the ridiculously absurd, and which out of necessity lead a player into ignoring perfectly legitimate targets that we would not have hesitated in shooting in previous renditions of SH...all so that we can hunt a very specific battleship or taskforce, in essence 'gaming' the 'game'.

Just last night I passed up a perfectly juicy convoy that I never before would have ignored (nor would any real u-boat captain in his right mind) because it was located a wee bit too close to the outside edge of my scripted patrol zone, and thus I most likely would have received no 'credit' for my efforts. In wartime (and in previous sims) I would have hunted that convoy down to the last ship or torpedo, knowing deep inside that the war materials I was depriving the enemy were more important than sinking another 'capitol ship'...but in this game (as gorgeous as it is) that taste of realism is deprived me.

I keep trying to like this game, but am more and more placed in the same position as the OP when it comes to the concessions made to realism for the sake of the 'game'.



:salute:

Ok now I understand what the OP was getting at. Wasn't sure if he found SH5 boring or submarine warfare in general. So it is the scripted nature of SH5 that is the problem.

[John Channing]

Did you actually read his post?

Here, let me help you with the most pertinent part: ..."Tried everything to spice it up a bit (mods, 100% realism, attacking Scapa on surface etc),..."


I beleive he was also referring to the strict scripting of the supposed "Dynamic Campaign" that was adding to his frustration when he wrote: "I tried to find at least 1 target that can count for any of these missions"

I myself have also been frustrated with the very specific mission goals that border on the ridiculously absurd, and which out of necessity lead a player into ignoring perfectly legitimate targets that we would not have hesitated in shooting in previous renditions of SH...all so that we can hunt a very specific battleship or taskforce, in essence 'gaming' the 'game'.

Just last night I passed up a perfectly juicy convoy that I never before would have ignored (nor would any real u-boat captain in his right mind) because it was located a wee bit too close to the outside edge of my scripted patrol zone, and thus I most likely would have received no 'credit' for my efforts. In wartime (and in previous sims) I would have hunted that convoy down to the last ship or torpedo, knowing deep inside that the war materials I was depriving the enemy were more important than sinking another 'capitol ship'...but in this game (as gorgeous as it is) that taste of realism is deprived me.

I keep trying to like this game, but am more and more placed in the same position as the OP when it comes to the concessions made to realism for the sake of the 'game'.



:salute:

You are aware that you don't have to complete your objectives, aren't you? You can do what you want, go where you want and sink what you want and the campaign will roll along regardless. It will just play out differently than it would if you completed some, or all, of your objectives.

You cannot hope to win a war without completing the objectives laid out by HQ because you are not in posession of all of the information that they are. However, sucessful captains were rarely shot for not completing theirs.

JCC

[trotter]

I think this is actually a more interesting campaign than the 'Patrol ____ Grid for 24 hours' campaign style.

The only thing I would change (and would be a big addition, the biggest) is to make the war truly dynamic. I'd love to have all tonnage sunk be accumulated, and each month go towards speeding up events that were favorable to the Germans, or delaying events unfavorable to the Germans.

All of the 'ship specific' (sink a carrier, etc) objectives would not be mandatory, but would count significantly more towards the progress of the war than tonnage alone.

Ultimately the "war" inside the campaign might just turn out slightly differently if you are extremely successful. Nothing outside the scope of what difference one single uboat captain could have expected to make, but little changes in the timing of historical events that compound over the course of the campaign.

[Capt_Sluggo]

Nope, it's not for everyone. You have to like the long hunt. For me, that's the real fun.

I got lazy and stayed on the surface charging batteries for several hours straight, not bothering to dive and check hydrophone. During a nasty storm, high seas, wind, rain, low visibility and a long long way from any land. I had just clicked off time compression and gone topside when a task force came charging in at 20+ knots and almost ran me down. Scared me but good! A screen shot would have been fantastic but there was no time to even think.

Rare moments like that are enough to keep me playing.

[Placoderm]

You are aware that you don't have to complete your objectives, aren't you? You can do what you want, go where you want and sink what you want and the campaign will roll along regardless. It will just play out differently than it would if you completed some, or all, of your objectives.

You cannot hope to win a war without completing the objectives laid out by HQ because you are not in posession of all of the information that they are. However, sucessful captains were rarely shot for not completing theirs.

JCC

Actually, John, I did not know that. I was under the impression that I needed to fulfill those scripted tasks in order to progress in the campaign, or at least earn the renown to upgrade my sub and crew.

I do appreciate your clearing that up for me. Unfortunately, I do not recall any of the being coverd in the horribly short manual, so I thank you.:salute:



Of course, now I have to sit here and realize that I let a perfectly gorgeous convoy get away...or more specifically, I ran away from it to avoid detection. :damn::damn:


:wah:

[Nisgeis]

Did you actually read his post?

Here, let me help you with the most pertinent part: ..."Tried everything to spice it up a bit (mods, 100% realism, attacking Scapa on surface etc),..."


Yes, I did read the actually read his post. I'm just trying to help the guy out, so please don't be so negative about it, like I did something bad.

If he has tried all of the mods and still finds that attacking in Scapa Flow on the surface has not been 'spiced up' then, either, he hasn't tried all the mods or he hasn't installed all the mods properly. So, I was trying to be helpful.

If I were to read and take his post as literal then:

So how you guys manage to have fun with this game? Share some tips, anything that can spice up a bit this game. Wouldn't make any sense would it? I mean, if he has literally tried everything, then what could we possibly suggest, other than to try something again. So, I took it that he hadn't really tried everything, or every mod and was trying to point him in the right direction, but I suppose a thread like this couldn't last five minutes without some negative outpouring at some point.

I see you have managed to respond to a thread asking 'how do I make this game more exciting' with a post pointing out all the things in the game that you personally don't like, but not one single positive suggestion. This forums isn't just about what you don't like about the game, it's about trying to help others out as well, if you can.

[Placoderm]

Ok now I understand what the OP was getting at. Wasn't sure if he found SH5 boring or submarine warfare in general. So it is the scripted nature of SH5 that is the problem.


Actually, after reading his later post, it is I who may have been mistaken. I was under the impression that he was wanting a more historical challenge...but his later post about a more 'exciting' mission that I referred to in my later post made it pretty clear that it was the lack of scripted excitement and not the lack of historical accuracy that he was wanting.

In any case, I am so confused now that I am best to just slink off into the darkness and admit my own failure at comprehension, right or wrong or somewhere in-between.


:oops:

[IanC]

In any case, I am so confused now that I am best to just slink off into the darkness and admit my own failure at comprehension, right or wrong or somewhere in-between.
:oops:

:lol: it's all good. The whole thread is a little confusing, including the title.

[Placoderm]

Yes, I did read the actually read his post. I'm just trying to help the guy out, so please don't be so negative about it, like I did something bad.

If he has tried all of the mods and still finds that attacking in Scapa Flow on the surface has not been 'spiced up' then, either, he hasn't tried all the mods or he hasn't installed all the mods properly. So, I was trying to be helpful.

If I were to read and take his post as literal then:

Wouldn't make any sense would it? I mean, if he has literally tried everything, then what could we possibly suggest, other than to try something again. So, I took it that he hadn't really tried everything, or every mod and was trying to point him in the right direction, but I suppose a thread like this couldn't last five minutes without some negative outpouring at some point.

I see you have managed to respond to a thread asking 'how do I make this game more exciting' with a post pointing out all the things in the game that you personally don't like, but not one single positive suggestion. This forums isn't just about what you don't like about the game, it's about trying to help others out as well, if you can.


A stated above, I do concede that I, too, misread his post Nisgeis, in that I had assumed that he was looking for a more realistic combat experience. Having myself just passed up that juicy convoy late last night due to it being in the 'wrong place'...I was reading my own interpretation into his words, and for that I apologize.

On the other hand, I did not point out "all the things in the game that I personally don't like", but simply the one that I thought he was referring to. Again, that was my mistake in interpreting his original posts' 5th sentence as being frustrated with the scripting. Obviously, I was wrong in that belief.

Where we differ is in your feeling that all that I post is negativity when you say "This forums isn't just about what you don't like about the game, it's about trying to help others out as well, if you can". Apparently unknown to you, I have posted help whenever I can both recently as well as in years past with SH3&4, and have supported the genre in many ways that you do not know, although in it's current state I cannot help but also highlight the failings when I feel it is relevant to the conversation and the future of the series. Sometimes I might be right, and sometimes I will be dead wrong...but that does not preclude me from participation. The attitude that it does shall do more damage to this forum than any remarks about SH5's numerous failings ever will.



:cool:

[Nordmann]

Pssst! You're playing the wrong game. (http://xbox.joystiq.com/2010/03/31/submerge-yourself-into-naval-assault-the-killing-tide/)

Heh, that about sums it up Neal.

[Zedi]

Actually Placoderm had right. It's exactly I was talking about. Only difference is that I was talking not only by how boring is the campaign, but everything in the game, including the historical mission and MP. Maybe if the AI would be smarter, maybe if the crew would actually count on the ship management things would be different.

Speaking about the campaigns I also had to pass on many convoys only because I was short on amo and the mission objective was asking me to sink a certain type of ship. For example in the first campaign hunting the damn carrier in Atlantic I had to pass at least 3 huge convoys because I had only 5 torpedoes left. How painful can be this sight for a real sub captain:
- bdu, I have a large convoy on sight, can I get them?
- No, we dont have any interest in convoys in this war, we need only one carrier sunk. And make sure that carrier is right in the middle of Atlantic or you will be punished.

Later on, operation weserubung was my nightmare. Sunk tons of battleships in Scapa right before the invasion, still that was not count for the main mission. Had to search the damn battleship for more than 3 day to find it and be able to complete the mission and the campaign.

Another example, the Western approaches campaign. Tried to do the Winston's Special mission, so I set up my patrols near Freetown where those troop carriers should arrive. I engaged 3 convoys and also a group of 3 Dido's with no result on mission. Then I got bored of waiting so I vent up in north Atlantic to try the British Supplies mission. Guess what.. no convoys for days, all reports of convoys was out of the mission area.

So yes, this is the boring part I was talking about, the mission objectives. Go out and try to find the needle in the hay, nothing more or less. So that's why I was thinking about some other kind of missions, more dynamic and fun. Instead of going out in the middle of nowhere and try to find the only target that can count for the mission and pass everything else, how about set up some dynamic mission areas where anything can happen.

[robbo180265]

A stated above, I do concede that I, too, misread his post Nisgeis, in that I had assumed that he was looking for a more realistic combat experience. Having myself just passed up that juicy convoy late last night due to it being in the 'wrong place'...I was reading my own interpretation into his words, and for that I apologize.

On the other hand, I did not point out "all the things in the game that I personally don't like", but simply the one that I thought he was referring to. Again, that was my mistake in interpreting his original posts' 5th sentence as being frustrated with the scripting. Obviously, I was wrong in that belief.

Where we differ is in your feeling that all that I post is negativity when you say "This forums isn't just about what you don't like about the game, it's about trying to help others out as well, if you can". Apparently unknown to you, I have posted help whenever I can both recently as well as in years past with SH3&4, and have supported the genre in many ways that you do not know, although in it's current state I cannot help but also highlight the failings when I feel it is relevant to the conversation and the future of the series. Sometimes I might be right, and sometimes I will be dead wrong...but that does not preclude me from participation. The attitude that it does shall do more damage to this forum than any remarks about SH5's numerous failings ever will.



:cool:

I wouldn't read too much into it matey - with all the drama lately we're all a little jumpy. :03:

[robbo180265]

Actually Placoderm had right. It's exactly I was talking about. Only difference is that I was talking not only by how boring is the campaign, but everything in the game, including the historical mission and MP. Maybe if the AI would be smarter, maybe if the crew would actually count on the ship management things would be different.

Speaking about the campaigns I also had to pass on many convoys only because I was short on amo and the mission objective was asking me to sink a certain type of ship. For example in the first campaign hunting the damn carrier in Atlantic I had to pass at least 3 huge convoys because I had only 5 torpedoes left. How painful can be this sight for a real sub captain:
- bdu, I have a large convoy on sight, can I get them?
- No, we dont have any interest in convoys in this war, we need only one carrier sunk. And make sure that carrier is right in the middle of Atlantic or you will be punished.

Later on, operation weserubung was my nightmare. Sunk tons of battleships in Scapa right before the invasion, still that was not count for the main mission. Had to search the damn battleship for more than 3 day to find it and be able to complete the mission and the campaign.

Another example, the Western approaches campaign. Tried to do the Winston's Special mission, so I set up my patrols near Freetown where those troop carriers should arrive. I engaged 3 convoys and also a group of 3 Dido's with no result on mission. Then I got bored of waiting so I vent up in north Atlantic to try the British Supplies mission. Guess what.. no convoys for days, all reports of convoys was out of the mission area.

So yes, this is the boring part I was talking about, the mission objectives. Go out and try to find the needle in the hay, nothing more or less. So that's why I was thinking about some other kind of missions, more dynamic and fun. Instead of going out in the middle of nowhere and try to find the only target that can count for the mission and pass everything else, how about set up some dynamic mission areas where anything can happen.

I do see your point - trouble is the stuff you are finding boring, is the stuff I love.

You made some good suggestions, but to be honest - I wouldn't buy that game , really wouldn't appeal to me. I love the thrill of stalking a convoy.

[Nisgeis]

On the other hand, I did not point out "all the things in the game that I personally don't like", but simply the one that I thought he was referring to.

I was referring to this thread only, but yes I wasn't clear. I don't mean that all that you post is negative. There are a lot of threads being hijacked that should be on one topic, but somehow manage to get dragged off into a kick SH5 session.

I wouldn't read too much into it matey - with all the drama lately we're all a little jumpy. :03:

Oh yes.


Actually Placoderm had right. It's exactly I was talking about. Only difference is that I was talking not only by how boring is the campaign, but everything in the game, including the historical mission and MP. Maybe if the AI would be smarter, maybe if the crew would actually count on the ship management things would be different.

What does 'if the crew would actually count on the ship management' mean? If you were complaing about everything in the game, there's probably not much hope of a salvage of it for you, even with a patch and mods.

But, as you're complaining about the AI, but have you tried any of the AI mods? I know you said you had tried 'everything', but if you have tried one of the AI mods, then you should have noticed a difference.

[Westbroek]

I feel that the element of luck involved when out on patrol is exactly what the game needed. It took me a while to come around to it though.
I take it upon myself to act exactly as would a real captain. If I find a juicy convoy, I'll make ships sink regardless of my "wouldn't it be great" BDU wishful thinking. Now if I find a convoy escorted by a capital ship, and BDU has asked me to do what I can to sink a few of those bad boys, then that's priority number one.
I figure this way, I'll complete the objectives that I can and progress through my career realistically. I will be happy leaving it to chance, as it really was.
The real benefit to this is that it will actually lend replayability to a campaign mode that I once feared would lack it completely.

[Placoderm]

I was referring to this thread only, but yes I wasn't clear. I don't mean that all that you post is negative. There are a lot of threads being hijacked that should be on one topic, but somehow manage to get dragged off into a kick SH5 session.

Fair enough, and I am sorry to admit that a disproportionate number of my recent posts have been...um...critical...but hopefully in a constructive way. :D


I think a group hug is in order! :o


But, as you're complaining about the AI, but have you tried any of the AI mods? I know you said you had tried 'everything', but if you have tried one of the AI mods, then you should have noticed a difference.

You know, I just had an epiphany that perhaps Magnum did try that, but did not start the mod while in port. I did that initially, and was rather unimpressed with the changes (which, in retrospect, there were none)...until I disabled and then re-enabled my mods the next time I was in port. Graphics-only mods can be installed anywhere, but if I am correct anything that changes the game parameters must be installed only when in port.

It still ain't perfect, but at least Scapa Flow on the surface would be a tad more challenging...

[Bilge_Rat]

I wouldn't read too much into it matey - with all the drama lately we're all a little jumpy. :03:


Oh yes.


you think?

this is what I felt like yesterday...

:gulp::lost::help:

[Placoderm]

Actually Placoderm had right. It's exactly I was talking about. Only difference is that I was talking not only by how boring is the campaign, but everything in the game, including the historical mission and MP. Maybe if the AI would be smarter, maybe if the crew would actually count on the ship management things would be different.

Speaking about the campaigns I also had to pass on many convoys only because I was short on amo and the mission objective was asking me to sink a certain type of ship. For example in the first campaign hunting the damn carrier in Atlantic I had to pass at least 3 huge convoys because I had only 5 torpedoes left. How painful can be this sight for a real sub captain:
- bdu, I have a large convoy on sight, can I get them?
- No, we dont have any interest in convoys in this war, we need only one carrier sunk. And make sure that carrier is right in the middle of Atlantic or you will be punished.

Later on, operation weserubung was my nightmare. Sunk tons of battleships in Scapa right before the invasion, still that was not count for the main mission. Had to search the damn battleship for more than 3 day to find it and be able to complete the mission and the campaign.

Another example, the Western approaches campaign. Tried to do the Winston's Special mission, so I set up my patrols near Freetown where those troop carriers should arrive. I engaged 3 convoys and also a group of 3 Dido's with no result on mission. Then I got bored of waiting so I vent up in north Atlantic to try the British Supplies mission. Guess what.. no convoys for days, all reports of convoys was out of the mission area.

So yes, this is the boring part I was talking about, the mission objectives. Go out and try to find the needle in the hay, nothing more or less. So that's why I was thinking about some other kind of missions, more dynamic and fun. Instead of going out in the middle of nowhere and try to find the only target that can count for the mission and pass everything else, how about set up some dynamic mission areas where anything can happen.


Well, at least I wasn't completely nuts in reading your first post. It is highly frustrating to me to have to save my eels for that one 'special target' whilst passing up perfectly good convoys...but with time and a few patches hopefully that will be fixed.

Ideally, what we really need is to have more user-made missions and campaigns...but that will take a while. I am trying to learn the mission editor, and hopefully someday Neal will have a dedicated Missions forum (unless there already is one that I haven't found yet) so that we can enjoy some more historically accurate mission designs. It took a while before RSRD (the 'Run Silent, Run Deep' campaign) was created for SH4, and that has literally transformed the game for me (although I still suck...at least I suck in a historical way).

I still long for a truly dynamic world and more historical objectives that are in line with what a U-boat commander might face...but that is probably still months in the future, at best.

The problem with scripting is that everything relies on triggers, and if you miss that one most important trigger, then nothing works as expected. To design a mission that continues to offer challenge even if you miss a critical trigger can be very hard to build...but it is possible (primarily by creating dozens of alternate triggers and/or a global trigger of sorts). I used to design campaigns for ARMA and the original OFP, so perhaps some of that will come in handy...but again, that will take time that I may not have right now...but someone might, given time.

In any case, there is some hope since we have the mission editor to play with. For that, I am very thankful!


:salute:

[Zedi]

Placoderm, is not possible to write a mission based on random events? Give a start objective in a narrow area and fill it with random events, then let the AI build the mission finale.

For example, the start objective is to sink 1 merchant in a 100km radius. Then fill this area with random events.. passing convoys, planes, carriers and even german U-boats who will engage your target if you moving slow. So these possible events will trigger new objectives. If a carrier will get into the battle area, the new objective would be to forgot the merchant and sink the carrier and so on.

Yeah I know, the main problem here is the retard AI. But if the AI would be smart enough, actually the AI could build up a very dynamic mission and even campaign. Is this possible?

[HKLE]

How about SH3 with GWX ?

[JScones]

If you're not enjoying the missions, completely ignore them. Just play it how you'd normally play SH3, go out and sink tonnage.
Can one go specifically to, say, grid "AM52", or "BF17", or would one just randomly roam the seas?

I must admit I quite like the SH3 approach. Sure, each patrol is the same "goto X, patrol for 24 hours, then, erm, yeah, um, go home at some time or BE MORE AGGRESSIVE", but IMHO I think that's waaaay more realistic than the missions that I've read people having to tackle here.

Kinda reminds me a little bit of SH2 - I *still* have the first mission burned into my brain - sink the three Polish Destroyers before they flee to England. AAARRRGGGHHH!!!!

Anyway, I'm sure in two patch's time there'll be an array of "mission packs" developed, some to suit the "instant gratification" crowd and some to suit the "slow stalkers".

Same here. It's my major gripe with the game. Hopefully in time this will be rectified By the Modders or some form of DLC?
X1 SOFTWARE :rock::rock::rock::rock:

[Nisgeis]

Yeah I know, the main problem here is the retard AI. But if the AI would be smart enough, actually the AI could build up a very dynamic mission and even campaign. Is this possible?

You know, it's really hard to help someone who won't give any feedback, or respond... Have you tried any of the AI mods?

Can one go specifically to, say, grid "AM52", or "BF17", or would one just randomly roam the seas?

In SH5, you get two missions, a campaign mission and then a patrol mission. The patrol mission will tell you to go to a certain place and patrol round there. It's not a KM grid reference, just an icon which you steam to. The mission patrol area will be inside the much larger area where your campaign mission is, so you are in effect being sent to patrol in certain locations, according to the current priorities of BDU. Sure, you can sink a few ships on the way, but it won't count towards the campaign goal if it's not within the right area.

When boats were ordered to the US coast for Operation 'Roll of Drums' or 'Drumbeat', then the boats were orderd to not attack anything on the way, unless it was 10,000 tons or greater, as the aim was to detroy shipping around the US coast. It seems reasonable to have these campaign goals not count shipping sunk in other areas. If shipping is sunk off the coast of England, that shouldn't really count towards operation 'Drumbeat'. If you don't sink anything, after a few days you'll be ordered to a new patrol area. You can if you like completely ignore your orders and go harbour raiding, or off to see New York or Canada, but it won't help with BDU's goals.

[mcarlsonus]

Can one go specifically to, say, grid "AM52", or "BF17", or would one just randomly roam the seas?

No grids any more. One goes to an icon representing what I interpret to be the center of a patrol area. Using the icon as a center point, I draw a 150-200 km (radius) circle around it. I then wander about inside the circle until I'm thoroughly sick of it, or I get a message from BdU indicating my patrol area's changed. Since success in the Campaigns is based on ones sinking of craft INSIDE a patrol area of uncertain size, I've no idea if 150-200 is too large or too small. Campaign success is optional, however, and I no longer even bother trying to accomplish the outrageous requirements for said, "success!"

I must admit I quite like the SH3 approach. Sure, each patrol is the same "goto X, patrol for 24 hours, then, erm, yeah, um, go home at some time or BE MORE AGGRESSIVE", but IMHO I think that's w aaaay more realistic than the missions that I've read people having to tackle here.

We still get the, "Be More Aggressive, you incompetent reprobate!" messages from the BdU!

[Zedi]

You know, it's really hard to help someone who won't give any feedback, or respond... Have you tried any of the AI mods?

...
Sorry, I forgot to answer this. Yes, right now I use Haramirs Escorts Self Awareness Mod 1.1. I also used other Ai mods, but I found this one to be the best. Problem with all mods is that escorts stop the hunt after I dive under 30 or 50m. They just loose contact on me after that. But to be honest, is not that bothers me, I'm hungry for some real hard battles, not for playin cat and mouse for days as we had in SH3.

Anyway, I must confess that I'm suprised to see how many people like to play on casual mode. Take the shiny boat out to sea then wait days, month, years for a convoy to pass. Sink all, refit and get back to sink the same ships again and again.

Now, this is ain't me. I want Donitz to give me the hardest missions as he did with Prien. I want to bring terror and raging hell in the enemy ports, I want Kriegsmarine to be proud of me and my crew, I want my sub to be a real killer boat. I supose there is already enough captain here who is happy just to hunt down slow convoys, no matter how much time it takes, so I want the hardcore and almost impossible missions. And I want rewards for it.. medals, chiks and a lot of drinks :D

I saw somebody said that I'm dreaming about some hollywood type game and SH is more about being slow. Well, I disagree. I skiped SH4 only because was about the american side. And usually in any game where you play on the american side, the enemy is completly retarded and you will be always the hero who all alone can kill a whole division of germans, japs or whoever gets in you way.

SH3 was perfect as there the enemy was strong, smart and every convoy attack was a real challenge. So I'm not at all the hollywood type who just wanna blow up stuff, I'm thirsty for battle and really hard challenges. I just can't be arsed to stay for months in the middle of the ocean and wait for a convoy to pass. I'm sad that not many feel the same way.

[Sailor Steve]

But to be honest, is not that bothers me, I'm hungry for some real hard battles, not for playin cat and mouse for days as we had in SH3.
But that's what they had in real life.

Anyway, I must confess that I'm suprised to see how many people like to play on casual mode. Take the shiny boat out to sea then wait days, month, years for a convoy to pass. Sink all, refit and get back to sink the same ships again and again.
That's not casual, that's realistic. Casual is sinking tons of ships and fighting every day.

Now, this is ain't me. I want Donitz to give me the hardest missions as he did with Prien. I want to bring terror and raging hell in the enemy ports,
That was done exactly once. Well, twice if you count the guy who hit a small harbor in the Caribbean.

I saw somebody said that I'm dreaming about some hollywood type game and SH is more about being slow. Well, I disagree. I skiped SH4 only because was about the american side. And usually in any game where you play on the american side, the enemy is completly retarded and you will be always the hero who all alone can kill a whole division of germans, japs or whoever gets in you way.
SH4 is not like that, at least not with the supermods. And the Americans did a lot of harbor raids. Not Tokyo, like the stock game, but smaller ports all over the China coast.

SH3 was perfect as there the enemy was strong, smart and every convoy attack was a real challenge. So I'm not at all the hollywood type who just wanna blow up stuff, I'm thirsty for battle and really hard challenges.
But that is the Hollywood type.

I just can't be arsed to stay for months in the middle of the ocean and wait for a convoy to pass. I'm sad that not many feel the same way.
We don't feel the same way because we're in it for the realism.

[Zedi]

Steve, from my reading I know that the primary objectives of the escorts was to protect the convoy, not to hunt to death the u-boats. This is wrong in any way you want, let the escorts be focused on 1 target and let the convoy unprotected is just a bad call and whoever decided that should be punished.

About the realism.. sim or not, hope you guys still realize that SH is still a game. Standing in front of a monitor and wearing a captain uniform will not make you to return in time and be a u-boat commander. The virtual Bdu don't really care if you sink a whole convoy, actually he care only is you accomplish some simple scripted missions.

So that's why these missions should be something exciting where skill is everything. These missions should be so damn hard that even sink a ship in a convoy should be a great achievement.

Regarding the true stuff, Prien had great balls. So why we cannot have his balls in a game. Worst thing to happen is to be forced to reload the game.

[Sailor Steve]

Oh, I fully agree that you should be able to play the way you want to. Me, I've had four decades of trying to beat guys who were better than me, or beat the game in general. I'm not really a gamer, just a history buff who wants to recreate the feeling of being there for myself.

I was really just sermonizing on your "I'm sad that not many feel the same way" comment. We all want something different from a sim like this. That's what makes it so hard for everybody from the designers to the modders to the players.

[Nisgeis]

Problem with all mods is that escorts stop the hunt after I dive under 30 or 50m. They just loose contact on me after that.

I think it's safe to say that you haven't tried all the mods, if that is your impression. There are mods that stop that happening.

Steve, from my reading I know that the primary objectives of the escorts was to protect the convoy, not to hunt to death the u-boats. This is wrong in any way you want, let the escorts be focused on 1 target and let the convoy unprotected is just a bad call and whoever decided that should be punished.

When the convoy had very limitted numbers of escorts, they were more interested in keeping the U-Boat down than trying to prosecute an attack and leaving the convoy un-escorted for too long. When they had the escorts to spare, they very much did try to kill them. No one was punished for destroying a U-Boat.

About the realism.. sim or not, hope you guys still realize that SH is still a game. Standing in front of a monitor and wearing a captain uniform will not make you to return in time and be a u-boat commander. The virtual Bdu don't really care if you sink a whole convoy, actually he care only is you accomplish some simple scripted missions.

U-Boats were spread out in a string along the convoy routes to pick up convoys. They were also deployed to support operations in other areas, so the real BDU did indeed have 'scripted missions' and they really did care about them. I'm fairly sure that if a captain disobeyed orders and didn't go where he was told, then he'd find himself at the very least, without a command as soon as he got in.

And really, that comment about wearing a uniform - seriously are you trolling now?

So that's why these missions should be something exciting where skill is everything. These missions should be so damn hard that even sink a ship in a convoy should be a great achievement.

Regarding the true stuff, Prien had great balls. So why we cannot have his balls in a game. Worst thing to happen is to be forced to reload the game.

If Prien got killed, he was dead. If you get killed, you can as you say reload the game. Where are the 'balls' involved in that, if there is no risk, there can be no courage. That's why you can't have it in a game. You could always play the game until you do die, then uninstall it and never play it again. Would that add to the drama? :-)

[mcarlsonus]

this thread...heading south...with great rapidity...

[Nisgeis]

I think it started there.

[mcarlsonus]

UND...mit Hingabe und Überflusses soils der Thread selbst!

Would that be German for, "AND...with dedication and exuberance, the thread soils itself!" ??

[robbo180265]

UND...mit Hingabe und Überflusses soils der Thread selbst!



Either way it would make a great forum sig:rotfl2:

[bigboywooly]

Can one go specifically to, say, grid "AM52", or "BF17", or would one just randomly roam the seas?

I must admit I quite like the SH3 approach. Sure, each patrol is the same "goto X, patrol for 24 hours, then, erm, yeah, um, go home at some time or BE MORE AGGRESSIVE", but IMHO I think that's waaaay more realistic than the missions that I've read people having to tackle here.

Apart from the lack of a grid you can do just that
BUT you lose the "dymanic " campaign
Is only dynamic IF you follow the missions and sink the ships\tonnage you are supposed to :doh:


Kinda reminds me a little bit of SH2 - I *still* have the first mission burned into my brain - sink the three Polish Destroyers before they flee to England. AAARRRGGGHHH!!!!

Pretty much sums up the SH5 missions
Sink 2 battleships in convoys
Sink 10 merchants\5 tankers
etc

Anyway, I'm sure in two patch's time there'll be an array of "mission packs" developed, some to suit the "instant gratification" crowd and some to suit the "slow stalkers".


Of that I have no doubt

[coronas]

The seventh patrol of U96:

http://www.u-historia.com/uhistoria/historia/articulos/7a-u96/7a-u96.htm

[THE_MASK]

Wait until the patches are out . Hopefully some modders will get together and complately rewrite the campaign .

[TwistedAdonis]

Prien had great balls. So why we cannot have his balls in a game?

That's one graphical improvement we don't need I think.

:arrgh!:

[John Channing]

OK... that was funny.

Take a gold star out of petty cash.

JCC

[McHibbins]

...... Hopefully some modders will get together and complately rewrite the campaign .

If this happens, I´ll be back for SH5 again

[Placoderm]

That's one graphical improvement we don't need I think.

:arrgh!:

:o.....


:har::har: