Looking for Danger in the Pacific...

[Keelbuster]

Hey guys,

I'm on patrol 9 right now, TMO + RSRD - August '43. I'm really in need of a good depth charging. Out of 9 patrols, I've encountered escorts (either for a TF or in a small convoy) maybe 3 or 4 times max. Every other sinking I've made has been a lone merchant. It feels too easy and safe. I get a radar contact, loudly approach, get perfect TDC data, kill the poor sap, and then sail off happily on the surface. Every plane that shows up I pick up on SD radar with plenty of time to dive, so there's absolutely no danger from air attack. Occasionally I get a convoy report over FLASH, but it's usually too far away. Once I intercepted on convoy and found it had two escorts, both minesweepers. I sunk one with a cutie and the other one lost me when I dove to 400 ft. All in all it was a pretty safe situation for me.

I'm used to the Atlantic theatre where almost every kill comes at a price - usually an hour of nailbiting and tooth rattling depth charges. Does IJN use the convoy system? Is there any chance of me getting a good depth-charging this career? Does it get more dangerous later in the war?

[BillBam]

This is the way it was in the early war, as time progresses the Japs formed more convoys with escorts. Don't forget that in the Atlantic they were fighting U-Boats for years and learned how to protect their ships.

I assume that early in the war the Japs assumed their freighters were safe near home waters, this definitely was not the case in the long Atlantic voyage of Allied convoys.

Also the Allied detection equipment was much more advanced than the Japs, especially early on.

[Steiger]

Not that I can tell. I've been on 11 patrols and have yet to be honestly challenged by any escorts. I've taken more damage from running gun battles with armed merchants than I have from depth charges. Japanese destroyers simply don't have the hardware to dish out any serious damage. I once attacked a task force escorted by 4 destroyers, and was able to shake them after just 2 attack runs. I hear that you can attack Bungo Pete in the Bungo Straights and that he kills people pretty consistently.

[Ducimus]

Try starting in 1943, with just TMO and see if that makes any difference. I think you may run into more convoys. They'll range anywhere between 3 and 12 or 15 ships, with escorts ranging as few as two, to as many as 5, most of them set at veteran skill level. The convoys will be zig zagging at regular intervals, so you may find yourself tracking them a bit longer.

edit:
I have to admit, this post, coming from you keelbuster, kinda hurts, because making the game more challenging has been one of my goals in TMO. Your one of those fellows' whose been around awhile, we used to kid around with each other during our SH3 days, so your opinion has some weight with me. So i'm sitting here wondering if i have failed, or perhaps, like me you've been playing these games for so long, and know the quirks of the AI so well, that you can tap dance your way into in most situations regardless of theater or conditions.

In any event try TMO just by itself and see if that makes any difference for you. As an aside, i don't know if you adjusted the hydrophone settings like i posted to in the TMO thread, but in working on version 2.0, ive come up with a completely different set of hydrophone settings. The one i posted earlier will make escorts absolutely deaf.

[Immacolata]

edit:
I have to admit, this post, coming from you keelbuster, kinda hurts, because making the game more challenging has been one of my goals in TMO. Your one of those fellows' whose been around awhile, we used to kid around with each other during our SH3 days, so your opinion has some weight with me. So i'm sitting here wondering if i have failed, or perhaps, like me you've been playing these games for so long, and know the quirks of the AI so well, that you can tap dance your way into in most situations regardless of theater or conditions.

Hm, I don't think my opinion carries much weight compared to Keelbusters, but I just went off RSDC and went plain TMO 1.9 - and I am having more fun with it and will stay pure TMO 1.9. That coun'ts for some too I hope :)

[Ducimus]

Sure it does. :salute:

[Keelbuster]

Try starting in 1943, with just TMO and see if that makes any difference. I think you may run into more convoys. They'll range anywhere between 3 and 12 or 15 ships, with escorts ranging as few as two, to as many as 5, most of them set at veteran skill level. The convoys will be zig zagging at regular intervals, so you may find yourself tracking them a bit longer.

edit:
I have to admit, this post, coming from you keelbuster, kinda hurts, because making the game more challenging has been one of my goals in TMO. Your one of those fellows' whose been around awhile, we used to kid around with each other during our SH3 days, so your opinion has some weight with me. So i'm sitting here wondering if i have failed, or perhaps, like me you've been playing these games for so long, and know the quirks of the AI so well, that you can tap dance your way into in most situations regardless of theater or conditions.

In any event try TMO just by itself and see if that makes any difference for you. As an aside, i don't know if you adjusted the hydrophone settings like i posted to in the TMO thread, but in working on version 2.0, ive come up with a completely different set of hydrophone settings. The one i posted earlier will make escorts absolutely deaf.

Ducimus, let's not have any talk about failure here. I'm gettin' all teary-eyed. First off, I'm _loving_ this game. I played it immediately when it came out - stock - on my old box, and the twisted interface, the bugs, etc, and my crappy hardware made it a loser for me. Now that I have the hardware, I'm amazed at what a clean, functional game that you and the other modders have produced. You guys saved the day, and in particular, TMO has saved my day. As a game, this feels a ton better than SH3. I'm really appreciating the graphics, I love the new area of operations with all the shallow water etc, and the whole thing feels polished. I have no illusions about the massive commitment that you and the other modders have made to this game, and I can really feel as I play. I really didn't mean to sound like I was criticizing your work, TMO, etc. I felt bad right after I posted this message because I remember a post i put up a couple weeks ago on the TMO mod thread in the workshop forum saying the escorts were too sensitive. Here I am two weeks later singing a slightly different tune:oops:

What I might be reacting to, or becoming acclimated to, is the new style of boats. It might come down to differences in the challenges (historically) of being a US submariner vs. a Kriegsmariner. I'm amazed at what a different vibe it is being in a fleet boat. They're huge, powerful, heavily armed, basically loud (transmitting radar constantly), and they go in shooting. The fleet boat TDC seems to be set up for single merchant attacks - with the position keeper etc; it seems hard to orchestrate a multiple ship attack quickly. In contrast, the german boats were smaller, had a smaller armament, made less noise, could dive deeper, etc., and they're TDC was beautifully set up for multiple target attacks with the peri locked to the TDC, adjusting AoB etc. They also had the pattern running torps allowing for extreme range attacks.

So, I think it might be a question of vibe, style, attitude. I just kinda miss the sinister factor of lurking into a convoy and making massive kills on T3s etc, then slinking away for hours, cursing and sweating. Being the underdog - the bad guy. I like feeling like I did the big dirty and now I've gotta pay.

As for the japanese ASW, back when i was in my Porpoise class with the terribly shallow test depth, I had trouble getting under the japanese sonar, and had to do the old fashion SH3 hydrophone - wait till they're charging and then do a turn and bolt, go silent, etc. Eventually I was able to strip them off me. That reminded me of the old days; god they were hell. Now that I have a Balao, it seems that I can easily get under they're sonar cone, and weirdly I kinda miss the hell. I have yet to be afraid in SH4.

As for the detection radius thing I was complaining about earlier, I think the issue I had is that the escorts became 'tipped off' to soon. I grant that once an escort is suspicious, you've basically blown it and he should be a pain to get rid of. But if all's quiet and they're sailing nicely along, and I'm not doing much, giving them lots of space, and being sneaky, they should be surprised when they see steam bubbles. I'm interested to see how TMO 2.0 runs in that respect.

But that's all neither here nor there if all I'm encountering are single un-escorted merchants. I need to find the convoys. I'll take your advice and try TMO clean after this career is done. This is my first career; i'm still just trying to learn the ins-and-outs of the fleet boat TDC. Next career will definitely be a DiD affair, no saves/loads due to misses, and potentially no external cam.

As for convoy detection, I've seen _very_ few merchants contact reports plotted directly on the map (but not none, just one every once and a while). I've never seen a convoy or TF plotted on the map. I get the FLASH reports that talk about convoy whereabouts, and I've been able to use these effectively; I really like this functionality. My question is: are the FLASH reports supposed to replace the SH3-style radio report plot on the map (e.g., convoy, slow, NNE)? Or are map plots for convoy/TFs just really really rare?

[Ducimus]

I'm not sure how the Flash reports work in RSRD. Are you getting a popup message? If so its probably something scripted.

Radio reports in general, work just like SH3.

As to the US TDC, you an work it like a german one. I've never had time to learn the method, but i think its called the "Dick O'kane" method. He doesn't use the Position Keeper. Rockin Robbins has posted a tutorial on it somewhere. Try checking this thread:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=146795

As to making the game more challenging, has been a driving factor behind ALOT of the things ive done. The stock game sucks. No denything that, and as a student of both the PTO and ATO, i cannot in good concious make the JP ASW as good as the allies. My goal is harder, but just short of what i call, "atlantic hard". It has to be plausible. So what i'll typically do is find some excuse to increase the difficulty.

Take planes for instance. With SD radar, you may as well remove them from the game. What are the chances of being caught on the surface? Then, while putsing around, discovered how to make planes detect submerged objects. Well, thats great, it makes them a threat again, but how am i going to put that in the game and be in context ? Ah Hah! pacific waters were clearer, there's my way to bring this in!

Or another one of my favorites. The type C and D escorts. They had a crapload of throwers, i decided to leave a couple extra throwers on. (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1202436#post1202436) In theme, its historically accurate, in specifics, i took some minor artistic license, by a fudge factor of 2 y guns. The excuse i used here is, "nobody will notice a couple extra Y guns during play, they'll be too busy crapping their pants". It wasn't specifics i was looking for anyway, it was the end result while still being plausible to the theater.

One thing that throws a monkey wrench is thermal layers. I love them as a player, but as a modder i hate 'em. It's very hard to adjust sensors without lowering the effectiveness of the layer. Something i tried to avoid. However in version 2.0, the effectiveness of thermoclines is indeed reduced for AI passive. Doing so has allowed me to obtain a more sane setting both above and below the layer.

[Ian_L]

Just to add my 2 cents here, as a guy who doesn't play alot and certainly doesn't really find the game too easy...

...because I don't play alot (once or twice a week, 3-4 hours each), I'm usually quite conservative in my tactics (i.e. wuss). However, don't you guys feel that, being in a real boat the captains would certainly have had less encounters with convoys and escorts than most of the hardcore simmers get in one week of play, and therefore would certainly be more of a wuss and also be less familiar with the enemy's tactics?

In other words, it's not really the game that needs to be harder, but if a real captain had had as much practice as you guys, they too would find it easy?

Ian

[Keelbuster]

Just to add my 2 cents here, as a guy who doesn't play alot and certainly doesn't really find the game too easy...

...because I don't play alot (once or twice a week, 3-4 hours each), I'm usually quite conservative in my tactics (i.e. wuss). However, don't you guys feel that, being in a real boat the captains would certainly have had less encounters with convoys and escorts than most of the hardcore simmers get in one week of play, and therefore would certainly be more of a wuss and also be less familiar with the enemy's tactics?

In other words, it's not really the game that needs to be harder, but if a real captain had had as much practice as you guys, they too would find it easy?

Ian

Hey,

not sure if you played SH3, but in SH3 with GWX, etc...modded to hell, it was dangerous. In the late war (e.g., > '42), every attack was a risk.

There are three components to a submarine attack (as I see it).

1) there is the identification of, and accumulation of knowledge about, the target - that includes what it is, where it is, and where it is going and how fast.

2) getting into position and attacking. Getting into position can be hard, but if you're lucky (e.g., he's coming across your bow) then it is not a big deal. The attack is also somewhat given, because if you know the information from 1), it is a mathematical thing - no big deal. These first two parts sum to the question: 'how do i kill my enemy'.

3) Getting away. This is (potentially) the more important aspect of an attack. In the Atlantic, in SH3, getting away was the big problem. You could learn a lot about your target, so much so that you would be able to sneak in to a convoy, make your attack, destroy some really juicy stuff inside, and then you would smile...but you still had to get away. Every big convoy you attacked meant a major risk. And in the late war, it was almost suicide. In SH3, after about late 43, early 44, i would only attack from long range (like 3km or 4km from the farthest escort). This is insane range, but with the pattern-running torps available then you can really sink some stuff - _provided_ that your work in 1) is sound.

[Ducimus]

Personally, knowing how the AI works, i view attack and evasion as nothing more then an excercise of threading a needle as you manuever your boat in just the right fashion. Thread it right, you succeed. Thread it wrong, you fail. I think the biggest variance is how wide the eye of that needle is. Small eye, hard to thread. Big eye, easy to thread.

All AI modifications are ultimately play out as nothing more then threading a needle. Again, the only varience between mods, is how large the eye of the needle is that it is asking you to thread. The other variance, is in the players ability to thread needles. But at any rate, it's all a very mechanic process in my view. No mystery or pageantry involved at all, which is probably why i haven't played in over a year.

edit: BTW keelbuster, If i wanted to, i could quite easily ifgiven enough time to properly test it, whip up an AI that would make you think GWX was easy. lol

[Steiger]

Are the current depth charges powerful enough? During bouts of curiosity, I have allowed charges to go off very close to the boat, with direct hits not being all that impressive, damage-wise. I was under the impression that a single direct hit would sink a boat, like what happened to the Lagarto.

[Ducimus]

That depends if you lost hull integrity or not. I've seen two kinds of close end ash cans. One tends to cause some damage to the bulkhead and cause some flooding for a time, but leaves the hull integrity alone.

Thats fine in my book. Adds some realism i think. I like the idea of incurring repairs and flooding while under attack. Im technical game terms, it damaged the bulkhead equipment item and leaks started.

The other causes hull integrity loss. Those are the fatal ones, and ive seen those in testing too.. Generally speaking a depth charge in real world terms has to be very close to crack a hole in the "people tank."

As an aside you may find these damage reports (http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/rep/WDR/WDR58/index.html#contents1) interesting.

[Hylander_1314]

Using TMO 1.9, and when in need of a good DC nailbiter, I go hang out in the Bungo Straits or just off them in the deep water. Good ole Bungo Pete makes things a joy.

[Admiral8Q]

As to making the game more challenging, has been a driving factor behind ALOT of the things ive done. The stock game sucks. No denything that, and as a student of both the PTO and ATO, i cannot in good concious make the JP ASW as good as the allies. My goal is harder, but just short of what i call, "atlantic hard". It has to be plausible. So what i'll typically do is find some excuse to increase the difficulty.

The stock game does not suck, for beginners it's a good way to learn the game. I admit as an experienced player it's a bit too easy though. Don't make the JP ASW as good as the allies. If I want that I'll play SH3 again. The faulty torpedoes of the Mk 14's more then makes up for that.


Take planes for instance. With SD radar, you may as well remove them from the game. What are the chances of being caught on the surface? Then, while putsing around, discovered how to make planes detect submerged objects. Well, thats great, it makes them a threat again, but how am i going to put that in the game and be in context ? Ah Hah! pacific waters were clearer, there's my way to bring this in!

I agree about either removing them from the game, or having them show up on the map again and have them as they were in stock. Otherwise just get rid of them all together. It kills alot of time diving then surfacing then diving then surfacing...

But if they aren't so Uber as they've become, then I may deck it out on the surface once in a while.

Don't make them detect a sub submerged. That's just wrong.

P.S. I love TMO 1.9 so far!:yeah::up::woot:

[Ducimus]

Don't make them detect a sub submerged. That's just wrong.



It's been that way for some time now. The best part is, its not only plausible, but many indications are also historically correct. There are plenty of pictures of subs visible below the surface in the pacific if you google image search enough.

As an side, some info on the USS Grenadier and Planes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Grenadier_%28SS-210%29):

Running on the surface at dawn 21 April, Grenadier spotted, and was simultaneously spotted by, a Japanese plane. As the sub crash dived, her skipper, Commander John A. Fitzgerald commented "we ought to be safe now, as we are between 120 and 130 feet (40 m)." Just then, bombs rocked Grenadier and heeled her over 15 to 20 degrees. Power and lights failed completely and the fatally wounded ship settled to the bottom at 267 feet (81 m). She tried to make repairs while a fierce fire blazed in the maneuvering room.

After 13 hours of sweating it out on the bottom Grenadier managed to surface after dark to clear the boat of smoke and inspect damage. The damage to her propulsion system was irreparable.


As it happens, planes in TMO can most definatly nail you at depth of 130 feet.

Frankly i find removing planes, while a logical decision due to the no threat annoyance they were, something that should be avoided. Reduced in frequency sure, but removed? That never sat right with me, completely removing an element of a submarine sim. Instead, i found a creative and plausible way to make them a threat again.

I'm sure you'll be cussing a mean streak when your detected by a plane if one happens to be around while doing a submerged, daylight periscope attack on an escorted convoy. They WILL alert the escorts, and vector them to your position. It's happen to me twice. :rotfl2:

[Admiral8Q]

It's been that way for some time now. The best part is, its not only plausible, but many indications are also historically correct. There are plenty of pictures of subs visible below the surface.
Good point. In the tropical Pacific, you can see really deep, 150 ft from the air I suppose. I'm from the east coast of Canada (Atlantic Ocean) and seeing below 15 feet is rare but good. I looked up your recommended pics. :up:

As it happens, planes in TMO can most definatly nail you at depth of 130 feet.
That makes sense as that would only be only 35-45 meters in a u-boat.

Frankly i find removing planes, while a logical decision due to the no threat annoyance they were, something that should be avoided. Reduced in frequency sure, but removed? That never sat right with me, completely removing an element of a submarine sim. Instead, i found a creative and plausible way to make them a threat again.
I think they should be left in, but if you score hits on them with the AA gun, they should take a lot of damage.

I'm sure you'll be cussing a mean streak when your detected by a plane if one happens to be around while doing a submerged, daylight periscope attack on an escorted convoy. They WILL alert the escorts, and vector them to your position. It's happen to me twice. :rotfl2:
That makes sense, maybe there needs to be dirigibles too! :hmmm::haha:

P.S. If you want a tester for the next version of TMO, I'll be happy to. Just expect blatant honesty from what I think...:o:03:

[Keelbuster]

As an aside you may find these damage reports (http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/rep/WDR/WDR58/index.html#contents1) interesting.


_awesome_ read. And yea, I like the idea of being dragged down by flooding rather than having a hull integrity fail at shallow depth.

About the plane issue, well, SD radar makes you safe from direct attack, but there are circumstances when they can still get in the way. Yesterday I was trolling at 400 ft during the day (forced down by SD radar contact - I'm in the habit of running at 400 all day because the planes show up like clockwork). Well, I get a hydrophone contact and come to radar depth and do a scan. I plot a rough course on the merchant, and set up an intercept vector. Problem is he's like close to 90 to me, so I need to do an overhaul maneuver. I surface, go flank, and use my special ability to juice the engine. I run for about 20 minutes, and then I get the SD radar contact. The planes are nearby. But I still need to get into a better firing position. Just as the ship comes in visual range, I get aircraft spotted, so I crash dive. Depth charges in my wake. I do the rest of the run to my attack point at 400 ft at flank speed, coming to PD to get off 2 torps and make a kill at just > 90 AoB. It felt good. But yea, the planes can still mess you up. Interestingly, despite the plane having detected me and dropped DCs, the merchant was not alarmed. Could be a range thing I guess (he was at about 6000 yards when I was attacked).

I've also been sunk at PD by planes who must have spotted me (though at high TC I couldn't confirm what it was). That's why I'm in the habit at trolling at 400 ft.

In the end, the night is the submarine's hunting time. By day, often it takes luck to get into a good firing position without being seen. Plus, I've found that escorts/merchants are quite able to spot periscopes at like 1000 to 1500 yards by day. By night you have a lot of flexibility.

[Jan Kyster]

You're covering far too little area running submerged... :D

Spend a minute tracking the plane*). Is he coming too close, go to radardepth or - if very close - go deep.
Start stopwatch, give him 3 minutes to come in and some 4-5 minutes to leave, go back to radar depth.
If all clear surface and continue search...



*) if detected range is some 10-12 miles, by all means: crash dive! Then it's more than probably one of those tiny Zeros... :stare:

Distances are of course dependable of weather and your speed...

[Keelbuster]

You're covering far too little area running submerged... :D

Spend a minute tracking the plane*). Is he coming too close, go to radardepth or - if very close - go deep.
Start stopwatch, give him 3 minutes to come in and some 4-5 minutes to leave, go back to radar depth.
If all clear surface and continue search...



*) if detected range is some 10-12 miles, by all means: crash dive! Then it's more than probably one of those tiny Zeros... :stare:

Distances are of course dependable of weather and your speed...

I wasn't aware that you could get a range from air search radar. How to do this?

[Ducimus]

He's probably plotting the aircraft on the nav map. Most people use it, and TMO's designed to some degree to have it on. In case you ordinarly check "no nav map updates" as quick as i might click, "realistic fuel" the nav map was umm.. nerfed. It no longer displays nationality, ship type, velocity vectors, sensor information, etc. All you get, is a little black dot to mark the contacts position. Everything else you have to do yourself.


Now as cruising goes, staying down at 400 feet is overkill. :O:Personally, if i cruise submerged, i'll do it at 165, sometimes to 200 feet just to clear the first dial if im expecting trouble. But normally at 165 feet. I've never been hit at that depth. They carry two types of bombs, one explodes on or just near the surface, the other, an air dropped depth charge, will detonate at around 147 feet, give or take 3 feet. At 165 feet, it might blister the paint if it goes off at 150 feet, but i doubt it would do anything major. I could be wrong though, some have said they got it pretty good at that depth, but i never have.

[Keelbuster]

He's probably plotting the aircraft on the nav map. Most people use it, and TMO's designed to some degree to have it on. In case you ordinarly check "no nav map updates" as quick as i might click, "realistic fuel" the nav map was umm.. nerfed. It no longer displays nationality, ship type, velocity vectors, sensor information, etc. All you get, is a little black dot to mark the contacts position. Everything else you have to do yourself.


Hmm... from what it sounds like, you get 'truth' in terms of bearing/range automatically? I guess this works for radar surface contacts too? That's a little more than I could live with because obtaining bearing/range information is basically the whole problem. If I had truth about position of a surface contact, then in 9 minutes (or even 6) I'd have true course and speed info. When information is that close to correct, you can take shots at maximum torpedo range and still hit. I'm even a bit wiggy about getting my watch officer to give me a visual range - he gives it accurate to 1 foot. That bugs me. I always wished that there was some filter I could apply so he would naturally round to the nearest 50 or 100 ft. Probably 100. That would be much more realistic and cool.

I don't suppose there's any mod for that? I doubt we could implement rounding, but we could replace the last x digits of the feedback with 0s. I bet this is too hard-coded to get at though...

[Ducimus]

Oh i forgot to mention in my last post.

The A scope and PPI are tied to the SJ radar. In real world terms, the A scope should be tied to the SD radar, but their hardcoded to latch onto the radar that behaves like a surface radar. So with map contacts off, you get no notification other then being told "radar contact".

That said, with map contacts on, you get way too much information. You should get range, but not bearing if i remember my radar nonclamature correctly. :hmmm: (or was that the other way around) Either way, I could probably remove the plane icon from the map altogether. You see right now, planes are tracked on the map only so far out. As they get closer, they are removed from the map. The whole preimse behind the map is to only track what a fellow with a grease pencil could. He can't track fast moving planes. Anyway, the whole thing with the SD radar is a catch 22. You either get too much info, or too little.

And i know nisgeis is working on a radar range unit, but in TMO 2.0, ive gone ahead and added the 4 digit range dials to all the radar cabinets, just in case they end up being needed. It lists the range in meters (as does the whole radar set, but it's so fuzzy in range nobody notices), but it's better then nothing.

[HMCS]

TMO has sunk me more than once. If the originator of the post wants a challenge, then I suggest he start in an S-Boat in Manila at the start of the war...:o

Operating in shallow waters against convoys in say, the East China Sea can be challenging as well. "Depth under keel is...165'".

I play mostly RFB and I have run into Kaibokans there in lat '43 and 44, and it can get pretty hairy.

[Keelbuster]

And i know nisgeis is working on a radar range unit, but in TMO 2.0, ive gone ahead and added the 4 digit range dials to all the radar cabinets, just in case they end up being needed. It lists the range in meters (as does the whole radar set, but it's so fuzzy in range nobody notices), but it's better then nothing.

I'm really excited about this radar range mod. But someone convinced me that the range unit on the scope (the distance measure - can't remember if that's A or PPI) was in yards, despite the x 100 m that is written on it. If it's in meters, that could explain why my radar range estimates were skewed.

The other thing I was wondering about that scope (the SJ radar range scope) is if the scale is actually exponential. Do we know if the game actually plots the range on that scope according to the exponential (compressing) range markers, or is it linear. If it is actually linear, that would also explain my skewed estimates. When I say skewed, if it was just a meter/yard conversion error, then it would still give me the right course info, just off by a certain factor. But what I seem to be getting when I eyeball the scope and plot bearing and range purely from SJ radar to get a course, is a bending of the course (to when I get the actual course from visual bearing/range). Does this make sense?

I'm really concerned about radar because it could potentially (and is starting to be for me) the most important tool on the boat. The ability to plot accurate bearing/range info when I'm way outside of visual range is almost magic.

[Morpheus]

I'll ground a new fanclub: "Give me Damaaage!!!" - and give it good!

There is nothing more thrilling than a DC attack that nearly kills you and your sub, but lets you survive somehow in the end. Whe are a band of masochists searching just for the right amount of pain ^^

morph

[Jan Kyster]

PERFORMANCE:
SD-a, SD-1 and SD-2, with antenna at 40' above water, have a reliable maximum range of 15 miles on medium bombers at 10,000' altitude. SD-3, with antenna at 80 ft. has a reliable maximum range of 25 miles on a medium bomber at 10,000'. Range accuracy is ± 500 yards. Bearing accuracy of SD-3 is ± 10°.
Source: http://www.history.navy.mil/Library/online/radar-1.htm

The Current Doctrine: http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/SS-Doct/index.html#contents

Fluckeys radarman could tell from the echo, it was a destroyer?

[Armistead]

With RSRD you sort of got to know where the action is. Once you learn it, you can get more than you'll ever want. In 42 and 43 I stay in the Solomons mostly. Research the battles that took place as they're all in RSRD well in that area. The Battle of Santa Cruz probably the largest. I just chased this group in battle forever.
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6421019045/m/5031017848

All the other battles are well done, battle of Savo's a good one if you want to see some large suface action between the fleets. Coral Sea the biggy is also well done. I'm sure you'll seen the flash messages of all the DD's running the slot, can be fun to attack if you're brave and want to shoot at large groups of DD's.


You can also catch large convoys coming from Truk to Rabaul.

Early war, 42, Feb and March just run the coast of Java, many convoys of 40 plus merchants.

If you want real action, just hang in the Formosa Strait in 44, many large convoys come through and seems all have many type AB escorts with those 6 Y guns. Try fighting those in shallow water.

The main fun with RSRD is catching the many large invasion forces scripted...

[Grizzybear]

I think TMO is pretty well done. I run 1.9 and RSRD and yea I get away with murder from some DD's there are some that just nail me...If you wish look at my patrol log about a interesting patrol in the Drum..suffice to say if I where in command she wouldnt be a museum:rock:

[Immacolata]

With RSRD you sort of got to know where the action is.

The main fun with RSRD is catching the many large invasion forces scripted...

Spot on. Which is probably why I was really bored with it. I never managed to get near any of the flat top action in the Coral sea due to extreme fighter coverage :)

[Armistead]

Spot on. Which is probably why I was really bored with it. I never managed to get near any of the flat top action in the Coral sea due to extreme fighter coverage :)

Taking part of the battle of the Coral Sea is easy, I've done it with an S boat. Just get to where it is and wait. I was in a S boat and first found the Shoho sunk it and went to Coral Sea...I hit one carrier but with S boat couldn't chase it.

The best place to catch the Coral Sea TF is sit below San Cristobal and the smaller island below it. On May 5 or 6 the Yorktown will come through as it launches plans against the TF at Tulagi.
If you'll place yourself near where you find the Yorktown, the night of May 6, maybe 7, the jap fleet will come through.

http://www.historyanimated.com/CoralSea.html

I just finished this major battle using RSRD. After the last 4 patrols it was almost more than I could deal with, probably had 12 hours in it over two days..

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=6421019045&m=7951006058&r=4151038058#4151038058

[Immacolata]

It is the whole "knowing history in advance" that kinds of bore me. I would much rather have opportunities to spot enemies by radio report, chance or luck. Chasing a task force is exciting. Knowing where it is and lie in wait is not. RSRD felt like a whole lot of emptiness with some few, fixed points of fun around it. I guess I just like my Pacific War to be more gamey?

I am not sure how TMO 1.9 works on its campaign layer, but at least I'm having more what SEEMS like "chance" encounters. This is all very subjective, but as I'm not able to cite every naval engagement from the Pacific War by heart, TMO seems to be more fun looking at it through my periscope.

Its a bit like Europa Universalis III. I am all in for a historical SETTING with plausible cause-and-effect. But I dont want to re-enact history.

[Armistead]

Almost every major engagement subs were sent to close positions and that's what RSRD does....even stock does it, just poorly. The stock reports while you dock telling you what's going on gives you tons of info. With RSRD convoys aren't going to spawn on you every 30 minutes game time

Stock has most of the same battles, just poorly done. No doubt you play stock, RSRD or any campaign mod, you know where to sit you can find things. I always sit in the San Bern Straits for the battle of Leyte to duke it out with the center force. I get bored chasing the stock simple convoys, packed close together, dodge some dd's for a few ship kills when I can do running battles over 500 miles with large TF's or Convoys.

However, Midway, Battle of Philippines, Santa Cruz, Leyte, ect...we basically knew where they were going.

TMO 1.9 reworked layers more like RSRD, except you'll find more convoys. Stock will always spawn convoys near you within certain limits regardless of how real it is. RSRD can get boring as you can go for weeks without a ship, but usually you run into a convoy...it's a big um, well protected.

Like the last major battle I did. I got a contact report, went flank to get there. I was out of position when sonar got it, but tracked for a day to attack. I then chased it for two days in and out of storms almost to Tokyo..

One thing I've done as I did get bored knowing where battles were is to try to attack a different path not where the actual battle is.

Still for most they can't resist getting involved in a large historical battle, most prefer that than chasing the same type convoys over and over.

[Immacolata]

Hm, perhaps something was not right with my RSRD install. I ran for two months without any radio reports of convoys. OR anything really except that I had to relocate my base when Japan invaded Java etc. All I got was single merchants. Was put on patrol near Formosa and Celebes sea, like, the opposite direction of the action. Sigh.

[Armistead]

Hmmm, not sure..I don't know that I've ever ran over two months without a radio flash message.

The map screen is much different if RSRD working, you'll notice a lot more labels.

[Admiral8Q]

Don't use RSRD.

[Armistead]

Why not...I wouldn't play without it..The traffic layers in stock are fubar.

[Admiral8Q]

Get the Narwhal, it's a bloody nice boat early in the war.

[Immacolata]

Why not...I wouldn't play without it..The traffic layers in stock are fubar.

But I am not using stock traffic layers. I am using TMO 1.9. Ducimus edited the layers a lot, he said.

[Armistead]

TMO 1.9 layers are much better, closer to RSRD, but a lot more traffic, just not all the invasion forces or battles. I do like how he put more of a zig pattern and more speed to TF in TMO..

Oh, if only we could combine the work of both.

[Admiral8Q]

It is the whole "knowing history in advance" that kinds of bore me. I would much rather have opportunities to spot enemies by radio report, chance or luck. Chasing a task force is exciting. Knowing where it is and lie in wait is not.

I am all in for a historical SETTING with plausible cause-and-effect. But I dont want to re-enact history.

I have to agree with this. It is a game. Games are meant to be fun. On my current patrol I made a supply drop, reported to the south China sea. Chased down a sonar contact which turned out to be a couple of sub chasers. (The game "paused" for a second so I went to the sonar station and found them. My sonar man must be deaf, heh heh!) Now I'm heading pass Singapore hoping to find something to sink. So far I've only sunk one Sampan, oi.

Anyways, it would be interesting to have a campaign where the Japs actually win the Pacific war and the American fight goes on into the 1950's. That would be an interesting scenario! :cool:

[Armistead]

You wanna find some fun with RSRD in Oct -Dec of 43, hang about 170nms east of Saipan. You'll get several flash messages of TF and convoys. I found 3 large convoys just headed that way. On the way back I ran into a lone Shokaku and was like..alone..Oh well...gave him my 4 remaining bows. Wasn't long here came a lone CA, but going fast, so I let him go, only for another lone CA to pop up that I took out with my afts. I had one aft left and a few more CA"S and BB's came through with no escorts. Finally a flash message popped up that IGN units would be coming from Truk to Home Waters. The location was 500NMS away 3 days from now, I just caught them early on their path.

Coming home entering Bismark I run into a TF, thinking US, but a group of LCA's, Kumi and Agano's. I torp left I sunk a rare Agano since I don't see em much.

Another flash message 5 convoys between Truk and Home Waters..Seems they pass 150nms west of Saipan, so that's the honey spot in late 43.

[Keelbuster]

Personally, knowing how the AI works, i view attack and evasion as nothing more then an excercise of threading a needle as you manuever your boat in just the right fashion. Thread it right, you succeed. Thread it wrong, you fail. I think the biggest variance is how wide the eye of that needle is. Small eye, hard to thread. Big eye, easy to thread.

All AI modifications are ultimately play out as nothing more then threading a needle. Again, the only varience between mods, is how large the eye of the needle is that it is asking you to thread. The other variance, is in the players ability to thread needles. But at any rate, it's all a very mechanic process in my view. No mystery or pageantry involved at all, which is probably why i haven't played in over a year.

edit: BTW keelbuster, If i wanted to, i could quite easily ifgiven enough time to properly test it, whip up an AI that would make you think GWX was easy. lol

I'm playing TMO clean now. And I'm _liking_ it. First patrol I encountered (via a radio report map update) a decent sized convoy with three escorts in perfectly clear weather just near the entrance to the Bungo Strait. I went in and fired six torps at 4000 yards (closest I dare get around escorts with such sensitive ears) and I sunk one decent sized cargo and blew the rudder and prop off another. In a second attack after overhauling the convoy I scored a hit on a tanker and shew blew up. I promptly got detected and 3 escorts converged. They took turns pinging me, doing DC runs with crazy abandon, and generally beating the hell out of me. I didn't seem to have a thermal layer to get under, and I took damage (though no flooding). After about 15 or 20 minutes of this something big must have happened because all three destroyers turned and blazed away at flank speed. It was a thoroughly satisfying experience. I then came up after a few hours of running silent. I did a hydrophone check, nothing. Came to radar depth, and did a scan - I get a contact at 2200 yards, bearing 190. It's a jap DD, waiting in my baffles. I go silent again and drop down to 300 ft and he searches around a bit and then bails. Eventually I get to surface and do some repairs. Now _that_ is a solid submarine experience. Reminds me of o'le gwx.

Plus, even with update map contacts off, I seem to get my convoy radio reports plotted, which is great. I'm really getting into this mod - so glad to see radio reported convoys plotted on the map again with some regularity. On the way home I got a task force reported going 20kts my way. Unfortunately the only torps I had were aft, and those tubes were damaged in the attack and could not be opened:DL

One thing I noticed about the AI sensors in TMO is that it seems to make a massive difference whether or not you're on silent running. I was about 6000 yards or so away from an escort (clear water) running at ahead slow with silent running off, and he became suspicious. But I've found you can get within 2000 yards ahead slow with silent running without making them suspicious. I can work with this. I'm just used to GWX 3.0, where I remember being able to approach at ahead 2/3 until say...2000m away or so and then go silent.

Also, I seem to remember that in SH3/GWX the DDs were deaf if they were moving fast or very fast. I feel like this might not be the case in SH4/TMO. Anybody know?

Cheers to TMO.

Kb

P.S. What kind of ship is Bungo Pete? Sub-chaser perhaps?

[Platapus]

P.S. What kind of ship is Bungo Pete? Sub-chaser perhaps?

In the movie it was called an "Akikaze". There was an such a ship called the Akikaze. It was commissioned in 1921 a Minekaze class destroyer. While still a pretty good esort, it would not have been the sub killer as depicted in the movie. Especially since she did not have any depth charges. She was designed more as a torpedo launcher.

The Akikaze died an honourable death in November 1944 when she deliberatly intercepted torpedoes headed toward the carrier Junyō. All hands were lost. :salute:

What I find interesting in the movie is that Clark Gable "practiced" his approach using a Momo destroyer.

There was such a destroyer called the Momo. It was one of the Matsu Class destroyers. However, the Momo was commissioned in 1944 and the movie was supposed to take place in 1943. (missed it by that much)

If, the movie had taken place in late 1944, Clark Gable would have found the Momo a much harder adversary than the Akikaze. He would have used the Akikaze to practice his dumb approach.


So to answer your question, these were fictional destroyers in the movie.

In the Beach book, Bungo Pete was the nickname of the Japanese destroyer Captain, not the ship.

If you have not yet read the book, be prepared. It is quite different from the movie. And it raises an interesting and dark moral question.

[Ducimus]

The akikaze is indeed a fictional character, I put him in as a nod to the movie "Run silent run deep".

The akikaze in TMO is a minekaze class destroyer, though in the Rec manual, it will say "Akikaze class". He's fitted with the BEST hydrophone and active sonar for the japs in game, has 2 drop racks, and 4 Kguns arranged in such a way to deliver wide pattern, which you can vaugley see starting at 1Min and ending at 1:38 in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC2crGDp5oI) someone posted.

Bungo pete, will sometimes make an appearance in the bungo suido (near area 7 on your nav map). And, late war, will sometimes be found escorting a convoy (very rare, but possible as of tmo 1.9)

The other one you have to look out for, is PB102. A clemson class destroyer captured by the japanese, and participant in the attack that sank "Destroyer killer" Sam Dealy. He may sometimes be found in place of the akikaze.

[orangehat44]

Currently I have TMO 1.9 and RSRD. It seems from the sound of this thread, if Im looking more for the thrill of the chance of taking command of the sub and doing what they did, but not nessicarily EXACTLY what they did back in the war i should just run TMO clean without RSRD. Im realitivly new to the SH series and although it would be cool to chase some big battles right now Im more in it just to play and like I said have an experience with out playing the game with my history book open infront of me. Maybe after I have a campaign or two id be more interested in chasing some of the big battles.

But does TMO have some of the big battles to stumble on?

Either way it sounds like I might enjoy without RSRD for a while, is that an accurate assumption? Also do I need to be in port to take RSRD off and leave TMO on if I choose to? is there a special procedure for a mod flip around like that?

Thanks guys. Ive had some what of an eventful career with RSRD on but I guess if theres more "excitiment" in clean TMO I might lean towards that for now and try the truly historical stuff another time.

What do ya guys think.

[Keelbuster]

Currently I have TMO 1.9 and RSRD. It seems from the sound of this thread, if Im looking more for the thrill of the chance of taking command of the sub and doing what they did, but not nessicarily EXACTLY what they did back in the war i should just run TMO clean without RSRD. Im realitivly new to the SH series and although it would be cool to chase some big battles right now Im more in it just to play and like I said have an experience with out playing the game with my history book open infront of me. Maybe after I have a campaign or two id be more interested in chasing some of the big battles.

But does TMO have some of the big battles to stumble on?

Either way it sounds like I might enjoy without RSRD for a while, is that an accurate assumption? Also do I need to be in port to take RSRD off and leave TMO on if I choose to? is there a special procedure for a mod flip around like that?

Thanks guys. Ive had some what of an eventful career with RSRD on but I guess if theres more "excitiment" in clean TMO I might lean towards that for now and try the truly historical stuff another time.

What do ya guys think.

I did a career with RSRD and enjoyed it. I thought the flash traffic reports were a neat way to handle global strategic intel. In a few instances, I was able to intercept the targets that came over the wireless. But often my patrol grid was far away from the action, so I missed quite a few big things. I tried to get in the way of major battles (using wiki to guide me on dates and places) but didn't have a ton of luck with that. Right now I'm playing with TMO alone, and I've noticed that instead of the flash traffic reports, it plots convoy radio report information on the map a la SH3 GWX. I'm more comfortable with this approach. I'm not bound to historical realism; I like uncertainty and surprise. I found it hard to find convoys with RSRD, but with TMO alone, I've found a few already in my short (now finished - 2nd patrol) career. With RSRD I made it through 11 patrols and most of my kills were lone merchants.

[orangehat44]

Thanks KB, I feel the same like I said I want realism I love simulators, But I dont want to be alt tabbing every five min to find the date and long/lats. Id rather have the immersion and realism of being the skipper in a ww2 sub fighting "my own war" i guess you could say. Ive gotten most of my kills in RSRD on lone merchants or harbor raiding. I think i just might get rid of RSRD for now and try TMO clean, then som day if I feel like chasing the big battles I could load it back up and have another career for that. Gotta love thats the beauty of JGSEME i guess.

[Keelbuster]

Thanks KB, I feel the same like I said I want realism I love simulators, But I dont want to be alt tabbing every five min to find the date and long/lats. Id rather have the immersion and realism of being the skipper in a ww2 sub fighting "my own war" i guess you could say. Ive gotten most of my kills in RSRD on lone merchants or harbor raiding. I think i just might get rid of RSRD for now and try TMO clean, then som day if I feel like chasing the big battles I could load it back up and have another career for that. Gotta love thats the beauty of JGSEME i guess.

Yea - I don't wanna dis the RSRD mod. Like, I like the historical component and I respect all the work that went into it. I'm new to the pacific so I'm not in the know about most of the big events. When I get trained up, I'll probably do another RSRD campaign and soak it all up. Right now I'm following patrol orders, grabbing targets of opportunity, etc.

[Armistead]

RSRD can be frustrating, but I've never had the experience of not finding traffic and 70% of what I find is still by chance. If I'm near a flash report, I'll certainly go looking. The main thing I find with the stars is the traffic is usually about 30NM's from the star. He probably set it up that way so you just wouldn't sit there and here it comes.

Historical or not, your not just gonna go to a historical location and always find the traffic. It's a crap shoot.

The only time I ever got peod about single merchants was 43, but I've now found where most the traffic is. RSRD is historical in the other sense you have to be in the campaign areas. It's not going to spawn heavy convoy traffic in unrealistic places within US zones of power unless it was an actual battle. Stock will spawn traffic anywhere at anytime.

Historical or not the US knew where the main traffic lanes were at certain times and the game gives you that info when you return to port in the movie.

The lanes where you will almost find heavy traffic is Singy to Shanghai, with stops at Hong Kong. Palua to Rabual, Truk to Rabual and home waters.

Something else to remember is convoy paths which are realistic in RSRD. Ships actually start at the right location and travel. You don't have to find the battle at the actual historical spot. Once I found the Midway TF leaving through the Bungo. The large TF for the Battle of the Philippines is docked at Tawi before they leave. It's fun to try to plot where they will be coming from and ambush them where it benefits you, like in a strait.

I don't mind the average convoys that spawn all the time in TMO and stock, but nothing beats a large battle where surface fleets fight it out, hundreds of planes in the air and you spend weeks traveling hundreds of miles setting up attack after attack....

[orangehat44]

Like keel said I dont wanna dis RSRD too. I think its awsome. But right now I just need the experience. While I love realistic simulators, Subs are something ive loved but never studied in much depth. I dont use manual torps yet but want to learn. But in the first few weeks of owning the game, and the initial infatuation I just wanna blow stuff up lol:arrgh!:. I want to learn the nuances of the subs, how to avoid, a true hunt. Ive only been dc'ed by a few sub chasers when I was boldly going after a port. I think if I play some TMO clean, and get the opportunity to run into some more boats and convoys, I'll get the experience even if they are spawning in unlikly locations. The maybe some day go historic heavy with rsrd, maybe RFB. we'll see.

[Admiral8Q]

I just wanna blow stuff up lol:arrgh!:. I want to learn the nuances of the subs, how to avoid, a true hunt. Ive only been dc'ed by a few sub chasers when I was boldly going after a port. I think if I play some TMO clean, and get the opportunity to run into some more boats and convoys, I'll get the experience even if they are spawning in unlikly locations. The maybe some day go historic heavy with rsrd, maybe RFB. we'll see.

That is an excellent way to start if you're new. A lot of people, like me, have years, even decades of experience in these sub simulation games. Everyone has the things that they like or dislike.

[orangehat44]

WOW DUCIMUS:dead:. I took off RSRD and opend up a whole new world of hurt lol. Started over first mission was to patrol 108 nm near the mouth of the entrance to the Tokyo port. I got into position and was going around, and I my patrol zone covered into the tokyo bay area. so being a young skipper full of piss and vinegar the days after pearl harbor decided to bring some hurt to the japs.

Entering the mouth i saw a destroyer patrolling, litterally sailing across the mouth of the channel making it very hard to get in. Stupidly I crept up towards him running silent. hugging the west side of the mouth. when I thought I was close enough and he was going the other way i figured I could try to sprint forward at flank while I was behind his screws. Run the gauntlet to avoid detection till after I raided the harbor and left. When it became clear I wasnt going to make it I tried to surface and sprint around the point before he saw me. (A crew member has the skill to get 1.5 extra knots out of the engines at surface max. Well as you would have guessed He spotted me (was about 3000 yrds away from me when I surfaced). he immediatly spun towards me and picked up speed. I threw some shells at him. put his were landing close in a hurry. and he was getting close in a hurry. so i ordered periscope depth and did a knuckle to port. I new I certinally wasnt going to run away from him or run far as I was running out of water (i was trying to hug the port side of the enterance of the bay/harbor/whatever.) so I thought my only option was some deterance, raised the scope. and saw he was bearing direcly 180 heading straight at me, AOB 0 right? He was a destroyer pretty narrow, but I didnt have many options. I opend 2 stren tubes. set them to around 5 ft contact and magnetic fast and fired them right at his nose. one missed to the right but another torp drilled him in the chin. And he turned tail to run!!!!:rock: I was in high spirits then. so i went after him on the surface pouding him with the deck gun. He soon got out of my range/priority as i rounded the point into that first port in the tokyo area as there were 2 battleships parked HALELLUYA. The kongo was parked out of port with its broadside to me. it was like a xmas present. I lined him up and loosed the first salvo of 3 fish. 2 premes and a deep runner :wah:. the next 3 2 dudes and a preme. problem was there was another DD that i wasnt paying atttention to as i tunnel visioned on the kongo i spun the scope and all of a sudden when i reached bearing 200 ish i couldnt see anything:hmmm: the DD snuck up in my screw wake and was on top of me. It didnt end well. lol I battle surfaced hopping to pop him in a magazine or something, that was about my only hope. in 50 feet of water with a dd parked on top of you lol.


So my quick test last night to see if TMO clean was a whole different animal and it certianly was. Now i'll have to play when I really have some time and am not rushing so I can really learn and enjoy. Last night was a combination of not having enough time to play and impatience and wanting to test TMO clean, to keep me from playing smart. But it was fun and now I know i think i will learn a lot as before I went unchallenged.

THANKS TMO CREW:salute:

[magic452]

Good little story there Orangehat.

There are two key words for TMO, patience and smart. :know:
After your experience you can add one other thing "DEEP WATER" :D

Magic

[SgtSabre]

After marveling at the realism of RFB, I sought added danger and loaded TMO 1.9. Holy moly! I found it!

I started in an S-18 out of Brisbane in '42. Got sent out to assist with the Guadalcanal campaign. I was looking forward to taking shots at tin cans running the Tokyo express.

In the slot I found what I thought was a Momi class patrol boat running south toward Guadalcanal. It spotted me at about 6000 yards and let loose with some gun fire which missed completely. I sounded the alarm and dove to 180ft. The boat ran over me and I was shocked to hear about ten depth charges hit the water. The explosions threw my little S-boat around like I had never experienced before. This went on for three or four runs, then one run of only two charges. After that my pursuer ran over top of me twice without dropping anything.

I figured he must be out of depth charges. I came to periscope depth and found him at about my 300 bearing at nearly a 90 deg. AOB, heading to my stern. Two MK10 torpedoes barely missed to his stern. I dove back to about 80ft, expecting him to come around for another run. After listening, it seemed he just kept circling toward my stern. I came back up to periscope depth, plugged in a quick solution, and let loose one more MK10. This one hit amidships, destroying my adversary.

I looked at the captain's log to find that I had mis-identified my foe. What I thought was a Momi patrol boat was really a Minekaze destroyer. Good score, I thought.

I spent the rest of the week trying to stay surfaced long enough to re-charge my batteries while running into what seemed to be a saturation of Japanese air traffic. Finally I left the slot hoping to find some clear air so I could run on the sruface long enough to charge up. I never made it. I was cruising along at about 160ft after spotting an air patrol when I was hit. Presumably by said air patrol. My depth guage read over 1500ft when my boat gave in. I think the guage was broken, though. The diving officer called out a depth of 520ft before the implosion.

Looks like I found the danger. :D