British AA fire is too accurate!

[keith_uk]

I sent a contact report for a convoy of British merchant ships in the English channel. A few waves of JU-188's came and bombed them, but the British merchant ships shot every one of them down in minutes.

This is way inaccurate, so i was wondering is there is a way to fix the British AA accuracy to be more realistic?

Thanks,

Keith.

[Sgtmonkeynads]

I noticed that also.

Our planes will attack them ,
their planes won't attack us.
Their AA is spot on everytime,
ours might as well be shooting in the opposite direction.

Ahhh.....balance.....?

It will take alot of work.:nope:

[mcarlsonus]

It's the WHOLE friggin' enemy artillery that's FAR too accurate! I've never seen them shoot down a friendly aircraft (because I've never even SEEN a friendly aircraft!), but, to a surfaced U-Boat, those merchies are dead-eye marksmen! They're more dangerous than the escorts!

[Pablo]

It's the WHOLE friggin' enemy artillery that's FAR too accurate! I've never seen them shoot down a friendly aircraft (because I've never even SEEN a friendly aircraft!), but, to a surfaced U-Boat, those merchies are dead-eye marksmen! They're more dangerous than the escorts!
Well,

I guess that would be in line with the historical reticence of U-boat commanders to conduct surface attacks against armed merchant ships.

Pablo

[Bilge_Rat]

I think many of the issues in the game are tied up with the campaign.

I was playing the Pedestal single mission over the weekend (med, summer 42). Allied planes were attacking my sub every time they spotted me. I was even detected and attacked while submerged at periscope depth (I presume they spotted my scope?).

The Pedestal mission also features a friendly italian task force. I just happened to be close by when it was attacked by allied carrier aircraft, quite a few were shot down by AA fire.

When my sub was spotted and attacked at periscope depth, a task force I had been stalking and that was heading straight for me suddenly changed course and started moving away from my position.

In the PQ-17 mission I had played before, the escorts (veteran AI, aggressive doctrine) often detected my sub, even when I was running slow and deep.

so the single missions seem to work pretty well. Logically, there is no reason why the campaign should not work as well. Hopefully the campaign issues will be fixed in a patch.

[Catfish]

Hello,

@Pablo regarding shooting merchants:

" ... I guess that would be in line with the historical reticence of U-boat commanders to conduct surface attacks against armed merchant ships. ..."

While it is correct that the U-boats usually did not attack armed merchants, there are only two U-boats reported to be ever hit at all, by the fire of merchant's guns.

During the early war when the prize regulation was still conducted by Germany, all ships were stopped and searched, their papers controlled etc., and this was continued well into 1940. Neutral ships were allowed to continue, if they were not loaded with ammunition or arms, and on the course to England. Enemy merchants mostly sailing under wrong flags were stopped, their crew allowed to leave the ship, and then the merchant being sunk, mostly by deck gun fire, while a torpedo would only be used if there was imminent danger, by planes or closing enemy warships.

However the arming of merchants made the following of the prize regulation impossible, the prize regulation did not allow or foresee merchants to be armed, so this meant a violation against the treaties almost all nations had signed. Another anti prize regulation measure was the sailing in protected convoys, what had certainly been done centuries before, and made a surfaced attack in daylight impossible.

What followed was the "unrestricted" U-boat war, which b.t.w. had been conducted by England from day one after its "Total Germany" declaration of war - which obvioulsy meant a "total war".

So hostile fire seldomly did any damage due to poor training, but also U-boats would not take the risk anymore, to attack armed merchants surfaced later in the war. Training of merchant's gun crews seems to have been mediocre at best, but in one case a merchant did indeed sink a boat - i think it was somewhere in the channel (?)

Greetings,
Catfish

[keith_uk]

I kept back at a safe distance watching as the German aircraft headed towards the British ships. It was a battle i was looking forward to watching after weeks of doing the same old thing and not seeing any battles at all.

Watching every single German bomber get shot down really was an immersion killer. Something like ten JU-188's shot down in a few minutes by merchant ships...it just wouldnt happen.

Is there nothing that can be modded/changed in a cfg file somewhere to reduce the British AA accuracy?
What about this section in the simCFG file:
[AI AA guns]
Max error angle=5 ;[deg]
Max fire range=1500 ;[m]
Max fire wait=7 ;[s]


Keith.

[mcarlsonus]

"Catfish" is right! In reality, some US Merchant Marine vessels carried US Navy gun crews, but, overall, the record of hits on U-Boats was negligible. Anti-aircraft capabilities? Non-existent outside of use of hand-held weapons or .50 caliber Browning MG's mounted as accessories to a main 3 or 4-incher.

"Bilge Rat" has a point. I've grown bored with the Campaign and generally play online with others. All of us have wondered why the AI is so much better when NOT playing Campaign - especially when playing maps that were uploaded by talented folks who DON'T happen to work for Ubi! Further, I've played the, "canned" mission referred to and was astounded by the difference in game play! It's actually CHALLENGING - the escorts and aircraft DO present a threat!

We've all heard a number of times that Campaign AI improves over time as hostiles become more experienced. Although HISTORICALLY this was true, I don't see an improvement - and I pretty much lost interest in December '41! SO, two years into the War and ... developmentally disabled escorts still rule and merchant gunners are FAR more dangerous!

[badhat17]

I was playing the Pedestal single mission over the weekend (med, summer 42). Allied planes were attacking my sub every time they spotted me. I was even detected and attacked while submerged at periscope depth (I presume they spotted my scope?).


The water in the med is very clear so it is possible for an aircraft to spot a sub at PD, even down to around 100ft I have read somewhere.

[Captain Wolfe]

I dearly want better AI and enemy aircraft in the campaign. I'm getting tired of planes just flying by (even directly over me) and not doing a thing (I've also never encountered ships that they are supposed to radio my position to). I snuck into a harbor, popped 2 ships with torps (after completely reloading all forward tubes once) and not once did I get engaged by the dozen or so surface ships I could see through the scope...it didn't even seem like they changed their patrol patterns to look for the sub that had to be there.

I don't mean to hijack, but does anyone know of a mod out yet that drastically fixes the AI both surface and air?

-Captain Wolfe

[d@rk51d3]

It's the WHOLE friggin' enemy artillery that's FAR too accurate! I've never seen them shoot down a friendly aircraft (because I've never even SEEN a friendly aircraft!), but, to a surfaced U-Boat, those merchies are dead-eye marksmen! They're more dangerous than the escorts!

LOL

Exactly what I was thinking. Who needs escorts when the merchants can shoot so well.

[Leandros]

It's the WHOLE friggin' enemy artillery that's FAR too accurate! I've never seen them shoot down a friendly aircraft (because I've never even SEEN a friendly aircraft!), but, to a surfaced U-Boat, those merchies are dead-eye marksmen! They're more dangerous than the escorts!
So, same as in SHIII. I made a couple of scenarios in the editor and as far as I can see the AAA, both on ships and land, is much too effective. Anyway, if one compares with RL statstics from the time.

[mcarlsonus]

I don't remember SH3 too well. Tried SH4, but it was so troublesome, I finally gave up. THEN, I got and installed the U-Boat add-on, but that proved JUST as frustrating (such things as the Type XXI's ("XVIII?") depth control issues which had it bounding between 5m and 27m whenever one surfaced drove me BONKERS! Further, the SH4 U-Boat add-on introduced the now famous, "planes that never attack" mod in the form of two Brewster Buffalos in echelon formation that appeared everywhere...all the time)

ANYWAY...what were we talking about?

[NoLine]

Is there nothing that can be modded/changed in a cfg file somewhere to reduce the British AA accuracy?
What about this section in the simCFG file:
[AI AA guns]
Max error angle=5 ;[deg]
Max fire range=1500 ;[m]
Max fire wait=7 ;[s]


Keith.

Yes set max error angle to 6 or 7, guns can be changed there also.
And i agree theyre both to accurate.

cheers
Noline

[Patchman123]

It's the WHOLE friggin' enemy artillery that's FAR too accurate! I've never seen them shoot down a friendly aircraft (because I've never even SEEN a friendly aircraft!), but, to a surfaced U-Boat, those merchies are dead-eye marksmen! They're more dangerous than the escorts!

Yeah, I know. :haha: Why not we able to take out the guy manning the cannon or anti aircraft guns? WHY CAN'T HE JUST DIE? :damn: :damn: I fired umpteen cannon shells at the bow cannon and the guy manning it should have been killed. You should be able to kill the guy manning the guns if you hit them. He does not die and you don't see men on the ships running to man the machine guns if you shoot the crewman shooting the gun. You should make the ship defenseless if you shoot at the AA guns or deck cannons on the merchant ship. You'd make it defenseless against you. You'd be able to take out the crewman manning the gun, thus making it easier to sink that ship. You see what I mean?

[Kromus]

If I remember right, in SH3 you could blow away whole cannon and kill guy manning it.

[Pablo]

Hello,

@Pablo regarding shooting merchants:

<snip>

So hostile fire seldomly did any damage due to poor training, but also U-boats would not take the risk anymore, to attack armed merchants surfaced later in the war. Training of merchant's gun crews seems to have been mediocre at best, but in one case a merchant did indeed sink a boat - i think it was somewhere in the channel (?)

Greetings,
Catfish
Hi!

I agree that merchant ships did not sink many U-boats; however, from reading the U-boat commander's handbook it seems to me that the Germans' main concern about engaging armed merchant ships in surface combat was that the U-boat was giving up its decisive submerged combat advantages (stealth; immune to return fire; devastating torpedo attack) and making it an "even fight", or worse if the merchant ship had antiaircraft weapons or small-arms that could be used against the U-boat's highly exposed gunners.

Pablo

[vonTorpitz]

I snuck into a harbor, popped 2 ships with torps (after completely reloading all forward tubes once) and not once did I get engaged by the dozen or so surface ships I could see through the scope...it didn't even seem like they changed their patrol patterns to look for the sub that had to be there.

Haramirs escorts awareness mod improved escort AI for me, but the planes still fly harmelessley over head, at least in the early campaign. Im wondering if its because, early on in the war the R.A.F. hadn't developed effective anti sub tactics yet. But really, they would have at least tried to score a hit. They don't even shoot. However they do serve a role as reconnaissance planes.....for yet more reconnaissance planes.

[keith_uk]

:hmmm:I started this thread regarding the British AA guns being too accurate.

Keith.

[walsh2509]

Hi!

I agree that merchant ships did not sink many U-boats; however, from reading the U-boat commander's handbook it seems to me that the Germans' main concern about engaging armed merchant ships in surface combat was that the U-boat was giving up its decisive submerged combat advantages (stealth; immune to return fire; devastating torpedo attack) and making it an "even fight", or worse if the merchant ship had antiaircraft weapons or small-arms that could be used against the U-boat's highly exposed gunners.

Pablo


Agree with that , I was on the surface because I was out of Torps and there were 2 Merchants dead in the water with some others sailing on. It was in Heavy Seas at night and in Heave Rain , I was 5,000mts from the ship that was sailing on. Now with that Merchant going up and down in the Heavy sea at night and in Heavy Rain her gunners still hit 1 in 3 shots, of the other 2 shots , 1 would miss badly the other exploded in the water that close it would damage the Hull.

It seems they have Night Vision and rolling heavy seas does not effect there aim.

[Captain Wolfe]

Haramirs escorts awareness mod improved escort AI for me, but the planes still fly harmelessley over head, at least in the early campaign. Im wondering if its because, early on in the war the R.A.F. hadn't developed effective anti sub tactics yet. But really, they would have at least tried to score a hit. They don't even shoot. However they do serve a role as reconnaissance planes.....for yet more reconnaissance planes.

Thanks I'll give this mod a try and see how it works. That's what I want, a good cat and mouse game.

:hmmm:I started this thread regarding the British AA guns being too accurate.

Keith.

Sorry to hijack the thread there for a bit, but I got the help I wanted so in the words of Captain Ramius: "...then you may report back to your posts."

-Captain Wolfe

[Fledermaus]

:hmmm:I started this thread regarding the British AA guns being too accurate.

Keith.

I did not even know that you could witness battles on sea anti air??!! I have never ever seen a ship firing an AA gun ever, or a sea battle.

How can I see one happening? I want to witness such battle!! What's the best way to achieve this ?

[mcarlsonus]

try Historical Missions. The one including the Italian Navy task group has LOTS (!!!!) of air activity -- both friendly AND hostile!

[Fledermaus]

ok I will try that but does that means that it is not so in the campaign? I would love to be guarding a convoy or such that gets attacked by an AC or so. Which I will have to sink then...

[keith_uk]

I'm in the summer of 1940 in the campaign and i've seen two convoys in the English channel be attacked by JU-188's, JU-87's ME 109's and FW Condors.

Almost all the attacking planes are shot down and this is the problem i have and the reason i started this thread.

Keith.

[mcarlsonus]

Out of curiosity, which Campaign and why were you in the English Channel? I'm in March '42, have avoided the Meditteranean, but have yet to have an assigned patrol area anywhere but the North Atlantic and north of Scandinavia, west of Russia proper!

[keith_uk]

The standard game campaign, around the "happy times" part.

I often use the channel to get from base to my patrol area and back.

If you spot a convoy in the channel, send a contact report and try and stay at a safe distance.

Keith.

[Cap.Palla]

I sent a contact report for a convoy of British merchant ships in the English channel. A few waves of JU-188's came and bombed them, but the British merchant ships shot every one of them down in minutes.

This is way inaccurate, so i was wondering is there is a way to fix the British AA accuracy to be more realistic?

Thanks,

Keith.

OMG! If you report a convoy our planes will attack them???!!! I never seen that....wow,every day i learn something new about sh5!:rock:

[Fledermaus]

I reported lots of convoys, but never seen any attack happen, neither from the air nor sea. I guess the convoy must be really close to an airbase of axis then?

[keith_uk]

While in the Britsh east coast area where the wolf packs were supposed to be patroling, i've sent a good few convoy contact reports and followed the convoy for over 24 hours and nothing ever happened. So don't get your hopes up too much.

The convoys i have reported in the English channel are how far away from the German bases in France? 15 minutes if that?

The air attacks were good to watch, or at least they would have been if the British merchants didn't shoot every attacking German plane down. Also, the way aircraft maneuver in SH5, like SH4 is very unrealistic also. They dive in for a bombing run and then climb out to what would be a stall in real life, then most of the time get blown to nothing by AA fire.

The only aircraft that stand a chance in getting away without being shot down are the aircraft which drop their bombs in the first run and have no reason to hang around, like the FW Condors. The JU-188's never leave the area alive.

I've changed some settings in the CFG file for the AA fire and that helps a bit, but really it just takes longer for the German planes to be shot down, rather than not being shot down at all.

Keith.