How did the OSP(-DRM) service influence your opinion on Silent Hunter V?

[janh]

How did the OSP & DRM service influence your opinion on Silent Hunter V? (I.e. how would you have rated the game had it not had this DRM?) Did it make you less or more critical towards the product of the game?

Note that this does NOT ask for the absolute rating you give, but only whether OSP-DRM added/distracted to/from the quality of the product! And this poll does not test whether you bought SHV exactly because it had OSP, nor whether you won't buy it because of it. And the purpose of this poll is neither to criticize nor to praise OSP-DRM.

Both posters that own the game and have first hand experience, and posters that have build an opinion based on facts from the reviews, previews and the user comments here in subsim are welcome to vote.

I tried to construct it in a neutral fashion. I hope this is an intersting poll and gives a few insights on the effect the OSP-DRM has on buyers and potential buyers.

(sorry Neal if this counts as another DRM thread.)

[Sailor Steve]

As far as I'm concerned it's the only factor. Everything else can be dealt with or not, in its own time.

[Nordmann]

Personally, it's a small hassle, an inconvenience that I'd rather not have. Thus far I've yet to experience any problems, but that's not to say I like it.

But to judge the game solely based on the net requirement, to my mind that is short sighted. I will judge the game based on its content, and from what I've seen, it's quite good.

[kylania]

Personally, it's a small hassle, an inconvenience that I'd rather not have. Thus far I've yet to experience any problems, but that's not to say I like it.

But to judge the game solely based on the net requirement, to my mind that is short sighted. I will judge the game based on its content, and from what I've seen, it's quite good.

This. Though I have been unable to play the first two weekends, and I did lose a day of saves, but since the initial weekends the DRM has been quite unobtrusive, certainly not enough to explain the frothing of the anti-SH5 crowd any longer.

[Takeda Shingen]

Do we really need yet another poll to determine the public perception of DRM?

[Nordmann]

Do we really need yet another poll to determine the public perception of DRM?

Probably not, but then again, perception may well have changed since the last one was conducted. I think it's interesting to see where people currently stand, compared to a few weeks ago.

[Takeda Shingen]

Probably not, but then again, perception may well have changed since the last one was conducted. I think it's interesting to see where people currently stand, compared to a few weeks ago.

Oh, okay. I wasn't aware that we were a data collection agency. Besides, I think that after countless polls asking exactly the same question, we have a pretty good idea of where people stand.

[janh]

Do we really need yet another poll to determine the public perception of DRM?

The previous polls tested "DRM", but if you read my description above, this one gauges something else: How DRM "skews" the perception of the original product to be sold. It does not question whether you like or dislike DRM etc. That is entirely different.

I am testing a hypothesis here: Over the past weeks I got the impression that despite the shortcomings and bugs of SHV, it would have been received at least as well as SHIV or SHIII, maybe even better, but only for the DRM on top of that most people really saw it as a much worse product. I know this would be only a tiny comfort to the developers, but if true it would indicate that this kind of "OSP" customer binding does cause significant damage to reputation, rating and sales. Many people do not support it, but may accept it as an unavoidable thing, but for those who would like to see Ubisoft change it policy, this could produce at least a result significant for this community of subsim fans. And maybe this would even be representative of a general customer basis.

[Nordmann]

Oh, okay. I wasn't aware that we were a data collection agency. Besides, I think that after countless polls asking exactly the same question, we have a pretty good idea of where people stand.

Well, if you want to split hairs, technically you are. All files, posts, pictures etc can be classed as data, collected into one place, here. ;)

[Takeda Shingen]

The previous polls tested "DRM", but if you read my description above, this one gauges something else: How DRM "skews" the perception of the original product to be sold. It does not question whether you like or dislike DRM etc. That is entirely different.

I am testing a hypothesis here: Over the past weeks I got the impression that despite the shortcomings and bugs of SHV, it would have been received at least as well as SHIV or SHIII, maybe even better, but only for the DRM on top of that most people really saw it as a much worse product that it perhaps would be without the OSP-DRM. I know this would be only a tiny comfort to the developers, but if true it would indicate that this kind of "OSP" customer binding does cause significant damage to reputation, rating and sales.

Then what are your antecedent and threshold? A hypothesis must originate with a given, not an impression. Also, what will be your accepted margin of statistical error?

[Takeda Shingen]

Well, if you want to split hairs, technically you are. All files, posts, pictures etc can be classed as data, collected into one place, here. ;)

Polemics. We're talking about systematic data collection.

[Brag]

The game might be salvaged without OSP. OSP floats like Mafia cement shoes.:down:

[janh]

Then what are your antecedent and threshold? A hypothesis must originate with a given, not an impression. Also, what will be your accepted margin of statistical error?

As said, my hypothesis is based on the impression that I got over the past weeks here. And a hypothesis does not have to be based on "a given", but can also be an idea etc you want to test. And for your 2nd question: statistical errors will likely be large, but this will nonetheless give you a general idea where the answer is going.
As you stated, this site does not perform systematical data gathering. But since at least one person from Ubisoft Romania visits this forum regulary, I hope that this "general idea" gets conveyed. If you wanted to do this poll in a professional manner, it wouldn't be possible here anyway as you can only have a single question per poll. You'd need to set up a combination of questions, that also cross-check the given answers on the crucial test, and give further details that can help to eliminate "false samples".

[Takeda Shingen]

As said, my hypothesis is based on the impression that I got over the past weeks here. And a hypothesis does not have to be based on "a given", but can also be an idea etc you want to test. And for your 2nd question: statistical errors will likely be large, but this will nonetheless give you a general idea where the answer is going.
As you stated, this site does not perform systematical data gathering. But since at least one person from Ubisoft Romania visits this forum regulary, I hope that this "general idea" gets conveyed. If you wanted to do this poll in a professional manner, it wouldn't be possible here anyway as you can only have a single question per poll. You'd need to set up a combination of questions, that also cross-check the given answers on the crucial test, and give further details that can help to eliminate "false samples".

Really, I don't want to sidetrack this, and I'll go away after this, unless there is some sort form of fisticuffs, and then I'll be back in official form. Still, it is worth noting that every hypothesis is postulated by the following statement: Given 'X', then 'Y'; where 'X' is known and proven, and 'Y' is that which is yet to be proven. It's been that way since Socrates.

[janh]

Really, I don't want to sidetrack this, and I'll go away after this, unless there is some sort form of fisticuffs, and then I'll be back in official form. Still, it is worth noting that every hypothesis is postulated by the following statement: Given 'X', then 'Y'; where 'X' is known and proven, and 'Y' is that which is yet to be proven. It's been that way since Socrates.

Well, no worries about sidetracking. It is a fun discussion. Of course I can reformulate my hypothesis in this way, too:

Given that "SHV" has OSP and a with it associated DRM, then I suspect that this leads to a significantly more negative reception of the game and even small issues induce buyers and potential buyers to criticize it much harsher than they would have without. Does this sound better now?

[TwistedFemur]

IMO only thing SH5 has going for it is the graphics

[SteamWake]

My biggest gripe is that on occasion I want to play but cant through no fault of my own. Even if that is only a few moments its an inconvienience I should not have to endure.

My other gripe is the save game feature which as it turns out can lead to the loss of a good deal of progress.

The bugs and interface at launch were nearly laughable however the modders were quick to the rescue.

There is allegedly a patch in the works to addresses alot of my major gripes (drm aside) so I feel hopefull and confident the title is going to improve dramatically.

[Nisgeis]

How did the OSP & DRM service influence your opinion on Silent Hunter V? (I.e. how would you have rated the game had it not had this DRM?) Did it make you less or more critical towards the product of the game?

This is a pointless exercise. What insight will you gain into the mind of the player (as opposed to the mind of the rampant bitcher)? Your whole rating system is quite flawed. You ask the question 'How would you have rated the game if it had not been for DRM' yet your options are 'it's a small hassle, but not a big inconvenience' how on Earth is that a rating for a game? I think your rating system is more aimed directly at the DRM system. But you claim that the poll is not about DRM, but how can it not be?

How will you know what I think of the game, even after the DRM system's evils have been taken into account? If I rated the 'DRM System' 'a small hassle' how will you know what I think of the game - OK, so the DRM system is a small hassle, but what do I think of the game - what is the impact the DRM system had on my opinion of the game? You don't know, so this poll is worthless and just another bash the DRM thread (and that's like soooo last month). There's not even a decent car anaology.

I mean come on 'it's a big hassle, and makes me look at any issues of the game even more critical' - OK, so it makes me look even more critical at the game, but even after looking even more critical, what is my impression of the game? You still don't know, so there is no worth in this thread at all.

[mcarlsonus]

I've had quite a few disconnects, but they're of short duration and havent' been nearly as annoying as such things as aircraft that won't attack, but serve mainly as game-interrupting pests. My primary concerns with this method of DRM surround the issue of privacy and what information Ubi's collecting in the process of forcing one to stay connected to them at all times when using their software.

[janh]

...how on Earth is that a rating for a game? I think your rating system is more aimed directly at the DRM system. But you claim that the poll is not about DRM, but how can it not be?
...
I mean come on 'it's a big hassle, ...' - OK, so it makes me look even more critical at the game, but even after looking even more critical, what is my impression of the game? You still don't know, so there is no worth in this thread at all.

It doesn't ask how you rate the game, as you already correctly pointed out. It only asks how the OSP has influenced how you view the game, i.e. in relative terms. In this sense you would answer how the benefits of OSP add or detract from the game itself. But I don't ask you to rate the DRM, but the whole OSP-DRM with its potential benefits or drawbacks. As you may know there are people who like the unlimited installs and save game synchronization features, which I would expect to vote in the positive scale here if it worth something to them.

You don't know, so this poll is worthless and just another bash the DRM thread (and that's like soooo last month). There's not even a decent car anaology.

Well, its not, but your are entitled to your opinion...

[SteamWake]

what information Ubi's collecting in the process of forcing one to stay connected to them at all times when using their software.

Yes thank you I overlooked that in my rant. :salute:

[Nisgeis]

It doesn't ask how you rate the game, as you already correctly pointed out. It only asks how the OSP has influenced how you view the game, i.e. in relative terms. In this sense you would answer how the benefits of OSP add or detract from the game itself. But I don't ask you to rate the DRM, but the whole OSP-DRM with its potential benefits or drawbacks. As you may know there are people who like the unlimited installs and save game synchronization features, which I would expect to vote in the positive scale here if it worth something to them.



Well, its not, but your are entitled to your opinion...

SIGH... OK, so what you are REALLY asking is whether DRM had a negative or a positive effect on your perception of the game and you initial question of 'how would you have rated the game had it not had this DRM?' is a non question. E.G. This is another thread about whether people like DRM or not.

You are trying to rationalise this as not being about DRM, by saying that you are trying to conduct testing on how people would have reacted to the game, had it not been for the DRM. E.G, without DRM, they would have liked the game more, or they like the game more with DRM... so this is a definately a vote about DRM and not the game. You can't tell me how much I like the game now, even with the DRM, you can only tell me my view based on what I think of the DRM... so... this is a DRM approval thread. Nothing more, nothing less.

[janh]

SIGH... OK, so what you are REALLY asking is whether DRM had a negative or a positive effect on your perception of the game and you initial question of 'how would you have rated the game had it not had this DRM?' is a non question. E.G. This is another thread about whether people like DRM or not.

As said, it is not about DRM, it is about the OSP-DRM combo if at all. And again I don't ask whether you like or hate it. I ask whether (and how it) influenced your perception of SHV. If you didn't care, you'd see SHV in neutral light. If you dont like the DRM, but find the OSP service a good additon, then maybe it would be a +1 for you. But maybe you don't care about the OSP, and have issues with the DRM, or you don't care about the DRM, but your savegame synchronization feature is bugged, then you might be in the -1 category. I hope these examples show you that you cannot analyze this poll with DRM in mind. But you might get an idea whether Ubisofts new concept has lead to better or worse recepetion of SHV amongst the subsim members.

EDIT: Nisgeis, I give you one thing. Apparently it is almost impossible to get a neutral discussion/answer/poll on any question that only touches DRM in any way. As stated initially, I aimed to set up a neutral poll, which does neither ask voters to rate SHV per se, nor the OSP-DRM concept itself. The whole topic is just burning hot, and your expectation is obviously not really surprising that anything mentioning DRM likely is just to criticize it. In a way, that is already an answer to my original question: anything touching DRM induced "violent", negative responses....

[Nisgeis]

And again I don't ask whether you like or hate it. I ask whether (and how it) influenced your perception of SHV.

If you like it, it will reflect positively, if you don't it won't.

But again... the issue here is that you do not know what people's perceptions of SH5 are. You only know whether DRM/OSP affected their view positively or negatively. You know NOTHING about their views on the game, so the only information you are coillecting is DRM related, not game enjoyment related. So therefore, this is a poll solely about DRM/OSP approval.

I don't see how you can seriously say that this is a poll about whether Ubisoft's new concept (DRM/OSP) has lead to a better or worse perception of the game, without directly inferring that DRM/OSP was responsible for that change in perception.

[The General]

Please!? DRM is the least of SH5's problems! DRM is a non-issue for anybody who can afford a Broadband connection. There are about 100 bugs that I would like to see fixed before worrying about bloody Digital Rights Management! :-?

[janh]

If you like it, it will reflect positively, if you don't it won't.

But again... the issue here is that you do not know what people's perceptions of SH5 are. You only know whether DRM/OSP affected their view positively or negatively. You know NOTHING about their views on the game, so the only information you are coillecting is DRM related, not game enjoyment related. So therefore, this is a poll solely about DRM/OSP approval.

I don't see how you can seriously say that this is a poll about whether Ubisoft's new concept (DRM/OSP) has lead to a better or worse perception of the game, without directly inferring that DRM/OSP was responsible for that change in perception.

"DRM/OSP approval" will influence the way people will criticize or praise SHV, that is probably what it comes down to. But, since the DRM is only for some an issue, and the OSP services have benefits well advertised by Ubi, I think it is worth to ask the question.

Maybe by now a lot of the oponents of DRM might have seen that it perhaps is not an issue at all and the OSP services are very useful? Maybe some of the ones who didn't care are by now annoyed by the OSP features, and or the DRM? Can you predict?

[Nisgeis]

Can you predict?

Yes, I can. The overall concensus will be that DRM/OSP has had a negative imapct on the game. The only rational view to draw from this is that DRM/OSP has had a detrimental effect on the game. The only rational conclusion to draw from this is that DRM/OSP is bad. The only conclusion that can be drawn from that is that this thread is about DRM/OSP and nothing else.

[Sailor Steve]

Please!? DRM is the least of SH5's problems! DRM is a non-issue for anybody who can afford a Broadband connection. There are about 100 bugs that I would like to see fixed before worrying about bloody Digital Rights Management! :-?
And there are a lot more people who could be working on that if "the least of SH5's problems" was gone. Or at least being able to complain about the bugs.

[janh]

Yes, I can. The overall concensus will be that DRM/OSP has had a negative imapct on the game. The only rational view to draw from this is that DRM/OSP has had a detrimental effect on the game. The only rational conclusion to draw from this is that DRM/OSP is bad. The only conclusion that can be drawn from that is that this thread is about DRM/OSP and nothing else.

Then let's see how your prediction matches the poll... I kind of miss the crude numbers in your prediction... As far as now, about 50% don't even care or see the OSP-DRM scheme as detrimental. But what is more significant, no one really sees any addition of value in the OSP services (even if you apply a huge statistical error bar...). I guess you just missed to mention that... ;-) I would have expected a few positive votes, though.

[Kptlt_Lynch]

I don't think the issue at hand is if we need another poll or not, or how it's justified.

Just vote, or don't.

L

[Der Teddy Bar]

This. Though I have been unable to play the first two weekends, and I did lose a day of saves, but since the initial weekends the DRM has been quite unobtrusive, certainly not enough to explain the frothing of the anti-SH5 crowd any longer.
That is all great while you can play and I certainly do not wish you any issues in being able to play when you want/can, but... It does not matter how reliable the Ubisoft online authentication is, indirectly the always online requirement will stop people from playing at the times they want/can.

I have moved since the tale of woe below, but I am sure many people are experiencing the same issues I did and while career wise we do not have to move and our house we are building should have the same ADSL broadband that I currently have, there is no guarantee. I live in Australia, 20 minutes outside Canberra, our national capital. But when it came to getting an internet connection that meant little. I had the choice of 1 ISP and the connection was wireless as the telephone lines were pair gain i.e. where the telco overloads the copper with services in lieu of actually installing adequate infrastructure which our national telco Telecom is infamous for.

Here I was having just arrived in our nations capital, all be it just outside, and I had to wait 7 weeks to get my internet connection.

7 weeks later all keen to surf the net and catch up on the world as I know it, but the very next day there is a slight issue. The internet is not available till 08.30 and this happens the next day and the next where the connection was only available starting from 07.30 to 09.00. Upon following this up with my ISP I find that the wireless towers do not have enough battery capacity to cope with the winter overcast days. This took 9 months to be rectified.

I was to find out that this was the least of my problems with this ISP. There were regular outages of 1-4 hours every 2-4 days and 4-12 hours every 2-3 weeks. The longest outage we had was 3 days. The network was so overloaded the 1500k connection would often be sub 400k.

As bad as this ISP was if it was not for this community oriented ISP I would have had to use a 56k dial service. Remember this is in Australia and a mere 20 minutes outside out national capital.

What of the 21 weeks (5.1 months) over 2.5 years I would not have been able to play because I was awaiting a new internet connection because we had to move due to work? This time does not count the extreme 7 weeks above!

Before dismissing peoples angst at UBI's DRM (which is not about stopping piracy but the 2nd hand market) consider that they may not be as fortunate as you and cannot play the games they purchased when ever they want/need.

Such as those "Australian gamers unable to play Settlers 7 due to DRM woes" (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=166750)

I doubt the anyone would accept this type of DRM on their books, even electronic or audio one?

If Ubi were selling books they would have the Public Library outlawed :nope:

[HKLE]

Hi folks

Just some comments on the general subject:

DRM killed my preorder before the publication of this game. Although I should not have the problems of our down under colleaques, I do not like the idea of having to pay for less quality and options in comparison to previous games - in the past, the standard for offline games simply was different, as you all know. So - the new concept might serve UBI, but at the time in March I did not see any advantage for us customers.

In the hindsight though, I might decide in a different way, if the quality of the product would have been ok.

But SH5 seems even to be worse or equal to SH2 in terms of gameplay (and this is the long time motivation factor for such a game - nothing is more boring than all the eyecandy after a few hours - with just a few freighter types and always the same dialoques with crew ...). Concerning the setup of options, I cannot choose different U-boat types (well - for the so called "role playing" concept of this game, one U-boat type may be enough), but what really is a show stopper for me, is the scripted and uniform campaign "system" - start only in 39, arcade style (and totally unrealistic) mission targets, no other options allowed.

This is something I vehemently argued against already back in the development stages of SH3 - at the time with success - so SH3 still is THE game for me (I do not mind the missing eye candy, if the game itself is ok).


UBI had other ideas with this game though. First - short playabilty seems to create better opportunities for addons (more U-boat types, another campaign, maybe another theater (again), missing items such more freighter types and so on). The - new type of - customer, UBI has in mind, seems to be of the short attention type - therefore the arcade approach. They can be milked better than the old crowd - get the 50 bucks fast and forget about it.

Apparently, the marketing concept was to get new customers while the old customer base certainly would buy EVERY new game, whatever quality it might be.

And I - as old customer - almost fell for this candy myself.

Another question for me is, why UBI obviously rushed this game to the market, when it was far from being complete. The main reason in my opinion was, that UBI wanted to test the new DRM scheme on a comparably small customer base - because it does not hurt so much, if something goes wrong.

So - the DRM discussion itself prevented me from buying a game, which I would have forgotten within a few months anyway - mainly because of poor gameplay and only a few rather boring options. (I still play SH3 and 4 a lot)

The campaign system - important as core to longer playabilty - is solidly in the hands of UBI and their uncertain promises. If the game does not create the ROI planned, bad luck for the existing customers. No further development. Even no promises to do so.

One of the main open items for UBI is the question, if this massive customer deception and the accompanying image loss does not fall back on future sales. I read an article, that at least at the moment, they had a very good sales success in markets, where there is traditionally a high piracy rate - like Russia. (I wonder, why Russian companies like 1C can live without such a DRM scheme ?). But this is now - and then ? I doubt, that the customers do not learn from such a lesson themselves.

Thanks to the DRM announcement, I did not spend my share on this massive customer betrayal. My personal conclusion of this lesson is, that I shall generally wait for some time, before buying a new game - no matter which publisher - and let the early buyer crowd have it.

[Corsair]

I can say the DRM did affect my perception of the game.
My gaming rig is not connected to internet, which means I did not buy the game and therefore I have no perception at all...:DL
Still very happy playing SH3 (NYGM 3.3 and Living SH3 v5) and sometimes SH4 for a change (RFB + RSRD) so I probably will have a perception in a year or so when DRM is off, game 10 euros and modders have solved the tons of bugs... (Like previous versions :cool:)

[SloppyMk27]

This is just my opinion -
If I buy a game that can be played single player and all the game content needed to play single player is on my machine from the store bought dvd, there should be no reason at all to require a fixed internet connection. I am willing to accept a one time activation process that requires internet, and updates can be posted on the SH5's website. I don't need the program to do that for me. I'll be willing to bet there's more than a ping and pong going between your machine and ubisoft's servers when you're playing sh5.:hmmm:

[alexradu89]

99 voters and no +1+2+3 votes :o Mwahahhahah! Take that Ubi! :arrgh!:

[Bilge_Rat]

I doubt very much you will find anyone who actually likes DRM.

[Kremmen]

Apparently, the marketing concept was to get new customers while the old customer base certainly would buy EVERY new game, whatever quality it might be.

And I - as old customer - almost fell for this candy myself.




Funny,I had the same thought.Did they count on the fact that the hardcore would rejoice at a new SH and buy it regardless and see them as guaranteed sales,then made a game to lure in the casual players ? :nope:
Was the decision to end the game in '43 so that casual players would not get slaughtered every time they put to sea after then and block up the Ubi forums with cries of 'the escorts know where I am as soon as I try to attack and I can't shoot anything' or 'aircraft blow me up as soon as I leave port'
I was so looking forward to SH5,even cancelled my WoW account last year because I had the Atlantic waiting once again,but some of the design features in the game did not appeal to me and then when the DRuM surfaced,well that I couldn't bear.
I've seen it on the shelves and man have I come close,but alas,not this time old friend.Or maybe that should be 'not yet old friend...not yet',we'll see.


This is in no way intended to offend or insult people who have bought the game but merely to try and get a grip on Ubi's reasoning behind some of their decisions.
If you have the game and are enjoying it...more power to ya :up:

[Adriatico]

AC2 "resolved" DRM last weekend... as it was predictable:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7lzeE21Mhg&annotation_id=annotation_257878&feature=iv

It is too late for this poll... due to fact that most of DRM opposition members are not visiting this forum anymore... try voting in SH3 and SH4... or Flaming Cliffs 2.0 forum.

[janh]

I doubt very much you will find anyone who actually likes DRM.

Probably not, but that doesn't mean that maybe some people wouldn't like the features OSP brings (savegame sync, etc). That was how Ubisoft tried to sell the complete "package" with DRM. But my question is still a bit bigger picture than that. Because it may be possible that you hate DRM, or love the OSP, and still just would rate the game as the game.

However, as it seems, I would conclude from this crude poll that Silent Hunter V is actually a much better game than we make it by harsh criticizm. Which is so harsh because the OSP-DRM does obviously not add any function/feature that any of the voters would have paid a penny for, but for 2/3 is anything between a small inconvenience to a problem.
It is sad, but maybe SHV is really worth much more than is now left of it. And maybe the developers really did a decent job with the new dynamic campaign, the RPG elements, wolfpacks etc, though some of them might have needed a couple more month to bring to fruition. But with the OSP binding, I would say it doesn't matter what they try to sell, the judgement is basically already predefined for 50% of the people...

Now, I would say this is an interesting poll.

[Bilge_Rat]

... I would conclude from this crude poll that Silent Hunter V is actually a much better game than we make it by harsh criticizm....

That is what I and many other hardcore subsimmers have been saying for the past month. We would not be spending so much time on this game if we did not see and appreciate its potential. I am glad to see you are finally realizing the truth.:ping:

[danurve]

I would gladly pay the retail for this game, bugs and all for whatever minor percentage that is worth to help support the game / ubi's support for shv.
But untill drm is out of the picture they can pack sand.

[severniae]

I was initially opposed to the whole thing. And when I first got the game my internet was being all crappy and I had lots of connection issues thus making the game difficult to play.

However, now my internet is fixed to be honest I can't say that I have a problem with the DRM. I don't use the synchronised saved games at all, so don't have any problems loading the game, and since the internet has been fixed I've not had a single connection interruption problem.

So whilst I'm not a big fan of the idea, it doesn't really affect my game play at all, so doesn't bother me any more.

To be perfectly honest I'm getting really...really fed up of all the moaners about SH5 and the DRM, if they don't like it, then fine, don't buy or play it, it doesn't bother me. Its a good game in my opinion, sure it has bugs, but then so did SH4 when it first came out. I seem to remember it only really felt finished post 1.4, and UBI do have a history of keeping up to date with the patches, I've not seen them abandon any game yet. So, so far, the OSP doesn't really bother my opinion at-all!

[ddrgn]

Ship reflections on the water seen for miles bothers me more than DRM. Transparent waves bother me more than DRM. As a matter of fact there is a lot more concerns tha bother me than DRM. I never even notice it. The old men belly aching over and over about this are just getting tiresome. This is how PC games will be for now on, get used to it or buy yourself a console. Specifically to those with extremely high post counts complaining about DRM? Does that even make sense, you have over 20k posts? You did this all offline?

[OakGroove]

"It" did not affect the way i rate the game. The state SH5 is in, its conceptional flaws - is already enough of an deterrant to me, at least for now. With "Uplay" added to the mix, a purchase is out of question.

[Sailor Steve]

Don't bother to read all the threads? I ask this since the "20,000 posts" comment could only be aimed at me (the only other is Jimbuna, and he's never said a thing).

Okay, one piece at a time.

Ship reflections on the water seen for miles bothers me more than DRM. Transparent waves bother me more than DRM. As a matter of fact there is a lot more concerns tha bother me than DRM. I never even notice it.
You wouldn't notice it if you couldn't play the game either.

The old men belly aching over and over about this are just getting tiresome.
Now we play the 'old' card? You think I asked for this to happen?:rotfl2:

This is how PC games will be for now on, get used to it or buy yourself a console.
Why? And why is that an answer? If they drop the DRM will you still throw that at me? Honestly, why should it necessarily be that way?

Specifically to those with extremely high post counts complaining about DRM? Does that even make sense, you have over 20k posts?
Go on, say it: "Sailor Steve, This Means You!" Who else fits that description? The funny part is, I've said a few times that I can't play because of it, but I've never gone into a bunch of other threads trashing those who do. I want to see the game fixed. In fact I've plainly said that I want to be a part of the fixing it. But they won't let me.

You did this all offline?
I guess you never paid attention to the part where I mention that when barely had enough money to pay the rent and utilities, and ate by hitting the free food banks, the first thing to go was the internet connection, because, whether you realize it or not, it is a luxury. I "did all this" by going to the local library, which is where I am right now. Most of my posts were made during the year-and-a-half I was homeless, which I am again right now. Obviously I'm not playing anything these days, but I can still work on my Ship Names collection, because it's small enough to fit on my flash drive.

I just got my tax refund (yes, I do get work now and again). I now have a dilemma - buy a cheap laptop so I can get online anytime I want, and maybe even play SH3, or set it aside so I can attend this year's Subsim Meet. Guess which one wins? Why? Because I can get online at the library, I love the games but I love research more, and I can do that without the laptop, and mostly because I love meeting people I've talked to online, and that comes first.

So you can talk down to people who want to play the game but aren't netbabies, or can't get reception when they travel, or vacation in remote places (gee, I've said that all before, haven't I?), but you need to do one thing, and that's explain exactly why I should get used to "the way things will be from now on", and you really need to tell everybody why this is a good thing.

Just because some company feels the need to force the buyer to do things a certain way doesn't make it right. Do you disagree?

[janh]

That is what I and many other hardcore subsimmers have been saying for the past month. We would not be spending so much time on this game if we did not see and appreciate its potential. I am glad to see you are finally realizing the truth.:ping:

I made a couple of posts in the past to that effect, suggesting that only time will tell whether SHV has truly the potential that some people attribute to it. Yet I couldn't but wonder why the vast majority, and worst of all lately also some of the people that initially were strongly pro-SHV, turned so vehemently against it. But here surely is one of the important reasons, my impression did not fail me. However, it is still better to half this half-scientific poll to support this argument, than to rely on your "believe" of what other consider the truth...

The sad thing is that likely neither Ubi will realize the impact of this a problem for all a of their affected PC franchise so quickly and remove it, nor will it anymore help the titles that already sunk with it... It seems more that they'll push it now through, no matter how many good games will suffer the same fate. They'll probably again attribute lack of commercial success to the games being niche products lacking customership, or piracy. And then it will become a question whether even patching further won't be worth the investment.

[Bilge_Rat]

Janh, it depends how you want to interpret the numbers, about 950 people viewed this thread and 65+ voted that it was a major hassle. Does not look like people are worked up enough over DRM to even bother to vote in an anonymous poll.

On the other hand, SH5 has only been released for a month and if I go look in the mods section right now, I see Heretic's crew mod has been viewed by almost 30,000 people and downloaded over 5,000 times. Many other mods have 3-4,000 downloads.

It sure looks like people are playing SH5..:arrgh!:

[Sailor Steve]

There may be a few who, like me, download all the mods to keep for when they do own the game, but mostly your numbers tell a fairly conclusive story.

[Nisgeis]

Then let's see how your prediction matches the poll... I kind of miss the crude numbers in your prediction... As far as now, about 50% don't even care or see the OSP-DRM scheme as detrimental. But what is more significant, no one really sees any addition of value in the OSP services (even if you apply a huge statistical error bar...). I guess you just missed to mention that... ;-) I would have expected a few positive votes, though.

Well, there weren't any numbers, but I did say that the overall concensus would be that DRM has had a negative impact on the game as DRM was bad. So far, the vote is 12% no difference, 88% negative and 0% positive. I didn't think that anyone would vote positively for DRM, unless somehow Trenken found his way in here, in which case you would have had one vote for +3, but I think it's safe to say that Trenken is a statistical anomally. There's really nothing about the OSP that is beneficial - I don't actually know anyone that would think that playing the same saved games on different PCs was even an issue that would arise.

[Ablemaster]

The poll is no surprise to anyone, guess we all knew the results, personally though im with the majority here and against drm, but i was always going to buy it anyway. Hopefully the future will reflect the customer's preference and we can rid ourselfs of this ball and chain, and just get on with an excellent game and simulation, the way it was truly intended to be. We live in hope.

[gutted]

If it were any other game, i wouldn't have bought it. But, seeing as how im a sim nut... this is my crack. And i haves to have my crack! :D

If this is the future of PC gaming... i'll be buying alot less games. .ie Only the ones I absolutely have to have. I can't condone this type of customer abuse. But at the same time, im not giving up playing games.. so i just wont be making any impulse purchases anymore.

[Hanomag]

Im going down with all hands... glub glub :o

[janh]

On the other hand, SH5 has only been released for a month and if I go look in the mods section right now, I see Heretic's crew mod has been viewed by almost 30,000 people and downloaded over 5,000 times. Many other mods have 3-4,000 downloads.

Yeah, the turnout could be much better, unfortunately. 950+ hits doesn't mean 950 individual visitors, since at least 30 of those hits must be mine.
Similarly taking a two weeks old thread with 78 posts and 30.000 hits is not really telling. But I am surprised there had been 5000 downloads. That would be a nice number of voters, even though the trend would likely just continue. A small comfort for the devs, but at least it makes the point more clearly now.

Just out of curiosity, how many members does subsim have? And do the admins have an idea how many of those member visit the forums regularly?

[Sailor Steve]

Threads: 81,694, Posts: 1,216,058, Captains: 47,512, Captains visited in the last 24 hours: 16,532

Just go to the Radio Room main page and scroll to the bottom.:sunny:

There used to be a section there that told how many captains and how many 'stowaways' were on the site at any given time. Usually around 200 captains and close to 1000 unregistered visitors.

[KL-alfman]

It sure looks like people are playing SH5..:arrgh!:


one may think that, better said hope that.
about not taking part in the poll:
a lot of members don't bother to visit the SH5-board anymore since the announcement of U-play necessarity.

all the polls in the past and the recent one too show only that about 2thirds of the SubSim-community will not buy/play/mod SH5 as long as this "OSP" is needed.

sales tell how many people play SH5.
and I can't estimate if they are "good" enough for UBI.

[janh]

Threads: 81,694, Posts: 1,216,058, Captains: 47,512, Captains visited in the last 24 hours: 16,532
Just go to the Radio Room main page and scroll to the bottom.:sunny:
There used to be a section there that told how many captains and how many 'stowaways' were on the site at any given time. Usually around 200 captains and close to 1000 unregistered visitors.

Those are really impressive numbers. I didn't realize that subsim has such a huge member basis. Even if only 30% of those "captains" do actually visit the SH series part of the forum, then this already is a very significant percentage of the customers that bought any SH(X). Now, I would bet that the major discussions and moods going at subsim will make it into the Ubisoft headquarters. I can't image they'd ignore such a "fan site".

[Y4L]

In my opinion, nobody should really be complaining about the DRM (Except a few very rare cases).

If you manage to post on here, you have an internet connection, if you have an internet connection then the DRM does not affect you in any way.

[Arclight]

Has no effect on my rating of the game, consider it a separate issue.

Question doesn't seem to match with the possible answers. :hmmm:

[theluckyone17]

In my opinion, nobody should really be complaining about the DRM (Except a few very rare cases).

If you manage to post on here, you have an internet connection, if you have an internet connection then the DRM does not affect you in any way.

Gotta disagree with you there... talk to all those people in the first couple weeks when the Ubisoft servers went down (for whatever reason).

"Permanent Internet Connection Required" does not mean that you need a constant 'net connection. It means you need a constant connection to Ubisoft's servers, which is something that you cannot control (unless you're an Ubisoft exec, at which point me and you need to have a little talk).

Then there's Sailor Steve's case... retired, fixed income, no 'net access at home, but at his local library. Then there's the folks on dial-up or spotty DSL access. I've also been thinking about picking up a laptop so I can play SH3 while I'm on the road... ten years from now, will I be saying that about SH5?

Granted, those cases are relatively small in number. Obviously not enough to bother Ubisoft. However, a small number isn't zero.

[Y4L]

As you said, those cases are a very small number.

Ubisoft is a business, they aim to make a profit (By making some good games), catering to that minuscule market is just not something that's very reasonable to expect from them.

But all that aside, just wait a few months, most games just remove their DRM after a few months.

[Arclight]

There are other ways to protect your digital property. OSP was unnecessary. :-?

[DVAFP]

makes it a bitch to play when on your laptop when traveling

[NefariousKoel]

In my opinion, nobody should really be complaining about the DRM (Except a few very rare cases).

If you manage to post on here, you have an internet connection, if you have an internet connection then the DRM does not affect you in any way.

:hmmm:
:shifty:

:/\\chop

[IanC]

In my opinion, nobody should really be complaining about the DRM (Except a few very rare cases).

If you manage to post on here, you have an internet connection, if you have an internet connection then the DRM does not affect you in any way.

Excuse me, I have internet connection but it's not good enough for DRM.

[Onkel Neal]

We already have many threads to express disatisfaction over the copy protection.