VIIb or VIIc?

[ALOTEF]

Hey guys.
The thread name is pretty self-explanatory.
I have reached 1941 in my career, but have to make a decision. Upgrade to the VIIc, or keep to the VIIb?

VIIb.
Pros: Faster dive times, speed, and lighter weight.
Cons: Not as many attachments. (Conning towers, Guns etc.)

VIIc:
Pros: Lots of attachments...
Cons: Slower dive times, less speed, and heavier.

So, what do you think?
Regards,
Mike.

[KL-alfman]

the VIIC has a better crush-depth too, I guess.

[Tom]

I thought the VIIc dived faster than the VIIb. 27 secs for the VIIc and 30 secs for the VIIb, if I recall correctly. This, I think, is the most important difference between the two. Evasion is generally a better option against aircraft than shooting back at them, especially later in the war, so the better late game flak armament of the VIIc isn't really that important.

Crush depths are the same I think, at least the factory test depth is 150 m.

In any case, the differences are minimal.

[Paul Riley]

Personally I would favour speed and better dive times,so if your stats for each UBoat are correct then the VIIB would be the better choice.If however you like the extra armament then the VIIC would be your choice.
In a nutshell,performance saves lives,especially against severe air threats.

How does the VIIC 41 compare to the above stats?

EDIT: I thought the VIIC had better performance and dive times?

[Paul Riley]

Some useful info

Type VIIB http://www.uboat.net/types/viib.htm
Type VIIC http://www.uboat.net/types/viic.htm
Type VIIC/41 http://www.uboat.net/types/viic-41.htm

[sergei]

Or save the renown for when the VIIC/41 becomes available.
That can dive deeper. :DL

[Paul Riley]

Or save the renown for when the VIIC/41 becomes available.
That can dive deeper. :DL

Apparently by an extra 50m! :up:
If that is the case and I have managed to reach 220m in my VIIB then that pushes the limit to almost 300m!

[STEED]

I would go with VII/B, crash dive faster and to hell with the machine guns I'm not messing with angry Ailed planes.

[Paul Riley]

I would go with VII/B, crash dive faster and to hell with the machine guns I'm not messing with angry Ailed planes.

Me neither,I have had to disinfect the conning tower many times in the past caused by badly torn up watch crew from plane gunfire :o:timeout:
Stay alert,get down fast,stay down for about 1 hr or so,quick listen on the hydrophone,all round scan on both scopes at normal and high magnification,breach at high speed,pray it doesnt happen again...thats my motto.

[Reinhard Dietz]

I vaguely recall some mention that stock SHIII had certain aspects of the differences between the Type VII (B, C, C/41) boats wrong and that there was an easy fix out there somewhere.

Since I've gotten bombed a bunch of times in April 1940, I could use a faster-diving boat, and I wanted to make sure that the (historical?) faster diving of the VIIC was accurately represented before I went and got one. (It's my understanding that the VIIC/41 is most accurately represented by a mod of which I know nothing; is that right?)

Any information's appreciated, since I can't count on Hurricanes to keep crashing while running in.

[Brag]

Go for VIIB, save renown to get a IX a bit later :DL

[krashkart]

I would go with VII/B, crash dive faster and to hell with the machine guns I'm not messing with angry Ailed planes.

Those darn B-24's. I've lost a few crew and conning towers to them.

Go with what works best for you, but later in the war you will probably be spending less time on the surface. My current campaign is in early 1943, based in Brest. Daylight is no fun anymore when you're in areas covered by air patrols. I spend most days submerged, and most nights on the surface with my finger close to the "C" key. :dead:

Uboat crews must have had iron cahones I tells ya. :o

[Jimbuna]

VIIC....more upgrades, then 'tweak' the DeltaRenown and get an IX asap http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/whistle.gif

[Paul Riley]

Uboat crews must have had iron cahones I tells ya. :o

I heard a myth once that their *ahem* balls (thats not swearing is it?) were made from old depth charge casings,with the charges still intact! :o:o

[ALOTEF]

'Fire down below!'
:rotfl2:

[Jimbuna]

Great balls of fire :o

[jumpy]

I've always sailed in the VIIB, slightly faster surface/dive and submerged speeds and I'm rather fond of my deck gun too.

[Chisum]

Take the VII/C and increase your renow manually in the sh3Commander's cfg files.
It's not cheat because in real, BdU never asked some renow to give you a new submarine.
:arrgh!:

[krashkart]

I heard a myth once that their *ahem* balls (thats not swearing is it?) were made from old depth charge casings,with the charges still intact! :o:o

:hmmm:

Uboot Crew Placards:

"NO KICKING"

"NO STEP"

http://ian-albert.com/misc/hazmat/4-dangerous-when-wet-th.gif

http://ian-albert.com/misc/hazmat/6-inhalation-hazard-th.gif

Maybe that last one was pushing it a bit. :D


At this rate I'm bound to be banned in no time. :nope:

[pickinthebanjo]

How about VIIC vs VIIc/41? I was thinkin about switching subs but at the moment it still has to be a VII so I can use the New interiors mod

[Jimbuna]

In the simplest form.....deeper diving but no deck gun.

[Reinhard Dietz]

Can I get an answer for the stock campaign regarding the performance of the VIIB versus the VIIC? Data for these two per reality or GWX doesn't help me at the moment.

Much thanks.

[KL-alfman]

Can I get an answer for the stock campaign regarding the performance of the VIIB versus the VIIC? Data for these two per reality or GWX doesn't help me at the moment.

Much thanks.


can't help you much.
played stock a long time ago.
did love the VIIB and played a lot of time with her.
but I remember typeC had more advantages in upgrades (Funkmess andsoon). the only difference to the type C/41 is that the latter has a better crush-depth, I guesstimate.

[Jimbuna]

Can I get an answer for the stock campaign regarding the performance of the VIIB versus the VIIC? Data for these two per reality or GWX doesn't help me at the moment.

Much thanks.

There is little too differentiate the two other than the 3 seconds or so extra time to dive in the VIIC and the maximum depth (with SH3 commander this is irrelevant) and the xtra upgrades for the VIIC.

[Reinhard Dietz]

There is little too differentiate the two other than the 3 seconds or so extra time to dive in the VIIC and the maximum depth (with SH3 commander this is irrelevant) and the xtra upgrades for the VIIC.
Three seconds' dive time would have been useful in my last patrol. When you say that SH3C makes the max depth irrelevant, why's that?

[Jimbuna]

Three seconds' dive time would have been useful in my last patrol. When you say that SH3C makes the max depth irrelevant, why's that?

Your able to set Commander to randomise U-boat crush depth.

[Reinhard Dietz]

Ah, that. Yeah, I stay away from that option. I want my boats performing to factory specs and beyond. :D

You've helped me make my decision---those three seconds will help when the commander makes mistakes or gets overly aggressive. 'preciate it!

[Convycmg]

1st post, and it was this one that pursuaded me to register as I'm now at the stage in my own career where I can now opt for a VIII/c.

So far the only substancial upgrade I've made to my VIII/b after starting the war with 7th Flotilla is to add a double-barrel flak gun (twice the fun in those last moments before you get bombed), but besides the flak armament, is there a way of finding out which other upgrades (such as sonar-proof coating, radar signal detector, schnorkel, etc) are available for the VIII/c but are for the other?

Many thanks!

[pickinthebanjo]

1st post, and it was this one that pursuaded me to register as I'm now at the stage in my own career where I can now opt for a VIII/c.

So far the only substancial upgrade I've made to my VIII/b after starting the war with 7th Flotilla is to add a double-barrel flak gun (twice the fun in those last moments before you get bombed), but besides the flak armament, is there a way of finding out which other upgrades (such as sonar-proof coating, radar signal detector, schnorkel, etc) are available for the VIII/c but are for the other?

Many thanks!

yeah there are afew. The easiest (as it's in the game) is when your in base. Go to where you upgrade your boat, and in the bottom left corner of the screen you should see a question mark(I think) that should be it.

another is to google SH3 tech tree, I look it up all the time (can't ever remember the names of those torpedoes)

[Paul Riley]

Ah, that. Yeah, I stay away from that option. I want my boats performing to factory specs and beyond. :D


Ideally me too,I only enable random crush depth to simulate the possibility of manufacturing errors,which probably would be very rare,at least during the first half of the conflict,later on manufacturing speed was more important than quality.
Who in their right mind would even question German quality and efficiency anyway? :rock:

[krashkart]

yeah there are afew. The easiest (as it's in the game) is when your in base. Go to where you upgrade your boat, and in the bottom left corner of the screen you should see a question mark(I think) that should be it.

another is to google SH3 tech tree, I look it up all the time (can't ever remember the names of those torpedoes)

I believe Carnovaro's Document Collection contains a copy of that tech tree you mention. You can find it in the Downloads section: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1487.

The tech tree is located in the Carnovaro's Document Collection\Chapter 1 - Sheets\Upgrades Chart\ directory.

(twice the fun in those last moments before you get bombed)

:rotfl2:

Welcome aboard Subsim, Convycmg! :salute:

[Iranon]

Who in their right mind would even question German quality and efficiency anyway? :rock:

During WW2? Many people. 'Awesome design, shoddy build quality' tended to be the norm. To make things worse, the 'awesome' often got in the way of efficiency.

The type XXI is a good example of this. While the design was considerably ahead of its time, too many concessions had be made to make it mass-producable in inland facilities hopefully out of reach of allied bombers. The modular build process proved to be beyond the ability of companies who had nothing to do with ships before.

In the end, over 100 were built and they never sank anything because only a handful were combat-worthy by the end of the war. Considering more conventional production could have seen them in action from 1943 on, this is a lot of wasted potential.

[Jimbuna]

1st post, and it was this one that pursuaded me to register as I'm now at the stage in my own career where I can now opt for a VIII/c.

So far the only substancial upgrade I've made to my VIII/b after starting the war with 7th Flotilla is to add a double-barrel flak gun (twice the fun in those last moments before you get bombed), but besides the flak armament, is there a way of finding out which other upgrades (such as sonar-proof coating, radar signal detector, schnorkel, etc) are available for the VIII/c but are for the other?

Many thanks!

Welcome aboard http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/welcome.gif

[Paul Riley]

During WW2? Many people. 'Awesome design, shoddy build quality' tended to be the norm. To make things worse, the 'awesome' often got in the way of efficiency.

The type XXI is a good example of this. While the design was considerably ahead of its time, too many concessions had be made to make it mass-producable in inland facilities hopefully out of reach of allied bombers. The modular build process proved to be beyond the ability of companies who had nothing to do with ships before.

In the end, over 100 were built and they never sank anything because only a handful were combat-worthy by the end of the war. Considering more conventional production could have seen them in action from 1943 on, this is a lot of wasted potential.

You are 100% right,fantastic staggering designs,crippled by a war they were slowly losing and the onset of running out of time.The same can be said for other revolutionary 'wonder weapons' the Germans were designing,like supersonic orbital bombers.I saw a documentary once about these weapons and I was blown away,and all of this was concieved in the 40s too...remarkable! :o

[geosub1978]

The fact that the XXIs didn't see action earlier is very suspicious to me. I have visited both the VIIC in Kiel and the XXI in Wielhelmshaven. There is no comparison between them. The XXI is like a tough modern conventional submarine.

[gmuno]

They didn't see an earlier action because they were first designed for a different engine layout. If you look at uboat.net for the XVIII, you see what took em so long. They should get Walther-turbines first but problems with manufactoring and maintainance of thoses engines pushed the project off until it was decided to give them conventional engines instead (and to rename the type). Another hurray for us slow working german bureaucrats... :D

[pickinthebanjo]

On the topic of the XXI here is something designed of that design:
http://www.projectboats.com/whiskeysub.html
"The initial design was developed in the early 1940s as a sea-going follow on to the S-class submarine. As a result of war experience and the capture of German technology at the end of the war, the Soviets issued a new design requirement in 1946. The revised design was influenced by the German Type XXI submarine and was developed by the Lazurit Design Bureau based in Gorkiy."

And for any of you rich people if you got a half a mil. laying around you may feel like owning this lol

[Immelman]

To get back on track my personal fav to sail with is definitely the VIIB.

As designed by the game its only drawback being the 3 seconds longer diving time. You will not have as many flak true but I try to avoid air combat to begin with.

Advantages are a lower profile in the water makes it harder to detect. Faster speed both on and under water make it ideal. More mileage per battery recharge since you move faster under water. (Ahead 1/3 VIIB 5kts VIIC 4kts. VIIB = more mileage)

Note: in real life I would go for the VIIC as it had many more advantages that are not represent in the game. (see Uboat.net)

[Reinhard Dietz]

Immelman, thanks for the observations. I was all set to get a VIIC at the end of my current patrol, but sounds like I'll stick with the VIIB for at least one or two more patrols. I'd love to have more torpedoes and that faster diving time is really great but the stats you list are probably decisive.

Once the countermeasures launchers come along, I'll definitely be in a boat that allows them.

[Snestorm]

Pros:

VIIC:
Faster dive time.
Deeper max depth.
More flak configurations.
More range.

VIIB:
Slightly faster, both surfaced and submerged.
Smaller conning tower siloette.

Personel experience:
The VIIC gets hung up while surfacing, leaving the tower exposed without the benefit the watch crew, or you, for a few seconds.

VIIB recommended over VIIC.

[Immelman]

I do believe that in game both range and crush depth are the same. Otherwise good list

[Snestorm]

It wouldn't shock me to learn that the game ranges are equal.

The (UNADVERTISED) max depths do differ.
Without ruining anything with a spoiler, here they are from shallowest to deepest:
IIA
IID
IXB
VIIB
IXC
IXD2
VIIC, VIIC/41, VIIC/42 (identical)
XXI

The advertised max depth show the IXs as being able to go deeper than the VIIs.
On pushing the limits, it's not true (unaltered/stock).

[Jimbuna]

It wouldn't shock me to learn that the game ranges are equal.

The (UNADVERTISED) max depths do differ.
Without ruining anything with a spoiler, here they are from shallowest to deepest:
IIA
IID
IXB
VIIB
IXC
IXD2
VIIC, VIIC/41, VIIC/42 (identical)
XXI

The advertised max depth show the IXs as being able to go deeper than the VIIs.
On pushing the limits, it's not true (unaltered/stock).

I'm simply curious....what information or data from the game did you use to compile the list? :hmmm:

[Reinhard Dietz]

The (UNADVERTISED) max depths do differ.
Without ruining anything with a spoiler, here they are from shallowest to deepest:
Hey, if you wouldn't mind, feel free to spoil any and all technical data you care to share via PM. My current commander's interests would be served by knowing just how deep he can take any of the boats he does or may command. :03:

[Snestorm]

I'm simply curious....what information or data from the game did you use to compile the list? :hmmm:

Community Manual.
mysh3.info
Commanding the U-boat.
U-boats.
(chart) "maximum depths".

[Snestorm]

Hey, if you wouldn't mind, feel free to spoil any and all technical data you care to share via PM. My current commander's interests would be served by knowing just how deep he can take any of the boats he does or may command. :03:

The numbers I have are the very maximum if everything is in your favor, including the "dice rolls".

Let's wait for Jimbuna to confirm the source as being accurate before I PM you the numbers. My information is second hand where-as, he's actualy been "deep" inside the files. I trust Jimbuna over the original source.

[Jimbuna]

Community Manual.
mysh3.info
Commanding the U-boat.
U-boats.
(chart) "maximum depths".

The numbers I have are the very maximum if everything is in your favor, including the "dice rolls".

Let's wait for Jimbuna to confirm the source as being accurate before I PM you the numbers. My information is second hand where-as, he's actualy been "deep" inside the files. I trust Jimbuna over the original source.

Oh I'm not doubting you, originally they were all near enough what was stated in the manual but the onset of so many mods in 5 years may have had some impact on the individual depths.

I know SH3Commander with its randomised crush depth certainly did.

IIRC someone over at The Lair 'tinkered' with the subject matter but I don't think it was included in the GWX3.0 release.

My memory isn't very good these days so it's possible a Grey Wolf will remind me that I'm wrong on this occasion :DL

[Snestorm]

the onset of so many mods in 5 years may have had some impact on the individual depths.

This is what concerns me also.
Guess I'll pass him the numbers, with an appropriate warning.

[Reinhard Dietz]

You can explain this kind of stuff easily---Herr M. Schkott is the LI and somehow, he happens to know everything about the boat. :D "She canna take much more of this, herr leutnant!"

[frau kaleun]

...Herr M. Schkott...

:haha:

[Paul Riley]

My memory isn't very good these days

Poor old jim,hope you have'nt been laid in the sun hitting the rum again while on leave? :salute:
Never mind,we'll look after ya mate,so long as you save a bit of that rum :03:

[Jimbuna]

Aye...nowt better than a drop/bottle of Nelsn's blood.

http://www.abfnet.com/forum/images/smilies/pirate_with_bottle_of_rum_lg_blk.gif

btw....I enjoyed being at the match on Monday evening (the night we were officially promoted) watching the 2-1 defeat of your 'United' team http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/4030/winkbigid2zj6.gif

[Paul Riley]

Aye...nowt better than a drop/bottle of Nelsn's blood.

http://www.abfnet.com/forum/images/smilies/pirate_with_bottle_of_rum_lg_blk.gif

btw....I enjoyed being at the match on Monday evening (the night we were officially promoted) watching the 2-1 defeat of your 'United' team http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/4030/winkbigid2zj6.gif

I dont support any footie teams jim,but if I did it would be Sheffield Wed ;)

[Jimbuna]

I dont support any footie teams jim,but if I did it would be Sheffield Wed ;)

They're currently 1-0 down at Middlesbrough :03:

[Paul Riley]

They're currently 1-0 down at Middlesbrough :03:

Bloody typical :-?

[KL-alfman]

btw....I enjoyed being at the match on Monday evening (the night we were officially promoted) watching the 2-1 defeat of your 'United' team http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/4030/winkbigid2zj6.gif


so you are fan of "Neuburg"?
they are a likeable team, for sure. :DL

glad, they are back in premier-league. :up:

[Paul Riley]

so you are fan of "Neuburg"?
they are a likeable team, for sure. :DL

glad, they are back in premier-league. :up:

:har:
I think jim was on about Sheffield United?
You sure make me laugh sometimes Mr Alfman :woot:

[Jimbuna]

so you are fan of "Neuburg"?
they are a likeable team, for sure. :DL

glad, they are back in premier-league. :up:

:har:
I think jim was on about Sheffield United?
You sure make me laugh sometimes Mr Alfman :woot:

The team I support are called Newcastle United and they were playing a team called Sheffield United who are located pretty close to where young master Riley resides....Sheffield :DL

[KL-alfman]

so even as foreigner I could understand!

(and Pauli didn't) :D

[Jimbuna]

so even as foreigner I could understand!

(and Pauli didn't) :D


http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/4030/winkbigid2zj6.gif

[Paul Riley]

The team I support are called Newcastle United and they were playing a team called Sheffield United who are located pretty close to where young master Riley resides....Sheffield :DL

Sheff Utd ground is about 1 hr or so from my house jim,once you get into the town centre just follow your nose,the smell of pig s##t is hard to miss.
I'm lucky I live near the countryside :D

[Jimbuna]

LMAO :rotfl2:

We say similar of Sunderland :DL

[Paul Riley]

LMAO :rotfl2:

We say similar of Sunderland :DL

:03::D