TMO vs RFB: FIGHT!

[Zosxavius]

I've been playing with TMO for a long time and while I love 95% of it, I gotta question the accuracy of a lot of design decisions that went into it. Crush depths seems almost arcade-like. I mean I took an S Class down to 400 or so before it crushed. Test on the S Class was 200ft. I doubt that many would go beyond 300 before crushing, or even 250 for that matter. Destroyers still accelerate like speed boats. They can also hear you a mile away. Even early in the war, when they should have been pretty weak. I distinctly remember in Silent Service II that the DDs wouldn't start picking up on your shafts until you were fairly close and at high speeds. In TMO you almost have to perfectly park yourself in front of a convoy to get a shot. Forget about running on the surface, even at night. This seems kind of unrealistic. Maybe it is just the AI and the way it was designed. Its almost like they are constantly running active sonar or something. Either that or they have expert ears. Also the type 32 measure paint scheme is available in the very beginning, when it was only available in the war in late 43. Radar seems to come awfully early too. I love everything else and can't really think of anything else that comes to mind that I didn't like other than the very gamey character advancement. I would try out RFB, but I think the boats crush immediately after test, which seems kind of unrealistic too. It would be cool if both mods could somehow make sweet mod love and spawn forth the better parts of each mod.

I guess my real question is that is RFB all that much more historically realistic than TMO? I know everyone here has their favorites, I guess I sort of want to know why.

And the subject is not intended to start a flame war. :)

[Ducimus]

Thanks for reminding me why i need a new hobby.

[tater]

I'm anxious to see the destructive testing data you have on pig boats, I can't find it in Friedman.

[Buddahaid]

Thanks for reminding me why i need a new hobby.

:har:

[Zosxavius]

thanks for making one of the greatest mods ever. your mod fixes so many broken things with the original. hell, it even gave my crew back their eyeballs. until i got TMO to run, I was really ready to give up on SH4 and go back to SH3/GWX. I know the depth issue has been talked to death. I dunno. Isn't there someway for people to just configure it to their own choosing? I mean its basically just a number. Subcommander used to randomize it, which was kind of neat. I always try to figure out where near crush is anyways, and I guess that a lot of sub commanders in WWII on both sides of the world certainly did the same thing and pushed the envelope to a certain extent. The scene from Das Boot comes to mind, though certainly that might have been a little over the top. it just seems like in game the destroyers seems to lose you after 500ft (what's the max depth for depth charges?) and the challenge is totally gone because you can knowingly drop to 550-600ft without any sort of ill effects. I think most american WWII submariners would be terrified at 600ft.

[kylesplanet]

I think most american WWII submariners would be terrified at 600ft


You would be wrong on that.

[Ducimus]

I wouldn't alter crush depths without some basis behind it. The research IS hard to find, and often from first hand accounts. Normal resources tend to gloss over the gritty details.

A salmon, at 520 feet, and from the sounds of things, holding steady but sinking slowly.
http://www.subvetpaul.com/Her_Last_Dive.html

The same boat 578 feet when depth control was regained after a bad DC attack.
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/rep/WDR/WDR58/WDR58-7.html

A gato, believed to have passed 700 feet.
http://www.subvetpaul.com/Geck1.htm

Most everyone has heard of the Balao down to 1000 feet... in 1969. Thats one well worn hull by that time.
http://www.usschopper.com/Chopper%20Deep%20Dive%20Report.htm

Most everyone's also heard of the Tangs 620 ft dive during sea trials.

[razark]

I may be wrong here, but I believe the goal of TMO was to make it harder, not completely realistic.

Anyway, I'm enjoying it. A lot.

If you don't like it, use another mod, or figure out how to make it more to your taste. Search the forums, figure out how to do things, and make your own mod for your own use. Maybe you can get players to take it up themselves.

And the subject is not intended to start a flame war.
Then you should have picked a better thread title.

[Ducimus]

I may be wrong here, but I believe the goal of TMO was to make it harder, not completely realistic.


That is one of the goals, but really, its more of trying to blend historical accuracy, with the caveat, that yes margret, it's also a game. TMO is say.. 75% rivet counting and 25% gamey.

Having said that, realism, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I define realism for the most part, by player behavior. If the mod makes the player behave in a more realistic fashion, then its working right.

------------

As an aside, there is no, nor has ever been a fight between TMO and RFB. Luke has his take on realism, i have mine, and there is some cross pollination between both mods.

[Armistead]

Like all mega mods, you have a learning curve. I've played them all and find TMO the best. As far difficulty it's harder, but I'm on by 6th patrol and have over 300K sunk, so still easy. When I find a mod that forces me into total realism where I can sink what they did in real war then I'll call it realistic. This is playing at 90%.

I just attacked the fast dd's coming down the slot in the Solomons..a group of 9. I did so on the surface and pulled out without being seen. It's actually easier to attack on the surface with 1.9 than 1.7 IMO, but you need right conditions.

No doubt the AI is hard with most escorts set on veteran or elite, but if you understand the AI and willing to wait and attack under the right conditions you can easily defeat TMO. If not, turn the boat over to the XO.

I still await the realistic mod.....until then we can all sink the japs in mass.

[tater]

I define realism for the most part, by player behavior. If the mod makes the player behave in a more realistic fashion, then its working right.

This X1000

In Rl, the skippers knew the test depth, and that was it. They'd have read patrol reports about boats going way below test depth and surviving, but every single time would be a huge question mark.

In game, if you arbitrarily set the crush depth at 2X test depth, then all the RL accounts below that are instantly impossible.

Besides, in many of the most interesting places, you can't even get to test depth, much less crush depth ;)

[kylesplanet]

This mod has brought me countless hours of enjoyment, more than I care to count. TMO makes a good game great, it's my all time favorite.

When I approach a convoy, I think about it. I know if I'm not careful, my ass will be dead and my career over. I get nervous when the destroyers are overhead. I'm always hoping they're not the elite guys.
My wife has had a blast making fun of me sitting at my computer desk cussing at the screen or humped over like I'm trying to avoid something falling on my head. I've even caught my self looking up a couple times. The inside of the sub is the best view in the game and TMO has improved that greatly.

I can sit back in the new Captains cabin and listen to the radio and enjoy the time I spend on my sub, almost thankful that there has not been a confrontation today. I can't imagine what would make a game more realistic than that. :arrgh!:

[Steiger]

Yes, I love TMO and I couldn't imagine playing without it. If TMO 1.9 is this good, 2.0 (if it should come to pass) will blow my socks off.

[Frumpkis]

I view TMO as sort of like the traditional expansion pack for games, before that got all messed up with this current "lightweight downloadable piecemeal content" in current games. It used to be that an expansion pack was for players who had racked up enough experience in a game to look for more challenge. That's what TMO is (IMO).

I've been away from SH4 for over a year, just came back to it recently after reading disappointing reviews of SH5. Since my "sub chops" are rusty, I'm playing RFB + RSRD now, and having fun while I remember what buttons to hit. I like the way RFB balances things, but sometimes I feel that I'm not being detected when I should be (periscope up in clear weather etc.). But that's okay, for now.

If it starts to get boring... kills get a little too easy.... I'll shift over to TMO. And thanks to Ducimus for that option and all the hard work!

[Carotio]

Thanks for reminding me why i need a new hobby.

Hehe, I'm glad that I have never quit my other hobby (photography).

[McHibbins]

Never tried TMO but very pleased with RFB. It is good to have options.

[Admiral8Q]

Are TMO and RFB incompatible then?

[AVGWarhawk]

Are TMO and RFB incompatible then?


Both are a large mod unto themselves. Do not run TMO and RFB together. :up:

[Steiger]

Are TMO and RFB incompatible then?

You can interchange between the two of them using JSGME.

[Wilcke]

You can interchange between the two of them using JSGME.

Better yet create two independent installs of SH4, use MultiSH4 to organize the Save Game/Career folders and you can run careers simultaneously. While your at it install a third for OM+OMEGU! Enjoy all three, no need to choose! You can have it all. Sweet!

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Better yet create two independent installs of SH4, use MultiSH4 to organize the Save Game/Career folders and you can run careers simultaneously. While your at it install a third for OM+OMEGU! Enjoy all three, no need to choose! You can have it all. Sweet!


Yep.

Some days it's a "Torpedo in the water" day... Others, a badly needed "Los!"

[Hylander_1314]

This is a goofy thread.

Both supermods are great! So is FOTRS! They all have their pros and cons. I love them all. It just depends on how much time I have to play the game, and which mod I want to use at that time.

[AVGWarhawk]

I have not used FOTRS. I wish I had the time to try them all.....

[ShadowWolf Kell]

I have not used FOTRS. I wish I had the time to try them all.....


We're quite fortunate that so many avid sub fans have been putting into such a tremendous effort in the variety of mods for SH4. :DL

[AVGWarhawk]

We're quite fortunate that so many avid sub fans have been putting into such a tremendous effort in the variety of mods for SH4. :DL


:yep: You are correct! It really is a blessing.

[tomoose]

Thanks to Ducimus and the other fantastic modders out there. I haven't tried RFB as yet but TMO1.9 is doing the job very well so far and I have no real reason to switch.

I have come back from patrols with only one or two merchant ships to show for it and yet still feel satisfied due to the effort of obtaining just those victories. As to crush depth, haven't put it to the test as yet and, if I do my job as a skipper correctly, I won't have to put it to the test!!:03:

In short, TMO and SHIV Speech, provide the immersion I want in my sub sim. For similar reasons I only use SH3 and GWX for my u-boat fix. Both great mods.

I've been sitting on the sidelines watching the SH5 drama unfold. It's a damn shame. SH3 and GWX seem to remain good enough for the U-boat side of the house, at least for now.

[Sailor Steve]

I haven't tried RFB as yet but TMO1.9 is doing the job very well so far and I have no real reason to switch.
And that's the real answer to threads like this. Which is truly the best? Why, the one that appeals to you, of course! The one that turns you on. The one that floats your boat (had to sneak that in there somehow).

People like different mods for different reasons. I use RFB, because I tried it and liked it. Who knows that I wouldn't like TMO better? But those planes scare me!

I've been sitting on the sidelines watching the SH5 drama unfold. It's a damn shame. SH3 and GWX seem to remain good enough for the U-boat side of the house, at least for now.
SH4 with OM ain't bad either!:rock: I get all the SH4 pluses and u-boats to boot.

[TH0R]

You can interchange between the two of them using JSGME.

You can, but do not ever do what I did - do one patrol with RFB and then TMO. You will end up with some serious bugs. :D


I have tried them both and there are some neat goodies that I miss in RFB and TMO has them, but overall RFB is closer to my perception of realism. ;)

Probably the biggest advantage (for me at least) in RFB is the sinking model which will reach totally new levels with the upcoming patch as Luke fixed broken 'critical hit chance' which was 1:1000 until now. I've been testing this for the past few days and I have to say, sinking ships never felt more real in SH4.

And I love the environment mod used in RFB. :rock:

But, I have to say, both mods are simply outstanding.

[Jan Kyster]

I've played the Silversides in TMO for about a year now... currently in august 1944.

Once finished it'll be patrols in the gawdalmighty Narwhal...
That'll probably add another 6 months... :D

Operation Atlantic Campaign sounds very attractive too! :rock:


Then I will definitely want a trip to the dark side in OM... could get stuck there forever? Just look at that TDC!


And then to new grounds with RFB, FOTRS... how about the IJN campaign? Could long be finished when I get to this point in time :arrgh!:


With current pace I'll probably be "finished" with SH IV some 8 to 12 years from now...



My point? :hmmm: not sure, really... never understood the "this mod versus that"...

[danurve]

This frackin thread is about as useful as a screen door on a Gato.

But, it also reminded me of the old Rock em Sock em Robot game.

[AVGWarhawk]

This frackin thread is about as useful as a screen door on a Gato.



Like a trap door in a canoe! :har:

[Rockin Robbins]

Air conditioning in an igloo.

[Sailor Steve]

A.....a something.....in a.....something something!

[Ducimus]

About as useful as a left handed hammer or a metric cresant wrench

[Buddahaid]

About as useful as a cat on a hot day.

[LukeFF]

As an aside, there is no, nor has ever been a fight between TMO and RFB. Luke has his take on realism, i have mine, and there is some cross pollination between both mods.

What he said. :)

[Jten]

:hmmm: LukeFF and Ducimus are cross pollinating? I thought cloning was dangerous but that's got me dogging the hatches, diving deep and running silent, running scared!

[Ducimus]

:hmmm: LukeFF and Ducimus are cross pollinating? I thought cloning was dangerous but that's got me dogging the hatches, diving deep and running silent, running scared!

We exchange ideas, reference material, and file tweaks. What we do with those 3 things is where the word "interpretation" steps in. :haha:

[kylesplanet]

Reading all the stories and comments in this thread about how much enjoyment these mods have brought people just shows how valuable RFB and TMO are to our community.

A big thank you to Ducimus, Luke, Team RFB and everyone else that has worked so hard and put in so many hours so we can have so much fun. :salute::salute::salute:

[Admiral8Q]

How do I get the Narwhal mod to work with RFB?

[LukeFF]

How do I get the Narwhal mod to work with RFB?

Why are you asking that here? There's a stickied thread in the modding forum that deals with this very subject.