Advice please

[RConch]

Not to count my chickens before they hatch, however I am close to the time that escorts will have radar for the most part.
Need some advice on successful convoy attack strategies if any.
So far my only plan is to get in front and stay submerged hoping there is not an escort at the front of the convoy. If there is, I got no plan at all.
Thanks for any tips.:salute:

[maillemaker]

As long as you approach from the front flanks and intercept so that you are a couple of thousand meters from the lead escort when you are right beside him by the time the rest of the convoy comes along you should be able to close to 1000m or so.

Steve

[Red Heat]

This its not only for newbies...in here there isnt a tutorial to attack convoys but all the information together can help in that task! :salute:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=96026

[Randomizer]

Not to count my chickens before they hatch, however I am close to the time that escorts will have radar for the most part.
Need some advice on successful convoy attack strategies if any.
So far my only plan is to get in front and stay submerged hoping there is not an escort at the front of the convoy. If there is, I got no plan at all.
Thanks for any tips.:salute:
This is the root of the problem the KM itself never solved so don't feel to bad if your options seem limited.

- Changing your patrol area to coastal waters or deep water choke points simplifies your convoy locating problem and greatly increases the chances of both detecting and being ahead of a convoy. Successful open ocean operations in GWX late war is almost entirely a matter of luck. Possible concentration areas include AM51, BE33 and CG88.

- Some report decreased probability of being detected by flooding down the boat. I have had mixed results but try to spend as little time surfaced as possible.

- Use long-range torpedo shots and salvoes using FATs, air at night and electric by day. Air FATs can often reach the main body of the convoy from outside the screen decreasing the probability of an effective counter-attack. Build your targeting solution on the entire convoy rather than one ship and use the TDC screen to correctly plot the path of the FAT relative to the convoy.

- As soon as you can afford them, dump straight running torpedoes for pattern-runners and acoustics. Do not expend the latter except in self-defence. Gunning for escorts in 44-45 is a good way to end a career.

- You might want to consider re-activating the renown reward for remaining on station and returning to base that are deactivated in GWX. Late in the war, merely surviving more than one patrol might be taken as an impressive feat of captancy. At a time when 10,000 tons represents an impressive patrol result, gaining the renown for patrolling and returning allows you to acquire the FATs and acoustics that can increase your chances of survival and success in what is truly a hostile environment.

- Use Updated Map Contacts, yah, it sucks but you will not have the time to create the resulting plots AND conduct the approach AND do all the other duties required to remain situationally aware.

- If you know that you have been detected and you have radar fitted it might be worth using it to better your fire control solution.

- Know when to cut your losses and let a convoy pass without an attack. Late war convoy ops are far less tolerant of risks than earlier in the war. Escorts tend to be better, there are more of them and Coastal Command is waiting in the wings to pounce.

- Once you have your snorckel consider coastal operations where single ship traffic still exists late in the war. The negatives are shallow water, mines, increased air threat and the possibility of encountering swarms of escorts but it can offer some good targets.

Late war patrols can be tedious and frustrating but I think are also the most interesting and challenging aspects of SH3/GWX.

Good Luck and Good Hunting, Comrade.

[KL-alfman]

great hints, Randomizer! :salute:

[derrinurban]

Here are a few other tips that I have found work well.

- get ahead of convoy, stay about 6km off there approximate center heading at periscope depth. I try to approximate when they will be about 20-25kms away before going to periscope depth so that I do not use up alot of air waiting for them.

- when the lead destroyer is identified on hydrophones, I try to get a better reading on the center line heading and adjust my position to get within about 4-5km of that. I do everything from this point forward in silent running mode. In getting into position it is generally ok to run at 1/3 or standard. They are still a long way off.

- The reason I use these distance numbers from center line heading, is that this puts me a good distance from the lead destroyer, he probably will not detect me and most likely within 1-2 km of the outside of the convoy (depending on the number of columns).

- I like to turn my sub about 45 degrees to the convoy when I get to my lurking position. This will minimize my signature, just in case. Then sit and wait for lead destroyer to get closer.

- as the destroyer gets closer, I move forward at 1-2 knots and keep adjusting my heading to stay pointed directly at him. This may require some stop-starts if he is patrolling forward and back towards the convoy. I keep doing this until I am at 90 degress to the convoy heading. This is my firing position.

- I am also checking with the periscope from time to time to confirm what is going on. There are times when the destroyers hydro signature gets a little lost in the clutter of the convoy readings. At this point, I like to get a periscope reading on the convoy and mark the outside column heading on the map. Lower periscope and move slowly forward, to close on a firing postion.

- my firing position will depend on the year, torpedo load and number and location of other destroyers.

I hope this helps. It has worked well for me.

I also put the disclaimer on this that sometimes s**t happens. Usually it has been due to my own incompetence. whoops, forgot to put down the periscope, forgot to reduce speed to 2 knots, etc. The list of my whoops goes on and on. Remember it is better to call off an attack and live to attack the convoy again (after all you already figured out what his heading is and what the convoy consists of), than to press a bad attack situation (out of position, detected by destroyers, etc.).

[sergei]

Some really good stuff in this thread.
Thanks Randomizer and derrinurban :up:

[RConch]

Some really good stuff in this thread.
Thanks Randomizer and derrinurban :up:

I will second that!!:up:

Great stuff Captains.:salute:

[Jimbuna]

There is also a relevant section in the GWX3.0 manual.

[Hitman]

Bad weather should also be an ally, as radar will theoretically work worser with higher waves. But keeping a small silhouette is in any case key to get undetected. If you have FATs and LUTs you can try shots at 3000-4000 metres range with many chances of hitting something, and it can still work even in mid to late war (Not all escorts have always the most up to date equipment). All you need is a reasonable distance estimation to the convoy and then programming correctly the torpedo to zig-zag. The main problem is evading, because once you give away your position all the hell breaks loose. I would recommend shooting, then turning the boat around with full rudder in the opposite direction the convoy is moving (If convoy is moving to the right of your bow, hit left full rudder) and heading away at flank speed in diagonal, so their speed is added to yours but you keep showing only the narrowest silhouette (Your stern). When you hear the impacts, crash dive, rig for silent running or even full stop. And pray they have not pinpointed you before submerging.

[Randomizer]

Actually I would disagree that bad weather is a friend late in the war. Since all of your surface sensors are inferior to most fitted on escorts and aircraft you are forced to close the range, increasing the risk of being acquired and making evasion that much more difficult.

Long range and FATs can equal success and as Hitman writes, 3-4000 metre shots become the norm.

Bad weather does reduce air contacts and while that is certainly a big plus I am not convinced that SH3 models surface radar clutter judging by the ease a schnorkel mast seems to be detected in high seas. Am willing to be proved wrong here, it just does not jive with my experiances to date. Without surface clutter effects, high seas or overcast accent your weaknesses because waves slow you down and clouds delay visual discovery of aircraft that might have radars your electronics might be unable to detect.

After late 1943 I give up thinking and acting a hunter and take on the attributes and attitude of a slightly mobile minefield. Stay hidden and park in a spot where targets are likely to pass through. Prey should come to you or else it gets away since in all areas except passive hydrophones a U-Boat is at a huge disadvantage late in the war.

[Leandros]

Not to count my chickens before they hatch, however I am close to the time that escorts will have radar for the most part.
Need some advice on successful convoy attack strategies if any.
So far my only plan is to get in front and stay submerged hoping there is not an escort at the front of the convoy. If there is, I got no plan at all.
Thanks for any tips.:salute:
Nice thing about the escorts getting radar is that you can discover convoys when you are at the surface, much better than with the sonar when you are submerged. When the RWR gives you a warning, first decide whether it is a vessel or an aircraft. You see this by the speed it is approaching. When you have decided it is a vessel, go for the transmitter directly. After a while you shall pick up more signals from other escorts. From the pattern that develops you can decide the course of the convoy and cross over in front of it. Then, go down and just let yourself be rolled over. Hals und Beinbruch!

[Flopper]

@derrinurbin:

Having NEVER had a successful convoy attack (I'm always under attack before I can get a shot off), I'm really happy to read about methods I have not tried. Thanks!

[Snestorm]

Just got into Lorient from patrol d. 1. november 1941.

Radar, and Escort experiences of late.

The escorts have moved out to the limits of visibility from the convoys of late. This means that one can NOT hold visible contact with the merchants any longer. (They're finaly getting smart.) Side escorts have been operating between 5000 and 7000 meters out.

All lead escorts of late, seem to have radar. Particularly Clemson Class Destroyers!
My bridge watch don't see them coming. It is gereraly I who spot them coming at about 2000 meters. They have to know I'm there, as they are coming bow on at VERY HIGH SPEED.

These ex-US Destroyers HAVE to be fitted with Radar.
There is no other possible explanation, and it's happenned too often to be coinsidental.

Night Surface Attacks are no longer a good idé.
Aircraft aren't a common thing Mid-Atlantic yet, so "frequent" long range hydrophone checks can be used as an aid.

Trying to put oneself in a position where the convoy will "trip over you" is the only hope.

Once the sky fills with aircraft, in many cases, you'll either be in the right place at the right time, or you won't.

I also concur that poor visibility is no longer youre friend.
My boat just got jumped in BF42. (Recharging battery at night - medium fog.)
The first word I got was, "We're under attack, sir!"
He had to have had Radar tyed into his Fire Control.
Good thing he decided to use it beyond our visual range. Otherwise we would have been rammed.
My IXC did manage to get down with the ASW vessel still at medium range, per my hydrophone operator.

[Doolar]

i'm with Flopper ... no luck with large convoys ... i get too far ahead then they change directions on me and then I'm out of postiion ... or I get detected ... the tips above are just what the doctor ordered ... THANX ALL ! It's still early in the war for me ( May 1940 ) , but as I progress , I'll need to learn these skills .... Jerry

[Hitman]

Actually I would disagree that bad weather is a friend late in the war. Since all of your surface sensors are inferior to most fitted on escorts and aircraft you are forced to close the range, increasing the risk of being acquired and making evasion that much more difficult.

Humm may be that's because I have more experience with NYGM, and I could swear that it makes waves more noticeable, or may be it's the aspect. As long as they do not have centimetric one installed, but the one meter wavelength one, you can get as close as 4000 metres in rough waves if you keep a small silhouette, I have experienced that. :hmmm:

Anyway, I have readed in Blair's book several accounts of surface attacks -from longer ranges- in late 1943 due to bad weather and imprecission of older models of radar still installed on ships, so it should be realistic in any case. Not the norm, but possible.

[pickinthebanjo]

All lead escorts of late, seem to have radar. Particularly Clemson Class Destroyers!
I spot them coming at about 2000 meters, they are coming bow on at VERY HIGH SPEED.

Trying to put oneself in a position where the convoy will "trip over you" is the only hope.

I was wondering how well those destroyers dodge torpedoes when in attack run?

Also thats the tactic that I use to intercept convoys, how well does it work in the later years? when I know im in there path I cut engines and run silent.

[Snestorm]

I was wondering how well those destroyers dodge torpedoes when in attack run?

Also thats the tactic that I use to intercept convoys, how well does it work in the later years? when I know im in there path I cut engines and run silent.

Destoyers & Torpedoes:
It would seem from reading posts, that SH3 destroyers in attack mode, don't dodge torpedoes very well. The real world was something quite different.
1: All USN, and probably RN, warships went through degausing (demagnification).
(Anybody interested in doing a Sam Dealy "down the throat shot" with impacts?)
2: Destroyers carry, use, and understand torpedoes. They'll sway a bit on the way in.
(He'll either try to pass over and slightly ahead of you stern to bow, at a 45 degree angle for a DC run OR, ram you broadside.)
ONE UBOAT WAS EVEN SUNK BY A DESTROYER USING TORPEDOES.
On another torpedo note, the german homing torpedoes, in reality, had a 30% success rate. In SH3 they seem to do better.

Your tactic will be about the only way to get within short to medium range of a convoy. But be forwarned, it becomes a real war of nerves to hang in there. The downside is that being aggressive enough to win the war of nerves, can lead to loosing the war of staying alive. Unfortunately, this stage has a habit of sneeking up on us, without our forknowledge that we entered it.

Cutting the engines is something I don't do, but to each is own.
(I prefer my turns at 90 RPM in silent mode).

[derrinurban]

i'm with Flopper ... no luck with large convoys ... i get too far ahead then they change directions on me and then I'm out of postiion ... or I get detected ... the tips above are just what the doctor ordered ... THANX ALL ! It's still early in the war for me ( May 1940 ) , but as I progress , I'll need to learn these skills .... Jerry

This I am sure has happened to us all. Like I said do not try to force a bad attack. Unless you are starting to get too close to the shallows around England, plot the new course and swing around for another run at them. I used to have this situation alot when I would try and plot the convoy course and rush to where they will be at nightime. I have changed things up and now just plot an intercept course and stay ahead of them at about the 2 (or 10) o'clock position. I try to match their speed and do hourly or 2 hour periscope depth hydrophone checks to make sure I am still in good position. As nightime comes I set up for hunting. In this way if they change course I can react and never get to far out of position.


Also thats the tactic that I use to intercept convoys, how well does it work in the later years? when I know im in there path I cut engines and run silent.

Early on in the war I have sat at 25m directly in the convoy path, middle of the day and had destroyers pass right over me and attack from within the convoy. Later on, this would be absolute suicide. If I recall, the sonar range of destroyers is somewhere around 2 kms and beyond that is hydrophones. So as a rule I try and stay at least 1500 - 2000 meters away from the lead destroyer. Running silent, they will have a hard time detecting me unless I make a grevious error. After he passes in front of me I can use his dead zone to get into a closer position.