Are there any real deal breakers in SH5 ?

[horsa]

SH5 was a train crash. Right ?

Morale was broken.
too many unnecessary changes to the UI,
very little information on what to do or how to do it ,
character dialogue tediously limited
lack of sub damage control
and so on ....

But hey . Wait. What is really missing ?
A lot of stuff is in there but either underdeveloped (like the character dialogue) or inexplicably hidden away (like compass and 'depth under keel'). All moddable.

Forget the ethics for a moment ( Ubi sucks, unfinished product, why rely on unpaid modders, yaddy ya yaddy ya ......) .
What features are really missing or annoyingly obtrusive. So much so that they are real deal breakers for you? Things that should be in (or not in), which no amount of modding can put right ( like the red triangle in SH2).

Which are the real deal breakers of SH5 ????

[Sailor Steve]

The only thing keeping me from buying it is the 'online' requirement. Nothing reported so far looks like it can't be fixed, and it seems like the game has a lot to offer in the long run.

[mookiemookie]

The Type VII only deal is very bad. The crew management (not managing transfers and whatnot) is bad....real captains had to deal with losing key personnel and having green recruits after every patrol.

[robbo180265]

For me the fact that there seems to be only 3 types of merchant to sink may lead me to lose interest in the future.

I don't like the fact that I can only play till '43 and I'm not keen on only having the type VII. I'd also like to be able to select the start date (like SHIII) instead of having to start in '39.

[louloupenalty]

The only thing keeping me from buying it is the 'online' requirement. Nothing reported so far looks like it can't be fixed, and it seems like the game has a lot to offer in the long run.

I have to say i have no problem with having to connect once for activation and then each time i load the game. However, i still consider very unfair that you have to be permanently connected when playing offline.
This would be the real deal breaker for me, but since i'm a huge fan of the series i still bought it.

[alexradu89]

1. the war "ends" in 43 :shifty:
2. only 1 type of playable subs
3. lack of realism and immersion
4. bugs (AI, UI)
5. crap systems and crew management
6. pretty much lack of quantity (the only quality is the eye candy graphics, nothing more)
Wouldn't give a rat's a*s about the DRM thing as long as they provided me with a WORKING game.

:down: Fail Ubi is fail! :down:

[KiwiVenge]

My only real concern was the authentication servers. First couple of weekends some people could not play SH5 because of server problems.
Last weekend the forums didn't have anywhere near the amount (if any) of server problem complaints so I bought the game.
Added some of the already existing mods and having fun. This weekend I did not experience any problems whatsoever with it.
So mods + working authentication servers = no deal breakers from my perspective.

Oh, and you can pick the game up a lot cheaper then at release a month or so ago.

[Onkel Neal]

SH5 was a train crash. Right ?

Morale was broken.
too many unnecessary changes to the UI,
very little information on what to do or how to do it ,
character dialogue tediously limited
lack of sub damage control
and so on ....

But hey . Wait. What is really missing ?
A lot of stuff is in there but either underdeveloped (like the character dialogue) or inexplicably hidden away (like compass and 'depth under keel'). All moddable.

Forget the ethics for a moment ( Ubi sucks, unfinished product, why rely on unpaid modders, yaddy ya yaddy ya ......) .
What features are really missing or annoyingly obtrusive. So much so that they are real deal breakers for you? Things that should be in (or not in), which no amount of modding can put right ( like the red triangle in SH2).

Which are the real deal breakers of SH5 ????

Very good question. My hope is, Ubisoft will focus on these major issues, the stuff modders cannot fix, if they decide to work on a 2nd patch.

For me, the AI is the biggest non-moddable issue with the game. I can ignore the weak/ineffective RPG stuff, I can see the game being modded to 1945, and I can live with one type of U-boat. For me to get repeated enjoyment out of the game, the escort AI needs to be improved, and other ship AI as well, so we do not have to see AI ships doing crazy things like ramming docks and running off into the woods.

[SabreHawk]

Ya know for all the opposition to the online thing, we all are online here everyday and none seem to be without an internet connection.
So why such opposition to something that you already have and use all the time, every day and every night.
For instance, this forum requires it otherwise you'd not be able to be here and post all the opposition, nor would you be able to get all the wonderful work of the modders. So, no internet..........no subsim.com
Without an internet connection, all the SH3 GWX players wouldnt be, they'd all still be running it stock, and wouldn't even have any knowlege of mods. And they all think that it's so much greater, but how long did it take to become so great? And how old is SH5? Thats right one measly month.

No dealbreaker here for me, cause I know that patches are coming and all will be right in time, if not by patches then by mods.
And in the meantime, for me it runs well and smoothly and on only one occasion failed to connect due to a server problem and that only lasted for 30 minutes. And once it failed because of a registry problem on my end, and was my doing.

I really think that we cannot truly make a judgement till after the next patch and see where that put us. And I have never seen a piece of software that was released a fully finished and complete product. Yes, even windows itself which has had how many patches, upddates and service packs since it's release? And still gets updated about once per month or so.
Computers and software has become so complex, that I dont think it's within human ability to ever really perfect. And like any work of art, is never truly finished, but only abandoned.

[McBeck]

I tend to agree with Neal.

The war end date can be modded
Extra subs can be modded
Even the crew animations can be modded
The AI cant be modded

[rcjonessnp175]

no eyefinity support is a bummer to. Really?? its 2010 and both card makers have multiscreen capabilities now. :damn:

[The General]

The Type VII only deal is very bad.THe detail in the Command room for the Type VII in SH5 is astonishing :o. That's a lot of work right there and alot of polygons to throw around the place too :yep:. DCS Blackshark is a flight sim for only one model helicopter and it's the best there is in that genre. Having only one model sub is acceptable to me as long as the other elements are gotten right.

Inability of Watch-crew to spot anything neutral, as in SH4
, is a REAL killer. May as well not have any neutral shipping out thereYep, the whole point of having 'no map contact updates' switched off is that you could well sink a friendly unless you properly identified who you were firing at. Unfortunately switching off the contact updates in SH5 is akin to reducing gameplay and thus enjoymeny by half. This facility needs to be adjusted so that a single plot is made on the chart showing the surface vessel's approximate postion and and course when it is first detected. It should not be identified as being friend or foe (red or blue) and the accuracy of it's postion/course etc should only be
updated when new information is sent by you the Player fom whatever source you chose, be it calling out from the bridge, using the UZO, Periscopes or Sonar Suite. As it is, everyting is switched off and it just looks like this part of the game, along with many others, was not finished.


if they decide to work on a 2nd patch.
I find it strange that Neal himself doesn't know wether or not we're getting a second Patch at this stage. :hmmm: I was hoping it would be released any minute and Neal hasn't heard through the grapevine if it's even in develpoment :o

[janh]

SH5 was a train crash. Right ?
...
Which are the real deal breakers of SH5 ????


- Online requirement, or any form of online DRM/activation etc. I can be a paying customer, but I don't want to bend my principles and even feel like a pirate afterwards.
- Evidence from modders here that all the necessary functions and scripting commands are implemented that will allow modders to add the missing content, i.e the other boats, vessels, weapobs and sensor technology from 43-45, as well as the missing campaign period. As well as all the nice realism gimmicks that I am so used to from SHIII with mods. I can only play one game at a time, so it will be the throne holder. Sorry, just don't have any more free time to share.

[janh]

...The AI cant be modded...

I though they had opened up all the AI scripts to modding with this release? I thought that was the big excitement about "enhanced modability"? Don't scare me.

[Sailor Steve]

Ya know for all the opposition to the online thing, we all are online here everyday and none seem to be without an internet connection.
I'm currently homeless, and post from the library.

So why such opposition to something that you already have and use all the time, every day and every night.
The last year in my old place was spent scraping to find enough work to pay the rent and utilities, and hitting the free food banks so I could eat. Internet was a luxury I couldn't afford, so I came to the library then too.

For instance, this forum requires it otherwise you'd not be able to be here and post all the opposition, nor would you be able to get all the wonderful work of the modders. So, no internet..........no subsim.com
Without an internet connection, all the SH3 GWX players wouldnt be, they'd all still be running it stock, and wouldn't even have any knowlege of mods.
When I was in my own place, and could play, I could download stuff from the library with my flash drive. That is how I manage to keep releasing updates to my own Ship Names mod - all my work is on the flash drive and I can do the research where I'm at.

And don't forget the people who want to play while they travel, or in remote places. I have a friend who lives only thirty miles from Salt Lake City, and he has to make do with a very bad dial-up. There is no broadband where he lives.

Also, since you brought it up, the real problem as I see it is that no-one should be required to be online to play what is absolutely an off-line game. So, even if was richer than Croesus I still would oppose it.

And they all think that it's so much greater, but how long did it take to become so great? And how old is SH5? Thats right one measly month.
I'm already on record as agreeing with you there. I was all set to pre-order it when I found out I wouldn't be able to play it - not because of my computer or situation, but because UBI said I couldn't.

[Webster]

The only thing keeping me from buying it is the 'online' requirement. Nothing reported so far looks like it can't be fixed, and it seems like the game has a lot to offer in the long run.


agreed and IMO the devs took an idea from UBI to make sh5 into a FPS sub game and in the only way they knew how to "save" the game from such an endever, they creatively/cleverly structured it so the modders could eventually port all of sh3 to this game and have a new version of sh3 with better AI and grafics.

[Boats]

I don't know of what I speak, but purusing the Goblin editor tool shows a list of uboats present. A type IIa and nearly all the varients of the VII. Including a couple of historical boats. (U-30, 99, & 552) And an Undine, whatever that is. I'm no modder so I'm not sure what I'm looking at. I'm looking forward to learning though.

When the pig is full that is.

[horsa]

agreed and IMO the devs took an idea from UBI to make sh5 into a FPS sub game and in the only way they knew how to "save" the game from such an endever, they creatively/cleverly structured it so the modders could eventually port all of sh3 to this game and have a new version of sh3 with better AI and grafics.Interesting thought. If I understand you correctly, UBI call the design brief - it must be an FPS ( market decision?) Then the devs make it accessible for the likes of us to turn it into more of a grognards game.

I wonder what sort of company politics are at work here ? I think you have to start with the idea that UBI(Corporate) don't make sims as a labour of love (like we might if we had the resources). Its about running a profitable company. Given their design brief, would the devs then be sufficiently independent to build a game which they know can be modded into what we would recognise as a sim. Note the 'generous' access to modding tools.

The other thing that intrigues me about this strange release is the "only one sub" thing. My own gut feeling here is that it's intended to be the base game for a series of addons - Type IX addon, Type XXI addon, British U Class addon etc etc - not unlike the 'Rise of Flight' model. If SH5 sells well enough (Hmmm ..) its projected development might have been seen as a cash cow. All speculation. :hmmm:

[U-Bones]

I though they had opened up all the AI scripts to modding with this release? I thought that was the big excitement about "enhanced modability"? Don't scare me.

For the first time in the franchise, the AI is contained in mod-able scripts.

[Faamecanic]

Very good question. My hope is, Ubisoft will focus on these major issues, the stuff modders cannot fix, if they decide to work on a 2nd patch.

For me, the AI is the biggest non-moddable issue with the game. I can ignore the weak/ineffective RPG stuff, I can see the game being modded to 1945, and I can live with one type of U-boat. For me to get repeated enjoyment out of the game, the escort AI needs to be improved, and other ship AI as well, so we do not have to see AI ships doing crazy things like ramming docks and running off into the woods.


Well said Neal.....

I would also say the lack of Historicallty correct cargo ships..... I mean a Liberty Cargo ship in 1939???? O-Rly??? And like someone else said.... only three types of ships??

And Radar in 1939 on by Uboat?? And Sonar??

Couple these with the craptastic UI and broke morale.... sorry but the realism is so far gone now I just cant play it...even with all the new eye-candy. I would have rather they worked on tweaking SH4 for a complete Uboat campaign then release this rubbish. The reason I stopeed playing SH4 was because the realism (or lack thereof..sub on rails, crewmen without eyes) totally ruined the game experience for me.

[Hans Schultz]

for me the deal breaker is the lack of a true auto TDC

[Glock17]

The sink so many battleship objectives :S

[Webster]

The other thing that intrigues me about this strange release is the "only one sub" thing. My own gut feeling here is that it's intended to be the base game for a series of addons - Type IX addon, Type XXI addon, British U Class addon etc etc - not unlike the 'Rise of Flight' model. If SH5 sells well enough (Hmmm ..) its projected development might have been seen as a cash cow. All speculation. :hmmm:


well there is the typeII and typeXI in AI versions so im thinking its ready made for those to be tweaked to non AI versions that can be added as a mod, but maybe im assuming too much there but im sure if it can be done it will :up:

heck i'd be happy to replace some of the 7's with those two boats if thats the only way to get more types playable

[Onkel Neal]

I find it strange that Neal himself doesn't know wether or not we're getting a second Patch at this stage. :hmmm: I was hoping it would be released any minute and Neal hasn't heard through the grapevine if it's even in develpoment :o


I know what I hear, but until I see it, I am not going out on a limb with unconditional support. Did that with SH4, not my turn to do it again (Ubi's turn). :)




Originally Posted by U-Bones
I though they had opened up all the AI scripts to modding with this release? I thought that was the big excitement about "enhanced modability"? Don't scare me.

For the first time in the franchise, the AI is contained in mod-able scripts.


That may be true, Bones. But I don't know if moddable scripts can fix this kind of AI behavior. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUcDi90TQZI&hd=1) :06:

.

[NefariousKoel]

The only thing keeping me from buying it is the 'online' requirement. Nothing reported so far looks like it can't be fixed, and it seems like the game has a lot to offer in the long run.

:yeah:
I'm with Steve.

[mcarlsonus]

I agree with Neal and others: the AI has been destroyed beyond belief - even when running 100% realism! I also wonder what happened to the formerly HUGE catalog of shipping !! Where're my fishing boats, my coasters...??

Know what I miss and what I haven't seen since SH3? The ability to manually set torpedo depth accurately so's one can use the magnetic trigger effectively and bust the target's back (er, "keel" for you purists!)

Overall, considering it appears Ubi, "threw out the baby with the bathwater" here, trashing even those things that added to the game and in the category, "ain't broke; don't fix," I suspect this was the last and final installment in the Silent Hunter saga. I'd be surprised if we even see another patch. As far as the stuff still showing up in the code, like the other sub types, these are all just left overs from previous versions that were left due to poor housekeeping. Nothing more...

[KL-alfman]

if moddable scripts can fix this kind of AI behavior. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUcDi90TQZI&hd=1) :06:

.



ouch!
that hurts.
vids like that are what hurt the sales and the prestige of the franchise.
(not the holding out crowd aka whiners aka crybabies)

[Decoman]

Which are the real deal breakers of SH5 ????

Why do you ask?

[mcarlsonus]

OMG! I just watched it (the video on YouTube mentioned above)! That's bloody AWFUL !!! UBI - YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES !!!!

[mookiemookie]

That may be true, Bones. But I don't know if moddable scripts can fix this kind of AI behavior. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUcDi90TQZI&hd=1) :06:

.

I couldn't resist: http://bit.ly/cFzCRv

[KL-alfman]

great tunes! :haha:
thx mookiemookie

[mookiemookie]

That song truly does make anything funny. :03:

[mcarlsonus]

I couldn't resist: http://bit.ly/cFzCRv

Destroyer Captain: Benny Hill!

GREAT mash-up! Now if THAT don't get Ubi's attention, nothing will!

[Brag]

I couldn't resist: http://bit.ly/cFzCRv

Bwa haha haha hoochie :haha::har::woot::har::haha::woot:

[IanC]

It's thread like these that make me not want to touch SH5 with a 10 foot pole.
Maybe in a couple of years.

[alexradu89]

10/10 because of the song :up:

[Sailor Steve]

Well, I just watched the video, and that is indeed depressing. Still, I have hopes that it will be fixed, and I'll still buy it once they let me play it.

[KL-alfman]

and that is indeed depressing.


hmm, :hmmm:

as funny as the vid is, so sad it is in a way .....

[janh]

I couldn't resist: http://bit.ly/cFzCRv

That is a really good one!!!! Awesome!

[Nisgeis]

Exploded ships in harbour has been a feature of SH for quite some time now... SH4 had smokey bouncy destroyers jumping up and down on factories... did SH3? SH4 even had Japanese ships in your starting port...

[sergei]

That may be true, Bones. But I don't know if moddable scripts can fix this kind of AI behavior. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUcDi90TQZI&hd=1) :06:

Oh man alive.
I wanted to laugh at that video but I couldn't.
It's frikkin depressing.

[SubV]

Here's the link to the youtube video that illustrates a very serious, gamebreaking bug in SH5:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h56zkBKIQH4&fmt=22

This issue cannot be fixed with modding.

Discussion here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=166310

[horsa]

Quote:
Originally Posted by horsa http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/haylazblue/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1336580#post1336580)
Which are the real deal breakers of SH5 ????

Why do you ask?

Because I'm interested in game design. I'm not a hard core gamer who'll play out all the missions and campaigns so I lack perspective.

I'd like to see SH5 succeed because it looks so good and has a 3D walkabout sub. This is one hell of a jump forward but my fear is that the franchise will end here if SH5 dives (unintended pun) because it has too many terminal flaws in it. It strikes me that some are patchable and some are moddable but its the deal breakers that worry me.


OMG that video looks awful :wah:

[Onkel Neal]

I'd like to see SH5 succeed because it looks so good and has a 3D walkabout sub. This is one hell of a jump forward but my fear is that the franchise will end here if SH5 dives (unintended pun) because it has too many terminal flaws in it. It strikes me that some are patchable and some are moddable but its the deal breakers that worry me.



You and me both, brother.

[SteamWake]

I'm going to over look bugs, mods, and the drm contriversy altogether beacause frankly I tire of all that.......

Whats missing is what I believe the developers were striving for but ran out of time and money.

What is that? A sense of comradship and immersion.

WTF? Okay well its cool that xx has a brother on the Bismark... It's a shame that xx wife is sick.

Notice something there I cant remember a single name. It's an empty shell of a vague attempt to inject personal interaction and an RPG element into a genre that doesent lend itself to an RPG.

A great idea but it is not fully realized and falls flat on its face.

[pythos]

Sh3 to me, had no deal breaking things. Most of the problems were dealt with with mods (yes even Sh3 was rife with bugs) or patches.

sh4 to me was dead. This had one major deal killer for me. The crew management system that was programmed to forget to clear the bridge when the sub was under water. The animated crew would leave the bridge, but their programs were still there. The water and the pressure did not effect them....but the bombs or depth charges killed them. In order to prevent this on every dive you had to one by on drag the crew to the rest areas, or other areas of the sub (Sh3 handled surface crew positions and underwater positions automatically. Why this system was not implemented into 4 is beyond me.) This issue was never dealt with. Other things with four was the near complete lack of hull creaks as the boat descended, though not a deal killer, it was definitely a realism killer.

Now Sh5. Visually stunning...but why oh why did they mess with the interface? That was never something any of the community made comments about. This took up development time that could have been dedicated to other stuff.

For me an immersion killer is how the engines sound. Increase speed: volume goes up for the propellers, motors, diesels, and waves....not the frequency. This is the same for speed decreases. What the hell did they mess with this for anyway? No one complained about how the engines actually behaved.....like engines, not sound systems.

DRM.......nuff said.

I like the RPG aspect, I don't like it's implementation. Why on earth did they remove the commands for the deck gun and AA gun targeting? I like having interaction with your crew, I don't like how the conversation progress is not recorded resulting in you having to start over if you have to reload, either due to DRM issues, or rig issues.

The friendly AI doing suicide runs on docks or shorelines. Dumb. Should have been fixed from sh4.

But, deal killers.....I can see none at this time. At least on my rig the game is VERY stable compared to both sh3 and sh4 (sh4 crashed continuously )

The lack of different sub classes is self explanatory. Look at the work put into the interior of one class. This work is fantastic, if simple looking....it in no ways is. I have a feeling IF the community is not overly critical (too late?) we will see add ons like U boat add on for 4 coming down the pike to complete the game. Who knows.

I do like how the convoys DO NOT crazily maneuver after a torpedo strike...this was so unrealistic. Freighters and tankers DO NOT maneuver like that. They are huge and take a lot to maneuver, and trying to do that inside a tightly packed convoy could result in collisions.

I think sh5 is COMPLETELY salvageable what with the devs and the modders.

Give it time. Quite griping and enjoy what may be the last incarnation of this series. (I know if I were the devs and saw some of the stuff people have written about my work I would have said eff you, and moved on)

[IanC]

Quite griping and enjoy what may be the last incarnation of this series. (I know if I were the devs and saw some of the stuff people have written about my work I would have said eff you, and moved on)

You have that backwards don't you? Because after seeing the state they gave us SH4 and now 5, I'm saying eff you to them, and moving on.

[robbo180265]

Sh3 to me, had no deal breaking things. Most of the problems were dealt with with mods (yes even Sh3 was rife with bugs) or patches.

sh4 to me was dead. This had one major deal killer for me. The crew management system that was programmed to forget to clear the bridge when the sub was under water. The animated crew would leave the bridge, but their programs were still there. The water and the pressure did not effect them....but the bombs or depth charges killed them. In order to prevent this on every dive you had to one by on drag the crew to the rest areas, or other areas of the sub (Sh3 handled surface crew positions and underwater positions automatically. Why this system was not implemented into 4 is beyond me.) This issue was never dealt with. Other things with four was the near complete lack of hull creaks as the boat descended, though not a deal killer, it was definitely a realism killer.

Now Sh5. Visually stunning...but why oh why did they mess with the interface? That was never something any of the community made comments about. This took up development time that could have been dedicated to other stuff.

For me an immersion killer is how the engines sound. Increase speed: volume goes up for the propellers, motors, diesels, and waves....not the frequency. This is the same for speed decreases. What the hell did they mess with this for anyway? No one complained about how the engines actually behaved.....like engines, not sound systems.

DRM.......nuff said.

I like the RPG aspect, I don't like it's implementation. Why on earth did they remove the commands for the deck gun and AA gun targeting? I like having interaction with your crew, I don't like how the conversation progress is not recorded resulting in you having to start over if you have to reload, either due to DRM issues, or rig issues.

The friendly AI doing suicide runs on docks or shorelines. Dumb. Should have been fixed from sh4.

But, deal killers.....I can see none at this time. At least on my rig the game is VERY stable compared to both sh3 and sh4 (sh4 crashed continuously )

The lack of different sub classes is self explanatory. Look at the work put into the interior of one class. This work is fantastic, if simple looking....it in no ways is. I have a feeling IF the community is not overly critical (too late?) we will see add ons like U boat add on for 4 coming down the pike to complete the game. Who knows.

I do like how the convoys DO NOT crazily maneuver after a torpedo strike...this was so unrealistic. Freighters and tankers DO NOT maneuver like that. They are huge and take a lot to maneuver, and trying to do that inside a tightly packed convoy could result in collisions.

I think sh5 is COMPLETELY salvageable what with the devs and the modders.

Give it time. Quite griping and enjoy what may be the last incarnation of this series. (I know if I were the devs and saw some of the stuff people have written about my work I would have said eff you, and moved on)

Excellent post and pretty much sums up the way I feel about the game too.

@ IanC -Moving on where exactly?

[IanC]

@ IanC -Moving on where exactly?

I was turning his post around, I guess I need to explain that to you. If you also want a literal answer, I've actually moved my focus back to Aces of the Deep.

[robbo180265]

I was turning his post around, I guess I need to explain that to you. If you also want a literal answer, I've actually moved my focus back to Aces of the Deep.

Fair enough - realised how daft it sounded after I typed it lol.

I've always got Eve to play so it's not the end of the world if I do decided to stop playing, I just think it will be a real shame if SHV ends up being the last WW2 subsim and without support from Ubisoft that's a real possibility.

That said I agree with most about the DRM and it really really needs a couple of patches to survive.

I guess its up to Ubisoft now.

[Nafod81]

That may be true, Bones. But I don't know if moddable scripts can fix this kind of AI behavior. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUcDi90TQZI&hd=1):06:

.

Neal if that was, and I believe it was indeed you, NICE WORK.

[Seeadler]

I never get the feeling, yes this is it to be at that time on one of the u-boots, so it is roughly not the feeling told in stories of veterans told in many books.

It seems to me too much the element of a fantasy story, like Bethesda Oblivion at sea in the times of WWII but never ever reach the quality and presentation of Oblivion.

The game has many good aspects, but not fully developed and/or functional developed to an meaningful result!

[Nafod81]

Here's the link to the youtube video that illustrates a very serious, gamebreaking bug in SH5:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h56zkBKIQH4&fmt=22

This issue cannot be fixed with modding.

Discussion here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=166310


Doesn't it only work on the slow speed setting? I'm unsure if he's firing electric torps or not. Wasn't there a similar speed requirement in SHIII as well?

[THE_MASK]

Inability of crew to spot anything neutral as in SH4
REAL killer that one
May as well not have any neutral shipping out there

Inability to see ANY campaign changes unless start a new career

Both of those suck royal and can only be fixed by the devs AFAIK
Try this.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=165515&highlight=sobers
and this
change in cfg main
TimeStop=0
RealTime=1
LandProximity=8,64
CriticalDamage=1,256
CrewEfficiency=128
AirEnemyDetected=1,32
SoundEffects=2
CharacterAnim=32
FriendDetected=1,64
EnemyDetected=1,64
RadioReport=1,1
Particles=32
PrayState=1,32
HunterState=1,32
3DRender=32
Maximum=256,64 change the green number to whatever max you like but keep the red number as 64 and only use to leave port etc .

change when in port

[McBeck]

I though they had opened up all the AI scripts to modding with this release? I thought that was the big excitement about "enhanced modability"? Don't scare me.The AI can modded to some point, but its bound to be linked up some some code. The coded cant be modded...

[Catfish]

Online requirement is the deal breaker.

Greetings,
Catfish

[Decoman]

I think the buggy sound effects for walking and running inside the uboat is really annoying. Hehe it sounds like someone is cartoonishly tripping across the plated floor. I really want to see this corrected.

Edit: Happens when the sound effect overlap or something, not sure what is happening.

[horsa]

Alexandru89
5. crap systems

I'm interested to know more about this :)

[HundertzehnGustav]

SH5 was a train crash. Right ?

Morale was broken.
too many unnecessary changes to the UI,
very little information on what to do or how to do it ,
character dialogue tediously limited
lack of sub damage control
and so on ....

But hey . Wait. What is really missing ?
A lot of stuff is in there but either underdeveloped (like the character dialogue) or inexplicably hidden away (like compass and 'depth under keel'). All moddable.


Which are the real deal breakers of SH5 ????

all of the above should be in.

famous car analogy
they offer you a car with no steering wheel and no left side brakes, no manueal and really weird and unuseable dashboard dials, and that is a deal breaker to me any day.

and no, even tho i have tools to fix it, i pay the seller for a complete product.

am i stupid or What?

[mookiemookie]

all of the above should be in.

famous car analogy
they offer you a car with no steering wheel and no left side brakes, no manueal and really weird and unuseable dashboard dials, and that is a deal breaker to me any day.

and no, even tho i have tools to fix it, i pay the seller for a complete product.

am i stupid or What?

No, you're not stupid. But you are ignoring the original question.

Forget the ethics for a moment ( Ubi sucks, unfinished product, why rely on unpaid modders, yaddy ya yaddy ya ......) .
What features are really missing or annoyingly obtrusive. So much so that they are real deal breakers for you? Things that should be in (or not in), which no amount of modding can put right ( like the red triangle in SH2).

[HundertzehnGustav]

Unfinished product, why rely on unpaid modders, yaddy ya yaddy ya

wich means ignore all problems SHV has?
(--> not to mention their DRM)

why start this thread and ask for opinions?
if Unfinished product, why rely on unpaid modders, yaddy ya yaddy ya is no deal breaker, then tell me:

what is?

(--> not to mention their DRM)

and i honestly ask that question.

The way the question s phrased, everything bad about SHV (Unfinished product, why rely on unpaid modders, yaddy ya yaddy ya) can not be named as a "deal breaker".

I find it funny...
if

Unfinished product, why rely on unpaid modders, yaddy ya yaddy ya

is no deal breaker... then maybe it is time to wake up for some people?

ela-ali-baba is making relatively good money, and his team as well.IMO...
instead of collectinbg welfare checks.

------------------------

I see what the OP is trying to achieve: he is trying to draw a list of things the community needs to work on, he has a positive "pro-work", "lets-get-it-done" attitude. Focus on the future, stop the ranting about the past.
Still, i shake my head and refuse to buy a product as deeply flawed as this one.

[robbo180265]

I see what the OP is trying to achieve: he is trying to draw a list of things the community needs to work on, he has a positive "pro-work", "lets-get-it-done" attitude. Focus on the future, stop the ranting about the past.
Still, i shake my head and refuse to buy a product as deeply flawed as this one.

He's trying to get a reasoned debate going about issues ingame, he's trying to do this without the usual trolling

You've somehow missed that point:damn:

[tommyk]

> Are there any real deal breakers in SH5 ?

For me the answer is simple: all of it...

DRM, Bugs & Game-Design are not what I will spend my money on...

too much WoW: Bring me 12 spromkis, no wait, sink me 500 ships :rotfl2:

[HundertzehnGustav]

No... i did NOT miss that.0 I understood. proof:

"i see what OP is trying to achieve:..."

no matter, thanks for telling lme i am trolling (and by definition, am a troll)

o put it more harshly:
the OP is blind as hell, and the community has gotten the shaft up their collective arses this time.

and yet they (okay... the OP) are/is trying to stay positive... stop the bleeding.

That is a situation where i would avise "seeing someone" or "taking legal action" instead of "licking its own wounds". Yum.

:88):doh:

or if it is indeed "licking its own wounds"... then even the question is useless:
-Players have pointed out the problems, and keep doing so all the time
-Ubi is still releaseing minor updates (i guess?)
-the problems listed must be modded
-there is a mods section.


Bottom line:
even the OP question( i applaude your positive attitude, Sir)
no matter how good its intention is


is Flawed (can not list the fundamental problems)



useless (there is bug reporting and modding/fixing going on next door)

at the same time.
So why ask the question?

Forgive me my rather black and white way of seeing things... This time around, i see no real way to do otherwise.

[robbo180265]

No... i did NOT miss that.0 I understood. proof:

"i see what OP is trying to achieve:..."

no matter, thanks for telling lme i am trolling (and by definition, am a troll)

o put it more harshly:
the OP is blind as hell, and the community has gotten the shaft up their collective arses this time.

and yet they (okay... the OP) are/is trying to stay positive... stop the bleeding.

That is a situation where i would avise "seeing someone" or "taking legal action" instead of "licking its own wounds". Yum.

:88):doh:

or if it is indeed "licking its own wounds"... then even the question is useless:
-Players have pointed out the problems, and keep doing so all the time
-Ubi is still releaseing minor updates (i guess?)
-the problems listed must be modded
-there is a mods section.


Bottom line:
even the OP question( i applaude your positive attitude, Sir)
no matter how good its intention is


is Flawed (can not list the fundamental problems)


useless (there is bug reporting and modding/fixing going on next door)
at the same time.
So why ask the question?

Forgive me my rather black and white way of seeing things... This time around, i see no real way to do otherwise.

Sorry didn't see you reply right away. I was too busy playing my bugged and broken unplayable game (and enjoying playing it too):03:

I think the point you are missing (still) is that the game needs work , no-one can deny that. But most of us who actually own the game are still enjoying playing it.

I'll go back to my bugged game now:salute:

[janh]

Sorry didn't see you reply right away. I was too busy playing my bugged and broken unplayable game (and enjoying playing it too):03:

I think the point you are missing (still) is that the game needs work , no-one can deny that. But most of us who actually own the game are still enjoying playing it.

I'll go back to my bugged game now:salute:

And that's why I still am hopeful that it will be a worthy sequel to SHIII one day. And why I keep checking the forum for a "big announcement"...

[mookiemookie]

No... i did NOT miss that.0 I understood.

No, you're still missing the point. This thread isn't about what you're going on about. You can have your opinion, but the topic of this thread isn't about what you're opining on. It's poor forum etiquette to disregard a thread's topic and hijack it with your own subject.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Sooo okay?

i re-red the first post, wich defines what this thread is about.
Hmm.
what are the deal breakers? what prevents people like me to buy the game?

Quite a bit of deal breakers here imo...

Disregard the half product, disregard the Ubi bashing, disregard the yadda yadda...

There are no more Deal breakers any more...?

The first post gives me a question to answer.

What are the Deal breakers?

My answer is:

The way the first post is worded, the way my answers are limited, i am "pushed" to admit that the game is good, has no problems and works as advertized. That is has no deal breakers, because the actual deal breakers are banned from the answer list.

A) that aint my opinion
B) that aint other peoples opinion
C) the question sugests an answer to the user reading said question.
D) that leaves no room for discussion

and also included in my answer is:
why ask such a question if there are no possible deal breakers? sort of "WTF!? :doh:" spontaneous reaction.

Does that make me a Troll?
:hmmm:
:D

cooool.:haha:

[Heretic]

Some people's mountains are other people's molehills and verse visa.

It's subjective.

[HundertzehnGustav]

SH5 was a train crash. Right ?

Morale was broken.
too many unnecessary changes to the UI,
very little information on what to do or how to do it ,
character dialogue tediously limited
lack of sub damage control
and so on ....

But hey . Wait. What is really missing ?
A lot of stuff is in there but either underdeveloped (like the character dialogue) or inexplicably hidden away (like compass and 'depth under keel'). All moddable.

Forget the ethics for a moment ( Ubi sucks, unfinished product, why rely on unpaid modders, yaddy ya yaddy ya ......) .
What features are really missing or annoyingly obtrusive. So much so that they are real deal breakers for you? Things that should be in (or not in), which no amount of modding can put right ( like the red triangle in SH2).

Which are the real deal breakers of SH5 ????

so let me play the game...



AI of all kind do not use torpedoes

Planes, DDs, Torpedo Boats, Schnellboats, Submarines...
no progress in 5 years since shIII



Wolfpacks

clearly a interaction with BDU/CFlottilla command/inter-uboot operations and communication is needed and was desired.
Nobody seems to have listened


Substandard

The Supermods of 2008 and 2009 have set the standard to a modern Uboat game.
Units, functions, Weaponry,
variations in ship liveries, ship types,
Radio messages,
User interfaces,
Sounds
AI routines
documentation

are still well below what supermods of SHIII era offer.

I expect a new product to at least "take a look" at what the community implemented over the last...3?4?5? years, and "read" their wishlists.
I expect that a devteam, because the persons are the same ones, to be smart and open their eyes.

Until shortly before release i believed the creators of the game to build on things like GWX or LSH. It was only few months before Day X that we were offered info about the re-definition of the series, primarily based on systems, to aim for a more personal approach.

Such is clearly not the case. No SHIII 2.0? No Money from me. Broken Deal.

...just 3 things off the top of my head, and not in the "ubi bashing, half game, modders needed category".

My opinion valid now?:D

[Méo]

Sooo okay?

The way I see it, it's quite simple, the OP is looking for ''big features'' that are currently missing (i.e. wolfpacks, type IX, 1944-1945, etc.) and not details and bugs that are underdeveloped or unfinished.

For me I would say wolfpacks (I know there are some files about it in the game, but for the moment, they are missing).

But I'm not saying it's a deal breaker until the game gets more polished.

----

btw, EVERYBODY here knows the DRM thing is a deal breaker for some people, so it's nothing new.

[horsa]

The way the first post is worded, the way my answers are limited, i am "pushed" to admit that the game is good, has no problems and works as advertized. That is has no deal breakers, because the actual deal breakers are banned from the answer list.Not true. Even after the question "forces" you to ditch your main complaint, SH5 still has issues. Some of these may be real deal breakers. That is important because it means that, as a a game, it is indeed a complete turkey.

The question remains open.:)

( added before your latest post 70)

[horsa]

.just 3 things off the top of my head, and not in the "ubi bashing, half game, modders needed category".

My opinion valid now?:D

Yes. Now we can work with that :D

[HundertzehnGustav]

The way I see it, it's quite simple, the OP is looking for ''big features'' that are currently missing (i.e. wolfpacks, type IX, 1944-1945, etc.) and not details and bugs that are underdeveloped or unfinished.

Okay... but then the missing years and content are not valid... (half finished product)

If i must leave out the underddevelopped stuff... i have NO answers because "underdevelopped" has such a broad meaning.
Hard call!

Wolfpacks are underdevelopped too... they are missing!
-->Wolfpacs are Missing... the game aint finished (half product)

AI using torpedoes is underdevelopped too... they just do not have any!
-->AI do not have torpedoes... the game aint finished (half product)

Horsa, dude, you are asking an impossible-to-answer question.:damn:
and that kind of ticks me off, because its a really interesting one to wich i would like to see a few good answers.

What about you show me your line of thinking by answering your own question? I just do not seem to get it.

[EAF274 Johan]

I'll have a go. I do not have much knowledge of the true modding potential of SH5. I know it's supposed to be big, but just how big I have no clue. So forgive me if some of my game breakers can be modded.

- Weather, AI damage, map markings not saved in Save games
- Intrusive "synchronising" messages even when I have this option turned off
- No Kriegsmarine grid or other detailed coordinates system (degrees in latitude/longitude is not enough)
- Lack of crew animation (not expecting them to run forward during crash dive, but at least I expect to see them cringe when under attack and see them work at repairs like in SH4)
- Lack of detail in the damage system
- No blind spot in hydrophones
- Abrupt patrol endings when macro-mission objectives are fulfilled
- Lack of interaction with BdU via radio
[EDIT: 2 more]
- Immortal officers and no detailed crew management like in SH3/4
- Colliding ships in ports

Given the fact that these features were present in SH3/4 or these issues did not exist (apart from the savegame issue - you'd expect they had fixed that by now), I can only find SH5 to be a step back from its predecessors.

Apart from that, not having a Type II is also a major disappointment for me. I know this can probably be modded in, but who knows how long that will take.

[Méo]

Wolfpacks are underdevelopped too... they are missing!

So that's why I said

For me I would say wolfpacks (I know there are some files about it in the game, but for the moment, they are missing).

In the end, it all comes down to your interpretation.

[horsa]

dude, you are asking an impossible-to-answer question.:damn:
and that kind of ticks me off, because its a really interesting one to wich i would like to see a few good answers.No, it's not impossible. Poster above (Eaf274 ..) and others have been building up the answer.

What about you show me your line of thinking by answering your own question? I just do not seem to get it.
LOL. It would be a pleasure . :DL but it will have to wait a short while. My wife is calling me to dinner.

[robbo180265]

so let me play the game...



AI of all kind do not use torpedoes
Planes, DDs, Torpedo Boats, Schnellboats, Submarines...
no progress in 5 years since shIII



Wolfpacks
clearly a interaction with BDU/CFlottilla command/inter-uboot operations and communication is needed and was desired.
Nobody seems to have listened


Substandard
The Supermods of 2008 and 2009 have set the standard to a modern Uboat game.
Units, functions, Weaponry,
variations in ship liveries, ship types,
Radio messages,
User interfaces,
Sounds
AI routines
documentation

are still well below what supermods of SHIII era offer.

I expect a new product to at least "take a look" at what the community implemented over the last...3?4?5? years, and "read" their wishlists.
I expect that a devteam, because the persons are the same ones, to be smart and open their eyes.

Until shortly before release i believed the creators of the game to build on things like GWX or LSH. It was only few months before Day X that we were offered info about the re-definition of the series, primarily based on systems, to aim for a more personal approach.

Such is clearly not the case. No SHIII 2.0? No Money from me. Broken Deal.

...just 3 things off the top of my head, and not in the "ubi bashing, half game, modders needed category".

My opinion valid now?:D

Very valid and well written.

[janh]

The Supermods of 2008 and 2009 have set the standard to a modern Uboat game.
Units, functions, Weaponry,
variations in ship liveries, ship types,
Radio messages,
User interfaces,
Sounds
AI routines
documentation

are still well below what supermods of SHIII era offer.

I expect a new product to at least "take a look" at what the community implemented over the last...3?4?5? years, and "read" their wishlists.
I expect that a devteam, because the persons are the same ones, to be smart and open their eyes.

Until shortly before release i believed the creators of the game to build on things like GWX or LSH. It was only few months before Day X that we were offered info about the re-definition of the series, primarily based on systems, to aim for a more personal approach.

Such is clearly not the case. No SHIII 2.0? No Money from me. Broken Deal.

All correct points (also the others I removed from your quote)!

I don't recall how many people wrote (barked at me...) that mods are no competition to a commercial products, but this is another clear evidence that they are. They enhance the features, quality and longevity of another game, an older release, which than competes with newer releases. If you want to play, you will naturally spent your scarce time with the best game on the genre there is.

In case of SHV this leads to internal competition with SHIII and SHIV enhanced by GWX, LSH, (almost wrote LSD;-) ) OM etc. mods, i.e. basically competition with modders. And if Ubisoft wants to release and sell new franchise more regularly in the future, this longevity (and hence the modding capabilities) may sooner or later become a target of the strategic marketing people...

I think it is pretty obvious that excellent modding is a direct competition. Or do I miss anything crucial?

[robbo180265]

All correct points (also the others I removed from your quote)!

I don't recall how many people wrote (barked at me...) that mods are no competition to a commercial products, but this is another clear evidence that they are. They enhance the features, quality and longevity of another game, an older release, which than competes with newer releases. If you want to play, you will naturally spent your scarce time with the best game on the genre there is.

In case of SHV this leads to internal competition with SHIII and SHIV enhanced by GWX, LSH, (almost wrote LSD;-) ) OM etc. mods, i.e. basically competition with modders. And if Ubisoft wants to release and sell new franchise more regularly in the future, this longevity (and hence the modding capabilities) may sooner or later become a target of the strategic marketing people...

I think it is pretty obvious that excellent modding is a direct competition. Or do I miss anything crucial?

I don't know. I'd argue that modability is what has sold this game. I would never have bought it had I not been aware of Subsims excellent modders, and more importantly their abilities.

I would imagine most casual gamers are steering clear , because of the DRM stink, the awful reviews on Amazon (normally I listen to any reviews before buying) the reported bugs.

Modability may be the only thing keeping SHV afloat, had I not had access to mods like the moral mod, the compass mod, church's keyboard commands then this game would be unplayable.

[Bilge_Rat]

no real deal breakers for me, but what do I know, I just play the game.

Anyway, I just wanted to show you all my latest project:


http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/3929/pq17002.jpg



http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/9147/pq17003.jpg


http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/9694/pq17004.jpg


http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/329/pq17001.jpg


now back to my broken unplayable game...:arrgh!:

[IanC]

Yes, SH5 is very purdy. :roll:

[Iron Budokan]

Yes, SH5 is very purdy. :roll:

lol :haha:

[EAF274 Johan]

I think it is pretty obvious that excellent modding is a direct competition. Or do I miss anything crucial?I've read the same thoughts on Total War forums wrt the poor state of their latest releases (though to be fair, Empire and Napoleon Total War are much more polished products than SH5 is).

Mods do a lot to lengthen the life of games, contributing to a game's status as "classic". It's those titles that a company builds its reputation on (Hence the words "From the makers of..." to market another product). Think of the Microsoft Flight Simulator series, which has a huge modding community, but this never stopped people from buying the next version. Anyone in the games industry with half a brain should see that a thriving modding community is working in their favour. Many publishers acknowledged this by including modding tools or SDK's with their games (MS Flight Sim, The Elder Scrolls, Operation Flashpoint,...) or simply by being helpful by answering questions of modders (ThirdWire flight sims).

IF, on the other hand, your only goal is short-term profit by increasing the number of produced titles regardless of quality, then... well... :down:

[elanaiba]

AI of all kind do not use torpedoes

Planes, DDs, Torpedo Boats, Schnellboats, Submarines...
no progress in 5 years since shIII


I don't understand? Planes have been shooting torpedoes from SH4, while in SH5 there's also AI submarines shooting torpedoes. No progress?

[robbo180265]

I don't understand? Planes have been shooting torpedoes from SH4, while in SH5 there's also AI submarines shooting torpedoes. No progress?

As I understand it at the moment the AI subs fire their torpedoes and the torpedoes sink. There's a screenshot somewhere of it. All in all the "out of the box" AI is pretty poor.

[Decoman]

Oh I want to add that there is no character model of yourself aka the captain/kaleun. A little weird imo when using the external camera.

[KL-alfman]

as for the SH5 GUI - it sure looks neat and clean and "modern".
but have a look here:
(hope, Makman doesn't mind posting this pic of v3 of his SH3-GUI here)

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5793/227g.jpg (http://img220.imageshack.us/i/227g.jpg/)

might be, I'm already too old-fashioned for the "new stuff", but if I ever get the possibility to play SH5 I'd strip it down to the core and adjust 2D-maps like these.
can you imagine what it looks like (i.e. the antagonism) when dragging out the KM-Angriffscheibe in the SH5-map??

[IanC]

I don't understand? Planes have been shooting torpedoes from SH4, while in SH5 there's also AI submarines shooting torpedoes. No progress?

As I understand it at the moment the AI subs fire their torpedoes and the torpedoes sink.

Insert facepalm picture here.

[horsa]

Sorry for this massive post. HundertzehnGustav asked me what my answer would be to my own question. This depended on your responses which I must thank you all for.

I've split it into five steps. If you'd rather chew your leg off than follow the whole thing through try jumping to STEP FIVE. :DL


If you're going to pick holes in it or otherwise throw insults at me I won't be too impressed if you haven't read it all. :nope:

As far as possible the wording in the text of the issues in the list is that of the posters.


FIRST STEP - This is a Full list of "issues" as posted by authors on the thread up to 8.00 pm on Sunday March 28.

Apologies if I've missed any. I've added a few of my own .
I'm not a veteran of SH3/SH4 so go easy on any naivity.

Full List




'online' requirement.
The Type VII only deal is very bad.
The crew management (not managing transfers and whatnot) real captains had to deal with losing key personnel and having green recruits after every patrol.
there seems to be only 3 types of merchant to sink
I can only play till '43
I'd also like to be able to select the start date (like SHIII) instead of having to start in '39.
crap systems and crew management
AI is the biggest non-moddable issue with the game. the escort AI needs to be improved, and other ship AI as well, so we do not have to see AI ships doing crazy things like ramming docks and running off into the woods.
Inability of crew to spot anything neutral as in SH4
REAL killer that one
May as well not have any neutral shipping out there. The whole point of having 'no map contact updates' switched off is that you could well sink a friendly unless you properly identified who you were firing at.
Inability to see ANY campaign changes unless start a new career
lack of a true auto TDC
sink so many battleship objectives.
ability to manually set torpedo depth accurately so's one can use the magnetic trigger effectively and bust the target's back
vague attempt to inject personal interaction and an RPG element into a genre that doesent lend itself to an RPG.
For me an immersion killer is how the engines sound. Increase speed: volume goes up for the propellers, motors, diesels, and waves....not the frequency.
Morale system is broken
Damage Effects and Control are badly implemented.
Weather, AI damage, map markings not saved in Save games
No torpedo AI of any kind.
No Wolfpacks
No BDU / interaction.
Intrusive "synchronising" messages even when I have this option turned off
No Kriegsmarine grid
Lack of crew animation
No blind spot in hydrophones
Abrupt patrol endings when macro-mission objectives are fulfilled

[horsa]

SECOND STEP - OK let's weed a few out.

Special Case

1. 'online' requirement.
The con argument says it's intrusive/restrictive/immoral.
The pro argument says this is the future. Without it PC game development might cease.
For some players this is a complete no no . No compromise. End of story.

They can leave the room. None of what follows will be of any interest to them.


Almost Certainly Moddable:-

4. there seems to be only 3 types of merchant to sink

5.I can only play till '43

6. I'd also like to be able to select the start date (like SHIII) instead of having to start in '39.

12. sink so many battleship objectives.

23. No Kriegsmarine grid


Moddable to some extent :-

2. The Type VII only deal is very bad.

9. Inability of crew to spot anything neutral as in SH4
May as well not have any neutral shipping out there.

[horsa]

THIRD STEP - This leaves us with the unmoddable issues.:-

List

8. AI is the biggest non-moddable issue with the game. the escort AI needs to be improved, and other ship AI as well, so we do not have to see AI ships doing crazy things like ramming docks and running off into the woods.

3.The crew management (not managing transfers and whatnot) real captains had to deal with losing key personnel and having green recruits after every patrol.

7. crap systems and crew management

10. Inability to see ANY campaign changes until restart.

11. lack of a true auto TDC

10. Inability to see ANY campaign changes until restart.

13. ability to manually set torpedo depth accurately so's one can use the magnetic trigger effectively and bust the target's back

14. vague attempt to inject personal interaction and an RPG element into a genre that doesent lend itself to an RPG.

15. For me an immersion killer is how the engines sound. Increase speed: volume goes up for the propellers, motors, diesels, and waves....not the frequency.

16 Morale system is broken

17 Damage Effects and Control are badly implemented.

27.Weather, AI damage, map markings not saved in Save games

28.No torpedo AI of any kind.

29. No Wolfpacks

30.No BDU / interaction.

31. Intrusive "synchronising" messages even when I have this option turned off

32. No Kriegsmarine grid

33. Lack of crew animation

34. No blind spot in hydrophones

35. Abrupt patrol endings when macro-mission objectives are fulfilled

[horsa]

FOURTH STEP - Now we get amongst the potential deal breakers - a bit more weeding

So if UBI did not patch any of these features how many would make the game unplayable for you ? If they do then they are deal breakers.

To simplify things a bit further I would drop the following from my deal breakers list.
Its not because they are not important . Its just that I could live with them
Its a personal choice. It might be different for you.

Posters comments are now abbreviated .

13. no accurate manual torpedo depth
16. no morale system ( disable it)
15. no engine volume variation.
10. Inability to see ANY campaign changes until restart.
22.Intrusive "synchronising" messages even when I have this option turned off
25.No blind spot in hydrophones
26.Abrupt patrol endings when macro-mission objectives are fulfilled


If they are deal breakers for you then I guess that's you out.

I'd have to leave out 7. Crap systems because the author wasn't specific

Which leaves us with :-

3. No Crew Management.
8. Issues with AI
11. No true Auto TDC.
14. Genre that doesn't lend itself to RPG ?
17 Damage Effects and Control are badly implemented.
18.Weather, AI damage, map markings not saved in Save games
19.No torpedo AI of any kind.
20.No Wolfpacks
21.No BDU / interaction.
24.Lack of crew animation

[horsa]

FIFTH STEP - Are these real deal breakers?

Are they so bad you will either not buy the game or put it back on the shelf and play SH3 instead ?

The wild card is some issues might be patched. Others look to be design features and are therefore here to stay.

These are some notes on each one. You decide if they are real deal breakers for you.

Lack of Crew Management looks like a design decision. I can't see how that as patchable. Deal breaker ?

The Auto TDC system is a design featureand has been changed to a point and shoot system that needs practice. For the casual player this has become more difficult than "lock on and hit target nearly every time". Good or bad ?
For Manual TDC folk it's irrelevant.
If you are an auto TDC guy is this a deal breaker for you ?

RPG approach is another design feature. Does a sub sim lend itself to RPG ? Wasn't this already in SH3 and SH4 when you issued orders to crew members? The SH5 system is different and doesn't work well. Isn't this scripted ? In which case it becomes moddable.
Maybe the author was refering to the whole game centred on the FPS Captain. Tiresome necessity or hard core realism ?
Is this different system a deal breaker for you ?

Damage effects/control looks broken. Patchable ? Moddable ?
Deal breaker ?

Poor AI is the bane of a lot of games. From what I hear some AI is good but then you have DDs that run off into the woods and ships that crash into docks and explode. This looks like a patchable issue. Some posters have reported that some ( if not all) AI is scripted and therefore moddable. We'll see.
Deal breaker?

No Wolfpacks. Design feature. UBI's reluctance to take notice of the views of Subsim members and their mods of the last 5 years is not the issue here however valid the arguments. Sorry.
Deal breaker ?

No BDU radio traffic . Design feature. Same as above.

Lack of crew animation. I remember discussing the value of attempts at human avatars with Hitman and others many years ago. One school of thought was if they didn't work well they should be left out. If you can ignore them then you're still in. If not it's a deal breaker

No torpedo AI of any kind. Design feature. Same as above.

Weather, AI damage, map markings not saved in Save games. Doesn't this make saves useless ?Patchable ?
Deal breaker ?


CONCLUSION

I have to admit even the shortened list is depressing - and I guess there are many other issues not mentioned yet.

Is it a deal breaker for me ?

I just set sail, enjoy the immersive FP 3D walkabout, ogle the unbelievable graphics and make the best of a modded and imperfect operating environment ( not unlike the problems of U-boat captains actually).

For the moment its very satisfying and I know the modders won't let me down.

How long it lasts probably depends on the patching.

[Vikinger]

Sorry if i didnt read the hole thread but thing that annoys me despite to the "normal missing thing"
Its the diversity of ships. And foremost, Why does not any ship have external cargo???

[horsa]

Hi Vikinger. That's fine. Just keep adding to the list and making any other comments . Reading the whole thing isn't obligatory.:DL

I don't blame you ;)

[Vikinger]

Haha Horsa, This list will continue. :D
If u need any help to fix anything just give me a shout, Iam not that expert modder fan but i know some ins and outs :)

[Vikinger]

FIFTH STEP - Are these real deal breakers?

Are they so bad you will either not buy the game or put it back on the shelf and play SH3 instead ?

The wild card is some issues might be patched. Others look to be design features and are therefore here to stay.

These are some notes on each one. You decide if they are real deal breakers for you.

Lack of Crew Management looks like a design decision. I can't see how that as patchable. Deal breaker ?

Crew management is a new thing in SH5 whit the moral thing. I think it can be fixed whit tweaks from the modders but a lot of things have to take in account for it to work properly, Both for your crew and the AI crew.

The Auto TDC system is a design featureand has been changed to a point and shoot system that needs practice. For the casual player this has become more difficult than "lock on and hit target nearly every time". Good or bad ?
For Manual TDC folk it's irrelevant.
If you are an auto TDC guy is this a deal breaker for you ?

Auto TDC is simple, but the measurement you get is annoying. Can be fixed by a mod that converts thos 1,2.3 dots and make the line inteo a measuerment line instead, if 2 meats 2 then fire, if 5,4 meats 5,4 then fire.

RPG approach is another design feature. Does a sub sim lend itself to RPG ? Wasn't this already in SH3 and SH4 when you issued orders to crew members? The SH5 system is different and doesn't work well. Isn't this scripted ? In which case it becomes moddable.
Maybe the author was refering to the whole game centred on the FPS Captain. Tiresome necessity or hard core realism ?
Is this different system a deal breaker for you ?

RPG must be changed, I simply must change the patrol objects.
And it can be done by modding the layers and goals

Damage effects/control looks broken. Patchable ? Moddable ?
Deal breaker ?

Nothing to say on this

Poor AI is the bane of a lot of games. From what I hear some AI is good but then you have DDs that run off into the woods and ships that crash into docks and explode. This looks like a patchable issue. Some posters have reported that some ( if not all) AI is scripted and therefore moddable. We'll see.
Deal breaker?

In fact, i dont think it so hard to implant a desecent AI, The game use same mechanic from previous games. Even thou they have disabled some functions from let say an destryer escort, But the functions is still there a<nd are just to be enabled and tweaked.

No Wolfpacks. Design feature. UBI's reluctance to take notice of the views of Subsim members and their mods of the last 5 years is not the issue here however valid the arguments. Sorry.
Deal breaker ?

UBI let me down on this.

No BDU radio traffic . Design feature. Same as above.

Lack of crew animation. I remember discussing the value of attempts at human avatars with Hitman and others many years ago. One school of thought was if they didn't work well they should be left out. If you can ignore them then you're still in. If not it's a deal breaker

No torpedo AI of any kind. Design feature. Same as above.

Weather, AI damage, map markings not saved in Save games. Doesn't this make saves useless ?Patchable ?
Deal breaker ?

Thhink this has to do that we have to sace the game online. It does not save the state. Just vital information and when you load a game the weather will start all over. Hard to mod or more impossible.


CONCLUSION

I have to admit even the shortened list is depressing - and I guess there are many other issues not mentioned yet.

Is it a deal breaker for me ?

I just set sail, enjoy the immersive FP 3D walkabout, ogle the unbelievable graphics and make the best of a modded and imperfect operating environment ( not unlike the problems of U-boat captains actually).

For the moment its very satisfying and I know the modders won't let me down.

How long it lasts probably depends on the patching.

Some elements cud be fixed and some not.
Ive made my valid comments in the quote things.

[mookiemookie]

Sorry if i didnt read the hole thread but thing that annoys me despite to the "normal missing thing"
Its the diversity of ships. And foremost, Why does not any ship have external cargo???

The ships carrying war supplies have visible tanks and trucks on the decks. In fact, that's how you tell which ones you're to sink in the "War Supplies" mission in the Happy Times campaign.

[Vikinger]

The ships carrying war supplies have visible tanks and trucks on the decks. In fact, that's how you tell which ones you're to sink in the "War Supplies" mission in the Happy Times campaign.


Oh i never got that far in the game. I more or less lost intresst cuz of the campaign mode jut when i enter that happy thing.

But from the first campaing i never saw a ship, nor germamy in port or allies that had cargo.

[kylania]

AI is the biggest non-moddable issue with the game.

That and most everything on your "non-moddable" list is completely moddable. :hmmm:

[SteamWake]

That and most everything on your "non-moddable" list is completely moddable. :hmmm:


I was wondering the same thing.

[HundertzehnGustav]

I don't understand? Planes have been shooting torpedoes from SH4, while in SH5 there's also AI submarines shooting torpedoes. No progress?


HUH?

now i had a good two week long campaign in a german Uboot in SHIV... and never saw such action!

aha? interesting, very interesting!

[EAF274 Johan]

That and most everything on your "non-moddable" list is completely moddable. :hmmm:
That's great news, but it will take a lot of effort and time from modders to address those issues. I'm afraid many people (possibly including me) will have the patience to stick around that long, especially because many of those problems are not there in earlier titles. Looking at the list I have to say that a lot of items are indeed game breakers for me. So if these do not get fixed (be it through patching or modding) in the foreseeable future, I will certainly lose interest and go back to SH3/4. I'm also afraid that the talented modders, too, will get tired of trying to fix a broken game and leave SH5.

When I think of it, for me the only meaningful improvement that SH5 has to offer is the new mini map. All other new features seem to be either broken or poorly implemented :cry:

If I may add another "game breaker" to the list, it would be the lack of functionality of the hydrophones station. Unless I am missing something, I can't change the volume, use the mouse to select a bearing, or identify a target with the notepad. I also seem to be unable to hear ships breaking up, and so far I haven't heard the "sound guy" warn me of depth charges or destroyers on their attack run.

[HundertzehnGustav]

That's great news, but it will take a lot of effort and time from modders to address those issues. I'm afraid many people (possibly including me) will have the patience to stick around that long, especially because many of those problems are not there in earlier titles. Looking at the list I have to say that a lot of items are indeed game breakers for me. So if these do not get fixed (be it through patching or modding) in the foreseeable future, I will certainly lose interest and go back to SH3/4. I'm also afraid that the talented modders, too, will get tired of trying to fix a broken game and leave SH5.



..and the list of broken things in itself...

The Buyer, the customer, the dude forking out money...:DL

For example he wants a product that works well, right from the start.
Let unssay... he has no clue about fora, no idea of modding or subsim, and plays SHIII unpatched, and enjoys it.

Now he comes to the store and sees SHV, gets it, and plays it...

and stumbles upon these things like no morale, UI completely different, Gubn crew difficulties and all the other things that are a huge Leanrning curve and are often enough badly explained to a point where the game no more works for him?

we all suppose that Modding's gonna fix things... that there is a community to write the manual for the Game...

but not every SH Player ever is a part of subsim or some other subsim forum...

for all those people that are not into modding, doing or using,
for those people SHV...

IS

broken.

...and if that is no dealbreaker...

?



?


Its just the opposite, two different opinions.

In this thread we sift through the things that will remain broken because unmoddable.

I, for one, suggest that a game needing modding to work properly, is a broken game in the first place.

I suggest that modding is a procedure to ADD material of all sorts and tastes to a game.
not FIX it.

:yeah:

[horsa]

kylania
That and most everything on your "non-moddable" list is completely moddable. :hmmm:

Good news. SH5 has a future then. Two years down the track and it will be a classic game. For the moment I leave you and folk like HundertzehnGustav to point out the ethical problems with that.

Care to elaborate on how/where each of those items could be modded ? :) Just interested.

HundertzehnGustav
but not every SH Player ever is a part of subsim or some other subsim forum...

for all those people that are not into modding, doing or using,
for those people SHV...

IS

broken.

Quite. I guess casual buyers must make up a bigger part of UBI's potential market than subsim members. I can't see how this game can be impressing them.

Eaf274 Johan
lack of functionality of the hydrophones station. Unless I am missing something, I can't change the volume, use the mouse to select a bearing, or identify a target with the notepad. I also seem to be unable to hear ships breaking up, and so far I haven't heard the "sound guy" warn me of depth charges or destroyers on their attack run.
Thanks. Noted.

[horsa]

Coldcall
on this thread
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=166452 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom)


The word from the techies/modders is that the one thing that they may not be able to fix is the AI as its hardwired/coded. Which i believe means the program needs to be recompiled with the new code fixing the AI. Scripts wont do it.

So the idea is that if Ubisoft Romania have a finite amnouint of time to spend on the patch, then they should concentrate on the AI which cant be fixed by the modders.

The modders have already demonstrated that they can reach into most aspects of the game, except the AI issues.
This seems to back up Kylania's post.

Interesting. So are we are down to AI as the only deal breaker. ??

[thyro]

SECOND STEP - OK let's weed a few out.

Special Case

1. 'online' requirement.

The pro argument says this is the future. Without it PC game development might cease.
For some players this is a complete no no . No compromise. End of story.



SH5 plus others on the shelves or being sold at £5 after 2 months release. End of story

[Solyne]

For me, well, I am a bit frustrated. Eventually I got rid of the server stored saved games, so that's maybe okay now. I frankly do not like this thing about being on line to play a single player game. I do have a cable connection, but live in a terribly prone area to black outs due to tropical weather come summer, and while electricity is a stopper, we usually have that back in a day or two, but cable can be out for weeks on end. I play MMOs a lot and need cable for those, but when it is down Silent Hunter is running 100% of the time.

There is no excuse for the requirement for a full time internet connection, and the interuption of my single play against the AI if the internet goes down.

SHIV was far better in many respects than SHV. I do admit that I absolutely love being able to walk around the boat and chat with my people, of course they have nothing to say so I guess it's like conversing with my lover... Oye, the game is so damned realistic *rolls eyes*

In the end, and being a dedicated player of Silent Hunter since the first version came out, I still play SHIV more than SHV since the release of SHV.

I guess that says it all right there, except that, regardless of whether I play this sim or not, UBI got my money already.

I am disappointed, but it is not a stopper.

[McBeck]

The Auto TDC system is a design featureand has been changed to a point and shoot system that needs practice. For the casual player this has become more difficult than "lock on and hit target nearly every time". Good or bad ?
For Manual TDC folk it's irrelevant.
If you are an auto TDC guy is this a deal breaker for you ?
Beck: Its very easy to use. I used to be a PoS guy, but this adds just a LITTLE bit more.

RPG approach is another design feature. Does a sub sim lend itself to RPG ? Wasn't this already in SH3 and SH4 when you issued orders to crew members? The SH5 system is different and doesn't work well. Isn't this scripted ? In which case it becomes moddable.
Maybe the author was refering to the whole game centred on the FPS Captain. Tiresome necessity or hard core realism ?
Is this different system a deal breaker for you ?
Beck: Can be modded. These should be the files to use:
CrewMembers.upc + SpecialAbilities.upc
Dialogs:\data\Scripts\AI\Dialogs_Default

Damage effects/control looks broken. Patchable ? Moddable ?
Deal breaker ?
Beck: Can be modded to some extend

Poor AI is the bane of a lot of games. From what I hear some AI is good but then you have DDs that run off into the woods and ships that crash into docks and explode. This looks like a patchable issue. Some posters have reported that some ( if not all) AI is scripted and therefore moddable. We'll see.
Deal breaker?
Beck: Can be modded to some extend

No Wolfpacks. Design feature. UBI's reluctance to take notice of the views of Subsim members and their mods of the last 5 years is not the issue here however valid the arguments. Sorry.
Deal breaker ?
Beck: They are in the game in some form, but if the form is to be changed, its a change in code.

No BDU radio traffic . Design feature. Same as above.

Lack of crew animation. I remember discussing the value of attempts at human avatars with Hitman and others many years ago. One school of thought was if they didn't work well they should be left out. If you can ignore them then you're still in. If not it's a deal breaker
Beck: Can be modded to some extend

No torpedo AI of any kind. Design feature. Same as above.

Weather, AI damage, map markings not saved in Save games. Doesn't this make saves useless ?Patchable ?
Deal breaker ?


See my comments above :D

[EAF274 Johan]

It's the "to some extent" bit that worries me. Only time will tell to what extent exactly. So I'd rather see those issues addressed in an official patch - idle hope, probably...

For example, I much prefer the SH4 interiors where I cannot walk around but at least I see the crew duck for cover or working on repairs rather than being able to go to the galley in SH5 but the crew stands passively.

[Nafod81]

Horsa,

I like the changes to the Auto TDC. As I now have to maneuver a bit to get a "good" shot.

For distance shots the manual option remains open. It's slightly aggravating that I cannot automatically hit targets at long ranges like in SHIII/IV but forces me to play a bit more.

Unfortunately it appears the AI is nowhere near as adept as it used to be and allows me to close the necessary distance.

I'd say the "bugged" but moddable (in fact already done) portion of this is the passive and active abilities of the torpedoman increase the speed of torpedoes, and the manual/auto TDC methods do not take these changes into account.

[Coldcall]

Coldcall
on this thread
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=166452 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom)

This seems to back up Kylania's post.

Interesting. So are we are down to AI as the only deal breaker. ??

Kylania probably understands the issue better than i, but from what Ive seen of the mods available so far, it appears that the one thing which requires some help from the devs is getting the AI to function to some degree of normality at the base code level.

It is really unchallenging at this stage and while its a beautiful maritime environment to cruise around in a sub, it is devoid of any feeling of tension or danger.

[McBeck]

It's the "to some extent" bit that worries me. Only time will tell to what extent exactly. So I'd rather see those issues addressed in an official patch - idle hope, probably...

For example, I much prefer the SH4 interiors where I cannot walk around but at least I see the crew duck for cover or working on repairs rather than being able to go to the galley in SH5 but the crew stands passively.
The extend is where the scripts end and the code start...only time will tell :)
But its a comfort that the is the most open SH till date and look what have been done with previous versions

[Faamecanic]

That may be true, Bones. But I don't know if moddable scripts can fix this kind of AI behavior. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUcDi90TQZI&hd=1):06:

.


Well done Neal..... a video speaks 1,000,000,000 words.

[Nico71]

For example he wants a product that works well, right from the start.
Let unssay... he has no clue about fora, no idea of modding or subsim, and plays SHIII unpatched, and enjoys it. Enjoy unpatched SH3? Hardly! SH3 was, at the time of release, in a pretty poor condition. I don't know why many people glorifiy SH3 as the Holy Grail of sub sims, especially in it's early form. Don't get me started on all those bugs it had. Just one example: A major bug in the SCR-layer of the campaign spawned all instances of scripted units of different time frames at once in the same place, making them crash and sink. As a result, the map was effectively wiped off any scripted traffic. Port traffic, ASW groups, historical events, whatever. I remember it so well because it was me who had the thankless task of going through each and every unit on the maps and all its instances, fixing this bug. It was a huge task! Eventually it was officially fixed in the second or third patch, I don't remember. I picked this example for a reason, BTW. When the issues with AI scripting in ports was mentioned, I suspected that something like this might be going on here, a problem with the scripting layer. Not the same problem, and not necessarily the AI per se. But when I saw it for the first time, my very first thought was: 'Oh, they screwed up the script layer.....again!' Not sure if this is really the case, but might be worth further investigation.

[Sailor Steve]

Nico! Good to hear from you again!:sunny:

And I agree. SH3 needed a lot of work to get it where it is today, "Best subsim ever" and all that. I remember all the complaints it got before the patches were done.

[horsa]

@ McBeck
Thanks for the notes, Jonathan. The bounderies between moddable/not moddable seem to be blurred but looks like the 'deal breaker list' could lose a lot of its items.

Nafod81
I like the changes to the Auto TDC. As I now have to maneuver a bit to get a "good" shot.Yep. I'm coming round to this way of thinking. Auto TDC was too easy in SH3 and 4. This makes it more challenging without making it impossible. Reminds me a little of 'Shells of Fury'.

[KiwiVenge]

SH3 needed a lot of work to get it where it is today, "Best subsim ever" and all that. I remember all the complaints it got before the patches were done.

SH3 was in bad shape when it first came out. Nvidia bug was huge, Starforce was the DRM issue at the time and people hated it as well.
If I recall correctly SH3 had a lot more bugs relating to various hardware setups then SH5 does. The list went on and on and then on some more.
Not saying this excuses SH5's state upon release day, just saying it is par for the course with UBI and the SH series.

[Brag]

I know what I hear, but until I see it, I am not going out on a limb with unconditional support. Did that with SH4, not my turn to do it again (Ubi's turn). :)





That may be true, Bones. But I don't know if moddable scripts can fix this kind of AI behavior. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUcDi90TQZI&hd=1):06:

.

Difficult to believe that a serious company supposedly run by adults would release a product in such a state. :nope:

[Able72]

What is the Deal Breaker for me?

Well, given the modders seem to be able to fix anything given enough time (look at what SH3 and SH4 have become given a few years in the modders hands) nothing would be a deal breaker in the long run.

But, to really direct attention to the issue at hand, in order my problems with SH5 that I believe Ubi needs to fix are as follows:

1. The DRM. requiring a constant internet connection is crap. This needs to go pronto.
2. The AI for all ships. When attacking a convoy the escorts barely react and the other merchants keep steaming straight on course as if nothing has happened.
3. I've been run over twice by DD's and managed to sink both of them with minimal damage to my own sub. This should not be. In both cases I should have been dead. Hosed, and toasted.
4. The UI and requiring me to 'run about the sub' in FPS fashion to issue orders to my crew. Thank God for TheDarkwraiths UI mod. After 2 hours of play, I shelved my copy of SH5 till his UI mod came out.
5. The Damage model needs to be reworked. Again, I have literally been run over by two DD's while at periscope depth. I should have been sunk both times but the sub was barely damaged after the collision.
6. The campaign needs to be reworked and improved. I like the idea of a dynamic campaign where my impact on the tonnage war makes a difference in the outcome of the war.
7. More ship types. More merchant vessels, more cruiser/capitol ships and a few private vessels would be nice as well (anyone else miss sinking the small French sailing vessels in SH3? That's why Subs have Deck Guns. :D)
8. Harbor life. I"m not so keen on the 'band seeing you off to patrol' but some harbor life would be good.
9. My Das Boot 'uniform'. You know the one's, flannel shirts and leather jackets for everyone :cool:
10. A Random 'load/mission load' screen (from images I've selected)

Yup. That about sums it up.

[UBOOT_fan]

The ships carrying war supplies have visible tanks and trucks on the decks. In fact, that's how you tell which ones you're to sink in the "War Supplies" mission in the Happy Times campaign.

That's not true, the war supplies ships looks exactly like...Liberty cargo, but in the CFG file they have different "names":

KL=Large Steamer
KLWarSupplies=Large Steamer (War Supplies)
LL=Liberty Cargo
LLWarSupplies=Liberty Ship (War Supplies)

There are NO ships exhibiting tanks etc , at least not with 1.2 patch. If you have a pic to support what you are saying, I would like to see them...



UPDATE

I was wrong it seems...The ships with war supplies HAVE each 2 tanks on the back deck. My apologies!


http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp353/prince_vlad_album/SH5Img2011-03-11_143802.jpg

[Zedi]

Is true, did those missions many times. There are ships with tanks nor trucks on deck, those are considered war supply ships.

[oscar19681]

The Type VII only deal is very bad. The crew management (not managing transfers and whatnot) is bad....real captains had to deal with losing key personnel and having green recruits after every patrol.

I have to agree with you , only one u-boat type and the total lack of any real crew managment. In sh-3/4 you really had the feeling the crew mattered and contibuted to the game. You could have your crew specialize in certain skills. In sh-5 this concept is totally ripped out of the game for some reason and gave us some cheap x-box point upgrade system for the crew and medals (or should i say medal) are given to the crew while on patroll. Also the crew cannot die and you are stuck with the same crew for the duration of the time you play the game.

[Nimbus]

Hi.

My 2 penneth - having not actually played SH5 yet. I've played SH3 for years and love the mods provided by the community. What is concerning me about SH5 is some of the comments on here regarding the atmosphere of the game. I've never been a hardcore player - I'm auto TDC all the way I'm afraid - but the number one thing I love about SH3 is the tension the game can create, and the immersion it gives me. The way the crew react, sitting at the hydrophone station listening for screws, hearing said screws overhead and not having a clue whether or not you will survive the next two minutes - that kind of thing.

If that has been compromised I will definitely not be buying SH5, at least until the modders/dev team have sorted it out. I await news with hope.

[TheDarkWraith]

Hi.

My 2 penneth - having not actually played SH5 yet. I've played SH3 for years and love the mods provided by the community. What is concerning me about SH5 is some of the comments on here regarding the atmosphere of the game. I've never been a hardcore player - I'm auto TDC all the way I'm afraid - but the number one thing I love about SH3 is the tension the game can create, and the immersion it gives me. The way the crew react, sitting at the hydrophone station listening for screws, hearing said screws overhead and not having a clue whether or not you will survive the next two minutes - that kind of thing.

If that has been compromised I will definitely not be buying SH5, at least until the modders/dev team have sorted it out. I await news with hope.

You want gripping and tension? Put my IRAI to the test. I bet you die within a short time of the escorts finding you :yep: