CNET/Gamespot torpedoes SH5 [Archive] - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

SteamWake

03-25-10, 01:10 PM

Hard to argue with just about anything there. The reviewer was obviously familiar with previous titles and knew what SH is all about.

Having to race around giving commands is annoying. It's impossible to do it effectively during combat, because by the time you get back to the engine room to tell your engineer to overcharge the diesel, you're on the bottom of the ocean. Doing so much in person is a bit nonsensical, too, given how real U-boats featured onboard voice tubes that let officers boss around the great unwashed

Couldent have said it better myself.

Nordmann

03-25-10, 01:14 PM

I think it was fair, given the circumstances. At least it didn't expressly condemn the game for all eternity, nor did the reviewer resort to childish attempts at humour. Overall, I believe it was an accurate appraisal of the game's current state (that is not to say it will not improve with time and patches, assuming there are any more).

I remember SH4 receiving some harsh criticism back in the day, and in the end, it didn't turn out all too badly (with mods of course).

mookiemookie

03-25-10, 01:25 PM

I think it was a great and well written review. Hard to fault anything in there. Except one part:

Regarding the missions, he says It's a little too much like you're clocking numbers, hoping to win the war if your sunk-ship totals wind up higher than the other guy's Which is basically what the whole point of the Battle of the Atlantic was. I don't believe that was a fair criticism. But unfortunately, everything else was.

Fragmate

03-25-10, 01:30 PM

Here`s the link:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/sim/silenthunter5/review.html

SteamWake

03-25-10, 01:33 PM

Here`s the link:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/sim/silenthunter5/review.html

That is a link but I aint gonna sign up to gamespot just to read a review. Besides the link was in the anchor post.

Filson

03-25-10, 01:42 PM

Yes, I thought it was pretty well written and covered most of the bases. You do wonder why these things weren't so apparent to Ubisoft themselves.

I think the suits at Ubi knew full well what the situation was and they just didn't care. I have not played the game . . . yet. But from everything I have heard it seems the suits demanded changes to make it more "accessible" and rushed it out the door before it was ready. That along with their draconian DRM sank the game before it ever hit the shelves. I think it came down to them asking whether it was worth investing any more time in development or just push it out and hope to recoup some money.

I think the only way Silent Hunter has a future is if an independent house develops it and somehow acquires the rights to the Silent Hunter name. Clearly this type of game cannot and should not be published by a large entertainment company because they will undoubtedly make all the wrong decisions.

C Filson

Fragmate

03-25-10, 01:42 PM

That is a link but I aint gonna sign up to gamespot just to read a review. Besides the link was in the anchor post.

I have not signed and i can read it.

Sonarman

03-25-10, 01:53 PM

@Fragmate
The text of the CNET & Gamespot articles seem to be the same so if you've read the CNET one...

@ Filson
Fully agree, I think also this is what happens when a company puts it's shareholders ahead of it's customers. Hopefully Ubisoft will learn from this experience and the SH series will not pay the price.

SteamWake

03-25-10, 02:15 PM

Holy crrap The Witcher 2 is out... cya later ! :salute:

Fragmate

03-25-10, 02:19 PM

@Sonarman

Thanks, i didn`t noticed that. Gamespot must be owned by CNet.

I think that the Pc Gamers are better be used to that kind of method. Take Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 as an exemple. It takes Steam to play the game. If you can`t log at Steam you can`t play. As far as i`m concern, nobody are complaining about Steam.

I`m not saying that i agree because, when the game is registred to your Steam account you can`t sell it anymore unless you sell your Steam account.

That`s the best way game developers founded to fight against pirates.

mookiemookie

03-25-10, 02:19 PM

Sonarman

03-25-10, 02:29 PM

I`m not saying that i agree because, when the game is registred to your Steam account you can`t sell it anymore unless you sell your Steam account. That`s the best way game developers founded to fight against pirates.

I wonder how legal, that is I seem to remember Autodesk got into legal trouble (Verner vs Autodesk) a while back because it did not allow users to sell their used copies of 3DS Max, technically in the US. I think, it is illegal under something called "first sale doctrine". The software companies may now be getting round that by saying you are buying a service not a product.

drtechno

03-25-10, 02:58 PM

This is one of the best reviews of the game that I have read. The first paragraph had me on the floor laughing:

"Have a lot of spare time on your hands? If so, Silent Hunter 5: Battle of the Atlantic might be the game for you. The latest addition to Ubisoft's venerable submarine simulation franchise is so confusing and unfinished that it would be less of a hassle to join the Navy and get firsthand experience underwater than to figure out what's going on here. "

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/sim/silenthunter5/review.html

ie- Big Fail

Sailor Steve

03-25-10, 02:59 PM

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=166133

Nordmann

03-25-10, 03:03 PM

drtechno

03-25-10, 03:08 PM

What I predicted since day one:

At first, giving face-to-face commands adds to the realism and makes you feel like you're the captain of a real sub. .... But then tedium sets in. Having to race around giving commands is annoying. It's impossible to do it effectively during combat, because by the time you get back to the engine room to tell your engineer to overcharge the diesel, you're on the bottom of the ocean. Doing so much in person is a bit nonsensical, ...

Having to look after crew morale is just a bother. You won't care about how Dieter's wife and kids are doing back home or how Wolfi's brother is handling life on board the Bismarck, but you'll ask, because otherwise the lads feel neglected and their morale plummets.

drtechno

03-25-10, 03:09 PM

Actually, it would be easier, but would it be as fun? Just ask the crew of the Kursk, oh wait, you can't.

What are u talking about? Kursk doesn't belong in this conversation.

Faamecanic

03-25-10, 03:16 PM

I love the idea of the RPG elements that COULD be with SH5.

I DISlike the idea of having to be face to face with my crewmen to get them to do something. If I order FLANK AHEAD GIVE HER ALL SHES GOT (note I said FLANK not INSANE/LUDICRIOUS/CRAZY SPEED AHEAD)...I should be able to do that by yelling the order thru the voicetube like it was in real life.

Onkel Neal

03-25-10, 03:22 PM

Very good review, imo. Sounds like Brett put some time in with the game and made some sound observations.

Having to race around giving commands is annoying. It's impossible to do it effectively during combat, because by the time you get back to the engine room to tell your engineer to overcharge the diesel, you're on the bottom of the ocean. Doing so much in person is a bit nonsensical, too, given how real U-boats featured onboard voice tubes that let officers boss around the great unwashed (literally--U-boats didn't have showers) from a distance.

He makes a good point, there should have been more options to give commands to the crew without necessarily having to move.

while the manual spends more space on cheesy bios of your crew ("Emil is usually very quiet and somewhat nerdy") than it does on the nuts and bolts of the sub operations necessary to get everybody home to Hitler. Even worse, the manual has been scanned at a low resolution, so you can't zoom in on maps and illustrations without them turning into blurry messes. First impressions don't get much worse than this.

:D

IanC

03-25-10, 03:23 PM

Onkel Neal

03-25-10, 03:24 PM

No, he means to use "special abilities" like overcharging the diesels.

Sonarman

03-25-10, 03:24 PM

I should be able to do that by yelling the order thru the voicetube like it was in real life.

I believe that was the devs plan, voicepipe animation graphics have actually been discovered within the game's files. In addition the crew popup menus scripting was to have included things like speed, heading, depth controls etc. It looks like the devs simply were forced to release too early/ran out of time. I think the UI if it had been allowed the time to develop as originally planned would have been ok. The latest UI mod from Darkwraith has gone a long way to me convince of this. Give it a try if you haven't already and see what SH5 should have been like on release.

The game's greatest failure in my opinion is that Ubisoft wanted to make it a more accessible experience hence the less technical looking GUI etc. But in cutting the development time and ommitting features they actually made the game a lot harder to understand for new players. Then they made the tutorial part of the campaign, big mistake it's not easy to go back and practice at all and it's much too truncated. To top it all off they gave the game an utterly useless manual with tiny screenshots and little or no explanations of how things worked. Even veteran players had to stop and think, the "primary target audience" newbies were doubtless left floundering in a sea of bewilderment.

Nordmann

03-25-10, 03:25 PM

What are u talking about? Kursk doesn't belong in this conversation.

*Sigh* Re-read the post, re-read the first post and the quote from the review. Apparently, someone thinks it would be easier to become a real submariner, than to learn SH5's controls. My post was reflecting on the fact that a game can't drown you. Simple really.

drtechno

03-25-10, 03:48 PM

*Sigh* Re-read the post, re-read the first post and the quote from the review. Apparently, someone thinks it would be easier to become a real submariner, than to learn SH5's controls. My post was reflecting on the fact that a game can't drown you. Simple really.

I guessed thats what you were implying :D but I could more easily die crossing the street to Best Buy (or in my neighborhood, get shot walking out of the mall) than die in a sub accident :smug:

janh

03-25-10, 04:19 PM

@ Filson
Fully agree, I think also this is what happens when a company puts it's shareholders ahead of it's customers. Hopefully Ubisoft will learn from this experience and the SH series will not pay the price.

Without intending to be negative -- how many people said about exactly that after the SHIV release? Hmmh, I wonder whether this trend will reverse one day, or the series just will end when it bottoms out... I was hoping exactly that after SHIV.

Nordmann

03-25-10, 04:30 PM

I guessed thats what you were implying :D but I could more easily die crossing the street to Best Buy (or in my neighborhood, get shot walking out of the mall) than die in a sub accident :smug:

True, but I'm sure the crew of the Kursk, and many others like her, thought the same thing. It's rarer, but it's not out of the question.

Justy

03-25-10, 05:13 PM

The game's greatest failure in my opinion is that Ubisoft wanted to make it a more accessible experience hence the less technical looking GUI etc. But in cutting the development time and ommitting features they actually made the game a lot harder to understand for new players. Then they made the tutorial part of the campaign, big mistake it's not easy to go back and practice at all and it's much too truncated. To top it all off they gave the game an utterly useless manual with tiny screenshots and little or no explanations of how things worked. Even veteran players had to stop and think, the "primary target audience" newbies were doubtless left floundering in a sea of bewilderment.

You got that right. I'm one of the nooby guys to this kind of gaming and if it weren't for my bro downloading some mods and telling/showing me how to install them (thank god he's a geek and follows this game even though he doesn't own it!) I would have been totally clueless as to how to go about it things. I still have trouble at times but a quick call/email to him sets me straight. I'm even trying my hand at looking around here and grabbing my own selected mods to help myself along. I don't know what I would have done if it wasn't for him and this site...

Daggothus

03-25-10, 05:15 PM

Hold on! I didn't buy SH5 (can't and won't untill DRM goes) but you have to go all the way to the engine room for speed changes??

No, he means to use "special abilities" like overcharging the diesels.

Some of the "special abilities" are tied to the function keys, but you still must have the moral to do it. I shouldn't have to man the deck gun myself right out of port...lazy tossers. :down:

Also, being the sucker I am (:damn:), I ponied up for the special edition on Steam for the "guide". I found it:

A) Hard to find, and
B) it is the quality of floaters shipmates have left for you in the head.

Pandion

03-25-10, 05:22 PM

Very good review, imo. Sounds like Brett put some time in with the game and made some sound observations.

He makes a good point, there should have been more options to give commands to the crew without necessarily having to move.

:D

Why would you run to the engine room when it's hotkeyed, and for the morale until it get's fixed it's not a great hardship to get the cook to brew up something special a few times during patrol.

:)

karamazovnew

03-25-10, 05:27 PM

Since when does CNET hijack reviews from Gamespot? Oh well, I gave SH5 a 5.0 score there a while back so I feel quite pleased with the reviewer's score. A very good review, both for fans and for newcomers.

On the other hand I did just get my Prince of Persia free download so I guess I'll raise the score to a 6.0 :D

Iron Budokan

03-25-10, 06:38 PM

You do wonder why these things weren't so apparent to Ubisoft themselves.

That's what baffles me as well. :-?

Sabre

03-25-10, 06:41 PM

That was a good, and fair, review. I've put in about 25 hours now with SH5 and I can't find anything there to argue with.

Overall though I do enjoy the game, as I did with SH2-SH4 and DC. But as is obvious to you all, many things can and should be improved upon..

Cheers :salute:

Noren

03-25-10, 06:58 PM

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/sim/silenthunter5/review.html

edit: sorry guys, did'nt know it was the same as CNET. Just delete :(

609_Avatar

03-25-10, 08:01 PM

...and if it weren't for my bro downloading some mods and telling/showing me how to install them (thank god he's a geek and follows this game even though he doesn't own it!)...

Who you callin' a geek you landlubber you! ;)

Easy Tiger

03-25-10, 08:04 PM

Who you callin' a geek you landlubber you! ;)

Being able to install a bit of software and then press butan isn't my definition of a geek :hmmm:

Easy Tiger

03-25-10, 08:10 PM

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/sim/silenthunter5/review.html

edit: sorry guys, did'nt know it was the same as CNET. Just delete :(
Yes Cnet own Gamespot apparantly.

Still waiting on a review from IGN... don't think we'll see one from 1up.com though because the guy couldn't even play it (http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=9022891) :oops:

609_Avatar

03-25-10, 08:18 PM

Being able to install a bit of software and then press butan isn't my definition of a geek :hmmm:

True, but you don't know my brother-in-law and what he uses for a dictionary! :D Plus I'm sure that's not the only reason for his comment, he has a lot of other examples to go from.

tater

03-25-10, 08:36 PM

Having to race around giving commands is annoying. It's impossible to do it effectively during combat, because by the time you get back to the engine room to tell your engineer to overcharge the diesel, you're on the bottom of the ocean.

Do you really HAVE to run around the boat in SH5? Why would this even be in game, what skipper would EVER have done this in RL? He'd utter an order, and it would get passed one way or the other (who cares, as skipper, that's not my job) to the person that needs to do his duty and execute my order.

It's not really like that in stock, is it?

mookiemookie

03-25-10, 08:39 PM

Do you really HAVE to run around the boat in SH5? Why would this even be in game, what skipper would EVER have done this in RL? He'd utter an order, and it would get passed one way or the other (who cares, as skipper, that's not my job) to the person that needs to do his duty and execute my order.

It's not really like that in stock, is it?

No. The engine telegraph and depth gauges work as they always have. The only time you need to actually walk up to someone and talk to him is if you want to activate their "special orders" like the overcharge engines command or load torpedoes super fast and other gamey crap like that. Hence, I never do it. The one exception is telling your XO to order silent running, but he's in the control room so its no big deal.

tater

03-25-10, 08:43 PM

mookiemookie

03-25-10, 10:20 PM

Sounds like they did everything possible to try and force you to walk around all the interiors.

When I first saw (stunningly impressive, BTW) mod work to model interiors, I was awestruck at the look for a few seconds, then immediately thought, "yeah, but what USE is it?" The bottom line is "no use at all."

:)

tater

Exactly what I've been saying since this feature was announced way back when. I'd rather they spent the time on things that mattered instead of a fully modeled interior. I was shouted down by the "I want IMMERSION folks." C'est la vie. :|\\

Onkel Neal

03-25-10, 10:31 PM

My voice is still hoarse! :O:

mookiemookie

03-25-10, 10:34 PM

My voice is still hoarse! :O:

Hah! And note that I never once made a "told ya so!" post ;)

Icarus

03-25-10, 10:46 PM

Sorry, but I gotta say, why you gotta walk to give commands????
Pretty much all commands and morals have keyboard macros, that are listed on F1 layout. I think on those the same as shouting.
Really, there are problems, but having to run all around the boat during combat is not one, at least not to me...
Moral is not as broken as many says, it is mostly a protection from loading the game during combat. That is my view...
A lot of stuff changed, yes they are different, different doesnt mean it is a bug.
The major problem I found, is the lack of manual, and that is not "just" a problem, it can be big for most ppl, cause this game is not even close to be user friendly.
But after you get used to the game, it works just fine...
Yes and moral is boring indeed.

Sorry for my english, 3 years I dont use it :P

Onkel Neal

03-25-10, 10:47 PM

Hah! And note that I never once made a "told ya so!" post ;)

You are a classy guy, I give you that :salute:

LukeFF

03-26-10, 12:33 AM

The one exception is telling your XO to order silent running, but he's in the control room so its no big deal.

There's a keyboard shortcut for that.

Adriatico

03-26-10, 05:32 AM

Hmm... This is heavy punch... nockdown.

Can't remember last time I saw 5/10 at Gamespot or PC IGN.
...it is mathematical expression for "shouldn't have been released".

Vanila ArmA 2 was suck of bugs... and got 8.0 This one is a bit cruel.

( Now... when I remeber discussions back in January10 : How can you criticize simulation that is not even released... )

alexradu89

03-26-10, 06:01 AM

for once, gj gamespot... serves them right! :down:

mookiemookie

03-26-10, 08:11 AM

There's a keyboard shortcut for that.

Really? Hmm...looks like I've been doing things the hard way again. :hmmm:

EAF274 Johan

03-26-10, 08:43 AM

Pretty much all commands and morals have keyboard macros, that are listed on F1 layout.
True, but the fact that they are listed as "Ability 1", "Ability 2" etc doesn't make it clear.

If they had only BOTHERED to clarify things in the manual/in-game tool tips, there would have been a lot less frustration. I'm glad that most reviews I have read point this out, hopefully (but who am I kidding) it will be a wake-up call to include better documentation next time. My son's Lego comes with a more detailed manual :damn:

The whole thing simply reeks of cutting corners and rushing it out of the door. Now I may be giving too much importance to this because I work in the translation business, but the state of the German localised version (don't know about the others) is appalling and in most businesses there would be hell to pay for whoever is responsible. The cynic in me suspects that this was some cunning strategy of Ubi, earning them a discount on their localisation bill :x

Walking around in the sub could have been cool if there were actually things going on. Crew rushing forward during crash dive, cringing when being depth charged, working their socks off during repairs. Now they just lie in their bunks. Talking to the crew could have been a nice touch if your replies influenced the storyline. Now we have a Radio operator boasting about how his brother is on a ship that isn't commissioned yet and how he is ruining Germany's chance of winning by single-handedly dragging the US into the war :shifty:

609_Avatar

03-26-10, 08:52 AM

Exactly what I've been saying since this feature was announced way back when. I'd rather they spent the time on things that mattered instead of a fully modeled interior. I was shouted down by the "I want IMMERSION folks." C'est la vie. :|\\

Hard to argue with and I've always agreed with this. It's cool initially but when you're playing for the reasons you want, or at least that I want ;) , like sinking ships and trying to evade escorts I'm not into running around the interior looking at all the cool looking stuff, I'm busy doing the things at hand.

Nordmann

03-26-10, 09:09 AM

Exactly what I've been saying since this feature was announced way back when. I'd rather they spent the time on things that mattered instead of a fully modeled interior. I was shouted down by the "I want IMMERSION folks." C'est la vie. :|\\

I suppose a balance should be struck, between immersion and practicality. Now, I don't know if they have managed to do that, but surely having an interior with no use, is better than having no interior at all?

At least you are more likely to feel like you are actually on board a submarine, rather than a baked bean tin!

Onkel Neal

03-26-10, 09:11 AM

Really? Hmm...looks like I've been doing things the hard way again. :hmmm:

Ha! I told yo.... mmmf-mumffl....

:O:

mookiemookie

03-26-10, 09:16 AM

I think it's time we break out this classic again: (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1234900&postcount=63)

mookiemookie's idea of a subsim...:

>Welcome - Silent Hunter 5 console command v.1.05 rev 85469 type VII
Loading Situation...........*
Type your commands.

>/Where "Captain"
>Captain@Deck
>CD..
>Captain@Attack_Periscope
>CD..
>Captain@Control_Room
>Message incom. #18 Sonar_Room : "Contact, Bearing 105, Moving Away"
>Look Battery_level
>Unknown Command
>Check Battery_Level
>Batteries 98.52%

Frying Tiger

03-26-10, 10:35 AM

I think it's time we break out this classic again: (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1234900&postcount=63)

I laughed when I saw that (I didn't see it on the first go-round) because one of the first computer games I ever played (I'm old...) was on a teletype terminal and called "STRTRK". It was a single-ship engagement with the Enterprise and a Klingon cruiser, and it played almost exactly like the description above... I loved it, too!

jhelix70

03-26-10, 12:55 PM

These gamespot scores are pretty bad (review 5.0, users 4.2)...especially when you go back and compare to SHIII (reviews and users around a 9.0) and SHIV (reviews and users around 8.0).

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/sim/silenthunteriii/index.html?tag=similargames;img;4

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/sim/silenthunter4/index.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=gssimilargames&tag=similargames;img;1

Adriatico

03-26-10, 01:18 PM

Within all these embarrassments and price drops of Silent Buger 5, they sincerely should consider removing DRM... and give some fresh blood to the lost game.

At least... to let it's traditional community reconsider buying it.

Ubi continues it's kamikaze-war on pirats - who are not even interested in that game any more... just like the "non fans" community.

* * *
And after all... "we should be sorry for dying brand".
If Ubi is not, why should we ?

bookworm_020

03-26-10, 10:53 PM

A pretty fair and well reasoned article. Hopefuly someone at ubisoft will take notice and fix a few faults

sidslotm

03-27-10, 06:12 AM

I waited and waited for SH5 only to say no, this review at game world and indeed the Ubi forums, confirm for me the worst thing that could have happened to my delicate disposition, to have bought a product and find I have been decieved, the product is faulty.

Would you buy a second hand car from this man the add proclaim over the picture of the late Richard Nixon, I really hope Ubi never find themselves in this place.

SH3 online for £3 with GWX gold has to be the bargain of all time, how can Ubi compete with this http://sidslotm.spaces.live.com/

I will buy SH5, but no yet, not yet.

"Crime has many weapons but a lie is the handle to fit them all" Sherlock Holmes:hmmm:

ironkross

03-27-10, 08:10 AM

I agree with this review- for the vanilla version. OTOH most of the mod fixes the reviewer wishes for are here already; for me the game is fun to play now. Agreed it still can be better, Ubisoft need to release a patch for
AI issues, morale fix, as well as many of the features that were left out and I think that's coming.
A 5 rating is fair for the game as released, I would give it a 7 now with some excellent modding. It could someday be a 9. (Offline play patch from Ubi?)
The part of the article that I questioned is when he writes about single digit frame rates and game freeze/slugishness and white icons. In my game it happens but so rarely it's not an issue. It might have helped had the reviewer mentioned what system he played the game on, what hardware he used and some settings. That would have been a more useful guide for someone thinking about buying the game.

Cujo

03-27-10, 09:05 AM

Ii have to reluctantly agree with the reviews. I have invested many enjoyable hours on the franchise, including SH5. If SH5 was my maiden voyage I wouldn't have lasted more than an hour or so before returning to port and going A Wall. The lack of quality documentation and tutorials would have sent this game to the bottom desk shelf shelf like the many merchants I have sent to the bottom of the sea. Unfortunately we will not recruit any new SH series submariners with this release.

Konovalov

03-27-10, 10:53 AM

An excellent review and far more comprehensive than the one by Bit Tech (http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/pc/2010/03/23/silent-hunter-5-review/1). Reading reviews like Neals at Subsim and this one by cnet justify my position not to purchase this sim on release. Hopefully with time this one will mature like SHIII and SHIV did. The bad news for SHV is that it is in such a bad state at release that it is going to take quite some time to reach anywhere near the standard of SHIII or IV. However I still have faith that SHV has a future. :)

One thing I don't understand is that Ubi harped on about how they wanted to broaden the fan base of this sim by introducing new features. Yet the complete lack of documentation and intuitive design appears to make it impossible for any landlubber who has never played a Silent Hunter series sim before to get into the genre. Hardly sounds like a great way to try and broaden the fan base. :down:

Faamecanic

03-27-10, 02:07 PM

I remember SH4 receiving some harsh criticism back in the day, and in the end, it didn't turn out all too badly (with mods of course).

But, just like with SH4, UBISTANK will blame poor sales on "a lack of interest in this niche market". What that will result in is either a cancellation of SH6 or a shorter dev time and smaller budget, yet ensuring another half-arse release that UBI will blame us for.

And ROFL at this screenshot and caption from the review...... (NO GAME should be released with crap like this in it).... Im surprised they didnt note that it was because the ship was traveling in reverse while trying to intercept and ram your Uboat.

http://img.gamespot.com/gamespot/images/2010/082/reviews/971406_20100324_embed003.jpg

Yes, that's a German ship busily smashing itself to bits against the walls of its own port.