Sales of SH 5

[Tomi_099]

Sales of SH 5

Who can say?.:hmmm:
Silent Hunter 5 has made a new sales record (because the copy protection)
or Ubisoft has made or a collapse in sales (Swastika image in the readme

[Cavell]

Well, no one can. Though the indications for online sales are pretty terrible. It didn't last in Steam's top 10 for more than a week, and even then it was beaten out by Counter-Strike: Source. Similarly, I never saw it crack Direct2Drive's top 10. Direct2Drive's user ratings are abysmal, and it's impossible to buy it off of Steam without noticing the Metacritic rating of 60 staring you in the face. And of course Amazon user reviews are terrible as well.

It'll be a long while before we know officially, but I'd hazard a guess that it tanked.

[msxyz]

Anyone got some reliable data?

I've a hunch that software like this one have stronger sales in EU markets. At any rate, I wouldn't be surprised if, by this point, it sold less than SH3 or SH4

[Barso]

The problem is that the financial suits of ubisoft will blame the poor sales on a lack of market for subsims now.
Thinking that, what the people really want is more rabbid rabbits and the evolution of motion controllers.
Instead of the drm issue and the fact that it got terrible reviews.
Sad isn't it but I think this is the last silent hunter we will see.

[GFC Christian]

Anyone got some reliable data?

I've a hunch that software like this one have stronger sales in EU markets. At any rate, I wouldn't be surprised if, by this point, it sold less than SH3 or SH4

Not really, but there are indicators. I.e. Silent Hunter 5 already dropped out of the Top 100 bestseller charts at amazon here in Germany. The Price dropped from € 44,50 to € 35,90 within 4 weeks and the customer reviews at amazon are frankly a disaster.

Next to this, UBISOFT did not release a second patch fixing major or even minor bugs within the last 4 weeks and the fact that there is NO official statement about the release of a second patch or about availiability of DLC at Uplay feed the rumors at this end.

But all conclusions would be pure speculation, of course......

[Skybird]

I know a guy who works in the pc department of a major electronics chain store here in Germany, Saturn, which is quite big. Last week he told me that SH5 lies like lead on their shelves. they had a good start on the first 2 days, then suddenly customers stayed away. He said that sales go bad in another Saturn store, too, and also in the one Media market we have here (Saturn and Media belong to the same corporation).

At German Amazon, price already dropped by 30% a longer time ago now, I think already in the second week.

[Coldcall]

Guys,

The best thing that could happen is that SH5 sales are such a huge nightmare that Ubisoft decide not to continue with the franchise.

My view is that Ubisoft has had too many chances to get it right, and that they keep getting it so wrong is an indication that they could not really care less about SH franchise.

I hope and pray that they have a tantrum over sales and say they wont produce another.

There are plenty of excellent smaller developers who could produce as good or better as any SH title ever released.

Ubisoft are not the only game in town, and a decent sub simulator has a guaranteed 200,000 sales plus worldwide which is more than enough for a strong 2 year dev process, and still a large profit margin thereafter.

[alexradu89]

Guys,

The best thing that could happen is that SH5 sales are such a huge nightmare that Ubisoft decide not to continue with the franchise.

My view is that Ubisoft has had too many chances to get it right, and that they keep getting it so wrong is an indication that they could not really care less about SH franchise.

I hope and pray that they have a tantrum over sales and say they wont produce another.

There are plenty of excellent smaller developers who could produce as good or better as any SH title ever released.

Ubisoft are not the only game in town, and a decent sub simulator has a guaranteed 200,000 sales plus worldwide which is more than enough for a strong 2 year dev process, and still a large profit margin thereafter.

We have such absolutely talented people here that we could do our own game, and have EVERYONE contribute (like a real crew:up:). Just my opinion.:arrgh!:If the SH3 game engine (and everything regarding SH3) would be freeware and usable to everyone it would be so awesome.

[Castout]

I probably never going to buy it even if it hadn't come with the stupid DRM. Another flop. Not going to burn my money in that. Not worth playing imo.

Torpedo los! and it was sunk!:arrgh!:

[Coldcall]

We have such absolutely talented people here that we could do our own game, and have EVERYONE contribute (like a real crew:up:). Just my opinion.:arrgh!:If the SH3 game engine (and everything regarding SH3) would be freeware and usable to everyone it would be so awesome.

The SH modders are great but a proper *finnished* submarine simulator with SH5 graphics would need commercial ambitions.

Artists and developers need to be paid for their work, so they arent worried about paying rent cheques etc...The job needs to be done professionally. But with a $10million (conservativley) market per release that should not be a problem for a smller developer that isnt more concerned about their big populist titles. This is the problem with UBI and SH. For Ubi, SH is a minor title.

[captainprid]

Guys,

The best thing that could happen is that SH5 sales are such a huge nightmare that Ubisoft decide not to continue with the franchise.

My view is that Ubisoft has had too many chances to get it right, and that they keep getting it so wrong is an indication that they could not really care less about SH franchise.

I hope and pray that they have a tantrum over sales and say they wont produce another.

There are plenty of excellent smaller developers who could produce as good or better as any SH title ever released.

Ubisoft are not the only game in town, and a decent sub simulator has a guaranteed 200,000 sales plus worldwide which is more than enough for a strong 2 year dev process, and still a large profit margin thereafter.


I think maybe that is a little harsh. Agreed there are other companies out there capable of making an improved version of SH but none seem to be too enthusiastic about doing so. A new game would require an entirely new engine as UBI are unlikely to want to release theirs, so whereas a SHVI could be done relatively cheaply, a new developer would have to spend big bucks devloping a new engine.

I also feel that UBI have shot themselves in the foot here. Like a previous poster said, no info about a patch is imminent. Perhaps if they had held their hands up and said the game is bugged but we are working to resolve these issues, more people may well have bought it.

The end of Silent Hunter, I really hope not!!! The whole series has been bugged to some extent but with the modders on here and patches from UBI, they have all become amazing games and the genre leaders

[Coldcall]

I think maybe that is a little harsh. Agreed there are other companies out there capable of making an improved version of SH but none seem to be too enthusiastic about doing so. A new game would require an entirely new engine as UBI are unlikely to want to release theirs, so whereas a SHVI could be done relatively cheaply, a new developer would have to spend big bucks devloping a new engine.

I also feel that UBI have shot themselves in the foot here. Like a previous poster said, no info about a patch is imminent. Perhaps if they had held their hands up and said the game is bugged but we are working to resolve these issues, more people may well have bought it.

The end of Silent Hunter, I really hope not!!! The whole series has been bugged to some extent but with the modders on here and patches from UBI, they have all become amazing games and the genre leaders

SH franchise has been the submarine sim leader because there is no-one else doing commercial subsims since early 2000. Look at all the subsims in the 80s/90s. Its a popular genre and Ubisoft have had it all to themselves for almost a decade now.

Personally i see Ubisoft as a hindrance to the future of the subsim market. By releasing a new title every 2/3 years they are sort of stifling the potential of a competitive title. Especially because sales figures for SH5 could indicate to some that no-one wants to play a subsim, when actually there is a large dedicated market worth millions of dollars but Ubi's incompetence has made it look unprofitable.

Their CEo has a habit of using the most outragoeus justifications for why a certain title did not sell well.

I'd much prefer a subsim title being in the hands of a smaller dedicated developer.

[Méo]

SBy releasing a new title every 2/3 years they are sort of stifling the potential of a competitive title.

Ok, if I understand:

- If a company release a really good and sharp product, a competitor won't dare trying.

- If a company release an unfinished and buggy product, a competitor won't dare neither...

[GFC Christian]

Ok, if I understand:

- If a company release a really good and sharp product, a competitor won't dare trying.

- If a company release an unfinished and buggy product, a competitor won't dare neither...

Which competitor ?

[Wurschtie]

I am quite certain that the major problem is the lack of business competition. I believe Ubisoft was able to get a bit lazy about SH, because players do not have any games to go to as an alternative.

From a marketing point of view, this leads to the conclusion that SH5 is not more than a second class cash cow, in a dying genre.

As a long time flight simulator enthusiast, I would even say that simulations themselves are a dying genre. Even Microsoft closed the aces studios, which were responsible for nearly every MSFS of the last two decades (which is not really the end of the world, because the MSFS series has a product life cycle of about 5-10 years). That is mainly because playing habits of the masses change from enthusiasts (as known from the early amiga and commodore days) to casual console gamers. In order to persist, it is crucial for a studio to have mega-selling titles like Assassin's Creed for the kiddie gaming generation, which likes to play GTA and stuff like that. Sims like SH5 are not an obligation, but more like an accessory and a question of image. And sure as hell Ubisoft is not coming out of this mess near zero, but with a big fat red minus at the end of the day. And this estimation does not even consider the negative effects on Ubisoft's image as a publisher in whole.

Silent Hunter was, unfortunately, one big fail. It was a communication fail in the first place. It is simply impossible to create a product which has such a high-involvement character as SH5 without asking or talking to the community. And chances are, that this will be the end of a whole genre, unless some studio (or even Ubisoft) is brave enough to do better (which is easy), or the community continues to maintain and mod the sh* out of this game and keep it alive, to prove that there still IS a market for sub sims. Without wanting to meet the trouble halfway, I am not really confident about the will of Ubisoft to keep trying to ride a dead horse.

IF (!) this game is dying in the arms of ubisoft, we can only hope that it will be given away at some point in time to a studio that dares to pay a license and continue the beloved stuff in the means of the community.

I agree to Méo that this is kind of a dilemma :damn:

@christian: the potential one ;)

[John Channing]

Coldcall your arguement overlooks the fact that most developers have gotten out of simulations all together. The exception is Oleg, but he is self financed. Other than that... nada. Add to that the fact that there have been several experienced independent developers that have actually started developing Subsims (Akula: Red Hunter anyone?) and then threw in the towel when they ran out of funding.

Subsims like Ubisoft are incredibly complex, expensive simulations to develop from scratch. The reason the Silent Hunter series makes some sense financially is that most of the code is already done and paid for so the development time is shorter than if you were building it from a blank C++ screen. And on the plus side, you have experienced developers who have a passion for Sub-sims involved.

So... if you know of a self-financed, independent, experienced developer with oodles of money that has a passion for WW2 Subs then point them out to me, cuz I sure as heck can't find any.

JCC

[Méo]

@christian: the potential one ;)

Exactly! :up:

[Coldcall]

Ok, if I understand:

- If a company release a really good and sharp product, a competitor won't dare trying.

- If a company release an unfinished and buggy product, a competitor won't dare neither...

If they released an excellent product, and the market could absorb a second title, then another developer might try a competitive subsim. However if Ubisoft were releasing excellent product then there might not be such a need from the community itself.

However as it stands today, your first scenario is a pipedream :-) If only...

The reason Ubi is stifling the market is because they can keep releasing half-arsed SH games because they have immense development resources, economies of scale etc..They can hedge their games portfolio because they have so many titles.

[GFC Christian]

Coldcall your arguement overlooks the fact that most developers have gotten out of simulations all together. The exception is Oleg, but he is self financed. Other than that... nada. Add to that the fact that there have been several experienced independent developers that have actually started developing Subsims (Akula: Red Hunter anyone?) and then threw in the towel when they ran out of funding.

....and please bear in mind that UBISOFT published the IL2 series. :o Let's keep our fingers cross that Oleg is really independent.

[Wurschtie]

....and please bear in mind that UBISOFT published the IL2 series. :o Let's keep our fingers cross that Oleg is really independent.

Yeah.

Ability to retract landing gear and flaps - $9.99 @uPlay

*knocks on wood*

[Coldcall]

Coldcall your arguement overlooks the fact that most developers have gotten out of simulations all together. The exception is Oleg, but he is self financed. Other than that... nada. Add to that the fact that there have been several experienced independent developers that have actually started developing Subsims (Akula: Red Hunter anyone?) and then threw in the towel when they ran out of funding.

Subsims like Ubisoft are incredibly complex, expensive simulations to develop from scratch. The reason the Silent Hunter series makes some sense financially is that most of the code is already done and paid for so the development time is shorter than if you were building it from a blank C++ screen. And on the plus side, you have experienced developers who have a passion for Sub-sims involved.

So... if you know of a self-financed, independent, experienced developer with oodles of money that has a passion for WW2 Subs then point them out to me, cuz I sure as heck can't find any.

JCC

I'm not forgetting the current state of the games development/publishing. You are quite right that as things stands many niche genres have gone by the wayside.

However one of the reasons this has happened is because large groups like EA and Ubsioft have bought up many smaller independent developers. They have played the old game of buying up all your compeition and then you will have none, so we will soon be left with 3 or 4 large publishers who control the whole games industry.

But i am optimistic that this phase of consolidation is nearly over now, and because the games market is so huge (and growing) smaller developers will start popping up again where they see holes in the market.

[Eddy Lawson]

I don't know about the sales. Just wanted to add a little comment about the price:
when I first searched for SHV here in italy I though it was a used copy because the price was 30€ and the game was out from not more than 10 days.
I didn't buy it... I was suspicious, it seemed somehow too low to be real... so I went to another shop and... suprise! Same thing!!!

That's an excellent price, if it wasn't for what I read about the DRM I would have bought it. I promise I will as soon as this copy protection farse will end... and I hope it will happen soon!

[alexradu89]

But i am optimistic that this phase of consolidation is nearly over now, and because the games market is so huge (and growing) smaller developers will start popping up again where they see holes in the market.
It's the little games(and small independent developers, that in the end are bought by large companies) that make the difference.:up:

[msxyz]

There are a few indie developers with great potential.

The most expensive part of videogames are the assets. Graphics, sound and videos. But what we need is a stable, modular and easy to mod code base. That would be a great start. The community can then take care of the assets

[Tomi_099]

I also hope that we get the SH6 a meal.
But this debacle could have been planned or strategy, so from UbiSoft.
Then all the indications are.
I mean in the first weeks to sell the game best.


Whether it's finished or not.
Because it is not the gamer knows what he is buying.


The publication was a disaster.
No Advertising, no Marketing ... only at the end to the customer in good
To maintain mood.

The second UbiSoft knows it can not stopp Crackers Activity.
The more secure the protection is the Game DVD ,l the more interesting for the crackers.
So,
this is applies to the time play.

So who the shops in the first weeks go well and is money in the kitty!
Then we make a Patsch corrects the errors and turn off our internet connection with Patsch with customers, because the support of server management and conservation
are lot of money.

And the gratest Diel is made.

Added to which the customer is an action against the company Ubisoft or other companies could make a constant connection with the Private PC
Spay because of the personal data.
Microsoft has already gained experience here, apart from the attacks on the server.

[gimpy117]

The problem is that the financial suits of ubisoft will blame the poor sales on a lack of market for subsims now.
Thinking that, what the people really want is more rabbid rabbits and the evolution of motion controllers.
Instead of the drm issue and the fact that it got terrible reviews.
Sad isn't it but I think this is the last silent hunter we will see.

A agree...i play sims like RoF and Silent hunter and my roomies ask me why i "play those boring games". I am in the key 18-25 demographic and i don't think this game is too popular with my age group. this might be the last silent hunter :down:

[The General]

If I worked in Marketing for Ubisoft, I would've made damn sure that Gametrailers.com did a review of SH5. That website has huge exposure. It's not too late for a review on there either, get on it Ubisoft, sheesh! :-?

[Faamecanic]

Guys,

The best thing that could happen is that SH5 sales are such a huge nightmare that Ubisoft decide not to continue with the franchise.

My view is that Ubisoft has had too many chances to get it right, and that they keep getting it so wrong is an indication that they could not really care less about SH franchise.

I hope and pray that they have a tantrum over sales and say they wont produce another.

There are plenty of excellent smaller developers who could produce as good or better as any SH title ever released.

Ubisoft are not the only game in town, and a decent sub simulator has a guaranteed 200,000 sales plus worldwide which is more than enough for a strong 2 year dev process, and still a large profit margin thereafter.


It is my hope the Devs in Romania get released from UBISTANK and get with a GOOD niche market publisher (remember the SSI of old guys) and live their dream of developing a Silent Hunter that ALL can be proud of.

Without a doubt, if the devs had more budget and another 6 months to a year on SH5 it would have been a thing of BEAUTY.

In fact.... why didnt UBI have any beta testers....this would have elminated 90% of the bugs before release?? Is it Ubi's policy to NOT beta test? Such a shame as this community is not only full of subsim experts...but modders that UNDERSTAND the code and when things work as they should or not. And some of the BIG mod developers have PROVEN they can keep their mouth shut (GWX folks were great at keeping us guessing to the end) Why not tap that level love/dedication/devotion?

[Onkel Neal]

Guys,

The best thing that could happen is that SH5 sales are such a huge nightmare that Ubisoft decide not to continue with the franchise.

My view is that Ubisoft has had too many chances to get it right, and that they keep getting it so wrong is an indication that they could not really care less about SH franchise.

I hope and pray that they have a tantrum over sales and say they wont produce another.

There are plenty of excellent smaller developers who could produce as good or better as any SH title ever released.

Ubisoft are not the only game in town, and a decent sub simulator has a guaranteed 200,000 sales plus worldwide which is more than enough for a strong 2 year dev process, and still a large profit margin thereafter.


There are excellent smaller developers out there, but I doubt very much any of them can make an AAA title like Silent Hunter that will match our expectations. Even before Ubisoft took over the SH series, there has only been one game that rose to the level of SH: Aces of the Deep. And Sierra, even with the crack Dynamix dev team ready to make a sequel, decided it was not profitable. They decided it was not profitable.

Anything is possible, I suppose. But there is a lot more evidence that a game as good as SH3/SH4 can only be created by a large publisher like Ubisoft. And with a weak SH5, if anyone was going to try to take that market over, now would be the time. I haven't heard anything at all that remotely sounds like this will happen. EA is making a major sub game, but it will be like Battlestations: Midway, and it's X-box all the way, baby.




I am quite certain that the major problem is the lack of business competition. I believe Ubisoft was able to get a bit lazy about SH, because players do not have any games to go to as an alternative.

From a marketing point of view, this leads to the conclusion that SH5 is not more than a second class cash cow, in a dying genre.

As a long time flight simulator enthusiast, I would even say that simulations themselves are a dying genre. Even Microsoft closed the aces studios, which were responsible for nearly every MSFS of the last two decades (which is not really the end of the world, because the MSFS series has a product life cycle of about 5-10 years). That is mainly because playing habits of the masses change from enthusiasts (as known from the early amiga and commodore days) to casual console gamers. In order to persist, it is crucial for a studio to have mega-selling titles like Assassin's Creed for the kiddie gaming generation, which likes to play GTA and stuff like that. Sims like SH5 are not an obligation, but more like an accessory and a question of image. And sure as hell Ubisoft is not coming out of this mess near zero, but with a big fat red minus at the end of the day. And this estimation does not even consider the negative effects on Ubisoft's image as a publisher in whole.

Silent Hunter was, unfortunately, one big fail. It was a communication fail in the first place. It is simply impossible to create a product which has such a high-involvement character as SH5 without asking or talking to the community. And chances are, that this will be the end of a whole genre, unless some studio (or even Ubisoft) is brave enough to do better (which is easy), or the community continues to maintain and mod the sh* out of this game and keep it alive, to prove that there still IS a market for sub sims. Without wanting to meet the trouble halfway, I am not really confident about the will of Ubisoft to keep trying to ride a dead horse.

IF (!) this game is dying in the arms of ubisoft, we can only hope that it will be given away at some point in time to a studio that dares to pay a license and continue the beloved stuff in the means of the community.



I agree 100% with your assessment. Our biggest hope remains that if Ubisoft refuses to support SH5 and fund SH6, that the serious sim guys in Bucharest can work out a deal with another publisher. Oleg, everyone's favorite messiah, someone... The next subsim will probably be Russian, like T-34 vs Tiger.

[Coldcall]

It's the little games(and small independent developers, that in the end are bought by large companies) that make the difference.:up:


absolutely, Ubisoft and EA have gobbled up the best once-independent talent in game development such as Bioware for instance.

Look at Bioware now, they are not the same company that developed genre defining games like BG series, or KOTOR.

[Coldcall]

Oh boy, so many things wrong with that, don't know where to begin. :-?

Well this is a forum to express yourself, so give it a try.

My point is that some competition would be good for the subsim community, but if you want to make the case that we are better off living with Ubsiofts dominance of the subsim genre - be my guest...

[Onkel Neal]

Sorry, I apologize for the short, snotty remark :timeout: I tired to ninja edit it and add a reply to you that was more in the spirit of the Subsim forums, but you replied too quick :D

So, please ignore that and read my edited comments :salute:

[nikimcbee]

It would be cool if Sid Meier would do an updated version of Silent Service.:up: But on a side note, Neal is correct about a smaller group putting out a big name game, unless they have the capital (which I highly doubt:dead:) to hire good programming, artistic talent, QA, marketing, to get it to market in a timely manner:doh:. Plus a lot of the publishers are corrupt, unethical sheissters:nope:.

[Faamecanic]

I agree 100% with your assessment. Our biggest hope remains that if Ubisoft refuses to support SH5 and fund SH6, that the serious sim guys in Bucharest can work out a deal with another publisher. Oleg, everyone's favorite messiah, someone... The next subsim will probably be Russian, like T-34 vs Tiger.

Im not buying the argument that SH series is too big for a small developer.

Granted...the engine itself is what costs BIG $$$ to make. And Ubistank isnt about to release even the SH III engine.

But if modders like the GWX/RUB/RFB can make such wonderful mods that in essance redifine the game.... then I dont see why the Devs couldnt find funding to remake a new series.

[SteamWake]

It would be cool if Sid Meier would do an updated version of Silent Service.:up: But on a side note, Neal is correct about a smaller group putting out a big name game, unless they have the capital (which I highly doubt:dead:) to hire good programming, artistic talent, QA, marketing, to get it to market in a timely manner:doh:. Plus a lot of the publishers are corrupt, unethical sheissters:nope:.

Sid has lost it.. compare railroads to railroad tycoon :nope:

[Coldcall]

Neal,

"There are excellent smaller developers out there, but I doubt very much any of them can make an AAA title like Silent Hunter that will match our expectations. Even before Ubisoft took over the SH series, there has only been one game that rose to the level of SH: Aces of the Deep. And Sierra, even with the crack Dynamix dev team ready to make a sequel, decided it was not profitable. They decided it was not profitable."

Triple A? I dont think any SH title (unmodded) could be called that except for maybe SH3 (introducing the dynamic campaign). Of course that is a matter of opinion.

I reckon the major appeal of SH games since SH3 has been the dynamic campaign. Just like the major feature of F4 was that it boasted one of the first realtime complex dynamic campaigns for sim enthusiasts.

Why are these two games so popular amongst sim fans? Because they have *dynamic campaigns*. I know i keep saying it over and over but i think its improitant to grasp what makes SH popular regardless of the bugs, and broken implementation of major aspects of the game.

I dont buy the excuses that a sub game is not profitable and the only reason Ubi can do it because they just recycle most components from the previous Sh games.

Each release can bag anywhere between $10m-$20million gross on a 200k-400k sold at $50 per copy.

A dev team of 25 artists/programmers working for 2 and half years cannot produce that game and make a profit?

When corps talk about profitability they often have very inflated ideas about RTO, especially when they compare that title next to say a much more populist title like Assasins Creed.

I take what those companies say about profitability with a large grain of salt.

"Anything is possible, I suppose. But there is a lot more evidence that a game as good as SH3/SH4 can only be created by a large publisher like Ubisoft. And with a weak SH5, if anyone was going to try to take that market over, now would be the time. I haven't heard anything at all that remotely sounds like this will happen. EA is making a major sub game, but it will be like Battlestations: Midway, and it's X-box all the way, baby."

Whether in a year or two or a decade, there will be other sub sims and they wont always be made by Ubisoft.

[Sonarman]

It would be cool if Sid Meier would do an updated version of Silent Service.:up:

Not so sure about that... this from Sid's Keynote speech at this years GDC

" We want you to feel good about yourself while you're playing. This went off the tracks with Flight Simulators: early on they were accessible and easy to play. Then we got to every iteration where they went more complex, more realistic.. and pretty soon the player went from I'm Good to I'm Confused. My plane is falling out of the sky. The fun went out of it. Keep your player feeling good about themselves."

Add to the fact that SH4 sold a lot less copies in the US than SHIII and you have to question the viability of a Pacific theatre subsim.

[Takao]

Sonarman,
With regards to the viability of a Pacific War subsim, it is perfectly viable.

However, your comparison of SHIII sales and SHIV sales is leaves out one very important item, MARKETING!

When Silent Hunter III was released, I was able to go to my local game store a pick up a copy the day of release. Now, when SHIV was released, they had not even ordered one copy in, so I traveled to another game store, same thing, no copies on the shelves. I must have gone to 10 different stores in a 35 mile radius, not one copy had been ordered from any of them. Most managers replied that they didn't even know the game was coming out. So, I went back to the first store and ordered a copy.

To sell, games, you must also market them properly, and that just wasn't done by UBI here in the US. It was as if they wanted the game to fail, or they knew it was a niche market, even though they claimed it was for the masses, and completely cut the marketing budget for SHIV.

[Faamecanic]

Add to the fact that SH4 sold a lot less copies in the US than SHIII and you have to question the viability of a Pacific theatre subsim.

Your making the same false assumption that UBI is making.

SH4 sold less than SH3 due to the fact that it was released with EVEN more bugs then SH3. Example:

1) Patrol Missions that repeated over and over and over (I almost went thru the whole war getting the same patrol assignment).

2) Sub on rails that ruined immersiveness

3) "ghost" figures with bugged fog display.

4) Eyes missing from crewmen (ruined immersivness)

5) AI that was as dumb and blind as a box of rocks (escorts wouldnt chase or DC me unless I stayed surfaced until within a few hundred meters).

This is just to name a few. And even after we PAID for a final patch, which is what we did with bug fixes included ONLY if you bought the Uboat expansion, it was STILL bugged.

I think if the Devs could have concentrated on an improved SH4 (90% MINOR bug free), using the SH4 engine with tweaks....SH5 would have sold like gangbusters.

[Sonarman]

Yes, I think there is a lot of truth in both your arguments, the bottom line is that since SH3 Ubi seems to have cut both the development & marketing budgets for the series. How much has it hurt sales? only they truly know that. What a tragedy to have an award winning and criticaly acclaimed title like SH3 which was given a proper budget and even had its dev time extended to include a dynamic campaign then to cut the legs off the series. They really need someone who can bang the table at production meetings and fight their corner for the future of the series as we know it.

It makes you wonder also what the new mobile phone and Ipod versions will do to the brand image, doesnt' seem like a very smart move to me, the series very identity is being eroded, what is it a top down action game a 3d arcade game or a serious simulation?

I must also say that bricks and mortar retailers also seem to be out to kill off PC gaming entirely, I think they have suffered massively in sales terms during the credit crunch. The UKs largest retailer GAME/Gamestation which had a virtual monopoly in the UK has recently closed 44 stores and their once extensive displays of PC titles have been slashed to the bare minimum of stock. Whilst the twice as expensive/profitable console titles festoon the walls.

[karamazovnew]

Actually, looking at Storm of War with its amazing graphics I couldn't help wondering.... Why shouldn't Oleg use his 3d engine for a sub sim?

1. Spherical world? Done
2. Weather? Done
3. Shores of France and Britain? Done
4. The ENTIRE air layer? Done

Plus they have the ship models and the Sub already made.
I wouldn't mind having a complete WW2 experience in Storm of War with interdependent theaters and sims:
- planes
- subs
- surface craft
- tanks
- even shooters over huge terrain with full city battles

Can you imagine the multiplayer? I know that WW2 Online has already been done but this could be a pseudo singleplayer/multiplayer experience. Plus, we'll soon get full HD head displays.. must think to the future. One humongous database of WW2 held by one company would be a great asset. You get the base files for free then start buying theaters, sims, and so on.
I don't care if it comes to take 200GB of my space :yeah:

[Sonarman]

Actually, looking at Storm of War with its amazing graphics I couldn't help wondering.... Why shouldn't Oleg use his 3d engine for a sub sim?


Adding control of naval and ground units to the SOW engine has already been mooted by Oleg and was at one point actually stated to be in development, (I'll try and dig up the reference on that one*).

You could say exactly the same thing about Ubi and a surface sim by the way, almost everything is there already. Ubi would be much better putting time into that rather than diluting the brand with Iphone/mobile arcade games.


*UPDATE
Here is that quote...

"AviaForum: Is it possible to organize combined server for many players?

Oleg Maddox: New engine allows to organize combined area for many players. If we get support from the publisher, we are ready to release MMO simulator based on BOB, where not only planes will be controlled by the players, but also tanks, cars, vessels, submarines, basically all elements of warfare that are present in the sim."

[Coldcall]

Actually, looking at Storm of War with its amazing graphics I couldn't help wondering.... Why shouldn't Oleg use his 3d engine for a sub sim?

1. Spherical world? Done
2. Weather? Done
3. Shores of France and Britain? Done
4. The ENTIRE air layer? Done

Plus they have the ship models and the Sub already made.
I wouldn't mind having a complete WW2 experience in Storm of War with interdependent theaters and sims:
- planes
- subs
- surface craft
- tanks
- even shooters over huge terrain with full city battles

Can you imagine the multiplayer? I know that WW2 Online has already been done but this could be a pseudo singleplayer/multiplayer experience. Plus, we'll soon get full HD head displays.. must think to the future. One humongous database of WW2 held by one company would be a great asset. You get the base files for free then start buying theaters, sims, and so on.
I don't care if it comes to take 200GB of my space :yeah:

That would be brilliant, and i think it will be the future of sim gaming.

[Echo76]

Oleg Maddox: New engine allows to organize combined area for many players. If we get support from the publisher, we are ready to release MMO simulator based on BOB, where not only planes will be controlled by the players, but also tanks, cars, vessels, submarines, basically all elements of warfare that are present in the sim."

Uh, that would be a dream come true. I'd love to give you "vets" a hard time with 24/7 air patrols. :03:
I'm also very anxious about the upcoming BoB, I hope it won't be destroyed by any DRM stuff.

[Task Force]

Uh, that would be a dream come true. I'd love to give you "vets" a hard time with 24/7 air patrols. :03:
I'm also very anxious about the upcoming BoB, I hope it won't be destroyed by any DRM stuff.

Oleg uses 1C (not UBSuck anymore for the US edition), and dosent like DRM, so Im sure its no worry...

[Tomi_099]

That would be brilliant, and i think it will be the future of sim gaming.
---------------------------------

:yeah: YES !! YES !! Great idea !! :up:

[Iron Budokan]

I think if the Devs could have concentrated on an improved SH4 (90% MINOR bug free), using the SH4 engine with tweaks....SH5 would have sold like gangbusters.

^^This.

[Nemesis43]

The next subsim will probably be Russian, like T-34 vs Tiger.

Frankly, that's a scary idea, given that many russian produced games either never get patched, or never get patched except for the original version in russian. That's if an english version is released at all.
That said, I do think a lot of very interesting non-mainstream games are produced in Russia. I just wish they'd be more consistent in support and more ambitious about selling and supporting english versions.
Too often, an english version is delayed 6 months or more, or is just never released at all, and too often games are released and immediately abandoned without much needed patching.

[Dowly]

I hope for a russian/eastern european take on a subsim. They tend to make some pretty good sims from time to time. :yep:

[Nemesis43]

I hope for a russian/eastern european take on a subsim. They tend to make some pretty good sims from time to time. :yep:

Well, SH3,4 and 5 are eastern european takes on subsims :03:
It's just that the publisher isn't.

[elanaiba]

Actually, looking at Storm of War with its amazing graphics I couldn't help wondering.... Why shouldn't Oleg use his 3d engine for a sub sim?

1. Spherical world? Done


Did they change to full world modeling in SOW ?! Cool! Because IL-2 had only limited map areas.

[Dowly]

Well, SH3,4 and 5 are eastern european takes on subsims :03:
It's just that the publisher isn't.

*Sigh* I knew I should've mentioned that I am aware of that. :O:

[mikeydredd]

"So... if you know of a self-financed, independent, experienced developer with oodles of money that has a passion for WW2 Subs then point them out to me, cuz I sure as heck can't find any."

So why did UbiSoft make such a poor job of SHV?

Apart from the graphics!!

The Dredd :arrgh!:

[janh]

I hope for a russian/eastern european take on a subsim. They tend to make some pretty good sims from time to time. :yep:

Although I think competition on this genre would only do good, I think Ubisoft Romania has earned a last chance to make up with patches, addons, and the promised content addition that followed the server outages. I think I had many a good time with SHIII, and if they enable me to buy and play SHV anywhere and anytime (in single player mode) without intruding my freedom, I will finally still buy this.

Seems like modders are still on board in sufficient numbers to turn this baby around (assume all the functions and basics required to make the 43-45 part come true are there). So I'll keep watching and hoping for the best.

If it doesn't happen, then I hope someone else will take this genre up...

[Wurschtie]

Just to add something to the thought of 'the future of simulation gaming':

I remember, when I was flying helicopters in FS9 and FSX in a community in the US, named hovercontrol, I met some people who were a combined Operation Flashpoint/Flight Simulator Clan. They played both titles, simulated combined air/ground missions with both games. And they didn't even mind the huge gap they had to jump when switching between both games. What they did with imagination can be done with a great bunch of gifted developers and modders. And it cannot be done with a huge publisher like Ubisoft.

Unite. Please. ;)

[Brag]

Extra, extra, extra. Latest news!
SHV sells one copy in a week at Amazon USA

[tommyk]

Extra, extra, extra. Latest news!
SHV sells one copy in a week at Amazon USA



no, wasn't me! :D

[Turbografx]

There are excellent smaller developers out there, but I doubt very much any of them can make an AAA title like Silent Hunter that will match our expectations....
Anything is possible, I suppose. But there is a lot more evidence that a game as good as SH3/SH4 can only be created by a large publisher like Ubisoft.




Neal,

What about SES' Jutland, Eagle Dynamics' DCS series, neoqb's ROF, eSim's SBpro, Graviteam's SF: Kharkov 1942, OBD's OFF etc, etc.

There are a lot of small, sometimes self-published developers that can produce very complex (more than SH), and often graphically acceptable (DCS, ROF, SF) sims.

My point, there are a lot of groups who can meet or exceed our expectations. Indeed, as far as fidelity, complexity and accuracy are concerned, SH would be beaten by all of the above. Some can equal it in graphics too.

[Julhelm]

Not so sure about that... this from Sid's Keynote speech at this years GDC

" We want you to feel good about yourself while you're playing. This went off the tracks with Flight Simulators: early on they were accessible and easy to play. Then we got to every iteration where they went more complex, more realistic.. and pretty soon the player went from I'm Good to I'm Confused. My plane is falling out of the sky. The fun went out of it. Keep your player feeling good about themselves."

Add to the fact that SH4 sold a lot less copies in the US than SHIII and you have to question the viability of a Pacific theatre subsim.
Yeah, and he's completely right on the money. I happen to be one of those gamers who used to spend hours on Silent Service and Red Storm Rising, but I can't really bother with the current crop of sims because, as Sid says, they're way too complex for my taste. I tried having fun with SH4 but after a while it becomes apparent that the gameplay consists of operating workstations on the sub while performing what is essentially the same kind of approach over and over again and by then the novelty has worn off. Don't even get me started on Sub Command or Dangerous Waters.

If we look at flight sims, they're far from dead. In fact, the Third Wire games are doing pretty damned well and they're 'lite' sims. If there was such a thing as a 'lite' nuke subsim I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

[Wurschtie]

Problem with some of the beforementioned studios is, that the studios are not game studios in the first place. Take DCS or ArmA for example. These publishers are mainly doing titles which sell pretty well to special customers like armies of real states. With these titles, it was luckily the case that the professional (as in 'serious') sim also had some parallels and quite a big market in the gaming sector, so a slightly different and a more or less simple version was released as a pc game.

Many publishers do not have the background of commercial 'serious' sims, which is a background that provides a lot of freedom to them in terms of funding.

[Adriatico]

I really don't know how small publisher group should be - to release Sub simulation without a proper explosion&splash of torpedo hit... as giant Ubi did... in a year 2010.
:dead:

[EAF274 Johan]

I wouldn't exactly praise Steel Fury, T34 vs Tiger or Rise of Flight as excellent games. They all do a lot of things right, but there is so much stuff not there (for example they rely very much on scripted missions). And I believe Steel Fury and T34 vs Tiger did not receive any patches.

My best hope is that the SH development team "goes indie" and becomes what Thirdwire has become for flight sims. Thirdwire sims are actually much more complex than their 'lite" label would have you expect. They make compromises (don't expect clickable cockpits or hi-res ground objects), but flight models and AI are generally pretty close to those of high-fidelity titles.

[Coldcall]

I wouldn't exactly praise Steel Fury, T34 vs Tiger or Rise of Flight as excellent games. They all do a lot of things right, but there is so much stuff not there (for example they rely very much on scripted missions). And I believe Steel Fury and T34 vs Tiger did not receive any patches.

My best hope is that the SH development team "goes indie" and becomes what Thirdwire has become for flight sims. Thirdwire sims are actually much more complex than their 'lite" label would have you expect. They make compromises (don't expect clickable cockpits or hi-res ground objects), but flight models and AI are generally pretty close to those of high-fidelity titles.

I agree Steel Fury is not a good example as the compoany went bust, no patch, and this is a real problem with some of the low budget eastrern Euopean dev houses.

[Julhelm]

I wouldn't exactly praise Steel Fury, T34 vs Tiger or Rise of Flight as excellent games. They all do a lot of things right, but there is so much stuff not there (for example they rely very much on scripted missions). And I believe Steel Fury and T34 vs Tiger did not receive any patches.

My best hope is that the SH development team "goes indie" and becomes what Thirdwire has become for flight sims. Thirdwire sims are actually much more complex than their 'lite" label would have you expect. They make compromises (don't expect clickable cockpits or hi-res ground objects), but flight models and AI are generally pretty close to those of high-fidelity titles.
Yeah, and that's really what defines realism as far as combat sims go. Do you have to use real-world tactics to prevail and is the gameplay built around employing those tactics? If the answer is yes then the game is realistic, regardless of if it has every station modelled in minute detail or not. The Third Wire sims are especially good because they leave out the minute, tedious stuff that doesn't really matter in the scope of the gameplay and lets you concentrate on the fighting.

[Reece]

Oh if only TK would redo EAW!:oops: That would be a dream come true!:o:yep:

[elanaiba]

Indeed.

[Faamecanic]

Or if a DECENT publisher would re-do B-17 flying fortress :) (RIGHT JU?...its been what....15 years now??).

And UBI.... KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF buying the rights to it.... I would rather WAIT ANOTHER 15 yrs if it meant we wouldnt see you sully the Name of Flying Fortress like you have Silent Hunter.

I wish I was a multi-billionare...I would fund the devs in romania and give them the budget and time to actually finish SH5. I will say again, it seems like SH3, worse with 4, and abismal with SH5...that the devs have the vision and talent. UBI chose not to give them the budget or time....

[Faamecanic]

Yes, I think there is a lot of truth in both your arguments, the bottom line is that since SH3 Ubi seems to have cut both the development & marketing budgets for the series. How much has it hurt sales? only they truly know that. What a tragedy to have an award winning and criticaly acclaimed title like SH3 which was given a proper budget and even had its dev time extended to include a dynamic campaign then to cut the legs off the series. They really need someone who can bang the table at production meetings and fight their corner for the future of the series as we know it.

It makes you wonder also what the new mobile phone and Ipod versions will do to the brand image, doesnt' seem like a very smart move to me, the series very identity is being eroded, what is it a top down action game a 3d arcade game or a serious simulation?

I must also say that bricks and mortar retailers also seem to be out to kill off PC gaming entirely, I think they have suffered massively in sales terms during the credit crunch. The UKs largest retailer GAME/Gamestation which had a virtual monopoly in the UK has recently closed 44 stores and their once extensive displays of PC titles have been slashed to the bare minimum of stock. Whilst the twice as expensive/profitable console titles festoon the walls.

QFT....agreed 100% mate.

[sav112]

B-17 flying fortress..
now that would be good, if well done. :yeah: Fight your way in and out to land back at base just making it:rock:

[SteamWake]

I wouldn't exactly praise Steel Fury, T34 vs Tiger or Rise of Flight as excellent games. They all do a lot of things right, but there is so much stuff not there (for example they rely very much on scripted missions). And I believe Steel Fury and T34 vs Tiger did not receive any patches.

My best hope is that the SH development team "goes indie" and becomes what Thirdwire has become for flight sims. Thirdwire sims are actually much more complex than their 'lite" label would have you expect. They make compromises (don't expect clickable cockpits or hi-res ground objects), but flight models and AI are generally pretty close to those of high-fidelity titles.

UBI most likely owns the rights to the franchise. :oops:

[Commie]

QFT....agreed 100% mate.

Maybe in the west, but here in Altex Romania, Galati we have two 7 metre by 1 metre displays: One with just PC games, and one with games for ALL the other consolesand handhelds put together. On top of that, the 'console' display still has about a 1 metre square for budget PC titles.:)

When I was in Poland I saw a similar or even greater ratio of PC to console games. That's why we have an ever increasing amount of titles from eastern Europe including more simulations, turn based strategy and other genres now neglected for the most part by the big developers in the west. And this is still happening in light of all the 'piracy' that eastern Europeans are blamed for. Culturally and not just economically, the east just isn't really into the sitting in front of a plasma screen bashing buttons on their Playstations. Hell, gamers are still widely regarded in the stereotypical way that when living in Australia I experienced way back in the 90's.

[janh]

Out of curiosity I just checked the amazon customer comments on the latest Ubisoft release Settlers 7 (Siedler 7): on amazone.de there are some 200 ratings, with less than 10% any good. 90% is one star. The deal breaker being the usual suspect, while it appears that the game otherwise could have been received well. But I was surprised that amazon.com has only 11 reviews so far?!

I wonder what is going on at Ubisoft company HQ these days... Maybe there is a little tension in the air in that office...

[PyRRhUs]

Hopefully this trend will be continuing when Splinter Cell: Conviction get released. I have been a fan of the series since Pandora Tomorrow but the new action stealth genre gameplay, DRM and the lack of Spy VS Mercenaries multiplayer mode I´m hoping to get a copy cheep as Assassin´s Creed II from amazon.co.uk. :|\\

[janh]

Hopefully this trend will be continuing when Splinter Cell: Conviction get released. I have been a fan of the series since Pandora Tomorrow but the new action stealth genre gameplay, DRM and the lack of Spy VS Mercenaries multiplayer mode I´m hoping to get a copy cheep as Assassin´s Creed II from amazon.co.uk. :|\\

This is hilarious! Not only SHV, also Assassin´s Creed II price reduced by almost 70% on amazon.co.uk -- for the PC version. And I am surprised that the Xbox and Playstation versions are also really cheap, 50% of original price -- Nov 2009 is pretty recent.

The British seem to be even "tougher, less tolerant" customers than the Germans. Respects!

Ubisoft must feel this next quarter, there is now way this is going unnoticed. I would die laughing if this would be the first company to struggle not with piracy, but with its own anti-customer -- sorry, of course: anti-piracy measures. Sunk by own torpedo...

[Adriatico]

Flaming Cliffs 2.0 is out, for LOMAC... without DRM.

It's not a topic... just good news for simulation fans:up: ...waiting for Oleg M.

[Athlonic]

Flaming Cliffs 2.0 is out, for LOMAC... without DRM.

It's not a topic... just good news for simulation fans:up: ...waiting for Oleg M.

Woauhou !! Oh la la !!!

Thanks for the info ! This will help waiting for the SH5 patch ^^

Time to get my X52 Pro out of the shelves :yeah:

PS : found this first impression summary about FC 2.0 in a forum :

Overall, I couldn’t be happier with this release. There are always going to be a few teething problems at first, but nothing major to report. The upgrade has breathed new life into FC and this will re-invigorate the community and keep us engrossed, allowing ED to shift resources onto DCS:A10.

With this release, ED have given a massive shot in the arm to our hobby and the genre, which was sorely needed. They have shown the way for independent self publishing studios to move forward without the monolithic restrictions and pressures dictated by out of touch and paranoid publishers, (yes UBI, I am looking at you), obsessed more with crippling DRM and treating their customers as criminals, than they are with quality and commitment to their craft.

Well done ED! See you in the skies.


Lool