Having issues with evading destroyers

[briangw]

So after buying SHV and becoming disappointed, I came back to SHIV with some of the newer mods and it's been a long time since I played.

My problem is, I really suck at evading destroyers and wanted to find out what tactics are suggested for doing so. One patrol I had, I lined up in a moonless night to take out as many ships as I could in a 4 destroyer-escorted convoy. I was facing east at periscope depth and the convoy was moving north, 2 destroyers on each side. the first destroyer passed me with the other one about 500 meters SE of me. As soon as I fired my forward tubes on two targets, I lowered the attack periscope and began diving. I assumed if I went straight into the convoy, staying hidden under the merchants' keels, I would be able to avoid the search area of the destroyers. Unfortunately, I didn't make it that close and was quickly taken out by that second destroyer's depth charges.

What are some good tactics in evading destroyers? Also, what is a good setup for taking on escorted convoys? In the past, I would stay around 1200 meters away from merchants, but this time, I tried getting closer as per some of the suggestions in SHV (probably my first mistake). Thanks in advance! :salute:

[A. Smith]

Well, I'd say you have two options.

Option one is to get even closer. That is, don't get near the convoy, get in the convoy. Dive to a safe depth, get yourself between two rows of ships, get to periscope depth then launch away. This should give you some time to dive far enough. This has the advantage of making your torpedoes harder to avoid, and you get to use your rear tube(s, if you,re using a fleet boat).

Option two is to fire from further away (2 km is rather safe). To me, this has one big advantage: it gives you a larger choice of target because you will have them all lined up in front of you. It's also safer, as you won't get detected on the approach.

In both cases, as soon as you're done firing, dive as deep as you can as fast as you can. when you,re at a safe depth, go silent and crawl away.

If this doesn't work and escorts start depth-charging you, you can't do much but stay deep and avoid being completely caught in a depth-charging run. Turn hard and raise your speed so that you're not directly under the path of the escort.

Last tip: pick the right direction to escape to. A good option is often the direction opposite where the convoy is going, as escorts are often to the front of the convoy.

[Steiger]

You have to keep yourself moving, and use time compress very sparingly. Your ears are your best defense in this situation. I use headphones when I play, it helps out a lot. After a destroyer picks you up on sonar, go to 2/3rds power and turn towards him while diving to about 20-50 feet above test depth. When you have him in front of you, go to silent speed. He will close and when he is right on top of you (you can tell by his engine noise), go to flank speed and down to test depth. As the depth charges start exploding, change course, go back up to your previous depth and go back to silent speed. After enough of this, the destroyers will run out of depth charges, determination, or just plain lose contact. If you can find a thermal layer, slink under it and stay there.

[magic452]

Some very good advice in the above two post.

If you have an escort within 500m at PD your in big trouble.
either get in close as A. Smith says or shoot from 2000 meters.
The best way to evade escorts is to avoid escorts.

From 2000m you can set up two shots, first one on low speed and the second on high. By the time the torpedoes hit you're already diving and turning away form the escorts. Most of the time they won't know where you are. If they do find you the advice given will serve you well.

I tried getting closer as per some of the suggestions in SHV (probably my first mistake). Thanks in advance!

The escort AI in sh5 is totally worthless as is most of the game right now.

Welcome back to the SH4 :salute: Good gaming choice by the way

Magic

[Bothersome]

Well, It depends on what mod I'm currently playing to determine best tactic.

I'll list a few ways I used to get away from active destroyers...

Vanilla: Get deep fast to 190 meters if in U-Boat or 325 feet if in fleet boat. Or about 50 feet or so past test depth. Once at depth, use ahead flank and all stop. If they are dropping on you ahead flank for 5 seconds or so and then all stop again to coast away. After coasting slows to about 1 knot, ahead 1/3rd (very slow) to sneak away.

TMO: Mostly same as above. Just takes more practice as they are determined. You may have out-wait the destroyers here.

RFB: The sub accelerates and decelerates like the real thing here. It will coast a LONG way before stopping. So use it to sneak out. Burst ahead at flank and then coast half mile away. Works great. Just know that rudder slows you fast in this mod. Not real sure that part is accurate... but it's what we got.

By the way... Make sure you have silent running active and no repair work going on.

[Armistead]

Make sure you read this by Ducimas, it explains the AI in detail.
http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ai.htm

I'll add a little or expand on what I do.

As he states, early war they have poor sonar, you attack correctly, you can about have you way.

No doubt the most important factor in an attack is water conditions. If you plan to attack in calm waters within 1500yards, you're gonna get caught, so plan out to shoot as soon as you get pinged and evade. If possible and you're patient enough, track awhile and see if water conditions change. Rough seas effect their sonar ability more than anything. My guess is it cuts the range by almost half. With rough waters, a narrow profile running silent, I've had DD's pass by a few hundred yards and never sense me.

Take brief looks with the scope. The way the game is programmed, that scope is easily seen.

Here is how I attack in calm waters...I wait until night, pray for some fog, but make sure I attack with the moon behind them, not me. I ID all the escorts, most larger DD's have better sonar and listeners than escorts. I also want to know what escort will be dumping on me first if I get caught.

Track and get in position about 4-5000 yards from the convoys course getting your stern aimed at the convoy. Stay on the surface keeping a narrow profile to a dd if it gets close, but you should shoot long before that. Obvious you want to try to hit, so set up and try to hit a target from long range, but your goal is to pull the escorts away. Once they spot your torps, they are programmed to come searching from where the torps came from. If you hit a ship, all the better, but your goal again is to pull the escorts away.

After you shoot haul arse flank keeping a narrow profile. You should be long gone before the escorts see your torps. By the time they come looking, you should be far enough that they can't see you. They'll stay hunting around where you shot from, while your setting up another surface attack. This time you can come in much closer. You probably can do a submerged attack if you want. I usually stay on the surface and attack from a weak flank where the escorts are gone. I'll get my hits and take off again...The DD's will again come looking, but your gone again...repeating the same attack over and over. It's simple, make sure the DD's are hunting where you once were, while your attacking 5000 yards away. Don't worry about sinking everything. If you can get them dead on the water, you can finish them later when everything moves on.

If you actually have dd's on you get as much depth as possible. If they're pinging, they can't hear you, so use speed as you wish. You can hear when a dd's making a run, so then it's time to go flank. With enough depth and speed, by the time his charges reach you, they should all fall behind.
I also add a small turn, about 10 degrees.

[Capt. Morgan]

You can order your sonar man to provide continous reports on the bearing and (rough) range of the nearest warship. This is usually the ship that has the best chance of detecting you. You'll want to keep this contact as close to 180 degrees as possible.


Stay slow. It takes nerves, but 1.5 kts is a good speed.

If everything's been quiet, and you hear some pings, do not assume that you have been detected and increase speed. If you think you know which escort is pinging, turn your tail to it, or just wait and see if they stop. Turning your boat to bring the active escort towards 180 degrees will often stop the pinging. If one direction doesn't work, try the other

When you hear loud, rapid pinging, then they have your exact location and you're no longer evading detection, you're evading depth charges.

The faster you go, the faster you can turn, so once you're detected, full speed is a good choice until the DC's drop, then flank. When you hear the DD's motors speed up, they are about to drop on you. hit flank, change direction (no more that 25d rudder though, otherwise you're almost a stationary target) then coast as soon as the DC's stop exploding.

whether or not you hear pinging, if you hear a close DD suddenly speed up, they are going to drop.

Take note of the depth of the thermal when you first pass it, and take note of the length if time it takes the depth-charges to explode from the time they were dropped. If it takes a long time, they're dropping the DC's deep... so come up to just under the thermal. When the time shortens, go deep again.

The strategy I use is to keep the escorts as close to 180 degrees as I can - all of the time - and to creep away at very slow speeds, very deep.

[Diopos]

...
The strategy I use is to keep the escorts as close to 180 degrees as I can - all of the time - and to creep away at very slow speeds, very deep.

Or 0 degrees ...

So it's sneak away or sneak towards your hunter.

[briangw]

Thanks for the advice, all. I'm going to take all of this into account when I continue my campaign tonight. :)

[Capt. Morgan]

Or 0 degrees ...

So it's sneak away or sneak towards your hunter.

Yes, you can do that too. Lets just say that I have a very strong preference for sneaking away from my hunters.

If I have to go in a certain direction (like away from the shore, or other escorts), or if I get surrounded, then I might try to put an escort at 0 degrees and run under him... but only so he can then be at 180 degrees. Pretty much, after launching the torps, my whole mission in life is to keep the hunters as close to 180d as I can while gradually increasing my distance.

[Capt. Morgan]

Thanks for the advice, all. I'm going to take all of this into account when I continue my campaign tonight. :)

If I may make a suggestion, choose one of the missions. They put you into contact quickly, and they are repeatable, so you can try out different tactics in the same situation to see what works best for your style of play... and let us know what you find that works:up:.

[rmr1701]

I've been enjoying the quick missions lately and so I experiment a lot with different tactics. If I encounter a group of DD's that seem more capable at finding me than usual I just set up on them and take them out first. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but the reaction of the others and the task force or convoy can be entertaining itself. The collisions, steaming in circles and so forth. If you get a TF or convoy that starts circling after you take out some escorts, sometimes you can set in one spot and just wait for them to come past you time and time agian.

[SurfnSea]

My 2 cents:

The above suggestions are very good; can't add much to that. I use the Trigger Maru mod and it's true that DDs are very determined. Using the thermal layer and sneaking away at 2 knots then flank after Dcs are dropped is how I go about it.

This whole subject of dealing with DDs is, really, a lot of the attraction of SH4. I've had my share of making a successful convoy attack and then have to spend a lot of time to escape. In fact one of my most recent enjoyable missions found me spending just over two hours of game time evading DDs and surviving with very little damage. It was pretty darn cool..probably because I made it through the ordeal.

[Bish0p]

Theres quite a few tactical ways to approach DD's.
Most of them are bad ideas but fun..lol.
Like: Kill them before they kill you. "which alerts the main group and messes things up"

Me I prefer the go as deep as possible and go under them approach.
Then pop up into the middle of the main group and obliderate them.
After which you can crash back to max depth and sneak away, leaving not a single destroyer damaged or destroyed. :salute:

[Frumpkis]

It can be a fun challenge to take out escorts, but mostly I try to role-play the game as a WWII sub commander, saving torpedoes for the strategically high-value targets like big merchants (or high-value warships). I'll only try the aggressive approach if there's just a single destroyer guarding a small convoy or harbor, where that will net me more freedom in attacking the unguarded targets.

Once you learn the timing for hitting flank speed and a quick turn when the DD is directly overhead, it's easier to survive. Sneaking away still takes awhile, but that's the essential method to learn.

There is an an option to fire off noise-maker decoys... I assume that's for use at a distance from the DD's, and then you sneak away while they chase the bubbles. But I always forget to use it. Does anyone here ever use that feature?

[HMCS]

I often think that taking out DD's should earn double renown of what you normally get for them; it's way harder than taking out a capital ship. They are quick, unpredictable and shifty customers. Personally, I think I get more satisfaction when I rub out a Kaibokan than I do for an big merchie or a cruiser.

I'm a huge fan of the "down the throat" shot, and I believe that it's saved my bacon on more than one patrol. I will often purposefully set up my rear tubes for it when making my approach (minimum depth, contact influence, high speed). Taking out one of the escorts increases your chances of survival exponentially. Especially if you are attacking in good weather where sonar conditions favor the tincans.

Learn the "down the throat" shot, grasshopper. It will save your life, one day.

[SurfnSea]

"There is an an option to fire off noise-maker decoys... I assume that's for use at a distance from the DD's, and then you sneak away while they chase the bubbles. But I always forget to use it. Does anyone here ever use that feature?"
Rarely used here. Unless firing Bernard out the stern tube so he can create bubbles (after eating the cooks food) counts? Since we'd like Bernard to be able to perform this task more than once we have to go back and fetch him making it an inefficient method of escape. On the upside, it's impressive to see how long Bernard can hold his breath. And, til now, I always thought he held his breath because he was underwater...maybe it's because he's creating bubbles...dunno.

[tomoose]

Can't add much to what has already been said (and I've taken some notes myself, LOL). I concur with SurfnSea regarding TMO. The DDs are tenacious.

The key aspect is patience and using your ears and/or the info from your sonar.

If you try to press home your attack while you know a DD is bearing down on you from short range you've already cut drastically into your chances of getting out of there in one piece.

During a crash-dive, if possible, I won't turn immediately as diving and turning slows your overall descent. Get your boat deep, fast first then concentrate on manoeuvering. As mentioned in a previous post, try to visualize where the DDs are and anticipate their runs. Hitting Flank speed when they're definitely coming over you is a must. Go deep, sprint, turn, then go quiet. Repeat as necessary, LOL.:salute:

[briangw]

If I may make a suggestion, choose one of the missions. They put you into contact quickly, and they are repeatable, so you can try out different tactics in the same situation to see what works best for your style of play... and let us know what you find that works:up:.

Great idea, I never considered that. I will try that too. Thanks for the help everyone. This has been invaluable. I am getting better at it; haven't died as much :yeah:

[SurfnSea]

I am getting better at it; haven't died as much

If only in real life we could not die as much; that would be cool.

I too found the information here very helpful.

[Admiral8Q]

If only in real life we could not die as much; that would be cool.
:haha:Yep. Although in real life you don't die as much. Only once. ;)

As for avoiding destroyers detecting you, I find that you do not need to go all the way down to test depth. If you go at least 20-40 feet below the thermal layer then they have a hard time finding you. Plus if the depth charges do start dropping on you you can quickly go deeper by speeding up and pressing the "d" key to dive quickly. I don't really like the crash dive in SH3/SH4. I'm an old school manual hands on captain. I prefer taking control of each station depending on the situation. Plus at say 180 feet, once you're inside the convoy you can come up to periscope depth alot quicker.