Ubisoft and modders need to work together re patches

[Coldcall]

I dont know if this would be possible to organise but i'm thinking it would save a load of time if Ubisoft could inform the modding community what they will fix and what they wont fix in upcoming patches, so that the moddders have some sort of idea about which parts of the game they can mod without feeling their work will become redundant after a patch.

Why should Ubsioft listen to such a request for involving modders in their plans for patches? Because modders's work have contributed greatly to extra sales for all SH titles, and the overal longevity of the SH series.
Because in some cases modders have fixed large parts of the games for Ubisoft, sparing them of the high development costs involved. This would be greatly beneficial to Ubsioft and a transparency over the patches may go a long way to giving something back to our long-suffering community.

Who might be able to persuade Ubisoft to be open with the modders re patches? Well whoever runs this website shoudl surely have some sort of influence or be able to get the ear of Ubisoft management, since this forum is the best and most visitied submarine sim themed destination on the internet.

So whoever runs this site...seriously you could make a good case to Ubi why they should be transparent over what will and wont be looked at in the official patches.

Am i being too optimistic?

[jwilliams]

:yep: yes i think your being too optimistic.

[robbo180265]

Waaaaay too optimistic:yep:

[Letum]

It's been done before (See IL2), but it's a mine field for developers and
just not worth it. Too many things that can go wrong.

[Noren]

Well they dont communicate at all, exceptions for the DRM-problems.

They did say that the devs and modders need each other, my take on this is that the developers have gotten dependent on modders to finish it.

I dont buy the argument that simulators are to complex a game to make, I didn't see that in the early days. Now its graphics and animations that take priority, whereas tactics, AI and manuals are a 5min job.

[Coldcall]

It's been done before (See IL2), but it's a mine field for developers and
just not worth it. Too many things that can go wrong.

Did it work on IL2?

The devs dont need to share much other than a simple list of what they intend or do not intend to patch. That would at least give the modders an idea about the final state of the patched game so they can mod around it - so to speak.

Anyays, i guess you guys are right, it just seems such a shame that a little two-way communication could save everyone mucho time, work and money.

[Letum]

Did it work on IL2?

The patch is due for release soon.

1C is a very unique company tho. Everything Ubi gets wrong with PR and
communication, 1C gets right without even trying.
Several members of the 1C Dev team, including the lead designer, are out
on the forums at least once a week giving updates, answering questions
and replying to posts in a fully open and honest way. That's the kind of
environment a modding team can work with the Devs in.

[CCIP]

I don't see why this CAN'T work, and the devs have been communicating with modders here a fair amount as well - but it is a bit more likely with 1C, mostly because the developers of IL-2 (Maddox games) have a lot more autonomy in what they do, especially when it comes to IL-2 which is already an established commercial hit that is well past its prime. It is not expected to make a lot of money anymore, nor do potential intellectual property (and money) issues really get in the way. They might with a new game that is still commercially hot - I mean, let's face it, when two sides are working together and one is benefitting from the game selling at $60 while the other isn't, there is an ethical issue.

Meanwhile, Oleg Maddox still basically owns his game and has made plenty of money off it, so it seems that as long as a project has his blessing, it becomes in all respects much simpler to get through. It's easier to get it through than it would be with a complex company such as Ubisoft (and, vice versa, also a lot easier to get through than with a small independent developer who really needs to defend their chances of making a profit off their own content (i.e. not just code but also game data changes) - see Storm Eagle Studios, for example). Someone like Dan is far from the owner of SHV and thus projects like this are obviously much more complicated and are more dependent on Ubi's legal and marketing departments for going ahead. So in this case, modding is a convenient 'grey area' for everyone.

[Coldcall]

Well they dont communicate at all, exceptions for the DRM-problems.

They did say that the devs and modders need each other, my take on this is that the developers have gotten dependent on modders to finish it.

I dont buy the argument that simulators are to complex a game to make, I didn't see that in the early days. Now its graphics and animations that take priority, whereas tactics, AI and manuals are a 5min job.

Ya defintiely seems that way.

I'm wondering why the community of modders does not get together, license a modern graphics engine and make their own U-boat or sub simulators.

Lets see how much would a game like this cost to develop? 20 devlopers and artists at 50k-100k each per yearso dev over 2 years would be between 2-4 million. Sales of SH will reach 200k quite easily so at 50 a pop you have $10million market - conservatively. Okay lost of extra costs but still it would be profitable.

Im really surprised an independent developer has not stepped in seeing there is a reasonable market for sub sims.

I was also surprised to see SH5 outselling Mass Effect 2. Okay ME2 has been out for about 6/7 weeks now but its way more populist sort of game.

[baffa]

I know Paradox games and modders help each other from time to time, they even released a game with a mod that comes along with it.
Paradox have obviously seen the potential of getting alot of free help from 100's of people who pokes through their scripts and other things editable every day.
Let's hope UBI will spot the same opportunity and have more open discussions with the community. Right now you can feedback the games but it's a one way communication, you don't even know if they read it at all..

[CCIP]

You have a 10-million market but what you don't have is a budget, and that is important. Modding is something that is easy to digest as a hobby - it's already done on a sort-of-finished platform and it is a kind of weird mixture of development and play. Development from scratch would be problematic. There are start-up costs and I honestly don't think most of us would be willing to work on a development project of that scale and complexity for free - and if you pay them, you can't pay with tomorrow's profits... Borrowing money on tomorrow's profits is also exceptionally risky. In theory it's easy, but the risk of getting burned is really high and I wouldn't blame anyone for being rather intimidated by it.

I don't doubt there is a lot of talent here who would be willing to work on something like that. But until someone comes along with some cold hard cash and solid business sense, it won't happen.

I hang around a lot of creative types and see this type of thing everywhere. There is more talent than you can shake a stick at, but sadly much of the time that talent cannot go anywhere because any major undertaking needs both an initial investment and a healthy dose of business sense. Ironically, the creative types - which modders are too - are almost never the types of characters who have either the funds or the business sense to do something like this.

Honestly, I think all it would take for something like this to happen is even one person in the community who can put up a major investment, take up the business side of such a project, and be ethical enough not to screw developers over. However such a person is yet to come along, and I personally don't think it'll ever actually happen...

[jwilliams]

Right now you can feedback the games but it's a one way communication, you don't even know if they read it at all..

Is it?????

I've seen the devs helping the modders plenty....

Here is one exaple :-

Wait for patch 1, easy fix afterwards ;)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=162757

And theres plenty more if you look.

Sure they could tell us more. but i guess they dont truely know how much time they have to patch this game.... depends on sales with how long Ubi surport the game.

[chaparral02]

Why should Ubsioft listen to such a request for involving modders in their plans for patches?So all the people that own SH5 and only install the Ubsioft patches will never have the bugs fixed...

Not every person in the world that buys SH5 vists this forum or wants to go looking for loads of different mods to install..

[Coldcall]

You have a 10-million market but what you don't have is a budget, and that is important. Modding is something that is easy to digest as a hobby - it's already done on a sort-of-finished platform and it is a kind of weird mixture of development and play. Development from scratch would be problematic. There are start-up costs and I honestly don't think most of us would be willing to work on a development project of that scale and complexity for free - and if you pay them, you can't pay with tomorrow's profits... Borrowing money on tomorrow's profits is also exceptionally risky. In theory it's easy, but the risk of getting burned is really high and I wouldn't blame anyone for being rather intimidated by it.

I don't doubt there is a lot of talent here who would be willing to work on something like that. But until someone comes along with some cold hard cash and solid business sense, it won't happen.

I hang around a lot of creative types and see this type of thing everywhere. There is more talent than you can shake a stick at, but sadly much of the time that talent cannot go anywhere because any major undertaking needs both an initial investment and a healthy dose of business sense. Ironically, the creative types - which modders are too - are almost never the types of characters who have either the funds or the business sense to do something like this.

Honestly, I think all it would take for something like this to happen is even one person in the community who can put up a major investment, take up the business side of such a project, and be ethical enough not to screw developers over. However such a person is yet to come along, and I personally don't think it'll ever actually happen...

I totally agree with most of your appraisal, and quite rightly as you say; without the initial seed money and proper discipline it likely not be very fruitful.

Oh well :(

[Adam84]

Totally agree, even for basic public relations it would be worth their while maintaining regular contact with the community through their forums. I recollect with the release of Empire Total War and subsequent uproar about it's quality on release, EA promptly set up a 'daily update' to keep fans informed on progress. Perhaps a daily update is alot to ask for but weekly? monthly? something? please!

[Arclight]

So whoever runs this site...
You don't know? :huh:

Shame on you, go sit in the corner untill you figure it out. :stare: :O: