View Full Version : Amazing! Why do companies release these unfinished products?
elkinallen
03-17-10, 05:15 PM
After playing, for the past years, all these SH series games, after all the years of producing this series, having all this user feedback and all the material to work with, all this experience with this series,,, how is it that SHV is released as if it is the first game of the series? As if these people just released their first game! Why is it that SHV is released even missing such basic things that the previous versions had?! Why do they do such a thing? Do they lauph and say something like: ''Just get it out there. It is not finished but we have a loyal following that will pay for our continuing efforts to complete this game. The patches to come will fix all that our paying customers want. We know it is an unfinished game, but the time it will take to properly finish,,, look at all the profits we will lose by taking the time to really complete this game!! Let's just kick it out there and let our paying beta testers do our work for us! Afterall, its not like they can get a refund or anything like this! We got'm by the nads!''
After reading through the thread called ''Patch wishlist'' I just got mad!
Is this really it? Is this what they do? Really! What is the answer?
jwilliams
03-17-10, 05:43 PM
After playing, for the past years, all these SH series games, after all the years of producing this series, having all this user feedback and all the material to work with, all this experience with this series,,, how is it that SHV is released as if it is the first game of the series? As if these people just released their first game! Why is it that SHV is released even missing such basic things that the previous versions had?! Why do they do such a thing? Do they lauph and say something like: ''Just get it out there. It is not finished but we have a loyal following that will pay for our continuing efforts to complete this game. The patches to come will fix all that our paying customers want. We know it is an unfinished game, but the time it will take to properly finish,,, look at all the profits we will lose by taking the time to really complete this game!! Let's just kick it out there and let our paying beta testers do our work for us! Afterall, its not like they can get a refund or anything like this! We got'm by the nads!''
After reading through the thread called ''Patch wishlist'' I just got mad!
Is this really it? Is this what they do? Really! What is the answer?
The simple answer is MONEY.
Yes everything comes down to money..... I guess Ubisoft gave the devs XX months to make the game. The devs made the game but ran out of time to finish it properly. They needed more time. but time cost MONEY.
So MONEY is the reason.
Tomi_099
03-17-10, 05:56 PM
The simple answer is MONEY.
Yes everything comes down to money..... I guess Ubisoft gave the devs XX months to make the game. The devs made the game but ran out of time to finish it properly. They needed more time. but time cost MONEY.
So MONEY is the reason.
----------------
I think the same !!:hmmm:
...Ships and Water !!..Look this !!
YOUTUBE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v1P42VS6d0&NR=1
.Engin..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMw8cqTqCok&NR=1
.
.Sound !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsoNeg2fV-Q
.
The main point in my view is if they rushed it and it’s so obviously unfinished as we all know and can read the very long lists of problems what are the things the Community cant see that scares me.:cry:
The old point nothing is released finished in this day of patches is just a lazy view point that its ok to accept this nowadays that we as consumers just buy half arsed gaming products.
It’s a defensive as a wet paper towel
I love the look of it but do I trust that the Ai on this works, the physics involved in most things in the game. You can sink a million tons but is it a fair challenge does the enemy hunt you down realistically et etc. I’d rather sink one hundred tons that I knew was realistically played out. .
Iron Budokan
03-17-10, 06:07 PM
Because they know people will still buy them.
No. Seriously. Sometimes it really is that simple. Hence:
"There's a sucker born every minute." -- P.T. Barnum
They release unfinished games because of idiots like us that can't wait to get our hands on the next "great" game. Yet we whine like 3 year olds that doesn't get a lolipop at the store from mom, when we get a unfinished game. Secondly, one should think that humans was able to learn from their experiences but it looks like we don't. I've seen monkeys and dogs learn faster.
it's time to sit down and give this a serious thought. Will YOU rush to the local gameshop next time?
i bet you'll do ;)
Lanzfeld
03-17-10, 07:43 PM
Why the hell do people buy this stuff is the real question.
kylania
03-17-10, 07:47 PM
Why the hell do people buy this stuff is the real question.
Better than nothing. :)
Sunfighter
03-17-10, 07:52 PM
I learned a while ago to be nervous of any PC game that has a day 1 patch with it.
scrapser
03-17-10, 07:57 PM
The reason is money but that is the sympton not the cause. The reason there's never enough money (and time) is because the simulations have become too complex to produce using the current marketing model employed by the development houses. They need to come up with a different approach to financing each project. Otherwise, it will continue to get worse.
The reason is money but that is the sympton not the cause.
Whatever it is, who can really judge them for it? They are not a small dev studio but a big publisher group with own studios, and more importantly they are stock corporation. They have to present something to the stockholders, and if its not a permanent upwards trend of revenue, there may financial consequences. I doubt any stockholder would care what they sold, what quality, novelty etc. They likely only care about how they sell it, and that it generates revenue and gets them a dividend and higher stock value.
The times that a company would earn just enough money for paying its employees, rent and necessary investments in R&D while having satisfaction of the customer in mind, those times are over. Today it is "make all the money you can, risk alienating customers but back yourself up legally with tons of disclaimers, and bump up you CEO's salary". Maybe a bit to cynic and simplified, but see the recent banking fiascos in the US and Europe for the rest of the details!
The question for the customers should be: How far to let them get with this? When is it time to ask them whether they haven't earned enough? Or whether it is right for them to expect to become billionaire in 6 months? Obama tried to do something about the banking problem in the US but basically was brought down by the opposition. In Europe much stricter measures have been implemented by now, with more to follow. Europeans definitely have less tolerance for such situations, which might be due to valuing social fairness and equality higher that pure capatalistic principles.
Now, let's see how gamers think about software industry, release quality and DRM... I guess Ubisoft might now have a little better idea about that.
krashkart
03-17-10, 09:39 PM
I tend to wait till the price of the game comes down twenty or thirty dollars. By that time most of the bugs have been patched. :)
jwilliams
03-17-10, 09:58 PM
I tend to wait till the price of the game comes down twenty or thirty dollars. By that time most of the bugs have been patched. :)
LOL, its funny how the cheaper product is better than the full priced one.
It used to be the otherway round. before the internet. Games were released and didnt need patches.
The bargan bin versions were lite. didnt have the full manual.
Now you dont even get a full manual in the full priced version. just a pamplet. :nope:
So now the bargan bin version is the same. (No.... its better because its fully patched.) than the original full priced version.
elkinallen
03-17-10, 09:59 PM
Ragtag, If I could partake in somekind of,, anyway, I would definately join in any serious boycotting or whatever. This would force these fine people to do something other than charge a paying public anything! not to mention $50! If they are so pressured by their publishers, stockholders or whatever, then they need to do something different. Here is a good question! If we were able to return this product for a refund, how many buyers w o u l d return it?!?! You know what this would do? Some may say- ''Yeah! It would shut'm down and we wouldn't have this product''. WRONG! Someone else would take up the deal and do it right in allignment with the laws of free market competition, supply and demand etc.
But right now there is no incentive for competition because these jackasses can sell a product void of liability!!! I.e. protection from refund demand. ,, WHAT? Class action?! Who said that?!
Janh. This is N O T the way to view and accept this kind of thing.
Relate it with,, say, a car! You get the car and realize it has only 3 wheels, 2 sparkplugs,, and so on. Not only can you not return it for a refund, b u t you can't even go out and buy the missing parts because the 'patch' is not out. If it ever comes out. What are you going to say then? Hmm? ''Oh they are poor slobs doing the best that they feel they should at my expense, I don't mind being charitible and paying for their ineptness''?
As far as 'lets not buy their products'' sounds great1 We all complain about the airlines nickle and diming us to death, but it is an evolved attribute of society in todays times. You can't just not do it. Like movie tickets. 12 bucks! We won't not buy because it is a part of our society. Gas prices,, I can go on. The bottom line is- Deliver as advertised!!!! How about this?
Sorry for the spelling errors. The spellcheck is redirecting me wildly.
FIREWALL
03-17-10, 10:16 PM
Why are so many here embarrassed to admit it.
It's the Stupidity of the consumer.
Ubi released SH3&4 bugy and unfinished and needing patches.
Did anyone honestly think this one would be different ?
If anyone did the screwing just, look in the mirror.:haha:
All games are like this. Every release you go to the forums and hear the cries of BOYCOTT and REFUND and MY MUMMY IS A MAN... hmm scratch the third one...
Blame the internet and the ability to patch...
Steeltrap
03-17-10, 10:52 PM
Blame the internet and the ability to patch...
An even more precise statement might be....
"blame consumers' acceptance of second-rate quality at release (as expressed through continuing to buy at time of release) on the grounds that patches will occur that fix everything"
An even more precise statement might be....
"blame consumers' acceptance of second-rate quality at release (as expressed through continuing to buy at time of release) on the grounds that patches will occur that fix everything"
When all games come out needing patches... What else is there to do but not play games...
Real life scares me :88)
Steeltrap
03-17-10, 11:06 PM
When all games come out needing patches... What else is there to do but not play games...
If enough people stopped buying games from publishers known to release crap, companies that want to survive would have no choice but to increase release quality.
So long as consumers are indifferent to the quality of what they purchase, the quality will reflect that indifference.
I didn't buy SH5 nor did I buy Napoleon TW; SH5 because of OSP and NTW due to the abysmal quality of Empire TW (which was also given very poor support, with SEGA/CA for a long time denying the game had any issues).
I've had it with SEGA/CA and Ubi. So far that only costs me potential enjoyment; one day it might cost them if a few million more started seeing it the way I do (not suggesting people should, although I'd certainly like it if they did).
Not looking for a medal of martyrdom, mind you!
Cheers
If enough people stopped buying games from publishers known to release crap, companies that want to survive would have no choice but to increase release quality.
So long as consumers are indifferent to the quality of what they purchase, the quality will reflect that indifference.
I didn't buy SH5 nor did I buy Napoleon TW; SH5 because of OSP and NTW due to the abysmal quality of Empire TW (which was also given very poor support, with SEGA/CA for a long time denying the game had any issues).
I've had it with SEGA/CA and Ubi. So far that only costs me potential enjoyment; one day it might cost them if a few million more started seeing it the way I do (not suggesting people should, although I'd certainly like it if they did).
Not looking for a medal of martyrdom, mind you!
Cheers
Does empire totalwar have playable multiplayer campaign yet? This was an advertised feature. I got sick of checking if it had been added.
Steeltrap
03-17-10, 11:54 PM
Does empire totalwar have playable multiplayer campaign yet? This was an advertised feature. I got sick of checking if it had been added.
Don't know. I don't really play it as I got frustrated over various problems in it. I think they might have done some sort of beta MP. You can check TW Center for info.
[Update: check this and other posts in the section - MP Beta Campaigns (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=331977)]
Napoleon TW has MP campaign, but I've not bought it.
jwilliams
03-18-10, 12:01 AM
Don't know. I don't really play it as I got frustrated over various problems in it. I think they might have done some sort of beta MP. You can check TW Center for info.
[Update: check this and other posts in the section - MP Beta Campaigns (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=331977)]
Napoleon TW has MP campaign, but I've not bought it.
I'll never buy a sega game again, after ETW. it still doesnt work properly.
the bink video just skips all the time. and game is full of bugs... STILL :nope:
Don't know. I don't really play it as I got frustrated over various problems in it. I think they might have done some sort of beta MP. You can check TW Center for info.
[Update: check this and other posts in the section - MP Beta Campaigns (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=331977)]
Napoleon TW has MP campaign, but I've not bought it.
Will check it out but I rarely play it. Only did one lengthy campaign but moved on quickly. Strange since the other TW's gave me many hours of play time...
Napolean i'm not even remotely interested in as well.
Immacolata
03-18-10, 12:57 AM
I didn't buy SH5 nor did I buy Napoleon TW; SH5 because of OSP and NTW due to the abysmal quality of Empire TW (which was also given very poor support, with SEGA/CA for a long time denying the game had any issues).
I've had it with SEGA/CA and Ubi.
Not looking for a medal of martyrdom, mind you!
Cheers
Funny, I had the very same experience with Creative Assembly. They keep doing the same game after game. First with RTW, then MTW2, now ETW. The same bugs or "glitches" plague the game since the beginning. I stayed clear of ETW because of that. I sure hope, really sure hope, that SH V will be fixed properly so I can buy it. Please, ubi, don't be the new CA!
michaelws
03-18-10, 01:00 AM
I am still playing SH4 modded. Haven't bought SHV. I am actually playing the game of GO now. Full circle. Great strategy...not much on visuals...bug no bugs. Maybe Chess next and then Bridge?
michaelws
03-18-10, 01:01 AM
Wow...I just noticed I've been on this forum (quietly) for 5 years, this month. Sure flies.
The Enigma
03-18-10, 04:34 AM
I agree fully. :up:
...I've had it with SEGA/CA and Ubi. So far that only costs me potential enjoyment; one day it might cost them if a few million more started seeing it the way I do (not suggesting people should, although I'd certainly like it if they did).
...
lehovsky
03-18-10, 04:45 AM
If you don`t know what its all about, the answer is always - about money.
Game publishers forgot that to be trully successfull two things (which one of them is apparently forgoten ) has to be achieved:
- profits
- REPUTATION
It is sad to say, but we got ourselfs once again fooled. Ubi thought that no matter what, "fanatics" will buy it. Unfortunatelly they had right...
They have released unfinished product, and used us as beta testers, which ironically, they don`t have to pay, but in fact, We are paying them!
Why Ubi can`t learn? Look at the Mafia II or Starcraft II developers, both games were to be released near last christmas. They knew that their product is not finnished, so they delayed the release. Because they know that REPUTATION is equal to money.
I hope, that like with Mafia (first game), there will be an unknown studio, that will develop their own or use opensource graphics engine, and basing on our feedback from this forum, they will create a real U-boot simulation. It doesn`t have to look nice, it can be average with graphics, but realistic, entertaining, well thought and open sourced, so modders can add something of their own.
Fanatic SH Pole, in dark Ubi hole... arrrr that`s me:D
jwilliams
03-18-10, 05:06 AM
Why Ubi can`t learn? Look at the Mafia II or Starcraft II developers, both games were to be released near last christmas. They knew that their product is not finnished, so they delayed the release. Because they know that REPUTATION is equal to money.
Yes those two publishers (Take Two & Blizzard), i have great faith in. Never had an unfinished game from either of them.
It can be annoying when you want a release date for a game... as the answer is "it ready when its ready". But i would rather wait a little longer and have a finished product . Than have to rely on Modders to finish the game for me.
No offence ment modders. You do a great job.
They release it unfinished because they can, we people who actually buy these unfinished, semi broken products have to a degree accepted half finished games and happily waits for patches to fix things later on the road. We cannot always know if the game is gonna be broken or not but, both Silent hunter III and IV was indeed quite unfinished and had tons of bugs..
If only we could learn some day, if you bought a new car with the same poor quality as new PC games or any other software that company wouldn't even survive for a week but when it comes to software we seems to accept the software kinda works, on most computers.. :)
Uber Gruber
03-18-10, 05:37 AM
I love visiting SH5 forums and reading all the complaints people have. I feel so proud and smug for not buying it. It took 5 years but SH3 now does everything I want it to so I see no reason to 'downgrade' it to SH5 - not whilst the existing DRM system is in place and the bug list is as long as Duke Nukem 3Ds :rotfl2:
jwilliams
03-18-10, 05:50 AM
I love visiting SH5 forums and reading all the complaints people have. I feel so proud and smug for not buying it. It took 5 years but SH3 now does everything I want it to so I see no reason to 'downgrade' it to SH5 - not whilst the existing DRM system is in place and the bug list is as long as Duke Nukem 3Ds :rotfl2:
I didnt buy SH4...... i was first put off by the "Aimed at casual players" that it was advertised as.... Then when i read Neals review. It turned out it wasnt so much aimed at casual players but was half finished. So i didnt buy it.
SH4 didnt sell very well. And i thought Ubi may have learnt from it. I did buy SH5. SH3 graphics are dated now and i wanted a new sub game.
It appears they blamed the pirates and not the quality of the game for its lack of sales.
When will they learn. :nope:
Guess i should've known better. :damn:
But i look at SH5 as being better than SH3. ONCE its fully patched and modded. :yeah:
Uber Gruber
03-18-10, 06:09 AM
But i look at SH5 as being better than SH3. ONCE its fully patched and modded. :yeah:
I have the same optimisim my friend. This little community of ours has some great modders. I imagine SH5 has teh potential to be a top notch game in about a year, maybe even 6 months if we're lucky - providing DRM is dropped or course, else its irrelevent.
That said, SH3 has come a long way in the last 6 months....and who knows what the next 6 months has in store :yep:
thruster
03-18-10, 06:10 AM
ok, my 2c worth,
im not condoning the release and sale of a s***t product. but,
im beginning to think im lucky to just get a new sub sim, one that in alot of ways is a huge improvement on the previous. lets face it, i think we are a small demographic seeking a unique result. in this era of walk thru spray bullet shoot'em ups, why would a company invest a huge amount of time and effort perfecting this?
instead we perhaps have a compromise. we have the foundation of an awesome game and theyve given us a long leash for the fanatics to toil with. is it accurate to say that an impatient teenager can have some fun with the finished stock product? cos that what im guessing theyve aimed for.
i think when you want a niche product, sadly in someways you get what you can get. thank god its moddable.
ok, my 2c worth,
im not condoning the release and sale of a s***t product. but,
im beginning to think im lucky to just get a new sub sim, one that in alot of ways is a huge improvement on the previous. lets face it, i think we are a small demographic seeking a unique result. in this era of walk thru spray bullet shoot'em ups, why would a company invest a huge amount of time and effort perfecting this?
instead we perhaps have a compromise. we have the foundation of an awesome game and theyve given us a long leash for the fanatics to toil with. is it accurate to say that an impatient teenager can have some fun with the finished stock product? cos that what im guessing theyve aimed for.
i think when you want a niche product, sadly in someways you get what you can get. thank god its moddable.
I don't think an impatient teenager can have any fun with this game ;) They need to be able to actually hit something with the torpedoes but even the manual have problem describing how to actually aim!
This game have alot of potentional for reaching out to a broader playerbase. I know for a fact my father is really interested in simulations but he really needs alot of help to get going, the manual for example must contain everything you need to know to get started or have a more basic manual but a solid tutorial ingame that show step by step how to do things.
There are so many half finished things ingame it's almost crazy, nothing feels Solid, the tutorial and the story starts really cool but 10 mins later when it's all over you learned Nothing and the feeling is lost.
I'm not sure I ever will buy a silent hunter game and I almost hope they don't ever make one again if this is the quality we will get in the future.
Maybe it's better to take a diffrent route and make it a true niche game, look a railworks, it's an expensive game but people enjoy it anyway and the developers get the funds to make it better.
Armistead
03-18-10, 09:55 AM
I guess people have different views. If I step in crap why walking in the field, I know it smells and wipe it off my shoe..In fact, I try to walk around it..
Others, they will look at crap and call it Fertilizer....they see the long time result and hope things will eventually grow.
An even more precise statement might be....
"blame consumers' acceptance of second-rate quality at release (as expressed through continuing to buy at time of release) on the grounds that patches will occur that fix everything"
Well, I assume most "casual consumers" aren't aware of the true state of the game they buy because they won't spent hours researching the www for forums and opinions. And most will just play it as is, and get it patched only if they are stuck anywhere. And how many buy it anyway in the weeks before the 1st or 2nd patch has made it onto the DVD?
I strongly disagree with the strategy of present publisher betting on patching after release, rather than delaying a release another 2 month for thorough beta testing. And I also would love to see the old times come back when you'd get a big boxed version with a nice CD and a thick, informative and even educative manual, a cloth map or whatever gimmicks in there that made it worth the money. Because as it stands now -- what is the added-value that you as a legal, paying customer get with your tiny plastic box an 2 page manual as compared to the cracked download?
I would say many customers do think the same way, and they sales numbers as well as the pirating downloads support that argument. Customers already don't buy low quality releases anymore for full price, and even less if they are DRM-infested. But do the companies see that correlation yet? Yes, so do, but others don't.
For the rest, subsimmers like the people here that have grown up with Silent Service on C64, AOTD and the previous SH releases, things are more complicated. We expect a lot more, for example realism, all features present of the previous releases, and something new that we all wishes for like wolf packs etc.
I see the argument that SHV is unfinished, missing content. Neal already asked for the definition of "unfinished" in his review. Is is "major bugs left"? Yes, but seemingly there are very few of those. Minor bugs? Many, as you can get from the forum. Many of those "minor bugs" are also just lacking development time, for example the AI that still doesn't get along well with harbors an coastal environments (in SHIII we had the same). So I'd rather count that as a missing upgrade/feature.
Is unfinished equal "missing content"? Hmmh, yes: don't touch what is broken, and particularly don't take anything away that you offered a customer in a previous version of your software -- SH is just not a new game idea, but a sequel, an upgrade.
But if you as Ubisoft, and if you study your EULA, they don't even guarantee that your new game is suitable as a entertainment product. They basically give you a product that you can play, but they don't tell you that you can still apply the same expectations that you had for SHIII. No, if the 43-45 missing and missing subs, they might want to minimize initial content of new games, and sell you addons later. So all they sold you with SHV is a "minimum" game.
I only can give you one advice: Don't buy anything that you have any doubts about, or that you don't feel is clearly worth your money. Wait. Patience. There are so many other things you can waste your time with out there, no need to have to whine later about a wrong decision. Books, sports, movies, and many other games from other companies that may be worth a shot. Ubisoft had its history already before SHV, and all that did not take that into account and now whine were just not the brightest if you ask me...
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