SUBSIM: Silent Hunter 5 review (17/03/10)

[Onkel Neal]

"A truly great subsim transcends computer game mechanics to stimulate the imagination the way books like Iron Coffins and U977, and films like Das Boot did. Writing about Silent Hunter 5 is a challenge. There's no way to sugarcoat it, the game has lots of issues and shortcomings, but it does some things well and it's a lot more fun to play it than write about it. One thing it does magnificently is give the player a very realistic sense of being on a U-boat. "

Silent Hunter 5 review (http://www.subsim.com/2010_03/review_sh5_mar2010.php)

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[robbo180265]

Excellent review Neal.:up:

Pretty much sums up the way I feel about SHV

[FIREWALL]

Excellent Review Neal. :salute:

[GoldenRivet]

Well done.

fair.

I would say it represents the opinion of most players, it certainly reflects mine pretty much 100%

[Dowly]

Good one, Neal. :salute:

[pcelt]

On the whole a very fair and balanced review of the major strengths and shortcomings of SH5.
But I do feel that the misery and frustration of some of the effects of the DRM are underplayed. Having on many occasions to wait for long periods to gain access yo your game is one thing but when like me you also find that ,through no fault of your own UBI server has lost or is unable to d/l your last group of saves (in my case ten) then I think frustration and anger are reaonable responses. This game is totally dependent on navigating a net of campaigns (excellent concept) but is consequently totally reliant on dependable and retrievable saving. Otherwise consistent progress is problematic and requires repeating a series of activities already accomplished. And of course such a loss could always happen again.
The success of this game and its enjoyment is really jeapardised if game saves cannot be fully guaranteed for all players.

[robbo180265]

On the whole a very fair and balanced review of the major strengths and shortcomings of SH5.
But I do feel that the misery and frustration of some of the effects of the DRM are underplayed. Having on many occasions to wait for long periods to gain access yo your game is one thing but when like me you also find that ,through no fault of your own UBI server has lost or is unable to d/l your last group of saves (in my case ten) then I think frustration and anger are reaonable responses. This game is totally dependent on navigating a net of campaigns (excellent concept) but is consequently totally reliant on dependable and retrievable saving. Otherwise consistent progress is problematic and requires repeating a series of activities already accomplished. And of course such a loss could always happen again.
The success of this game and its enjoyment is really jeapardised if game saves cannot be fully guaranteed for all players.


I've disabled online saves - you do that by clicking on the little cog icon which is on the top right of the game launcher. Never had a problem with any of my save games since doing that.

[jwilliams]

A fair and just review... In my opinion a little generous on the score. I would have given it 65%.

But with the right patches and mods, has the potential to be 90+. So lets hope the surport from Ubisoft and Modders is good.

Thanks for the review. :salute:

[alexradu89]

Nice job Neal, but you were too forgiving with them... :arrgh!:

[JScones]

Thanks Neal. Admittedly much more critical than I expected.

The game manual is no longer printed...
This must be a region thing. Unless Ubisoft here changed their mind in the last few days before "official" release ;), Aussie copies come with a printed manual.

[BigBANGtheory]

Nicely done, thanks for that.

I will follow your advice on waiting to see how Ubisoft support SH5 before buying it.

Do you intend to review the patches too?

[Morpheus]

Very nice reading ...

br morph

[SodyM]

Great work Neal, this is professional und fair preview.

[Westbroek]

Nailed it. Good assessment.

[cherbert]

Thanks Neal. Admittedly much more critical than I expected.


This must be a region thing. Unless Ubisoft here changed their mind in the last few days before "official" release ;), Aussie copies come with a printed manual.

So does the UK version.

[Phantom453]

Thank you for the review Neal. Well written and a good read.

I thought your review was accurate, balanced and quite comprehensive. I particularly liked the points you made about the unfinished nature of the release and the extremely poor documentation (I still can’t bring myself to use the word “manual” in this case) and poor tutorial system. Obviously my pet hates at the moment.

Given your written assessment was spot on (IMHO), I too think your scores were a tad too high is some areas. Most of all though, I think you largely captured the concerns, disappointments, hopes and desires the Subsim community (still?) has for this game. :up:

[Sharkfin]

Thank You Neal for the excellent review. Will do exactly like You proposed:
wait a few more weeks for patches. And only if those patches fix the game, I will consider buying Silent Hunter 5. :up:

[Snake Man]

Excellent review, very nice read. I was surprised of the honesty of the review (meaning quite negative yet truthful).

[vigilante]

hehe, when I've said a few month ago that SH5 it will be an unfinished game, made in great hurry and incomplete, a few board leaders were very intrigued: "how can you say that". Now they faced the reality genetelman.
Thank you Neil for a impartial review and the courage to put in black on white: this is an unfinished game, do not buy it now.

[Drifter]

The superb graphics never wear off, but once you put some hours into the game, a subsim requires solid gameplay and realistic AI to sustain your interest.

Well said. Thanks for the honest, balanced review.

[SubV]

Thank you for the honest, objective review, Neal!

I still think the SH5 has more potential, than SH3 & SH4 put together.

Let's hope they'll remove the OSP at some moment.

[Uber Gruber]

Its a good review Neal, well written and fair. SH5 definately has potential, it's just a shame UBI seems so intent on sinking their own ships.

[coronas]

Good and honest review.
Thanks, Neal!
:salute:

[Laffertytig]

fantastic review as always neal, that was a really good read.:up:

im defo gonna hold the trigger on SH5 for a few more months though, just as i did with SH4. im sure if this game gets good support from ubi then it will be a sure fire purchase for me and probably many others as well.

in the meantime im just havin way to much fun with napolean total war:)

[ReallyDedPoet]

Nicely done Neal, balanced and fair :yep:

[RSColonel_131st]

On the whole a very fair and balanced review of the major strengths and shortcomings of SH5.
But I do feel that the misery and frustration of some of the effects of the DRM are underplayed. Having on many occasions to wait for long periods to gain access yo your game is one thing but when like me you also find that ,through no fault of your own UBI server has lost or is unable to d/l your last group of saves (in my case ten) then I think frustration and anger are reaonable responses.

I applaud Neal on doing a professional review of the game content and simulation level, but to not even mention that many people on his very own forum couldn't access the game for extended lenghts of time on multiple days and weekends - I don't know what he's hoping to gain from UBI by washing over these problems, but it's certainly neither professional, nor accurate nor objective. Besides, the hope (he mentiones in the article) that UBI will remove the CP later has been already clearly disproved by UBI Spokespeople saying the system will stay in all titles forever.

If the biggest negative of a game is the copy protection used, and he glosses over it, even tries to give some missinformed hope that it will go away then he hasn't done a full review of the game.

[The General]

Great review Neal, thanks :up:

I will say that if a game is really well designed and has good tutorials, then the need for a manual is reduced. Clearly the Devs didn't have time/manpower to work on the manual (or the tutorials for that matter), I'd rather they spent their time working on finishing the game anyway. Like the box art, the manual is one of the last things to worry about.

[flakmonkey]

Great review, found a typo though:D

"They did this for StarForce in SH3, and with the v1.5 patch in SH5. They probably have a plan for this in SH5, but are reluctant to reveal it at this point."

Im guessing you meant sh4.

+Didnt you get a printed manual neal?? I aggree its a rubbish manual but i still got the printed one witht the standard version of the game.

[MLF]

An excellent review, Neal, that tells it as it is - straight and to the point. Thank you. I will take the advice in your summary.

Regards

MLF

[sharkbit]

Excellent review. :up:
Seems very balanced. I'm still holding out hope that one day I can still purchase this title.

:)

[mookiemookie]

Surprised you haven't been called a DRM fanboy for not calling for a boycott and firebombing of the offices of Ubisoft.

EDIT: Oh wait, just a few posts up - you pretty much have been! I knew the zealots wouldn't let me down.

Good review. I'd say you summed it all up nicely.

[RSColonel_131st]

Well, a Boycott and Firebombing of the Offices might be a tad extreme, but failing to mention the recurring problems caused on UBI's side clearly shows that Neal has taken a stance on this issue, and it's not on the side of the customers who can't play the game they paid for.

I mean, if the game refused to load or shut itself down randomly due to other "normal" technical bugs, it certainly would be mentioned in the review as a lack of stability, not? So why does UBI get a pass for technical problems caused by DRM?

[The General]

Well, a Boycott and Firebombing of the Offices might be a tad extreme, but failing to mention the recurring problems caused on UBI's side clearly shows that Neal has taken a stance on this issue, and it's not on the side of the customers who can't play the game they paid for.

I mean, if the game refused to load or shut itself down randomly due to other "normal" technical bugs, it certainly would be mentioned in the review as a lack of stability, not? So why does UBI get a pass for technical problems caused by DRM?The reoccuring problem with DRM you mention is so rare as to be a non-issue. The problems inherent with the game are of much greater importance and Neal has wisely chosen to focus upon them.

[RSColonel_131st]

You did see those numerous users in the forums here who couldn't connect on two consecutive weekends for many hours, and again yesterday? That is "rare" to you? If the TDC doesn't give 100% accurate solutions you can at least still enjoy other parts of the game, though I agree that these problems also need fixing urgently.

[Gato76]

Excellent honest review.Thanks :salute:

[wetgoat]

I believe you covered the pros and cons very well. Excellent review.:up:

[Bilge_Rat]

excellent review Neal.

the game can only improve and should be 90+ in no time..:salute:

[DragonRR1]

Great review. The DRM problem has affected me a few times so far. For me this isn't the end of the world but an annoyance. What disturbs me more than anything else is the lack (as usual) of information regarding patches, I had hoped your review would contain some inside knowledge of this but it doesn't, not even a hint. The game is playable in it's current form but a large patch or smaller patches are needed. It is incredibly frustrating to know that UBI may not be working on a patch and may never produce a patch if the sales aren't good enough.

I totally agree with this comment in your summary:

"Would I recommend buying SH5? No, you should wait at least 6 to 9 weeks to see if Ubisoft supports the game with patches."

I bought it and feel that I should have waited....

[609_Avatar]

Thanks for the review Neal! Even though I don't own the game it has reflected a lot about what I've been able to gauge from it and thus feel about it. I always appreciate your perspective. :salute:

[ReFaN]

exelent review, liked the picture with the different campaigns the most, ahem.

[sharkbit]

You did see those numerous users in the forums here who couldn't connect on two consecutive weekends for many hours, and again yesterday? That is "rare" to you? If the TDC doesn't give 100% accurate solutions you can at least still enjoy other parts of the game, though I agree that these problems also need fixing urgently.

Everybody is aware of the DRM issues. DRM is not only a SHV issue, UBI is doing or going to do it with other releases.

Neal's review is what most people, including myself, want and have been waiting on-a review of the gameplay, campaign, user interface, manual, etc.

:)

[Easy Tiger]

Enjoyable review.

I agree though the DRM issues seem to have been somewhat avoided - they haven't sounded to me like a 'minor annoyance' and certainly haven't been rare.. if the game can't be played for hours on end then that's a critical fault and should be considered.

:salute:

[rededge]

A solid and enlightening review, thanks.

The improved graphics are, at the moment, this game's greatest asset.

I would hate to think what the opinion of someone who has no previous experience of the SH series would be, as Neal said- the bugs and vagueness would leave a very poor first impression. I don't think most gamers readily turn to modifications as their first port of call- they rightly assume patch releases will sort out the problems.

At this moment I reckon SH5 will become the game we were all hoping for- it'll just take some time...:yep:

[floundericiousWA]

As others have said, top notch review which sells the good points and hands out lumps for the bad/meh points.

Well written review, Neal!

[Safe-Keeper]

The review states several times that the game doesn't come with a printed manual. Now, I don't know anything about the US version, but the copy I bought from a Norwegian store features both the manual and a four-page Quick Start (you know, "put DVD in drive and do this and that if autorun is off", etc.) leaflet in Scandinavian and Finnish.

[/URL]
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r292/safe-keeper/P3170034.jpg?t=1268841702 (http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r292/safe-keeper/P3170033.jpg?t=1268841878)
[URL]http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r292/safe-keeper/P3170035.jpg?t=1268841726
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r292/safe-keeper/P3170036.jpg?t=1268841741
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r292/safe-keeper/P3170037.jpg?t=1268841752

[Coldcall]

I agree, very fair review, and I'm really pleased he has suggested people wait a few weeks before buying it to make sure Ubisoft support it with patches.

Nice one!

PS. My Uk retail copy had a very minimal manual about 15 pages in size.

[Ablemaster]

Yeh that about sums it up Neal, agreed on most things said, good and bad points highlighted and seems to be what we are all saying and thinking about SH5, so concur on that, good and informative, thanks.

[Faamecanic]

Good review Neil.... but you left a few things out (that Im sure others have already pointed out)


Morale system is broke. My crew's morale was at 1 dot the minute I left Keil Harbor on my first patrol.
TDC is broke. If you use any ability that increases your torp speed or warhead effectivness, the TDC does not take this into account and your torps MISS their targets.
Rudder control is 1 deg at a time or 35 deg with automtic Amazing/ludicrous/Insane/Holy S*&t speed (what ever ubi named it) ahead.
Rediculous mission requirements (sink 150,000 tons by June 1940...really? in 8 months?)
Germany had Sonar in 1939?
Germnay had Radar in 1939?
American Liberty Cargo ships in 1939?
Only half the war is available to play.
Dont get me wrong... I think the review is spot on. There is so much promise with this SH release. But at the same time this is the most incomplete release to date. As if Ubi fully expects modders to finish the sim for them. :nope: to Ubi and :up: to the review.

[Faamecanic]

The reoccuring problem with DRM you mention is so rare as to be a non-issue. The problems inherent with the game are of much greater importance and Neal has wisely chosen to focus upon them.

O-rly?

And the fact that I could not play the game I bought for the last two weekends is not a problem?? :nope: :down:

Had no problem playing my MMOs though....so its not my internet connection.

[janh]

Good job, I enjoyed the reading. And fairly unemotional, too. I wouldn't even say it was too long, on the contrary: SHV does have a quite a bit of content, even if it may be less than SHIII has, so only a long review can do that justice.

I only hope both Ubisoft and Ubisoft Romania pick up on all the comments made in the review and on subsim and start bringing back all the stuff missing from SHIII. And that they do at least announce a strategy with the OSP. Future will tell whether at least this time they can see that sales numbers are at least as much governed by quality and service as they can be screwed by piracy.

[Noren]

That must be the worlds longest review!

Nice one, a bit to high a score for my liking but that is a matter of taste.

[Jotte]

An excellent read. I found it very informative. You did not take cheap shots while still expressing your concerns. Well done.:salute:

[subsimlee]

I particularly agree with your final assessment..........don't buy it until it's fixed . ( I returned my copy for a full refund and will re-buy it when and if...)

[Weather-guesser]

Pretty much what I expected from Neal. Fair and honest review :yeah:

[Turbografx]

A fair and just review... In my opinion a little generous on the score. I would have given it 65%.

But with the right patches and mods, has the potential to be 90+. So lets hope the surport from Ubisoft and Modders is good.

Thanks for the review. :salute:


Agreed, too generous with the score. 60% is about right. 18/20 for "Realism" is pretty laughable.

[BH]

Good review. :up:

[Letum]

A well written review.
Generous, perhaps, but that is to be expected and it wasn't unfair.

Than manual was news to me.

ed: I am very surprised it got a better rating than AOTD!

[Safe-Keeper]

I have a feeling it got a rating for potential as much as actual gameplay. There's a lot of realism in SH5 if you just look beyond the arcade/RPG features, and silliness like manning the deck gun during a hurricane can be patched/modded out. He did balance his high score by pretty much saying you shouldn't buy the game until it's modded/patched.

[gmccabe01]

A nice accurate review and told it like it is.
Well done

[jimimadrid]

Well writen review Neal.

I noticed also that the actually weather is not saved. If you load at the same point you get every time different weather.
Strange.

Or with the words of the tecnical support, this is not a failure - this is a feature.

[LtCmdrMaverick]

I have not bought the game, but I know that I will do one day.

That is the best 15 minutes reading I have had in weeks. It told me everything I wanted to know about the game. I consider this review to have real value as the author gains no advantage from it either way.

Well written..thanks Neal.

Maverick

[CybrSlydr]

That was a great review, Neal.

I kept waiting for Subsim to do the review because I knew it would more reflect the things I want to know than the typical sites like IGN or Gamespot - or even the aggregate Metacritic.

However...

I don't know if it was a case of "not biting the hand that feeds you" or something... But I was surprised and a little disappointed you didn't come off more strongly against their absurd DRM.

And that's all I'll say about that. ;)

Again, great review - thanks for the read. :)

[Onkel Neal]

Thanks all for reading and commenting.

The review states several times that the game doesn't come with a printed manual. Now, I don't know anything about the US version, but the copy I bought from a Norwegian store features both the manual and a four-page Quick Start (you know, "put DVD in drive and do this and that if autorun is off", etc.) leaflet in Scandinavian and Finnish.




My US version did not have a printed manual, only a slip of paper with the product code and a note saying the manual was on the disk. BTW, I removed one of your images, it shows your product code, which you probably do not want the world to see. :shucks:


exelent review, liked the picture with the different campaigns the most, ahem.

Thanks for the campaign image, I did post your credit at the end of the review. :salute:

Good review Neil.... but you left a few things out (that Im sure others have already pointed out)


Morale system is broke. My crew's morale was at 1 dot the minute I left Keil Harbor on my first patrol.
TDC is broke. If you use any ability that increases your torp speed or warhead effectivness, the TDC does not take this into account and your torps MISS their targets.
Rudder control is 1 deg at a time or 35 deg with automtic Amazing/ludicrous/Insane/Holy S*&t speed (what ever ubi named it) ahead.
Rediculous mission requirements (sink 150,000 tons by June 1940...really? in 8 months?)
Germany had Sonar in 1939?
Germnay had Radar in 1939?
American Liberty Cargo ships in 1939?
Only half the war is available to play.
Dont get me wrong... I think the review is spot on. There is so much promise with this SH release. But at the same time this is the most incomplete release to date. As if Ubi fully expects modders to finish the sim for them. :nope: to Ubi and :up: to the review.

Yes, I left out a lot of things. My first draft was almost twice as long, but like I said, it's a review, not a buglist :) But I did mention #1, 3, 4, and 8 in my review, check again. :)


A well written review.
Generous, perhaps, but that is to be expected and it wasn't unfair.

Than manual was news to me.

ed: I am very surprised it got a better rating than AOTD!

Eh? Aces received a 90 from me on the original review (http://www.subsim.com/ssr/commandaces.html). Check the curve, it takes 7 points away for age. I probably should restate that, I no longer think it's practical to curve old scores. :-?

That was a great review, Neal.

I kept waiting for Subsim to do the review because I knew it would more reflect the things I want to know than the typical sites like IGN or Gamespot - or even the aggregate Metacritic.

However...

I don't know if it was a case of "not biting the hand that feeds you" or something... But I was surprised and a little disappointed you didn't come off more strongly against their absurd DRM.

And that's all I'll say about that. ;)

Again, great review - thanks for the read. :)

Thanks, appreciate your thoughts. I had more material about the DRM in my notes, but I decided that it did not add anything to the review of the game. And that's what this is, a review of the game. In my playing experience with SH5, there was only one instance where the Ubi servers were not responding. Other than that, the DRM did not make the sub dive deeper, make the crew smarter, did not affect the AI, etc. If you think I should write an editorial about the DRM, that's another thing. Thanks :yep:

PS: thanks for spotting that typo, flakmonkey :up:

[slikster]

About popping out of time compression to instant death, you can fix that by editing a file in your documents folder, SH5/data/cfg/main.cfg

[TIME COMPRESSION]
; The first value is the default one, the second value is used when 'travel mode' is activated.
; The two values should be separated by a comma.
; If only one value is specified, that value is used for both default and travel mode.
LandProximity=1,8192
CriticalDamage=1,1024
AirEnemyDetected=1,8

I think that's what I changed. When in high time compression, it will drop me to 1x and I have enough time to do something before catastrophe strikes.

[CaptainNemo12]

SH5 has broken new ground with the full boat access and amazing graphics, but it's not the best U-boat sim ever made. That title still belongs to Silent Hunter III.

:rock::rock::rock:

[jdkbph]

Good review, but I really think we should dispense with the number rating system. I know what you're trying to show there, but I think the review itself, broken down along the same lines as the numbers categories and weighted by the print given to that game aspect, speaks for itself.

For instance, as I was reading the body of the review I was totally with you every step of the way. But then at the end I was left wondering how it managed anywhere near a 77/100 score. I interpret that as a rating of nearly 80% to the good on overall game play experience. However, keeping in mind that I agree with just about everything you wrote, I would rate the game play experience - out of the box, no mods - at somewhat less than 50% to the good.

Just goes to show how subjective, and potentially misleading, the interpretation of number scores can be.

JD

[Safe-Keeper]

The time compression insta-death is pretty much my biggest gripe with the game at the moment. I like to plot a course, yank TC up to 1024, and then Alt+Tab to Firefox (I play in windowed mode) to post on forums, watch films, check on my Facebook profile, study or whatever.

I'd very much like it if the crew got better at calling out contacts, and the sound of SH5 was still audible even after you'd Alt-Tab'd out, so that I could get back in and take command.

As it is, I guess I can always tweak the game so that it pauses when an enemy contact is sighted:03:.

[Letum]

Ahh, thanks for clearing that up Neal.



For instance, as I was reading the body of the review I was totally with you every step of the way. But then at the end I was left wondering how it managed anywhere near a 77/100 score. I interpret that as a rating of nearly 80% to the good on overall game play experience. However, keeping in mind that I agree with just about everything you wrote, I would rate the game play experience - out of the box, no mods - at somewhat less than 50% to the good.

Yes, I agree.
I'm not sure how you can not recommend purchase of the game until it is fixed, but still give it a score higher than a game you do recommend purchasing.

[The Enigma]

Thanx for the review Neal.

After reading it, I'm not sure if SH5 (besides the DRM) is my kinda game.
I'm not into chatting with the crew, before they will obey orders.
Also, the price is way to high for what you get (I don't wonna buy it only for the looks).

For the moment, I ill stick to SH3/Sh4 and see what the future will bring.

[L_DOG]

I beleive ill take ur advice Neil and wait for a couple patch's to come out.
Meanwhile ill be playing the U-Boot add-on for SH4 which so far has been interesting.
Thx for the Excellent Review !
Cheers

:salute:

[ndvsky]

Holy Sub Batman, that's a excellent review, good work Neal.

[Safe-Keeper]

My US version did not have a printed manual, only a slip of paper with the product code and a note saying the manual was on the disk. BTW, I removed one of your images, it shows your product code, which you probably do not want the world to see. :shucks:Sigh... was thinking as I took the picture how I needed to remove that in Paint, and how idiotic it'd be if I forgot or didn't think to do it in the first place:rotfl2:.

Now removed from Photobucket, too.

[Safe-Keeper]

Regarding the "stalker AI"...

That's the bug where this lone destroyer will latch onto you and follow you around just out of firing range like an insecure teen girl with a crush on you, then every now and then get all shy about it and try to look innocent by pretending to be very interested in some random patch of sea and then start following you again when she thinks you've forgotten about her? I keep wanting to send a radio message for the Luftwaffe to get her off me. Or her dean. Or her dad.

Major annoyance, but at the same time, it's another one of those problems I like to call "promising bugs" -- think of the potential here. You could have a system where you take damage and request escort from a friendly ship, which will then stick close to you for a while. Or you can send a "Level 13 U-Boot Kaleun LFG" message and have friendly subs form on you -- volia, wolfpack!

Not to mention enemy airplanes or, when someone adds them, MTB's, actually keeping track of you you instead of just buzzing right past you! No more "ah, yes, we see a u-boat here, and she'll be gone by the time you get there but by all means, try to intercept her anyway". No more will you see a plane and think "oh, damn, now I have to set TC back to 1024" -- you'll think, "oh, damnit, now I have to dive and get away from them, or enemy destroyers will hunt me down!".

[Myxale]

I think it was a very good and through and through solid Review.

A bit on the optimistic side IMO, but it was true to the facts most of us Kaleuns encountered in the game!

Although stressing that modders are gonna fix it, was a rather likely joke.:rotfl2:

But we do know what a finished games is like, and we also know that SH5 ain't!

[Faamecanic]

Thanks all for reading and commenting.



My US version did not have a printed manual, only a slip of paper with the product code and a note saying the manual was on the disk. BTW, I removed one of your images, it shows your product code, which you probably do not want the world to see. :shucks:




Thanks for the campaign image, I did post your credit at the end of the review. :salute:



Yes, I left out a lot of things. My first draft was almost twice as long, but like I said, it's a review, not a buglist :) But I did mention #1, 3, 4, and 8 in my review, check again. :)




Eh? Aces received a 90 from me on the original review (http://www.subsim.com/ssr/commandaces.html). Check the curve, it takes 7 points away for age. I probably should restate that, I no longer think it's practical to curve old scores. :-?



Thanks, appreciate your thoughts. I had more material about the DRM in my notes, but I decided that it did not add anything to the review of the game. And that's what this is, a review of the game. In my playing experience with SH5, there was only one instance where the Ubi servers were not responding. Other than that, the DRM did not make the sub dive deeper, make the crew smarter, did not affect the AI, etc. If you think I should write an editorial about the DRM, that's another thing. Thanks :yep:

PS: thanks for spotting that typo, flakmonkey :up:

Neal.... I did see you mentioned these but felt it was only in passing. I do agree that is you would have listed all the MAJOR faults with the sim your review would have been 20 pages long...lol. This is actually a sad state of the game if this is the fact (and it is).

I also meant to say with those items PLUS yours ....I disagree with your 7/10 rating. IF UBI fixes these issues I would give SH5 a 8/10... but as the game stands now (espeically with 2 weekends that I couldnt play the game due to DRM) I give it a 3/10.

I do like your editorial Idea about the DRM....

[ichso]

Very good review, Neal. This is why I read subsim instead of Gamespot (or many others) when it comes to naval games :up:

One could make a list of items that could be expected in a game with Silent Hunter in the title, and adding a few desired aspects myself it would turn out like this:



full boat access
RPG elements
dynamic campaign
remaining time periods of the era
remaining sub types
wolfpacks
believable boat handling
more complex/believable navigation


O.k., so far they focused on adding points 1-3. As you reviewed it, they don't seem to be finished at all. At least points 1 and 2 don't. The crew just standing around should be upgraded with the necessary animations and scripts to control those animations.
RPG elements need to be layed out in a satisfying way, I think it is very easy to just throw in some cheesy cliches - just as they did for now. But that is certainly not the end of the RPG-element, it's rather the beginning.

Points 4,5 I somewhat assume to be worked on in form of an addon. As the dynamic campaign seems to appear all nice any well designed (if I didn't miss anything here) it takes quite a lot of effort to not only introduce the '44-'45 era and more U-boat types, but to also bring it to the same level.

That is what I fear. The game seems to be very unfinished in many aspects. I don't believe we will see any of the last three points on the list any time soon because it takes so much effort to work on the aspects in 1-5.
Especially, now that they _introduced_ points 1 and 2, they now need to _make something out of it_. From all the descriptions it seems that those two aspects are mere stublets for new features and not really fully flegded features themselves.

Points 7 and 8 I added on my behalf. When I play a submarine simulation, I don't go that much for a 'Das Boot'-experience (which is nice), but I would more like to see the actual mechanics of a submarine in full effect, and that includes a more sophisticated approach to navigation - including a non-flat map, needed tools, scripts so that the navigator can deal with this partly. Everything would be better then just zipping around by waypoints with an realtime-100%-true position marker of your sub on the map (well, teleporting wouldn't, but still).

If UBI is really going for 1. an addon and 2. for a game called
'Silent Hunter VI'
then I even more effort would go into updated graphics and such.
So, maybe no wolfpacks again, just the highly needed improvements on the newest features to the series. Or _if_ they would go for wolfpacks, then maybe we would see even more halfbaked features in future versions of the game.

So far, thanks for the insights into the game @all.

Regards, i.

EDIT: One thing I might add is this: the drops-on-the-screen effect looks very nice, but seems often to be very misplaced. I mean if the captain is standing on the brigde (not wearing glasses) where are these drops supposed to be dropping onto ? This effect should really be limited to Binocular- UZO- and Peri-views.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXzJnz4v7DM&feature=related Even inside the boat this effect takes place :haha:

[R1fl3M4n]

SH5 is a very nice game ! i enjoy every minute of it :D

i don`t think that UBISOFT deserves ` all the crap from kids that like to whine about the game.... :)

[Iron Budokan]

Thank you for the review. :salute:

[The Enigma]

i don`t think that UBISOFT deserves ` all the crap from kids that like to whine about the game.... :)


Thank you for the name calling :down:

[ichso]

i don`t think that UBISOFT deserves ` all the crap from kids that like to whine about the game.... :)

It's not that big a deal.
Worse than the little kids whining about the game are the little kids whining about the little kids whining about the game, anyway :O:

[Faamecanic]

SH5 is a very nice game ! i enjoy every minute of it :D

i don`t think that UBISOFT deserves ` all the crap from kids that like to whine about the game.... :)

Considering Im turning 40 next month, and havent been able to play SH5 either weekend I have been off.... I consider you name calling to be childish :down:

Also add the fact that the review was fairly negative and that even Neil suggested NOT BUYING until patched, and that A LOT of veteran subsim members (myself included I think) who have supported the devs from SH3 to present are voicing great disatisfaction this time around.

[Onkel Neal]

Where are you located? I'm in Houston, I have been playing SH5 3~6 hours a day for three weeks, with only one period of about 4 hours where the game could not connect. Maybe this is a localized problem?

[McBeck]

Great review rommie :)

Your most comprehensive I have read so far. I really got the feeling that you had played the game alot to com to your conclusions.

[Barso]

Fantastic review Neal.
I hope that the devs do support it with patches and an expansion few years from now.
But as with most things nowadays, it all comes down to the money.
If they don't support it it will be the last ubisoft game I ever buy.
With the right care and attention it truly could be one amazing game and one that will stay on my HDD for a long time.
The balls in your court ubisoft.
Has anyone heard if they are working on a patch?

[PL_Andrev]

A couple years back I was asked what I thought was the next step for subsims, I said, "compelling radio traffic, complex objectives like shadowing convoys, genuine wolfpack activity, more role-playing with the crew, and full boat access".
SH5 does not deliver on any of these metrics, with the exception of opening up the whole U-boat to the player.

100% right...
Neal, this only two sentences are full SH5 review.
Thanks for your great work.
:damn:

[Oscarkeeper]

Thanks for the excellent and honest review.

[Scoochy]

Fantastic and honest review, non-biased and sticks to the facts. If it seems the review has a negative slant to it, I think that’s due to the fact that there are more negatives this time around which by far outweigh the positives.

Sequels, by nature, should take a franchise forward. Capitalizing on what has succeeded, improve what has not, and introduce new creativity and innovation to the overall experience. SH5 gets this right in 2 areas, graphics and free roaming sub interior.

The other items that were added or changed (Crew Management, GUI, and Dynamic Campaign as a few examples) take this franchise back a step, or are not even functional. Some of these are not even new to the series, just changed from previous renditions and should be functional from the start. If there new innovations that do not work properly, I might understand, but to break something that worked fine in previous releases does not advance a product.

Your recognition of Ubi supporting Mods was spot on and I think this is the best decision they have made in the franchise. They understand the importance of being Mod friendly as it helps them in correcting issues, as well as extends the life and marketability of the product. There are people out there, me being one, that would not have touched this iteration if it weren’t for the fact that modders could come in and correct some issues and ad new content.

I think Ubi realizes that they can fund the core product and get 80 percent of it complete, and let the modding community make up the difference. This saves Ubi some cash which can be invested in other parts of the software (Graphics Engine, DRM J) and lets the modding community do the research and contribute its expertise. The expense to software developers and publishers would grow exponentially if it were not for the modding community. I for one do not see this as doing their work for them, more as the opportunity to shape a product and contribute towards that product.

*

Enough rambling. Great Review.

*

[Stryck_9]

Thanks for this review Neal, I am one of those on the fence , I would like to add this to my collection of games but the current shortcomings have kept me from doing so. After reading your review I have decided to try to hold off on this game despite all the work done by the modding community until UBI has patched it up a bit. I will continue to read these forums and follow the saga of SH5

[Konovalov]

Firstly I have been waiting for this review for a while. Quite frankly I wasn't going to read a review from some crummy gaming site that wouldn't know what a subsim was. So a big thanks to Neal for a proper comprehensive review and not some 5 second skim of the surface. :up:

Neals conclusion sums it up for me. I'm afraid that if Ubisoft don't provide some serious after release support for this title in the form of patches in what appears a rush to release 3/4 finished sim then I'm a no go on this and I will go back to SHIII. Sure it might not have the sexy eye candy of SHV but for me I could live with that.

SHV could be such a great sim. It appears to have so much potential but only time will tell if Ubisoft pull their finger out and turn things around for the better. I'm holding off laying down my cash this time.

[DedEye]

Sums up my experience really well.

She's a bit of a mixed bag; there's some great stuff here but a lot of not-so-great too.

[TarJak]

Neal, Thanks very much for your open and honest opinion. Reading your review makes my decision not to buy this game even more justfied than simply not wanting to have the OSP yoke of oppression around the games neck.

It will be a bargain bin purchase in the future for me. Hope it won't take too long for the purchase to be justifiable.

[Tarnsman]

Great review.
I actually had the game in my hands today and sadly decided to wait. Not because of its bugs and shortcommings not even the DRM ( I have a constant stable DSL line). But most of all due to the Ubi server problems. It was really a stupid idea and I bet a bunch of people in the boardroom thought so too, but didnt say anything. It smacks of a "corporate decision".

Also, did Corporate think nobody whould notice that the game was buggy as soon as they tried to play it? Did they really earn the profits they expected by making this deadline? I doubt it.

On Amazon SH5 is getting one star reviews. Damn near everybody reads user revews these days. SH4 and SH3 4 stars on Amazon.
On subsim Sh3 got a 100% on its initial review.
Nuff said.

[Safe-Keeper]

Except from the fact that most of "Corporate America" consists of small businesses barely keeping their heads above the water, I agree with you. Then again, I've got next to no knowledge of economics, and based on previous threads on these forums, I've come to realize that sometimes you just have to release games this way.

[neilbyrne]

Thanks for the terrific review. Based on UbiSoft's previous track record of premature release and then multiple patches, I'll wait a while before I purchase until the forum says it's up to speed.

[CaptainHaplo]

Neal,

Having spent alot less time with the game than you, I have to say your review was fair and honest. Well done.

[thorn69]

I think he was way too easy on them honestly. A "76" is too high a rating IMHO! I'd be more inclined to give them a "60". The game is still a failure at the present time for most people and needs some critical patches to address significant issues. I feel that the subsim review is giving UBI the benefit of the doubt that these issues will be addressed - eventually. But until it's done, the game is still a broken mess.

[klh]

Neal, at the risk of being repetitive, thanks for the review. I was considering buying a new PC to run SH5, but I was wondering if I would be disappointed. For now I think I'll stick with my old PC and SH3. If the patches come, however, I'm in.

[Sabre]

Good review! Thank you for that :) (ex 6th flotilla Hundius here)

[edjcox]

I've bought every one of them up till now.

I like to play offline and on the road for relaxation and diversion.

There scheme doesn't allow this as I can't get internet in my cab on the side of the interstate.. Well IO can in some places but not many...

I like what I hear but again its a dumbed down game lsoing not building on it's predecesors. I don't want to have to start all over agin, I want to build on my exisiting skill set and discover new things in a game.

Your review is fair. Your critigue points a little generous.

Do they really expect the mod community to mod in new subs, and overall controls that they should have provided.

Whats with the false colors. We all know the NAZI flags especially what was painted on the bow and stern of the Bismark... I undertand the need in some countries where it is outlawed still.

I think this a major slip back and will wait to buy downstream. UBI my shares of your stock are sold the minute it regains my basis cost... Might be along time though...

:-?

[Der Teddy Bar]

I have often been critical of Subsim reviews which I see as overly positive based on the potential and far too reserved in their criticism of the bugs, game play issues and lack of addressing issues from one version to another.

I have felt that reviews that follow this formula contribute to a lack of correction for major design issues i.e. the Tiger Tank u-boat, ship sinking model and limited the addressing of many other issues and slowed forward motion because the Ubi execs see SH3 scores 100% and of course that means nothing needs to be done as this game is perfect, uhm I think not. Even with the GWX/NYGM mods it is still only 85%.

That said I read the Subsim SH5 review and I am very impressed with the frankness and the lack of sugar coated potential taking front of stage. I can only comment on the out of 10 from reading the forums, while I feel the total score is probably on the mark I think the realism definitely is well off the mark and there are a couple of questions around the Historical Accuracy & Game play scores.

Great review :salute:

[alexoscar]

That said I read the Subsim SH5 review and I am very impressed with the frankness and the lack of sugar coated potential taking front of stage.

(...)

Great review :salute:

I agree.

[CCIP]

Definitely one of the finest pieces when it comes to sim reviews. Thanks for telling it like it is Neal - I can subscribe to everything said and I'm really glad that you have focused on the game and its real highs and lows, making neither too small nor too big a deal of the DRM.

I would only disagree with the ratings a bit - personally, if I were rating it, my ratings would be closer to...

Realism - 14/20
(there are still many things amiss in this regard, although there are some steps forward. It's hard to give it a high mark especially when you consider some stuff like the rather faulty damage model and the "special abilities" which can make a Type VII U-boat go a whole 8 knots faster than it ever could historically...)

Historical Accuracy - 7/10
(A number of things hurt this one as well, in particular the unrealistic campaign/tonnage goals and lack of grid references etc. there is some nice context for events however, and the campaign is far better fleshed-out than in any game previous)

Graphics - 9/10
(It's far and above anything we've seen before - definitely a great-looking game. However there are still some spots that are problematic. Explosions are one thing to not quite like - but I think even the wooden crew-men and their clipping problems that are mentioned in the review warrant less than full marks here)

Sound/Music - 8/10
(In total agreement with Neal)

Gameplay - 14/20
(It would be far better if some things weren't outright broken right now. I think some of the faults in damage modeling, AI and the rather ludicrous campaign goals currently take away from the suspense/intensity of it a bit)

Repeat Play - 9/10
(In total agreement with Neal - but most of it is future potential rather than what is currently there)

Stability/Bugs - 5/10
(This is not a 1/10 game in this regard. It's remarkably stable and all in all, while bugs are rife, there are none right now that are game-killing, other than the infamous morale bug perhaps)

Multiplay - 4/5
(I don't think it deserves full marks here because while it delivers on everything that's been out before, it just doesn't add anything that hasn't already been seen previously. It's still a bit of an afterthought and has limited longevity.)

Mission editor (and modding tools) - 4/5
(The devs have provided us with a hereto-unprecedented set of modding tools for this game, which is much appreciated. Unfortunately these tools are not-quite-complete and largely undocumented.)

BONUS: - 5 Released too soon, unfinished, poor tutorial, manual
(to that I would add)
-6 Problematic and unfair DRM scheme
+4 Enhanced editing features such as scripting bode well for future potential of the game

----------
So, if I were giving it a score based on Neal's criteria, my score would be...
67/100

Hey, close enough :O:

[edit] - eep, fixed my rating. I just realized that my math was off and I was rating out of 110 :doh:

[CCIP]

I have felt that reviews that follow this formula contribute to a lack of correction for major design issues i.e. the Tiger Tank u-boat, ship sinking model and limited the addressing of many other issues and slowed forward motion because the Ubi execs see SH3 scores 100% and of course that means nothing needs to be done as this game is perfect, uhm I think not. Even with the GWX/NYGM mods it is still only 85%.

I would have to agree that in that in a more objective scope, SH3 really is far from perfection, and neither is it a complete fulfillment of what it could've been.

On the other hand, in the context of subsims, you have to admit SH3 was a revolutionary, genre-saving and genre-advancing game. 5 years later, I think Neal's assessment that it's the "best subsim ever" definitely rings true. Measured against a dream simulation that would be completely finished and not require work-arounds to have all the features it needs, I'd say it's an 85. Measured against the high bar we've seen so far - well, it IS the benchmark, and it was the benchmark at the time it was released. I don't think we've seen better, and I can tell it will be a while before we do see better. In that sense I don't think the high review was completely unfair.

[Onkel Neal]

I have often been critical of Subsim reviews which I see as overly positive based on the potential and far too reserved in their criticism of the bugs, game play issues and lack of addressing issues from one version to another.

I have felt that reviews that follow this formula contribute to a lack of correction for major design issues i.e. the Tiger Tank u-boat, ship sinking model and limited the addressing of many other issues and slowed forward motion because the Ubi execs see SH3 scores 100% and of course that means nothing needs to be done as this game is perfect, uhm I think not. Even with the GWX/NYGM mods it is still only 85%.

That said I read the Subsim SH5 review and I am very impressed with the frankness and the lack of sugar coated potential taking front of stage. I can only comment on the out of 10 from reading the forums, while I feel the total score is probably on the mark I think the realism definitely is well off the mark and there are a couple of questions around the Historical Accuracy & Game play scores.

Great review :salute:

Thanks for that. Yes, it's widely known that I am more lenient and forgiving than many reviewers and a lot of players. I have to look deep into myself and make sure I am not posting a review based on what I wish the game was, or what other people think, or expect. In the end, I try really hard to shut out everything except what I truly feel about the game. In SH5, I like the game, I enjoy most of the game, and I can work around some of the issues. I also recognize that the game has a lot of issues, a lot of stuff that should have been more polished and functional.

Of course, I disagree with the view that "Ubi execs see SH3 scores 100% and of course that means nothing needs to be done as this game is perfect". That's just an assumption on your part, unless you know more about Ubi's executives than the rest of us. I don't know how they see that, we can guess all day. I could argue that Ubi execs see SH3 scores 100 and they say, "make another game as good as SH3!"

I would have to agree that in that in a more objective scope, SH3 really is far from perfection, and neither is it a complete fulfillment of what it could've been.



You make some good points with your scoring. The 1/10 bugs/stabilty reflects the overall unfinished state of the game, the impressive number of bugs, bonked stuff and missing or incomplete features. The game itself seems pretty stable, but the "online all the time" DRM can be a problem, so that contributed to the very low 1/10 bugs/stabilty score.

Yes, I also agree that the realism score could be lower because of the absurd "special abilities " that make U-boats into Uber-boats. I let that slide because the player can make the call to use the speed dial to limit his max speed to historically real numbers. Not the preferred method, I know.

Of course, everyone realizes that the review number score is very subjective. If I were to rescore it two months from now, I doubt it would get the same exact numbers per category. The number score is just a gauge, it could vary either way 5 points. It's the words that matter the most, and the tone and subtext. SH5 is a good game that was released way too early with a lot of bugs, some questionable design choices, and seriously shoddy tutorial/manual. Even a game like that can be fun as hell.



On the other hand, in the context of subsims, you have to admit SH3 was a revolutionary, genre-saving and genre-advancing game. 5 years later, I think Neal's assessment that it's the "best subsim ever" definitely rings true. Measured against a dream simulation that would be completely finished and not require work-arounds to have all the features it needs, I'd say it's an 85. Measured against the high bar we've seen so far - well, it IS the benchmark, and it was the benchmark at the time it was released. I don't think we've seen better, and I can tell it will be a while before we do see better. In that sense I don't think the high review was completely unfair.


Oh man, exactly! Wow, well said, that's better than I could have said it. :yeah: Silent Hunter III received a 100 rating from me, but no one says it is "perfect". The 100 score does not mean it is flawless. Simply means, as you said, based on the sub games before it, and what I think is reasonable to expect in a great subgame at that point in time, it made a home run, where other subsims made doubles and triples. Like you said, measured against a "dream subsim", it would have been lower. But we understand the "dream subsim" is probably 20 years away. There probably will never be a "dream subsim", actually, because with each step forward in subsim progress, our expectations take three steps. :yep: It wasn't long back when people wanted a WWII subsim with a working TDC. Aces did not have one. We will always want more than a developer can deliver, that's why it's our responsibility to be reasonable with our expectations.

With SH5, I expected full boat access, better RPG interaction with the crew (and not asking about someone's kids or wife unless we were at the wardroom table picking fuzz off the meat), real, intelliegent wolfpacks, and more complex objectives like shadowing a convoy and getting radio messages out, without being chased off and losing the convoy, and without attacking until the orders came from BdU--that would be a helluva game in itself!.

When a dev team puts together a plan for a new title, they spend a lot of time determing how many people, who does what, how much it will cost and how long it will take. If the project is approved by the company, then off they go. Unfortunately, the best laid plans ... with software, you can never be 100% and like Alex, SH5 producer said, sometimes what you think will be hard, is harder, very much so. Game development can be like playing a game of Solitaire, there are times when things just don't work out 100%--you get stuck and run out of time. I understand that, which is why I do not fly off the handle and freak out. I also understand, if the game sells well, the company will try to support it, and approve another title:

Remember this: If SH2 had not sold well, there would have never been an SH3.

[CCIP]

As far as the SH series, I think it'd be easy to agree that...

SH1 - the original game; classic by default and a good game in its own right, in its own time. I'd call it an 8/10 game, in the bigger scope of things.

SH2 - the wayward sequel. Introduced many good ideas but ultimately was neither a successful design nor was a finished release. However it kept up the appetite for subsims and spawned a dedicated community around it, who did some remarkable things to it. I'd call it a 6/10 game.

SH3 - a rough diamond when released, it broke a lot of new ground and within a year or two it was polished and has become the true classic of the series. A 9/10 game, although as a WWII sub simulator it remains unmatched.

SH4 - a rough-er diamond when released, it broke little new ground and was sadly overlooked by many. However it was a step forward, and has been quietly polished since by the same community. A real joy to play now, it is in many (but not all) ways superior to SH3. An 8/10 game.

SH5 - in some ways it is like SH2 all over again (with faults in design and completeness), although much of SH3/4's good blood remains in it. However if its life cycle does the same for sub sims as SH2, I don't see why we have to be unhappy. I'd say it's fair as a 7/10 game or so.

[urfisch]

thanks a lot neal!!!

:yeah:

[PL_Andrev]

Buhahaha!

This is non-english source of SH5 review (17.03):
Strange, your words Neal...

Negligence can be seen, moreover, at every step. Accompanied by an instruction is one big mistake. Explains nothing and is completely useless. The game also lacks a decent tutorial. At the beginning of the campaign we have a small tutorial, but it covers only a fraction of the knowledge necessary to cope with the game. Worse still, the interface has changed so much that even veterans of the series will have problems with his understanding.

and summary:


Silent Hunter 5 is a classic example of non polished diamond. At release date the game was weak, after a few patches and the first mods is average, and for the year will be just wonderful. (...) I advise everyone else to abstain for the purchase of at least six months.

Source at:
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=pl&ie=UTF-8&sl=pl&tl=en&u=http://www.gry-online.pl/S020.asp%3FID%3D6443%26STR%3D1&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.pl&usg=ALkJrhjyUZMNyRfu_BtpZ5Ll8tUwtHWD3Q

[Onkel Neal]

As far as the SH series, I think it'd be easy to agree that...

SH1 - the original game; classic by default and a good game in its own right, in its own time. I'd call it an 8/10 game, in the bigger scope of things.



To be accurate, SH1 was pretty unifinished, (http://www.subsim.com/silenthunt.html) too. There were several key commands missing from the manual, and the game shipped without several features mentioned in the manual, such as downed pilot rescue and sub vs sub :03:

[CCIP]

To be accurate, SH1 was pretty unifinished, (http://www.subsim.com/silenthunt.html) too. There were several key commands missing from the manual, and the game shipped without several features mentioned in the manual, such as downed pilot rescue and sub vs sub :03:

I have to admit, it's just been a long time and I never got into SH1 myself in any depth. I wouldn't say it was in worse shape than SH4 for example, though.

[Onkel Neal]

Considering Im turning 40 next month, and havent been able to play SH5 either weekend I have been off....


Where are you located? I'm in Houston, I have been playing SH5 3~6 hours a day for three weeks, with only one period of about 4 hours where the game could not connect. Maybe this is a localized problem?


He must be playing!

I wouldn't say it was in worse shape than SH4 for example, though.

Oh, I agree. SH1 was pretty tight. Of course, the scope was mush narrower, the game did much less than SH4, but yeah, I recall it was really trouble free.

[Hitman]

I just finished reading the review.

I think it was a fair one, as usual, but I must say that once I finished reading I expected a much lower points score, given the contents of the previous text :haha: 76 is however OK with me.

It's interesting to note that CAOD rated 83, SH1 84 and SH4 87 :o. IMHO, SH1 at its time was better than SH4 at its own, but it's Neal's house LOL, so OK.

In any case, all games after SH3 have had a more difficult time to win our hearts, because once the 3D era was entered, all further steps have been much smaller. The gap between SH3 and Aces of the Deep is enormous, but the gap between SH5 and SH3 isn't that much.

[RickC Sniper]

It's a fair review Neal, thanks. Calling it unfinished and suggesting that people should wait to buy it is putting the hammer to the nail. Brutally honest.

I do, however, think that your score reflects our tendency to rely on modders today. I know I look at a game differently now after seeing what has been done to SH3 and SH4 by the community. Perhaps you can ignore that aspect, but I can't.

That said, it IS fun to play and it's potential is real, but Ubi needs to step up to the plate and deliver.

Folks, Neal can only review the DRM based on his own experiences with it, not yours.

[Shrimp]

A good review! Thanks a lot for it. Please give UB a Golden Banana for cheating customers...

[Der Teddy Bar]

Of course, I disagree with the view that "Ubi execs see SH3 scores 100% and of course that means nothing needs to be done as this game is perfect". That's just an assumption on your part, unless you know more about Ubi's executives than the rest of us. I don't know how they see that, we can guess all day. It is not an assumption and is based upon my experience with SH3, SH4, the SH4 add-on and from my reading of the forums for SH5.

SH3 broke new ground and was a revolution for the u-boat/submarine genre and I cannot speak highly enough of the underlying product and vision. But, SH3 got a mere 4 patches which did not address most of the major issues before being let go, and let’s be honest it had some big ones like the 8k horizon and the Tiger Tank U-boat© too many more to mention here.

SH4 was a full priced expansion that did not address a lot of underlying issues like the 8K horizon (yes patched out but...) & and the Tiger Tank Submarine© and went on to introduce a lot more as well as breaking some of what worked in SH3 or SH3+mods and was followed by an add-on that really should have been free DLC.

I could argue that Ubi execs see SH3 scores 100 and they say, "make another game as good as SH3!"
And there is the problem; we have been getting games as good as SH3 instead of games that are better. SH3 when it was released for all it ground breaking features and revolutionising of the genre was only a 65% and with GWX or NYGM an 85%. We are still only getting the 65%.

Neither SH4 and the SH4 add-on raised the bar as far as being complete and have taken steps backwards by breaking what worked in SH3 or SH3+mods.

As we saw with SH3, SH4 & the SH4 add-on, more often than not most new items are never complete or working as advertised and more importantly they were never fixed by Ubi. In SH5 this is the case as well, I mean you need to power up and ‘keep the man happy’ just to be able to pre-heat a torpedo, FFS!!

Who is responsible for the above? The Ubi executives.

Firstly we all know how dedicated, passionate and focused the Dev team is, but they can only do what they are allowed to by management and the Ubi executive. The Ubi executive are not at arm’s length and are given demo’s and updates in person in their French HQ all through the development process. They know, or should, what state their product is in when it is released.

Secondly it is the Ubi executives who are ultimately responsible for the end product as they set the policy and procedures that their business operates on.

In relation to SH this has always encompassed an unrealistic development schedule repeatedly discarding the advice from the Dev team. One can only conclude by what is delivered and how it is not supported that the Ubi executive are only interested in milking this franchise till it is bled dry and people like myself stop buying into half backed releases.

I also agree that you were neglectful in not focusing more on the DRM. While you have had a good run it is obvious that many have not, so while you can acknowledge that you have had little to no issues you should have acknowledged that many do have not shared your experience.

If the game crashed every second or third time you would not find this acceptable, but for some reason think this is OK when it is ‘I cannot play every second or third time’ because of the DRM policy forced on the buying public.

It is time that game publishers started to realise they are in a service industry and they now have far more competition for the consumer dollar than ever before and they need to engage the consumer and show them respect. This will in the long run make them more money than the continual useless DRM they force upon those who respect the publishers enough to buy the game and restricting the resale of the game they purchased.

Would you accept the same restrictions on a book? Because I do not see how it is that different.

Now that we have 90% more sales and shyte loads of money because of the, uhm, unbreakable DRM, I would expect that Ubi will now support SH5 by fixing everything that is incomplete or non functional and that when it comes to SH6 they will finally release a FINISHED product for the 1st time this century?

If I was a betting man, I think that has as much chance of happening as my penis enlarger has of changing my nick name from Peewee to Horse :har:

Cheers,

Teddy Bär

[Onkel Neal]

It is not an assumption and is based upon my experience with SH3, SH4, the SH4 add-on and from my reading of the forums for SH5.

Ah, so it is based on your assumptions. I've heard that theory many times, it's still just a theory.

I also agree that you were neglectful in not focusing more on the DRM. While you have had a good run it is obvious that many have not, so while you can acknowledge that you have had little to no issues you should have acknowledged that many do have not shared your experience.

You want me to critique something I haven't seen? I said, "It's a big problem for people who travel or do not have reliable internet."



I'd rather not hear about your penis enlarger. :shifty:

[Snestorm]

Good, unslanted review.

[Gatt]

Well, this nice review comes too late.
The preview told too little about DRM, bugs and game deficiensies.
Now that UBI already did the most part of sales its easier to shoot at the piano player.
Now that I already bought this ridiculous u-boat sim.
Bhà ... :hmmm:

[tater]

I think DTB makes good points.

Face it, the devs are very much in the position of the officers of public companies. Such officers feel their primary role is to increase GROWTH of the company, or more specifically the stock. At a certain point you hit a wall—how can a coffee shop sell more than X cups per capita, per day, lol? Add food! Then when everyone is eating and drinking, then how do they grow? Sell toilet access?

The devs are in a similar position with new releases in the same "family."

The execs want to see something NEW. Old bugs? Who cares, didn't stop sales before, and they can have someone in the team dribble out a patch or two while they work on the next, unfinished game with NEW stuff that is obvious.

OSes have the same thing. A new Windows has to LOOK DIFFERENT. Never mind that they don't fix old bugs that are deep under the hood—in order to score a sale it has to add NEW FEATURES, even as they add new bugs.

A couple years ago I was doing some remodeling downstairs. At the same time, I needed to do the roof. Turned out that the roof needed a total replacement—along with my HVAC which is up there. I ended up spending more on the roof than my downstairs Library-media room/guest bedroom/bathroom (total maybe 800 ft^2). More on the roof, and guess what, it's 100% invisible. HVAC works as before, roof works properly, but no one but me (and now you all ;) ) will ever know. HAD to be done, but if I was a software company, I'd just have done the pretty downstairs remodel and left the roof for the next guy.

A SH4 example. The paid add-on. It added u-boats instead of useful PTO content, and into the bargain it didn't fix any bugs to speak of, or primary errors in the initial game.

[Safe-Keeper]

A couple years back I was asked what I thought was the next step for subsims, I said, "compelling radio traffic, complex objectives like shadowing convoys, genuine wolfpack activity, more role-playing with the crew, and full boat access".
SH5 does not deliver on any of these metrics, with the exception of opening up the whole U-boat to the player.
You know, thinking about it, I agree wholeheartedly. The radio silence in SHIII, and now again in SH5, is disheartening.

At least have AI "chatter" that reflected game events. When I spot a convoy and the AI responds by sending friendly bombers over, it'd be nice to get a message like "four bombers dispatched to engage, estimated time to arrival 20 minutes". It doesn't even have to be dynamic, like "shadow convoy and send new radio report in 15 minutes", just updates from the AI when stuff happened. As it is, I just send off reports and hope that there's help coming. Not that I really should, because I don't think BdU rewards you for neither reports nor kills made by friendlies as a result of those reports. At least it didn't in SHIII. It's just "keep doing what you're doing and shaddap for two hours kthxbai".

I know some people hate it when I bring up Falcon 4 AF, but think of how the radio traffic enriches that game. You don't even need to see the fighting, it's enough to hear a constant stream of "Wolf 1, engage Mig 29s, bullseye 129, 12 miles", "mayday, mayday, airman down, airman down, bullseye 149, 20 miles", "set up RESCAP ", "Claw 1-2, declaring an emergency", "Tomcat 4, engaged defensive" and all the other stuff the AI generates.

If SH5 handled radio like F4AF did (perhaps even with voice lines when appropriate!), I'd be glued to the radio station.

[Onkel Neal]

I know some people hate it when I bring up Falcon 4 AF, but think of how the radio traffic enriches that game. You don't even need to see the fighting, it's enough to hear a constant stream of "Wolf 1, engage Mig 29s, bullseye 129, 12 miles", "mayday, mayday, airman down, airman down, bullseye 149, 20 miles", "set up RESCAP ", "Claw 1-2, declaring an emergency", "Tomcat 4, engaged defensive" and all the other stuff the AI generates.

If SH5 handled radio like F4AF did (perhaps even with voice lines when appropriate!), I'd be glued to the radio station.

I know. Aces of the Deep was the same way. During the Happy Times, you would get periodic messages from other U-boats to BdU, totaling their scores. Then in 1943, there were more and more

U-189
Attacked by aircraft. Sinking.

[harryt8]

I don't post very often, but I feel I would like to chip in my "two cents worth".
I haven't purchased SH5, and based on the mainly negative forum comments to date will not until the approval ratings improve.

Neal Steven's review is excellent and I would thank him for it, but understandably it is limited in scope, otherwise it would be as he describes, some 20 pages in length. (Maybe his critique could now be broken down into readable sections?).

However, having now read the well written review, I cannot understand how the comments and problems outlined in it relates to the final scoreboard of somewhere in the "70's" out of a possible 100. As one forum correspondent states: "maybe 50 points max". Product unseen and untried by me, forum criticism would tend to suggest this perhaps a more accurate reflection on the current state of play.

The question I would like to pose is: How much bandwidth is DRM "chewing up" per hour online?

In the meantime I'll just keep on with good old SH3, GWX and OLC Gold. It may not have the superb graphics of SH5, but it all works pretty nicely.

Harry

[pocatellodave]

I found Neal's review very well done.I can tell that Neal is an optimist,as he found the quality in items that others seemed to be very negative against.I picked up The game at a Game Stop in Idaho Falls,read all the box information,and after several seconds,I put it back.I will purchase the game after several weeks,as Neal recommends.The one thing I really dislike about Ubisoft,is the fact that they put unfinished games out,then they patch them up,and with the help of the SubSim modders,we players end up with a decent game!The DRM thing doesn't bother me that much,as I play order of War,and it has the Steam cluster thingy.Anyway good job Neal.We all should give Neal a big <S> for all the great work he does for we virtual submariners.
pocatellodave

[BigBANGtheory]

@Neal : Do you intend to update your review with the 'yet to be officially confirmed' Patch v1.2 release?

[Onkel Neal]

I will probably add a status update to the end of the review if a significant patch is released. :salute:

Significant = a patch that fixes significant problems that will improve core gamelay and that cannot be fixed by modding, issues only the dev team can address.

[The General]

From what I understand Neal, that is about to be the case. I look forward to reading your 'Status Update'.

[Onkel Neal]

From what I understand Neal, that is about to be the case. I look forward to reading your 'Status Update'.


Yeah. And if a patch makes the game worse, that's another good reason to provide a status update. Hopefully, that won't be the case :)

[Mercedes]

A pity about this release. I was wanting to buy it when I found out it was under development. I thought the ability to roam in the sub was a good immersion feature. But after finding out that the controls and interface have been compromised somewhat I was starting to feel a little dubious. I wasn't expecting the game to be bug free, I was even expecting there to be some significant areas broken (When has this not been the case?).

Upon learning that you must have an always on connection to play then that immediately counted me out. I work at sea and spend long stretches of time away. Off shift I tend to play single player games to fill in the time. Too bad I can't play this one without a net connection. I was going to get Assassins Creed II as well, but this new DRM policy prevents me from being able to play it. I hardly ever play games when I get home, so it would wind up being a waste of money.

Friends sometimes say just to pirate it, but even though that is easy to do I prefer to support outfits that turn out a good product and ignore those that fail to perform.

I've been really into a game called Arma II made by a little company based in Prague, the Czech Republic. There is a lot of depth and versatility in the game, it is designed to be modded from the start. The companies public side is very small and thus they release games before they are properly finished, but they release patches very frequently and have a public beta patch program that works very well. It took only a relativity short period of time until they managed to tighten the game up to a high standard. Installed with the ACE mod it is a good example of good development ethics and community support. I think it also helps that the General Manager is also the co-owner. They also communicate quite openly with the community. I will gladly support a company like that. Companies like Ubisoft can go do as well as they truly deserve.

[cyllan]

more like 40%, nice review but the score is hugely over scored with all the problems it has and basic design issues, 76 means a good game with a few issues, this is a badly designed game with a lot of game design issues/bugs and DRM


the marks show far too loyalty to the franchise IMHO

[McHub532]

I have ordered SH5 (yesterday evening) but don't have it here yet. I'm hanging on every word (good and bad) here on the forum while I wait for my copy. I've been reading about a week and downloading mods in anticipation for it's arrival. I had to wait for payday to squeeze it into the family budget.

So far the 'bugs' I have been reading about run to about 200 separate issues. Some are small and trivial that will be taken care of in time as the game is polished by modders, some are HUGE issues that almost kept me from buying the game at all.

Since it's release Patch 1.1 came out.

What did it fix?

What critical issues (that modders can not fix) do we hope are fixed in Patch 1.2?

Neal.. you seem to be on the cutting edge of this (with your review).. what major issues do you expect/hope to see in the next Patch?

Historically, how much time separates their patches?

[Onkel Neal]

You should be hearing something about the new patch very soon. And I take patch #2 as a good sign Ubisoft will support the game.

[Winders]

You should be hearing something about the new patch very soon. And I take patch #2 as a good sign Ubisoft will support the game.


Thanks for the update Neal - I went ahead today and bought SHIV and SHV to add to my SHIII....which I admit I only started playing recently despite buying it when it came out. :yeah:

Its quite cool!

Ta

WM
OBD Software

[Rip]

You should be hearing something about the new patch very soon. And I take patch #2 as a good sign Ubisoft will support the game.

Very good news. I would really like to play with the morale working right. I have great hopes that this part of the game can be modded to be awesome.

[shark11]

I sent a Email of to 34 Email address for UBI around the world, two have got back to me saying sorry you do not like the game, maybe a pach later will fix.

[McHub532]

You should be hearing something about the new patch very soon. And I take patch #2 as a good sign Ubisoft will support the game.

The SH5 I ordered last Friday is in the mail "Priority Mail"... I'm hoping to have it in 2 days. :)
I have about 20 mods downloaded already. I just hope my nerves hold out because of the anticipation.

Disclaimer: As much as I detest the DRM and the predictable condition of the 'stock' code.... I begged for a 'walk through' submarine. I am willing to pay the $32 for the game just to walk through the sub alone. :)
This does not mean I won't whine very much if/when the game crashes. Though from what I am reading it doesn't have nearly as many issues as SH4 did when I started playing it Stock. I found this website when SH4 crashed all the time and I hit Google searching for a fix. That was my introduction to mods for the first time ever and the great people here.
At the time I was in Baghdad with a terrible connection and couldn't download TMO but awesome people not only burned copies of mods on a CD and mailed it to me; but they mailed me a Subsim.com calendar also.

You people here on this forum are amazing.

[McHub532]

I have ordered SH5 (yesterday evening) but don't have it here yet. I'm hanging on every word (good and bad) here on the forum while I wait for my copy. I've been reading about a week and downloading mods in anticipation for it's arrival. I had to wait for payday to squeeze it into the family budget.

I am at work right now but USPS.com says (according to the tracking #) SH5 was received at my town post office at 4:02 am this morning. Oh oh.. oh.. man! 3 more hours before I get out of work.

Hmmm... am I starting to feel sick? :rotfl2:

[McHub532]

You should be hearing something about the new patch very soon. And I take patch #2 as a good sign Ubisoft will support the game.

Neal must know people "on the inside"... a day after his post here they release Patch #2.

:)

[JohnMalcolm1970]

I actually forgot this was due out this month. Spotted it for the first time in a Game shop today. I picked it up and debated buying it. It was only £19.99. I remembered how buggy SH games have been on release and put it back.

Reading various reviews has show me that that was perhaps the wisest choice. I refuse to simply support the developers by buying a bug-ridden game that I might be able to play in 6 months or a year.

I will check back here from time to time and see how things are going.

[Rip]

I am at work right now but USPS.com says (according to the tracking #) SH5 was received at my town post office at 4:02 am this morning. Oh oh.. oh.. man! 3 more hours before I get out of work.

Hmmm... am I starting to feel sick? :rotfl2:

You are definitely looking pale. I think you should take the rest of the day off and "rest".

[Safe-Keeper]

I am at work right now but USPS.com says (according to the tracking #) SH5 was received at my town post office at 4:02 am this morning. Oh oh.. oh.. man! 3 more hours before I get out of work.

Hmmm... am I starting to feel sick? :rotfl2:Crank time compression up to 1024, and you'll be there in no time.

[Sailor Steve]

Crank time compression up to 1024, and you'll be there in no time.
NOOOO!!! He'll crash his car before he gets there! It won't tell him the light changed, and it won't drop to 1x until it's too late!

[JustinReg]

Thanks for the review. It has pretty much reinforced my views on buying SH5.

I was going to have to build a new PC to get this to run properly, which I was prepared to do. However I think I will wait and see what happens about patches and what 'super' mods become available before I buy.

I'm sure that in time this will be THE subsim to play, it's just a question of how long until that happens and until then I will continue to play SH3 GWX. The GW crew did such a good job on SH3, I can't wait to see what they do for SH5.

[vonTorpitz]

I'm sure that in time this will be THE subsim to play, it's just a question of how long until that happens and until then I will continue to play SH3 GWX. The GW crew did such a good job on SH3, I can't wait to see what they do for SH5.

:yep:Indeed. Especially considering the fact that they dissolved the SH4 crew in order to devote their efforts to SH5. Cant wait. But I think Ill have to for the foreseeable future.

[gamma7897]

Ok. I :ping:found:ping: a small merchant convoy in shallow water. :hmmm:How do do i know depth under keel:damn:. :arrgh!:Improvised. Sunk it. Now to get back on course:88). How do i tell em that.:damn:
A LOT of missing commands on my end but the game got great potential.:yeah:
If only you could mix Sh5 with Sh3 and make a great soup of it.
Bit too easy on the game Neal. 62/100 i would say

[mookiemookie]

http://www.funnyforumpics.com/forums/Repost/1/Old-MummyHead.jpg

[sirbum69]

LMAO

[stoianm]

LMAO
what means LMAO:06:

[reignofdeath]

what means LMAO:06:

LMAO= Laughing My A** Off :salute:

Subsequently,

ROTFL= Rolling On The Floor Laughing

LOL= Laughing Out Loud

LoL= Lots of Laughing

ROTFLMFAO= Rolling On The Floor Laughing My ********ing A** Off

Annnd cant forget....

ROFLAADDCYITA= Rolling On The Floor Laughing As A Destroyer Depth Charges You Into The Abyss

And so on..

and so on..

:)
I only added the last few to maybe inspire a few to LTAO ;)

[stoianm]

LMAO= Laughing My A** Off :salute:

Subsequently,

ROTFL= Rolling On The Floor Laughing

LOL= Laughing Out Loud

LoL= Lots of Laughing

ROTFLMFAO= Rolling On The Floor Laughing My ********ing A** Off

And so on..

and so on..

:)
I only added the last few to maybe inspire a few to LTAO ;)
tnx:salute:... when you go in a mission... you are still home?:DL

[Guardian00]

Hi, recently I see Das Boot Movie and it's :yeah:
I interested to buy Silent Hunter 5, but all that I read about it say that's very buggy and at end of your review (Mar 17, 2010 by Neal Stevens) you say "Would I recommend buying SH5? No...."


Its time to buy it?

UBI already make his job?

Wait for the $5 dollars promo in the Steam Store?

Thanks

(My first post :ping:)

[kylania]

Necro'd a Necro, nice! :)

It's definitely worth buying, but don't get it from Steam, pay the $9 to get the DVD off Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Silent-Hunter-Battle-Atlantic-Pc/dp/B002PAIPQO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1318448845&sr=8-1) or something. Steam has a lot of problems with regards to modding, and modding is ESSENTIAL.

Many of the bugs that plagued SH5 way back when have been fixed. The modding community has fixed many more and improved and expanded the game into a very playable and enjoyable state.

Ubisoft has basically completely abandoned the product. You do still need to log in online to start the game, but you no longer need to be connected constantly to play it.

[Eduardo_Gomes]

Good review! :yeah:

[jenewman2]

Just one comment: I can't agree that SHIII is the best ever. Nothing has come close to Jane's 688(I), and probably never will since Jane's was told to stop sharing the actual technology.

[Merlin719]

I have generated my own opinions of SH5, and they are quite complex and hard to explain. Thank you very much for taking care of this responsibility. If anyone asks me what my opinion of SH5 is, I shall forward them onto your review.

Top shelf dude!

:yeah: