Church Abuse Scandal in Germany

[OneToughHerring]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/world/europe/13pope.html?ref=world

So the thing might lead up to the pope himself. All these cases of Catholic and also other religious people, male priests etc. molesting young kids. These cases have been appearing steadily over the years, sometimes in bunches and there has been even talk of the church really taking a hit from them. But no, the church just 'churns on' and more cases pop up over the years.

I think there should be some kind of truth commission to solve these cases and fix the church so that these pedophile types aren't allowed to get in touch with kids. I'm afraid there might be some serious systemic problems with the church.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

My theory: gay but devout Catholic males become priests to fight their urges, and this sort of thing is the result.

[Skybird]

A hotly debated argument in current german debate is the theory of somebody just days ago, that celibacy itself is attractive for pedophiles. but I missed the argumentation behind it, I read it was in some TV debate with clerics, if I remember correctly. IMO the problem is not so much latent homosexuality in all those priests, but the supression of sexuality in church morals themselves. It is against human nature, and necessarily must lead to conflicts. And it always will.

It started with one school in Berlin, the Canisius College which is very well-known in Berlin (in my schooldays it was considered an "elite school"). It now covers almost all of Germany, with hundred of cases becoming known. The church, like always, finds soft words, and, like always, covers itself and refuses as far as it can any "foreign" interference by law enforcement authorities and police investigators. They want to deal with it internally (like they did in the past decades). But when the minister of justice recently accused the church of not willing in to full cooperation with the police and dodging justice's standards, she was massively attacked by the church and and and...

Britain. Ireland. North America, now Germany. I'm sure there is plenty of nasty stuff to be discovered in every country where the Catholic church has major representations.

But the church and sexuality - what else do you need to say.

Or as a friend recently put it: "Männer in Weiberröcken - joh mei..."

[Catfish]

Hello,

there has been much discussion in the catholic church recently, whether gay people would be allowed to go to heaven after they die.

I wonder why they discuss this .. :hmmm:

Greetings,
Catfish

[HunterICX]

I wonder why they discuss this .. :hmmm:

because they're a sad and pethatic bunch.

HunterICX

[OneToughHerring]

Don't get me wrong, although there hasn't been many cases like this in the evangelical lutheran church which is the main church of Finland doesn't mean that I don't have a problem with them either. The lutherians (sp?) have a more lax attitude to priests, they can marry etc. It's kind of like 'catholism - lite version'.

There have been similar problems of pedophilia and even incest among the more extreme christian circles in Finland. The biggest problem seems to be that nobody really watches and regulates the christian church and it's actions in the western world and also the entire world. I don't think the christian church has ever really been challenged throughout it's existence.

[NeonSamurai]

My theory: gay but devout Catholic males become priests to fight their urges, and this sort of thing is the result.

Then in theory the same thing should be happening with heterosexual priests. (after all if homosexual males are interested in young boys, then heterosexual males should conversely be interested in young girls).

Homosexuality does not = pedophile, a lot of pedophiles are not even gender specific when it comes to victims. Also these people are predatory in nature and usually assault their victims from positions of trust & power. This would explain why the priesthood along with scout leader, teacher, etc are ideal positions from which a pedophile can find and control new victims, and why they would seek out such positions.

Sexual repression may have something to do with it, but I think the main factor is what I said above.

Anyhow if possible I think the churches should start screening their priesthood for potential pedophiles, similar to how schools try to. The problem though is I do not think there are any definite forms of detection.

[OneToughHerring]

Well written NeonSamurai, I didn't mean to suggest that the homosexuals are somehow to blame. It's very convenient for the church and other conservatively minded who might be in favour of the church to classify these cases as 'gays infiltrating the church'.

I'd say the problem lies with the church targeting young children with it's indoctrination. Sunday schools etc. (not sure what the system is in other countries) try to instill the basic psychology of christian dogmas into the minds of the adolescents, kind of like early brainwashing. Some people send their kids to all kinds of christian schools etc. and make them take part in church stuff.

If the church is allowed to target kids in this manner then stuff like pedophilia will continue.

[Skybird]

Anyhow if possible I think the churches should start screening their priesthood for potential pedophiles, similar to how schools try to. The problem though is I do not think there are any definite forms of detection.

the problem is that the church still tries to avoid full cooperation with law enforcement, and the past years and decades have seen sexually abusive priest being shielded from criticism and the law by sending them to other towns, into other functions - where again they abused children. This has been revealed several times in the German scandals now. The church gives the impression that is doe snot care much as long as the scandal can be successfully hidden from public and official awareness. Keeping silent and saying nothing self-critical - that has been their tactics.

Today, more cases have become known. We count several hundred now, from the late 50s to the 90s. Over 80% of the German bishoprics now are known to be affected, and the small number left that so far is unmentioned is liekly to line up with the statistics sooner or later, the more victims feel encouraged by what is happening now to step forward.

[Safe-Keeper]

So the thing might lead up to the pope himself. All these cases of Catholic and also other religious people, male priests etc. molesting young kids. These cases have been appearing steadily over the years, sometimes in bunches and there has been even talk of the church really taking a hit from them. But no, the church just 'churns on' and more cases pop up over the years. Might? That's like saying Dubya might have had something to do with the war on Iraq.

Penn and Teller did a great smackdown (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e3XXB9LmrI) on the subject. The RCC has been doing everything they could, up to and including changing laws, to cover up for the widespread child abuse within its ranks. Really a great organization, it is:nope:.


there has been much discussion in the catholic church recently, whether gay people would be allowed to go to heaven after they die.

I wonder why they discuss this .. :hmmm:Is this related to the topic somehow?

there has been much discussion in the catholic church recently, whether Catholic priests would be allowed to go to heaven after they die.

there has been much discussion in the catholic church recently, whether men would be allowed to go to heaven after they die.

there has been much discussion in the catholic church recently, whether whites would be allowed to go to heaven after they die.

Seem about as relevant.

I wonder why they discuss this .. :hmmm: because they're a sad and pethatic bunch.Seconded. Don't get me wrong, there are of course many good Catholics, too (oh which at least one of my friends is one)... but that doesn't really change the fact that there's a lot of **** swimming around, too.

[OneToughHerring]

Safe-Keeper,

Well I'm personally 100% sure the pope is somehow involved but I also know of the strength of the christian church to cover up these cases and influence courts in their favour. I'm afraid yet again the real culprits, the higher-ups, will escape justice.

[Catfish]

quoting myself:
" ... there has been much discussion in the catholic church recently, whether gay people would be allowed to go to heaven after they die.

I wonder why they discuss this .. "

This is actually meant as a joke, got it ? :D
:rotfl2:
Oops

Catfish

[Jimbuna]

Paedophiles exist in all walks of life...the church is no exception.

Whoever is convicted of such a crime should be dealt with according to the laws of the land where the offence is committed...NO EXCEPTIONS OR COVER-UPS SHOULD BE TOLERATED.

[Safe-Keeper]

quoting myself:
" ... there has been much discussion in the catholic church recently, whether gay people would be allowed to go to heaven after they die.

I wonder why they discuss this .. "

This is actually meant as a joke, got it ? :D
:rotfl2:
Oops

CatfishAAaaaaaah, I get it now:DL. Sorry for being thick, mate.

[OneToughHerring]

"The leader of the Catholic church in Ireland, Cardinal Sean Brady, has apologised for his role in mishandling the case of a serial child abuser."

A sour note for St. Pat's day. No talk by anyone that there might be something wrong with the church itself in the creation of these cases. Makes perfect sense, why should priests, bishops, etc. badmouth the company they work for?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8572604.stm

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,683582,00.html


Hardly anyone in the inner circle of the Vatican is better informed on Catholic sex scandals than His Holiness the Pope. Joseph Ratzinger was head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, formally known as the Inquisition. Reported cases of abuse automatically landed on his desk.

Actually that is the point.

But what were the actions taken on the basis of this knowledge? Priests got shuttled around, often to commit more abuse of children in their new places, with their superior knowing it.

[antikristuseke]

My opinion on the matter has been said and argued much better by Mr. Fry already.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XpGyHJZ9b0&feature=PlayList&p=3223010C37D395CB&index=0&playnext=1

[Dowly]

My opinion on the matter has been said and argued much better by Mr. Fry already.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XpGyHJZ9b0&feature=PlayList&p=3223010C37D395CB&index=0&playnext=1

Good one! Thanks! :salute:

[Snestorm]

Look at the "harsh" sentence the one dirt bag got.
An 18 month suspended sentence?! That's it?!

He should have been doing many years, as a "guest" of the state.

[Skybird]

My opinion on the matter has been said and argued much better by Mr. Fry already.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XpGyHJZ9b0&feature=PlayList&p=3223010C37D395CB&index=0&playnext=1

Good find!

[Skybird]

Now the Netherlands get drawn into the crime row, too. German media quoted NRC Handelsblad and reported the systematic abuse of blind children in a school for blind kids - partially even in the classroom, because the others obviously could not see what was being done to the victims. The six involved priests are all already dead.

It is the third surch revelation in Holland within just a few days.

http://www.nrc.nl/nieuwsthema/misbruik_kerk/article2506408.ece/Ook_misbruik_op_blindeninternaat?service=Print

http://www.nrc.nl/nieuwsthema/misbruik_kerk/article2506408.ece/Ook_misbruik_op_blindeninternaat

Pedophilia always is a perversion, but in this case it is especially perverse and evil.

As a former clinical psychologist I want to remind you that there is no known "cure" for pedophilia. You can eventually control the situations in which the perpetrator could meet a victim, nevertheless the sexual stimulus, the drive motivating him and controlling him, is beyond reach. This makes suspended court sentences and any positive social prognosis a totally uncomprehensible justice scandal, and it makes mockery of the victims of this kind of crime. This also means that the offender is unavailable for "change by penalty", so even if you subscribe to the opinion of some peoploe that these people are sick (they are) and cannot be punished therefore, nevertheless they must be locked away for sure, I have no doubt. the interest and the protection of the community has uncompromised priority here.

I spoke about such things earlier this month with a friend who still works in the psychological sector, and sometimes at court. He suffers from heavy resignation over seeing how mindlessly and irresponsibly many courts act when suspending penalties or deciding against preventive detention over some oh so socially sensible excuses.

Courts are not too sensitive over the interests of the victims, and too often so. We have plenty of soldiarity and show much interest for the history of the perpetrators. Victims we just leave behind. and much suffering takes place for that reason - silently, and in the hidden, often a life long.

I know why I quite psychology. And having had repeated bad experiences with "justice" myself, I also know why I do not trust the law. Our law system is a perversion in itself.

[OneToughHerring]

My opinion on the matter has been said and argued much better by Mr. Fry already.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XpGyHJZ9b0&feature=PlayList&p=3223010C37D395CB&index=0&playnext=1

Not a bad debate, it's by BBC I think. Reason I wonder who's behind the debate is because these debates are also organised by someone and if it's by the BBC, a British broadcasting company then it's no wonder they should be targeting specifically the Catholic church and not the whole of the Christian faith, if you know what I mean.

You only need to look at the history of the conflict in Ireland to see why the Brits might have a problem with Catholism.

I think you Estonians could probably make an even better debate.

[Reece]

Off with their nuts!!!:03:

[Snestorm]

I know why I quite psychology. And having had repeated bad experiences with "justice" myself, I also know why I do not trust the law. Our law system is a perversion in itself.

Sadly, there is no justice.

[Skybird]

In German:
http://www.heise.de/bin/tp/issue/r4/dl-artikel2.cgi?artikelnr=32295&mode=print

On the frontal collision of the clerus with German laws, regarding sex-related crimes such as child rape. For the church, institutional interests obviously have priority over victims' interests.

[Skybird]

and this, by Christopher Hitchens:
http://www.slate.com/id/2247861/


In 2001, Pope John Paul II placed this department in charge of the investigation of child rape and torture by Catholic priests. In May of that year, Ratzinger issued a confidential letter to every bishop. In it, he reminded them of the extreme gravity of a certain crime. But that crime was the reporting of the rape and torture. The accusations, intoned Ratzinger, were only treatable within the church’s own exclusive jurisdiction. Any sharing of the evidence with legal authorities or the press was utterly forbidden. Charges were to be investigated “in the most secretive way ... restrained by a perpetual silence ... and everyone ... is to observe the strictest secret which is commonly regarded as a secret of the Holy Office … under the penalty of excommunication.”

[CaptainHaplo]

Off with their nuts!!!:03:

What he said! Castration keeps em from re-offending. Its both justice and rehabilitation.

[Snestorm]

What he said! Castration keeps em from re-offending. Its both justice and rehabilitation.

Ja.
Cut the whole thing off, and let them bleed to death.

[NeonSamurai]

Of course you all are ignoring the possibility of false accusation and conviction. Child testimony is unreliable on its own and easily manipulated, physical evidence is not always conclusive or certain. I won't even go into all the problems with so called recovered memories.

Also of course the fact that your typical pedophile can't control the impulses, and it is a psychological disorder.

Wiki article (seems mostly correct though I only skimmed it)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

Here is a series of 3 videos where Oprah interviews 4 convicted pedophiles who are in therapy. It's an interesting and disturbing window into their minds.
Viewer discretion is advised.
http://www.oprah.com/oprahshow/Oprahs-Conversation-with-Child-Molesters

[Stealth Hunter]

Well this certainly is stirring up a lot of controversy the world over. Benedict apparently apologized for the actions of Church priests.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/03/20/pope.letter.abuse.ireland/?hpt=T2

Link to his 18-page letter:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/images/03/20/irlanda.lettera.pdf

[CaptainHaplo]

Oh I don't disagree there needs to be solid proof before such actions are taken. DNA evidence, a confession, etc that results in a conviction would suffice. True - it wouldn't get every one of the weirdos - but it would at least keep a number of them from re-offending.

[Skybird]

The pope did not apologize for hiding and supressing the crimes, for the active protection given to offenders, he did not apologise for sometimes paying hush money to silence victims, and for the church ruling that priests getting knowledge about members of the clerus raping children should hide it from the law enforcement authorities, and should consider it the much more serious crime to make these crimes known to outsiders, the public, the police.

In other words, it is the typical evasion manouver by the church. That letter is worth the toilet paper I clean myself with. It even is not adresssing all victims, but just the Irish, knowing that the scandals are moving closer to the personal being of Ratzinger brother, and the Pope himself (when he was still Cardinal.

It would be a shame if the church once again gets away with this type of manouvering.

False accusations are always a possibility, but it is not the job of the church to decide on their truth, but that of the law enforcement authorities. If I learn about a crime, if I see soembody in need of help, and I do not call the police, not only is it not up to me to decide whether that "crime" is real or not (that must be shown by polcie examination and the state attorney), but eventually i could even be sued for denial of assistance (at least accoridng to German laws), eventually even compliancy.

The clerus must be submitted to these crime-related laws that in a secular society are valid for EVERYBODY - even for the pope himself. The church nowadays is not an equal beside the state's authority, it has no right to be treated as a state within the states. I would even say that the Vatican state must be dismantled. In modern era, this institution is most obsolete, and obviously also very corrupt.

Pat Condell has it absoletyl correct when he says you must not only aim at fighting against Islam - you must aim to disempower EVERY religion's dogma and institutions. Where people dela with their beliefs in a privbate, intimate manner, relgion indeed can (but must not be) spiritual. But where relgion turns into huge institutions and seeks the wide open public stage, it turns into simple, earthly powerpolitics. And the result is a Catholic church that since decades conspirates for hiding crimes committed within it's institutions and by it's representatives. That is a form of organised crime, and we have laws against organisations of organised crime, because we consider them to be illegal, anti-constitutional and their existence unacceptable.

To make that clear: priests raping children is the one problen. But what makes it a crime of all the church is that the church formed a policy of hiding and covering these crimes, with acceptance, knowledge and even intention and by order of it's highest representatives.

[Skybird]

What he said! Castration keeps em from re-offending. Its both justice and rehabilitation.
Is it? whether it is justice or not, may be decided by the victims. rehabilitation it certainly is not.

I think of it as prevention. Which is good enough a purpose for me, if it works as intended.

[Tribesman]

What he said! Castration keeps em from re-offending. Its both justice and rehabilitation.
unfortunatelty it appears that castration alone is not effective when dealing with nonces.

Oh I don't disagree there needs to be solid proof before such actions are taken. DNA evidence, a confession, etc that results in a conviction would suffice.
Slight problem there, forensic evidence and confessions that have resulted in convictions are repeatedly being shown to be bollox and are being overturned.

And having had repeated bad experiences with "justice" myself
Hey Sky are those your protest experiences where you ended up sharing a platform with neo-nazis and then having your views and actions legally judged as the same as those you shared a platform with?