View Full Version : Prob with torpedo solutions (again)
I make this quick: @ longer ranges (4km or so) I tend to miss crapload of torps by the ships bow even if I use the cross the T approach. What I've noticed that if I select 2kts less speed than indicated by map update I get excellent hit ratio, any idea what might be causing that?
P.S. @ same range, would +/- 100 meters error in range be critical, I really suck in math.
Exact range isn't as critical as AOB and speed. Sure the AOB is correct?
Are they zigzaging?
since you have map contacts up you should be able to measure exactly from your bow to their ship right before firing and put that number in.
AOB same draw a line to their stern from your bow, and then out to their bow for the AOB.
Yes I'm drawing the line as you mentioned and no zigzagging.
Although i notice the destroyer screen becoming active as the torps enter the perimeter, maybe the capital ship alters speed or course somewhat, I need to study this more I guess.
Yeah they maybe seeing your bubbles from the torp and reacting. Set depth a little lower and see if it keeps happeneing.
http://www.longam.net/sh4/tip.jpg
Just had to post this, found it in the game files
Thx, now my eyes are bleeding :p
Arclight
03-11-10, 08:32 PM
Using a calculated lead angle and firing the torpedo on 0deg gyro is no longer possible after you get the passive skill for your torpedo man that increases the damage and speed.
Since the torpedoes are actually travelling faster than you think, they all go in front. Nowhere does it say what the actual speed is; even after spending 5 points to max out the skill, G7e is still listed at 28kts.
Had me scratching my head as well when I tried adopting my familiar tactics from SH4. :doh:
Possible that the TDC doesn't take the new speed into the calculation either btw, though that 'TDC off' method with lining up the numbers still gives good accuracy. :hmmm: (always relatively short range though)
karamazovnew
03-11-10, 08:35 PM
Arclight, :rotfl2: :har::haha:
That's the funniest bug I've ever seen in a game :har:
Arclight
03-11-10, 08:38 PM
It's a little silly, isn't it? :haha:
Imho they expected everyone to use the number thingy, rather than doing some actual trigonometry.
Bloody hell that must be it as I got the skill maxed out. This really has been driving me crazy!
Although, the skill says it increases damage and max range? How did you figure it affects speed also?
Arclight
03-11-10, 09:28 PM
You could try posting a request for info in the mod section: there has to be a file which details how much speed, probably in %, get's added by the skill. Say 1 skill point adds 2%, then full skill adds 10%, and the actual speed for a G7e would be 30.8kts.
Maybe one of the modders already came across it or knows where to look. ;)
* dang, you're right no mention of speed. :doh:
Must have seen what I wanted to see. :nope:
I noticed this using pre-heated torpedoes on auto-TDC mode, so no longer use this ability.
I do have points in the range/warhead passive one and haven't had any problems (yet?)
Alright, appreciated for the help, thanks a lot. :)
Did a quick test with torps by drawing a 1km line and a 2km line, time results with game chrono were 37 and 75 seconds. So s=v/t gave 26.3 m/s and 26.6 m/s.
1kt being 0.5144 m/s gave the speed of 51.8 kts so obviously if the TDC don't add the speed bonus you'll have a hard time hitting anything from far...
Seems quite a radical speed, could some one else test this too, I'm too tired atm to think anything anymore :)
Steeltrap
03-11-10, 11:02 PM
Echo, it's 20+ years since I did physics, but I think speed = distance/t, not v/t.
1000m/37s = 27.03m/s
2000m/75s = 26.67m/s
I suspect the speed is constant, the difference being one of rounding. I'm being picky; your calculations are correct. :D
IF the torpedo speed is altering and the TDC does not compensate for it, that's just plain daft.
That aside, I have a few questions:
1. Fast 90
Is it still possible to do 'fast 90' calculations and tie your periscope to it? I always used to work the target base course and come to a course that was between 30 degrees either side of it i.e. an AoB of between 60 and 120. I'd set that in the TDC along with target speed.
After that it was simply a case of lining up the target, set range before firinig, then BOOM.
The advantage of this is you don't NEED to keep estimating AoB for different targets on the same course i.e. a convoy. The German system was designed with this in mind, I think. It made 'rapid' shooting at multiple targets comparitively simple.
2. Zigzag/course changes
As an aside, do convoys 'zigzag', especially when attacked? This really bugged me in SH3 as it is pretty much entirely ahistorical. Convoys did NOT suddenly alter course when attacked, nor did they zigzag. They did alter course if aware of submarines ahead of them from a strategic sense i.e. intel warnings, HFDF intercepts etc. These changes would often occur at the falling of darkness or the coming of dawn.
They did NOT alter course in a tactical sense as they were simply not that well drilled. Keeping station on varying courses with different ships not accustomed to manoeuvring as a fleet was a difficult thing to do, all too likely to break up the convoy's formation and/or result in collisions.
All this is clearly available reference material.
Would appreciate any answers people might have.
Cheers
ShootToThrill
03-12-10, 07:23 AM
I happened upon a 40+ ship convoy with merchants traveling in a 5x8 square with escorts on the edges. Hit the lead merchant closest to my position with two torps and the entire convoy maintained speed and course... even the escorts. (!) No individual zig-zagging within the formation so the quick 90 should still be very effective.
Lou_Peckinpaugh
03-12-10, 07:43 AM
i'm trying to use this manual TDC, but i;m keep missing, i repeat this 100 times..:damn: lone ship 12 knots, im in good position 90 degrees to him and here
right distance, i dont use stedimeter because its showing me some magic numbers.. pause, set up numbers, unpause set AOb, change torp speed..and shoot.. and here
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/7513/shunt520100312122849.th.png (http://img97.imageshack.us/i/shunt520100312122849.png/)
i'm doing something wrong..but dont know what? :cry:
GDFTigerTank
03-12-10, 09:07 AM
The easiest way to figure out where you went wrong - turn on the auto fire.
Then proceed to calculate out the manual solution as you normally do.
Then when they don't line up you should be able to figure out what you did wrong.
If I had to take a guess, it looks to me like either your AOB calculation or your target speed is wrong.
Or if you were using the "Preheat Torpedoes" ability, you should stop because it is broken and will throw any firing solution you generate off when you use it.
Arclight
03-12-10, 09:08 AM
Yep, same problem for me, always goes in front. Same with 0deg gyro set up, using the scope set to calculated lead angle.
Maybe the TDC is using the wrong speed for the torpedoes (still think that, just don't know why). Would those all be G7e, or are you testing with G7a as well? :hmmm:
Lou_Peckinpaugh
03-12-10, 01:44 PM
The easiest way to figure out where you went wrong - turn on the auto fire.
Then proceed to calculate out the manual solution as you normally do.
Then when they don't line up you should be able to figure out what you did wrong.
If I had to take a guess, it looks to me like either your AOB calculation or your target speed is wrong.
Or if you were using the "Preheat Torpedoes" ability, you should stop because it is broken and will throw any firing solution you generate off when you use it.
not using preheat torps option,
but it seems like map update is showing me wrong speed of the target.. :o
14knots for example..and when i decrease it to 12 then i have hit :yeah:
but when it is 12, i have to decrease just 1 knot, to get the hit..
so..i dont know is that the crew/ or just bug?
i can make video if you dont believe me :o
As the original poster says at the top of this thread, the speed shown on the map marker appears to be too high, so reduce it by 1-2 knots for improved accuracy. Either the map information is designed to be approximate and not exact, or there's a big problem with numbers rounding up (e.g. 10.1 knots shows as 11).
Other than that I can't comment since I'm out on patrol with map markers off (though they're still there, just invisible, and with the mouse in the right place you can see still the information tooltips for your targets from the invisible markers :roll: )
i'm trying to use this manual TDC, but i;m keep missing, i repeat this 100 times..:damn: lone ship 12 knots, im in good position 90 degrees to him and here
right distance, i dont use stedimeter because its showing me some magic numbers.. pause, set up numbers, unpause set AOb, change torp speed..and shoot.. and here
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/7513/shunt520100312122849.th.png (http://img97.imageshack.us/i/shunt520100312122849.png/)
i'm doing something wrong..but dont know what? :cry:
Ship Speed setting wrong? Looks like the ship is slower than what you have in the TDC.
Did you upgrade the torpedo loaders abilities? This could also cause them to fire too quickly.
All right gentlemen, back from work and did some more tests.
First I tried the same as yesterday with same results, torp speed is 51.8 kts.
Then, I restarted the campaign and assigned no skillpoints to crew and gave a new shot. Here we go again :)
Now, 2000 meters took 89 seconds to travel so 2000m/89s = 22.5m/s
and that divided by 0.5144m/s = 43.7 knots that being the correct speed!
So I think the problem is just as Arclight suspected, the torp speed IS wrong if you upgrade your crew and it could be judged from the by the bow misses that the TDC does'nt add this to calculations.
Also, I measured a 17 knotter warship with same method, map update gave the speed of 17kts and I measured speed of 17.4 kts so it's close enough.
P.S. @ Lou Peckinpaugh: As it's now pretty evident the torps are runnin' too fast you have to adjust the ships speed to compensate but that's not flawless workaround either, basically the faster the ship, the more you have to decrease its speed and the slower the ship, the less you have to decrease the speed because the "lead" is much lesser with slow ships minimizing the error.
Case closed?
Case closed?
The case will be closed when the devs fix this issue in the next patch.
Yeah, You are absolutely right :)
I had a feeling that the "Pre-Heat" torpedo option would totally fuxxor the manual TDC. The TDC relies on it knowing the speed of your torpedo.
As for missing due to the target speed, dont trust the speed it gives you in the contact's popup. I learned that very quickly.
@ gutted: I already measured the target speed and it appears to be reliable with map updates.
I play with contacts off, so i was speaking more about the single contact reports that show up on the map from time to time. They are usually off by a knot or two.
P.S. @ same range, would +/- 100 meters error in range be critical, I really suck in math.
It depends on two things, the actual range.. and how much the torpedo has to turn.
The more the torpedo turns (.ie gyro angle), the more importanat a correct range becomes. Also, the longer the shot, the more ANY error in speed/range/AOB you enter gets magnified.
For instance:
If the gyro is 0, range does not matter at all.
If the gyro is like 45 degrees, you better have the range spot on.
If the gyro is like 10 degrees, you can have some error in the range and be ok if you are not firing from long ranges.
It's all about understanding the limitations of the system, and working within acceptable tolerances.
So get close (under 2000m), get the speed correct, enter an AOB somewhat accurately (doesnt' have to be exact), and try to shoot at low gyro angles.
Do that, and you minimize any errors in data.
Lou_Peckinpaugh
03-12-10, 04:40 PM
Case closed?
looks like :salute:
good job on this investigation Echo,funny how history repeat itself.. Kriegsmarine had problems with torps and we too :D
Just restarted my career; once again I'm able to use the 0 degree solution from 4km+. Encounterred a small merchant @ 14kts, 4100m, 2 torps, 2 beautiful hits. Better not to spend points in the torpedoman's skills. They are overpower anyways ;)
Arclight
03-12-10, 10:10 PM
Is it possible they extend the range by increasing speed?
The logic being that a torpedo carries a fixed amount of fuel, so the engine runs for a fixed amount of time. Rather than have the engine run longer, they increased the speed. Torpedo travels further, but obviously the trigonometry becomes useless. :hmmm:
@ Arclight: that sounds like an good explanation and easy way out without thinking the consequences by the devs, this needs testing but I'm too wasted atm to even think about it :)
But I'd say yo are right again. they just increased the speed, that's the only logical explanation. Compare the results, 52 knots against 44? All measured and bulletproof. Devs screwed up and this needs a fix.
Sounds like the devs hit the same stone they did back in SH3 with the speed selector switch of the TDC. Then they forgot to let the TDC know about the changed speed if you selected an electric type 2 torpedo after a steam type 1 (and vice versa).
Judging by the numbers mentioned sofar the torpedo moves 20% faster after this skill/ability/upgrade/whatever. The workaround is to reduce the target speed by a 6th of the real target speed. So 9 knots would become 1.5 knots lower, so 7.5 knots. But i gather the interface doesn't allow to set decimal speeds, right?
starbird
03-13-10, 08:05 AM
It does if you type the speed in.
Oh good! Then with a little arritmatic this is easily fixed.
Pandion
03-13-10, 09:28 AM
Is there any way you can edit out the speed increase from the torpedoman's ability :06:
I measured each skill point individually for torpedo damage/range:
0/5 = 44kts 5000 range
1/5 = 44,8 kts 5000 range
2/5 = 46,3kts 5000 range
3/5 = 48.6kts 5000 range
4/5 = 49,8kts 5000 range
5/5 = 51,8 kts 5000 range
So it seems the "buff" goes to wrong address. instead of range, to speed.
P.S. You can't use decimals, the game approximates it to nearest full digit
Steeltrap
03-13-10, 09:50 AM
This is retarded. Shows what a dumbarse idea it was to have an ability that magically uberbuffs your torps. Then they get it wrong in implementation.....
3 stooges anyone?
Arclight
03-13-10, 10:44 AM
So I misread "range" for "speed", and it turns out that's the way it is anyway? :doh:
Well then at least the theory holds true. :lol:
But yeah, little backwards. The mod I'd most like to see is one that removes the 'special' abilities and balances crew abilities so you get (close to) the performance with full bonus.
But then the whole crew management page becomes useless. :-?
You guys are talking about the "Pre-Heat" special ability right?
Not any of the passive ones i hope. Because i already maxed all the skills out, but i never turn on Pre-Heat because i was worried it would fux up the solution. So far i've only been using the steam torpedos though, and pre-Heating those makes no sense. What i really would like to know Is if it is necessary to Pre-Heat the electics to get the listed 28kt speed?
Sorry to say but it's the passive :-?
Nafod81
03-13-10, 11:38 AM
I think the passive abilities mess up the casual aiming solution (er connect the dots too).
I was missing to the bow alot in my previous patrol, and hits were always on the target's bow.
Sorry to say but it's the passive :-?
Whaaaaaaaat???
which one?
No Way! LOL!
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