Historical question

[Safe-Keeper]

Okay, so in the beginning of the singleplayer campaign, you're told that when Germany invaded Poland, Britain and France declared war, and that this was something totally unexpected by German high command. He went on to talk about how the Germans were now in deep **** because the Royal Navy was the mightiest in the world, that German ships were now outnumbered eight to one and trapped in their ports, and so on and so forth.

My question is: is this actually true -- that Germany thought they could invade Poland along with the Soviet Union and get away with it without France and the UK declaring war? I know the fourties were an age of imperialism and that bigger countries seizing smaller countries was commonplace (I hate it when people say they hate Hitler because "he tried to take over the world" for that reason -- it's not as if England hadn't taken over most of the world already), but was Hitler really naive enough to think he could just keep going on swallowing up territory without interference?

[abel29a]

Well it worked in Sudentenland, Austria and Checkoslowakia - the French and British were not fit for a fight in 1939, and the Germans knew this, so it didn't seem that unreasonable a gamble. After all, Hitlers goal was conquest in the East, leaving Britian to govern their Empire in peace.

That being said, any study of historical British policies should have been ample warning. Britain has gotten themselves involved in countless wars on the continent to keep one fraction from becoming to powerfull for hundreds of years.

As for the Kriegsmarine being outnumbered, yes, their Z-plan called for a war in 1943/44 at the earliest - by then they should have had several Bismarck class Battleships and carriers. But trapped in port, hardly - they after all conquered Norway in a huge feat of Naval arms, altough the losses crippled the Kriegsmarie Surface fleets, much as the Luftwaffe was bled too death a few months later.

[CaptBackasswards]

No. Hitler wasn't naive, but he was exceptionally arrogant. He thought that the countries of England and France didn't have the backbone to measure up to the strong military machine Germany had developed. He also thought Russia was a bunch of peasants and that Germany would march all over them. Germany did march over Russia for a little while, but English and American aid, and eventually Russia managed to get their industrial infrastructure working well enough that Russia eventually turned Germany away. Hitler thought America was a bunch of mongrels, and that America wasn't squared away enough to - and never could be squared away enough - to answer the call. Of course, he was wrong. The free world rose to the ocassion, and Hitler's miscalculations eventually did him in.

The combined seapowers of America and the Royal Navy during World War 2 was simply too strong for the Germans to handle once the coordinated effort of the US and Britain went into high gear. A lot is made of Germany's technical achievements during WW2, but the US and British advances in sonar and radar technology during WW2 were awesome.

[Faamecanic]

Chamberlin (the Prime Minister of the UK at the start of Germany's aggression) was more than happy to be a pacifist. The same went for France and Russia. They were all still very tired of War from WWI.

So they chose to make a lot of noise (saber rattling with no real intention of stopping Germany) as Germany invaded surrounding countries.

Heck...even a lot of folks in France (vicy France) wanted to "merge' with Germany. It wasnt until hostilities started between Germany and the UK that the rest of the world started to notice...and even then the majority of the USA did not want to get involved (hence the Leand-Lease act).

[mookiemookie]

Well to provide some background:

Britain had signalled its intentions to end appeasement when on March 31st 1939, Chamberlain had guaranteed aid to Poland. This was followed by a bill to introduce conscription being passed on April 27. Hitler tried to play the victim card by calling out London's "encirclement policy" in a speech to the Reichstag on April 28.

On May 23rd, in a meeting with Wehrmacht commanders and chiefs of staff, Hitler had declared his firm intention to invader Poland for 1) lebensraum and 2) to prevent it from joining an encircling alliance against Germany, having already approved "Case White" (plan for the invasion of Poland) on Apr. 3.

But before this could be put into action, the matter with the Soviets had to be settled. At first, Germany thought that Russia would side with the Western powers. In Spring of '39 Soviet foreign commissar Litvinov had made overtures to Britain and France to form an alliance to check German aggression, but he was rejected. When Litvinov was replaced by Molotov, the Germans took it as a sign that there was, according to the German ambassador to Moscow, "a guarantee that foreign policy will be conducted on the lines laid down by Stalin." On August 20, Hitler sent a telegram to Stalin declaring his intention to invade Poland. Russia would agree to an alliance, only if Germany agreed to the terms laid down in the special secret Protocol of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact that dictated that conquered Poland and eastern Europe would be split into spheres of influence. Germany didn't dally on this, and signed the pact without hesitation as they had already set the date of the Poland invasion at August 26.

Soooo, getting back to the crux of the question - what did Hitler think of Britain and France when making these decisions? He saw their leaders as "mediocre vacillators." Britain was not going to be much aid to Poland as they were going to have their hands full in the far east with Japan, Italy was a check on both Britain and France in the Med. the Luftwaffe had a 3-1 manpower advantage over the RAF, they wouldn't be able to field more than 5 or 6 land divisions - Hitler summed it up by saying "it seems to me impossible that any responsible British statesman dare, under these conditions, accept the risks of open warfare."

As for France, Hitler looked down on both their armaments and manpower and argued that neither Paris nor London would invade through neutral territory. he believed the worst that would happen is that Britain and France would recall their ambassadors and maybe blockade Germany.

Unfortunately, France and Britain didn't see it that way. France reaffirmed their commitment to help Poland, thinking that the combined air forces of France and Britain could carry out bombing raids on Germany. On Aug 25th, England and Poland signed a Mutual Assistance Pact. Hitler was surprised and called off the Aug 26 invasion. He met with the British Ambassador and laid out his case for Danzig and even tried to sweeten the deal by offering Wehrmacht assistance to Britain if needed if they would consent to stay out of the Poland situation. Britain rejected the offer. Hitler plowed on ahead, setting a September 1 deadline. Last minute negotiations between Britain, Poland and Germany were brushed aside. At this point it was too late and the gears were already in motion.

And that's a way too long answer for this, but it gave me a chance to break out Vol 1 of my WW2 encyclopedia. :up:

[Noren]

Long story short:

Hitler did'nt think England and France would back up their alliance with Poland but they did. Hitler had pushed his luck far enough and the allies was finally feed up with him breaking treaties.

But France did'nt invade Germany, as Hitler initially feared. It was known as the phoney war (no-one did anything and in the meantime Poland was captured). Later the full might of Hitlers army fell upon the west in a gigantic pincer-movement that completely made the mighty french line of fortresses a non-issue and...

[Frederf]

When I read that mission brief I laughed for a good few minutes. It seems ridiculous that even if Britain/France declaring war was less than expected that it would shock German high command. Surely they at least had a contingency plan for that.

The best part is that no way would the German military freely admit to a lowly submarine commander that they might be in trouble. The whole conversation has to be taken in the context of a U-boat squadron commander talking to a U-boat captain in 1939... not some hindsight neutral college history textbook.