View Full Version : The facts of life: A heartfelt defense of Ubisoft and DRM
MattDizzle
03-09-10, 01:08 PM
Ok guys i'll make this as simple as i can.
Piracy is having a massive impact on getting PC games funded and green-lit (approved for production), more and more people are gaining acess to always-on broadband and the software required to pirate any game, software or movie they wish. Due to the unique way in which the internet is decentralized and tends to treat censorship or intrusion in any way like a body treats an infection (Contain and replace), i dont see this stopping any time in the future, or at least the next 10 years.
At the same time the costs associated with making a video game have skyrocketed, gamers demand bigger worlds, more accurate animations, gone are the days when it was a 2d bar with buttons and text speech. So the income has simultaneously been cut, while the costs continue to skyrocket.
So, now ubisoft ( lets just say, for example) has 5 options:
1. Stop making niche games, Il2 and Silent hunter are not popular, they are made in europe and sent over here to what i am sure is a pitiful audience, maybe a tenth the size of the latest assasins creed game. They have chosen not to do this. Somewhere deep down they covet that EA money, but have chosen not to do this.
2. Charge $250 for silent hunter 5- 1939-1945 edition. Its simple math people, they need to get more money from less people to even have a hope of staying afloat, or expanding. They have chosen not to do this, kind of. (see 4)
3. Make piracy a pain in the ass. This is the dreaded DRM, if they can delay the first pirate a week before a copy hits bittorrent, thats money in the payroll account. You'd be stupid not to try. In the olden days of 2005 they used invasive and ridiculous software to do this (Starforce), today they use something no more invasive than a steam account. I support the online option 100% and have had no problems with it after more than a week of gameplay. Not a single disconnect or CTD. Releasing a "buggy" game from the box and already having a patch ready to go is also a great method. Offline pirates cant fix their game until they spend yet another week figuring out how the hell to get the patch working. Ubi has done this
4. Copy GabeN: (episodic gaming) Remember how i said they need to make more money from fewer customers? This is simply financially unavoidable, so to make it more realistic to your budget they break a massive ridiculous game into several smaller, but still substantial games. If they keep delivering a quality product than spending 200+ on a game, albiet over a period of a few years and several titles, makes sence. I'll be buying whatever they come out with for SH5 in the future. So far it looks like this is the direction UBI is going in.
PS: Bitching about DRM and every issue like this is a joe everyman vs evil corporate overlord just makes us look like a market not worth pandering to, and they will never bother to make sims anymore at all. They could go all EA and just release Joe Xtreem's Pro ATV 2011. it would sell like a storm and they would bank, but those games are horrible. I cant promise anything but this appears to be something called "Ethics" and "pride" that i've never seen a corporation exhibit before.
Galanti
03-09-10, 01:15 PM
Is that you, Trenken?
AVGWarhawk
03-09-10, 01:20 PM
Watch for the can of worms coming! :o Yep, piracy sucks. We pay. Stealing/shoplifting sucks. We pay extra to cover for those that shoplift. Insurance fraud sucks. Somehow we pay for that. However, not much is said about those issues. Bring up DRM and all of a sudden the fart in the space suit has just been discovered.
I'm ok with DRM. I'm not ok with having to connect every time I play. I should connect once upon installation and verify my CD code. Thats it. And, if I'm forced to connect all the time make sure the servers work all the time. :up:
Stated sometime in the 60s
"We needed to destroy the village to save the village"
Stated by a Ubi suit March 2010
"we needed to kill the franchise to save the franchise"
I am sorry. This DRM was a disaster in the making. It is over the top, and badly implemented. A validation of the game for each session is fine. Having to be online all of the time you are playing.
Stupid. Pure and simple.
I hope the one that came up with this stupid scheme never has a good night's rest again.
Facts of life: A businesses only concern is providing value to the customer. If it fails in that then it fails in everything.
I hope the one that came up with this stupid scheme never has a good night's rest again.
Thinking about maybe putting a horse head in his bed?
MattDizzle
03-09-10, 01:28 PM
I know i really come off as someone with an axe to grind or some kind of employee of ubi, but im not.
My names matt, i work at a florida insurance company (not ubi), and i simply love military simulation PC games, and hope to see them made in the future.
mookiemookie
03-09-10, 01:32 PM
Gabe Newell of Valve destroys your argument in one short interview on piracy, and how DRM only creates more pirates:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87pevh2Q0hg#t=3m30s
The thing is there is already a crack for the DRM, and there is already a work around for the missions not updating when bypassing the DRM.
So the pirates are able to play the game with no problems, and the legal paying customers are stuck trying to play.
Hurting your paying customers by using a protection scheme that does not stop piracy is not the way to do it.
Codemasters had it right with their protection of the original operation flashpoint game.
If you used a crack the game made actually hitting a target impossible by degrading the program over time.
This did not punish the paying customer, and punished the pirates.
This is how it should be. Punishing customers punish the people who pay you money. That is a bad business decision.
ETR3(SS)
03-09-10, 01:35 PM
Is that you, Trenken?:har: I wondered when his name would be brought up again. Seems he's been pretty quiet lately too. :hmmm:
To the OP, Pirates had the game...ahem..."adapted" within 24 hours of release with the 1.1 patch. Say Ubi decides to make a 1.2 patch. That takes time to develop, so the honest gamer has to wait for that patch just like the pirate. I really don't think the pirates out there are going to die if the pirate patch takes another week. In your scenario I fail to see how the pirates lose.
Piracy is having a massive impact on getting PC games funded and green-lit (approved for production) Also if this statement is fact, where's the proof?
I absolutely disagree with you.
Especially niche games in the past have actually shown that they can sell very well without ANY kind of the draconion DRM we now see from Ubisoft. The critically acclaimed Galactic Civilization 2 from Stardock comes to mind, as well as the excellent helicopter sim Black Shark, just to name games I've recently played.
Another approach could certainly be to charge more for detailed simulations. I actually am willing to do that. I've bought Steel Beasts Pro PE which cost 125$. It uses a dongle copy protection which is a bit of a hassle, but to this day it never prevented me from actually playing the game. Unlike SH5...
Also, DRM doesn't automatically need to be implemented in a way that slaps the honest customer in the face. I am more than willing to use one-time online authentication via serial keys or other IMO less intrusive methods. STEAM works fine in that regard. I can play all my STEAM games without being connected to the internet.
And considering the unfinished state SH5 was delivered, Ubisoft would be well advised to invest more into quality control than DRM mechanisms. Maybe they would sell more games if the customer wouldn't feel like paying for beta software... beta software he can't actually play when he wants....
:nope:
Irichanu
03-09-10, 01:35 PM
The real GabeN method is to make good games, with good support.
How many times you haven't been able to play Valve's games because of Valve's servers falling? Their games are always cracked in under 24 hours, and they still don't whine about it. They see selling used games as a problem, and I think most publishers use piracy as a cover to use DRM that blocks that. Not that I have anything against DRM if it works properly and doesn't mess your PC(ie. Starforce).
There are few times that DRM has been successful in stopping piracy, and the most recent is Splinter Cell 3: Chaos Theory that used Starforce 3.0. It was cracked after 422 days. But it also stopped some legimate users from playing and gave bluescreens etc.
MattDizzle
03-09-10, 01:37 PM
As i said there is no real way to prevent piracy, DRM is simply a delaying action, like sending a squad to die to buy a platoon 20 more minutes of quality retreating time. If i had a solution to internet piracy, i wouldnt be wasting my time talking on a forum, i'd be counting my ferrari collection :)
Oh and screw gaben, he games 2 games in 15 years that everyone and their dad buys and they think he's some kind of gaming messiah. He has good ideas but that doesnt mean i agree with all of them. He now keeps his food habit going licencing his engine to smaller, more talented game companies, with the clause that he gets to take credit for it the minute it looks promising and hire the entire development team into his ever-expending valve organization. He didnt make portal, and i dont think he made left for dead either. (could be wrong)
You guys do know that somewhere out there a game developer probibly is losing his house right now because his company couldnt afford to keep him on, right? Or do you guys not care about hypothetical people?
Galanti
03-09-10, 01:37 PM
Facts of life: A businesses only concern is providing value to the customer. If it fails in that then it fails in everything.
FY.
Matt, you have some valid points, but I think it's pretty clear that regardless of whether it's DOS hacking or godless bears, if the customer cannot play the product he/she paid for, then DRM fails.
Personally, I like your #4 option, and I'd have no problem with it.
I think you touched on something when you mentioned your love of military sims, and it struck that perhaps there needs to be a separate business model when it comes to sims. Maybe publishers need to realize that we, as a niche market, perhaps need a niche business model.
Schunken
03-09-10, 01:38 PM
Its not the point that Ubi is fail with SH5, everybody fail everyday with anything....
The point is that thew show NO SIGN of support loyal customers and NO SIGN of apology to loyal customers.
They even denie that they make a mistake by setting up the DRM Servers....
No single german company like BMW, Mercedes or Lufthansa will go down on a simple DDOS Attack....
And when a Software-Developer go down by a DDOS attack....sorry, I must lough my ass off... Its like a sub-captain dives with a open hatch....
Andreas
Irichanu
03-09-10, 01:42 PM
Its not the point that Ubi is fail with SH5, everybody fail everyday with anything....
The point is that thew show NO SIGN of support loyal customers and NO SIGN of apology to loyal customers.
They even denie that they make a mistake by setting up the DRM Servers....
No single german company like BMW, Mercedes or Lufthansa will go down on a simple DDOS Attack....
And when a Software-Developer go down by a DDOS attack....sorry, I must lough my ass off... Its like a sub-captain dives with a open hatch....
Andreas
More like when a sub sinks because its captain didn't know how to use a toilet...
I know i really come off as someone with an axe to grind or some kind of employee of ubi, but im not.
My names matt, i work at a florida insurance company (not ubi), and i simply love military simulation PC games, and hope to see them made in the future.
I respect your point of view matt, but I think you're wasting your time, a lot of people here won't even think about the possibility that they could be wrong.
As you said, it always come down to it:this is a joe everyman vs evil corporate overlord
SteamWake
03-09-10, 01:45 PM
I found the juxtaposition of this thread immediatly below the UBI server issue thread amusing. :haha:
MattDizzle
03-09-10, 01:49 PM
Do you guys just whine and make smartalec comments? How about some empathy? How about some compassion and understanding in tough times? Sometimes in those tough times tough decisions need to be made, these people have responsibilities to their shareholders and employees that they need to fulfill. This isnt UNICEF, they dont make these games to please you. Oh yea, and they warned us in advance, and printed it in big black and white letters on the front of the box, and made a commitment to support this game years into the future (another benefit of episodic releases)
Do you people have any constructive suggestions? Or just complaints about whatever is in front of you.
Irichanu
03-09-10, 01:51 PM
If they have piracy problems even with the new DRM, doesn't that just show that they are doing something wrong? There probably is no good way to counter piracy, but you can increase your profit in other ways. Bugging your paying customers isn't very useful, I can tell you that.
groundhogd
03-09-10, 01:53 PM
3. Make piracy a pain in the ass. This is the dreaded DRM, if they can delay the first pirate a week before a copy hits bittorrent, thats money in the payroll account. You'd be stupid not to try. In the olden days of 2005 they used invasive and ridiculous software to do this (Starforce), today they use something no more invasive than a steam account. I support the online option 100% and have had no problems with it after more than a week of gameplay. Not a single disconnect or CTD. Releasing a "buggy" game from the box and already having a patch ready to go is also a great method. Offline pirates cant fix their game until they spend yet another week figuring out how the hell to get the patch working. Ubi has done this
Two problems: Ubisoft's boneheaded DRM encourages piracy and was cracked before release.
TDK1044
03-09-10, 01:55 PM
I disagree with the OP on so many levels that it's not worth pursuing. Let's just say that I'm not surprised that he works for an insurance company. :)
Indietro
03-09-10, 01:56 PM
Do you guys just whine and make smartass comments? How about some empathy? How about some compassion and understanding in tough times? Sometimes in those tough times tough decisions need to be made, these people have responsibilities to their shareholders and employees that they need to fulfill. This isnt UNICEF, they dont make these games for you.
Emphaty for strangers ? who are you ? Jesus ? So you wanna help UBI and support DRM ? How about you buy a 1000 copy to show your "love" to the crap of tough times ? Ppl has a right to hate DRM but you obviously are having dead braincells if you can come up with this thread after all ppl who bought it experiencing clear problems!
Ok guys i'll make this as simple as i can.
Piracy is having a massive impact on getting PC games funded and green-lit (approved for production)
Same old propaganda peddled by companies that do not want to support the PC but prefer the consoles. Console piracy is also strong, but you rarely see anyone whining about it.
XBOX/PS3/Wii : This is the reason that PC games are not being supported as much, it's a cheap standardised platform that maximises revenue and minimises cost of development.
The move to multiplayer gaming also means that games that are initially pirated end up being bought by the pirates for the multiplayer. Check out the high sales of Battlefield Bad Company 2 on the PC to kill off the old lie that piracy hurts sales.
So called piracy is EASILY combated. Look at games by Matrix Games or Stardock. Pirates tend to only pirate the very first versions of them and the games become like a demo, as extra features and fixes are released insubsequent patches which you can only get by registering your unique key! People that aren't really interested in the genre won't bother with the game, they wouldn't have bought it anyway but fans tend to buy the game even if they pirated it in order to get all the benefits.
THE ONLY REASON Ubi DOESN'T do this is because they are loathe to support their products besides the bare minimum, they don't want to keep adding to a game like Stardock has done with GalCiv II, supporting it for YEARS! Why not? If they really were worried about pirates taking all their profit, wouldn't it make more sense to fund after sales support to give free updates and improvements plus DLC for a year or two extra? It would also keep the game in the spotlight longer and generate more sales. The simple fact is piracy is a negligible problem and is just an excuse to cut development and quality control on the PC in order to concentrate on where the real money is.
Silanda
03-09-10, 02:01 PM
Do you guys just whine and make smartass comments? How about some empathy? How about some compassion and understanding in tough times? Sometimes in those tough times tough decisions need to be made, these people have responsibilities to their shareholders and employees that they need to fulfill. This isnt UNICEF, they dont make these games for you.
Ah diddums. Well you're damn right they don't make the games for me because I won't play them. I was pumped for SH 5 and I was going to buy Assassins Creed 2 as well, but now I will buy neither. I won't pirate the games, but I will not give Ubi a penny when pirates can play them more worry free than paying customers. Having to connect to the net at all times and having to rely on their servers being up is not an acceptable form of DRM. If offers nothing for paying customers other than trouble, and makes using a product that they paid for reliant on an external authority.
Now, how does it help their bottom line if many other people think like me? It's quite clear that a lot do.
MattDizzle
03-09-10, 02:05 PM
Im not saying this to be difficult, but i've never heard of any of the games you mentioned. I think i heard of galactic civilizations once, but thats just because i run in paradox interactive circles and that games is brought up as a continuation of the series often.
Also, console chipping is a pain in the ass, i've tried reflashing my xbox 360 and it failed miserably (before you say anything, this is before i developed my current stance on software piracy. You know, hearing facts and input and changing your mind? Anyone???) PC piracy can all be done with stock equipment and software.
Iron Budokan
03-09-10, 02:07 PM
Is that you, Trenken?
:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:
Schunken
03-09-10, 02:12 PM
Matt, you read my post?
Two simple sentences from Ubisoft:
"We apologize to our costumers for the problems with the game and the DRM. In the future we will do our best that this will not happen again!"
This simple public statement in the UBI SH5 Forum and I would be pleased at least.
This has nothing to do with shareholder value and nothing to do with earn money...
Its a simple rule: When you make a mistake than apologize.... very easy to do, isnt?
Andreas
Once again, a brand new poster supports Ubi.
I've read some decent defenses written by "old hand" members, but virtually all those posts that are sycophantic are written by new accounts. It may not be true, but it certainly makes it look as if Ubi is sending people to the forums to defend them.
While some of the OP's points are OK, the unreserved praise for OSP is absurd. Absurd. Particularly given the fact that we know it defeated pirates for all of 25 hours. Yes, Ubi claims that the game doesn't work right, but who knows if that is true or not—they have a vested interest in making people think that is the case, regardless of the veracity of the claim. If they want to demonstrate how their claim is true, they are welcome to post—and be very specific about what is missing. Short of that, I simply don't believe them one way or another.
It's also predicated on the absurd claim that "90% of the copies are pirated." This claim is meaningless. The only number that matters are lost sales. What % of pirated copies would have sold in the absence of a pirated version. My guess is that it's a vanishingly small %.
OP also completely neglects the idea of adding value via an online connection as an option.
OSP is all downside for the user, there are no upsides.
meanstreak
03-09-10, 02:16 PM
Ok, I'm a plain and simple man, I have very little understanding of the way these pirates work or the technical jiggery-pokery that software companies employ to combat them.
I have no problems with having this so called intrusive, anti-theft system bundled with my legitimate purchase so long as it and is implemented painlessly and doesn't cause me headaches and frustration .
Now it seems that in this respect it has failed.
All I know that I, along with every other paying customer are the ones getting bitten rather than the thieves it was intended to combat.. How is that fair?
No compassion from me I'm afraid.
I consider myself to be a prety good customer of Ubisoft's. I have let me see, Il2 Sturmovik, Il2 Sturmovik Forgotten Battles, Pacific Fighters, Il2 1946 (I even bought that Bounty patch), Silent Hunter III, Silent Hunter IV, Silent Hunter U-Boat Missions, Silent HUnter V + Assassins Creed 1 & 2. I installed Silenet Hunter V last night and it took around 6 or 7 tries to get logged on. I did get logged on eventually and finished the 1st mission without getting sunk :DL. The always on Internet connection is a PIA but I don't really see it lasting for ever, saying that if it does I will assume that it will get better as they get more experience with the various loads. DRM?, this is because of the movie and music industries refusal to adjust to the Internet and now its spread to the games industry. Another poster mentioned Stardock and Matrix games, I agree with his / her assessment that that is a better way of combating piracy and a lot simpler too. We all missed our chance to stop the DRM battle years ago when the Movie and Music industies started sueing people left right and centre. There should have been a boycott then pure and simple. The current power in the world is the US, they are run and to an extent governed by corporate lobbying and market qtr results, till that is fixed everyone else is following suit.
S!
Indietro
03-09-10, 02:27 PM
Noting else but Propaganda Thread IMO. Or the attempt to reach your hearts and gain some sort of symphaty or tolerance to what is plain mind****ing lol :)
MattDizzle
03-09-10, 02:28 PM
Once again, a brand new poster supports Ubi.
I have better things to do with my life than post about fake submarines 5000 times.
Im not saying this to be difficult, but i've never heard of any of the games you mentioned. I think i heard of galactic civilizations once, but thats just because i run in paradox interactive circles and that games is brought up as a continuation of the series often.
Also, console chipping is a pain in the ass, i've tried reflashing my xbox 360 and it failed miserably (before you say anything, this is before i developed my current stance on software piracy. You know, hearing facts and input and changing your mind? Anyone???) PC piracy can all be done with stock equipment and software.
Matrix Games makes and publishes wargames, such as ones by the guru Gary Grisby and all the Close Combat, Harpoon games for example. They are a niche market but are doing well without a crappy DRM.
Stardocks Galactic Civilizations II is a 4x space empire game that had sold over 300,000 copies BEFORE the release of even the last and best expansion for it in 2008. They kept patching and improving the game until late last year. So probably sold off 400,000 copies by now or more and without any DRM at all. They even had to suffer from a Starforce employee telling people where to get pirated copies of this game as they were annoyed that someone dared to release a game without a copy protection they were peddling!
You know of Paradox, and so you must know that they are doing fine without DRM and for a small company of a niche genre you'd think that piracy would be a devastating problem, but it isn't! Why not?
Face it, people most people that pirate wouldn't have bought the game anyway. On the other hand, piracy actually tends to increase purchases by undecided players who try the game, and get a desire for the online component. Yep, piracy helps sales.;)
serial numbers to install and play and CD-in requirements are fine; always online during the gameplay is not. I couldn't play a whole day yesterday because the DRM. I got VERY angry and intended to ship the game back to amazon..today it works luckily, but until the next DDoS attack? why paying customer is being punished? they could've come up with something better to protect their rights because this is obviously not working very well
BTW, I also bought Arma2 together with SH5 - why is it that the game doesn't have any online DRM and CD doesn't even have to be in the slot to play the game? Still sells well I guess? Those guys still make $$$ OK apparently? Honest folks BUYING it, that's why.
Why companies like UBI think that if they don't protect the product with ridiculously restrictive DRM that we'll ALL automatically steal it? What a hell of assumption. We ARE NOT all thieves. There is not a single product on my PC that I wouldn't pay for, and yes I paid for my Photoshop CS4 as well, and that costs way more then *******n copies of all the Silent Hunter series altogether.... I repeat, we, paying customers, are not all thieves. But UBI assumes that we are. Crap. Last game I ever bought from them if they'll insist that we'll steal the product if we can.... there are honest people around, people who BUY software, not steal it. We, customers, are not thieves. Those who use cracked games are, but they wouldn't buy the product anyway, so you can't talk about lost sales....the UBI tech support guy told me yesterday that their last game (I don't remember the title) turned out only 8% of paying customers so that's why the new online DRM. OK, 8% of whom? - it's eight percent of the world, not eight percent of potential customers. They got their math all ********n wrong.
I have better things to do with my life than post about fake submarines 5000 times.
Gotcha. No time to post about all your mods you've authored—and support them—but plenty of time to post about someone else's post count, and plenty of time to support a ridiculous DRM scheme by Ubi.
MattDizzle
03-09-10, 02:38 PM
plenty of time to post about someone else's post count
It only took a few seconds sir, it was very simple :)
Spartan
03-09-10, 02:40 PM
For what it is worth, I would rather have Ubi get out of the PC market all together and give up the SH franchise to an independent developer and publisher than to put up with its useless DRM antics that ONLY hurt legitimate users.
michaelws
03-09-10, 02:40 PM
There are always people on "both" sides of issues that are posted to the forums that don't want to admit they are wrong. I have been one of those in the past and will probably be right there in the future to cut off my nose to spite my face.
There is also validity to both sides of this issue. The study of economics is the learning of a process by which any suffering, regardless of the side it comes down on is the least that can be effected...
I believe most of the voices, even the ones that speak the loudest here, on both sides, are impassioned by their desire to play this simulation...I do not believe any of them are hoping to make a statement that would end a simulation evolving as Silent Hunter has striven to do over the years. Even the ones who make blasphemous comments...in their own way they are praising the simulation. If they truly didn't care about the game they would not even invest the time to post to the threads. There are trolls on every forum...who just like to strike and shock under the cloak of anonymity...but they are a small minority.
I WANT to get version 5. I have all the earlier versions of Silent Hunter and loved them and I was really looking forward to installing 5...but in reading a lot of the threads, even the ones that have been shut down, I really do hear the pleas of those who cannot play this game through no fault of their own. It is my CHOICE to stand by them for I find their argument credible and I would like to be a voice to UBISOFT on the side of correcting the DRM requirements...or ammending it so that you do not have to be online constantly to play single player.
I do not believe that any company that values it's customers will shy away from bad news, especially constructive criticism. That would definitely spell their demise.
I have better things to do with my life than post about fake submarines 5000 times.
He he but you still like to come here and defend UBIsoft's DRM OF something about FAKE SUBMARINES? They way you're going, you'll reach 5000 of your own posts by the morning ! :haha:
John Channing
03-09-10, 02:52 PM
Matt, you read my post?
Two simple sentences from Ubisoft:
"We apologize to our costumers for the problems with the game and the DRM. In the future we will do our best that this will not happen again!"
This simple public statement in the UBI SH5 Forum and I would be pleased at least.
This has nothing to do with shareholder value and nothing to do with earn money...
Its a simple rule: When you make a mistake than apologize.... very easy to do, isnt?
Andreas
Our servers endured a massive DDoS attack. Around 5 per cent of people attempting to connect between 8:30 a.m. and 3:00 p.m. Eastern Time on Sunday received denial of service errors. We apologize to anybody who wasn’t able to play Assassin’s Creed II or Silent Hunter 5 yesterday.
The Toronto Globe and Mail
March 8/2010
Apologies to anyone who couldn't play ACII or SH5 yesterday. Servers were attacked which limited service from 2:30pm to 9pm Paris time
Ubisoft Twitter Account
March 8/2010
Servers were attacked and while the servers did not go down, service was limited from 2.30pm to 9pm Paris time,” they explained to the big EG. They also apologise to those who were affected by this...
Rockpapershotgun.com
March 8/2010
Apologies to anyone who couldn't play ACII or SH5 yesterday," Ubisoft said...
The Register.co.uk
March 8/2010
Enough? There is lots more.
JCC
MattDizzle
03-09-10, 02:59 PM
Look, im not saying there arent issues. I'm saying the DRM makes sense, is better than what was offered in the past, and i have faith that they will work to solve problems.
They open a radical new service for their customers, and the launch of 2 huge games PLUS (apperantly) hacker attacks, and these are the only issues they have? I remember buying HL2 on steam in 2003 or 2004, now THAT was a pain in the ass :) I'm just sick of seeing this forum clogged with the same thread over and over.
Look guys, an internet forum is like a cable news network, all of us are just a bunch of nobodies with time to kill and a 24/7 audience to blab to. Do we talk about torpedo angles and submarine coatings, or do we pretend that there is some great moral outrage and we are somehow defenders of justice? Which feels right to you?
martes86
03-09-10, 03:01 PM
You guys do know that somewhere out there a game developer probibly is losing his house right now because his company couldnt afford to keep him on, right? Or do you guys not care about hypothetical people?
As a real software developer, I can tell you I'd prefer to lose my job a 1000 times over than screwing with my customers, which I think is unprofessional and plain wrong. And even if I lost my job, there'd sure be lots of IT jobs I could get in, it's not like we're in some undeveloped industry, there's a great demand of IT professionals in this modern world.
[...] and made a commitment to support this game years into the future (another benefit of episodic releases)
Wrong... the game is actually supported for as long as patches are being developed, and not all things are necessarily fixed. In Ubisoft, I think that's no longer than 1 year. Sure, other titles keep getting released, which shows some support of the franchise (and the will of the Devs to keep doing cool stuff), but... would you say that SH3 is still being supported? Or SH4? They could have used at least an additional patch or 2. SH5 is out so continued support of older titles is probably pointless, but it's not like support was dropped today.
I have better things to do with my life than post about fake submarines 5000 times.
Is it me, or does it smells like trolls? :ping:
Schunken
03-09-10, 03:18 PM
You get a Point John, thats true...
...but should it not be in the official SH5 Ubi Forum than on Twitter or 3rd party webpages???
The UBI Forums would be the 1st place where a apology should be adressed, isnt?
...at least its my foul as a german not read the Toronto Globe and Mail.... ;)
Andreas
John, all those apologies LIED.
The timeframe they presented was a handful of hours. We all know it was FAR longer than 2:30-9 or 9:30 pm.
Maybe 2:30 pm Saturday to well, didn't ducimus post about problems TODAY?
That's like having an airline cancel your flight, put you on a new flight 9 hours later, then sending you an email apologizing for the 2 hour delay.
John, all those apologies LIED.
The timeframe they presented was a handful of hours. We all know it was FAR longer than 2:30-9 or 9:30 pm.
Maybe 2:30 pm Saturday to well, didn't ducimus post about problems TODAY?
That's like having an airline cancel your flight, put you on a new flight 9 hours later, then sending you an email apologizing for the 2 hour delay.
Nicely spotted.
MattDizzle
03-09-10, 03:30 PM
About the 4000 posts comment: I will not be shouted down because my meaningless number is less than someone elses meaningless number.
The rest:
How many of these problems can be explained with people trying to play the game with weak or non-permenant internet connections? If you do not have the hardware required to play the video game (as stated in the "Required Hardware"), it is inadvisable to buy it. As i said with the cheapest cable connection offered locally i have not had a single DRM hiccup.
Its like having a DirectX6 video card, trying to run the game, than complaining that ubisoft is courting the lucrative "21st century computer" market, shamelessly abandoning their Silent hunter 2 fanbase to go after people with things like "Modern computers". If you live in australia and know that your internet goes out, dont buy the game. If you have 56K, dont buy the game. If you want to play it on a laptop, dont buy the game.
FFS it says it right on the front of the box, do i need to mention that again?
Seeschwein
03-09-10, 03:35 PM
I paid my 50 euros for SH5 (as I did for SH3 and 4 too, respectively, and ohh yes the U-Boat mission disk for SH4 too). I expect to have a product I can use. This was not the case with SH5. It was a DoS yesterday, it might be a problem with my own net connection tomorrow.
BTW, I've made it clear before that I'm fine with DRM, just not this DRM as it stands. Right now it's a system that makes piracy far more desirable than owning a legit copy. To me this is the wrong business model. They should add value so that the DRM version—even if 100% online—provides so much value, playing a hacked copy is a poor second.
I've even posted suggestions for how they might do this within the current OSP that might make it so desirable that the occasional outage that is the fault of Ubi (like this last one was) becomes acceptable.
1. Adopt a system like Napoleon: Total War where players can "drop in" and take the place of what would be AI in other players' campaigns. You'd never know if the DE near that enemy convoy was one of the various AI skill levels or some player hell bent on sinking a u-boat. Priceless.
2. The limiting factor on the immersiveness of the AI avatars is almost certainly their repertoire of audio files. Have the online connection trickle a new one to every copy of the game for every X hours of play (they'd need to have a special folder that these are pulled from so it doesn't continuously break mods that use the same files).
3. Weather? Perhaps a system that populates the game world with "real" weather where the clouds match current satellite pictures updated every so often (maybe pulled from X days back).
4. Streaming audio content (radio traffic, music, etc).
There might be more, though #1 would be a huge selling point, and #2 cool, but less spectacular.
About the 4000 posts comment: I will not be shouted down because my meaningless number is less than someone elses meaningless number.
The rest:
How many of these problems can be explained with people trying to play the game with weak or non-permenant internet connections? If you do not have the hardware required to play the video game (as stated in the "Required Hardware"), it is inadvisable to buy it. As i said with the cheapest cable connection offered locally i have not had a single DRM hiccup.
Its like having a DirectX6 video card, trying to run the game, than complaining that ubisoft is courting the lucrative "21st century computer" market, shamelessly abandoning their Silent hunter 2 fanbase to go after people with things like "Modern computers". If you live in australia and know that your internet goes out, dont buy the game. If you have 56K, dont buy the game. If you want to play it on a laptop, dont buy the game.
FFS it says it right on the front of the box, do i need to mention that again?
So Matt, let me get this straight. You say DRM/OSP/Upay is the best form of protection out there, and you want us to show compassion to Ubisoft, and now you're blaming the users who might not have proper hardware. Do I have that right?
Skullcowboy
03-09-10, 03:41 PM
<snip>they dont make these games to please you. <snip>
Unfortunately, I think this is one thing you got correct. And this is why they will fail. WE are the customers, not pirates. WE are the people who spend our hard earned disposable income on their product, not pirates. And WE ARE THE ONES THEY NEED TO PLEASE lest we take our money elsewhere. UBI seems to have forgotten about us and taken the stance of 'Damn the customers, we are going to beat those pesky pirates'.
I am not a pirate, I am a customer. Pirates don't buy games, customers do. Stop treating me like a pirate.
Galanti
03-09-10, 03:44 PM
2. The limiting factor on the immersiveness of the AI avatars is almost certainly their repertoire of audio files. Have the online connection trickle a new one to every copy of the game for every X hours of play (they'd need to have a special folder that these are pulled from so it doesn't continuously break mods that use the same files).
3. Weather? Perhaps a system that populates the game world with "real" weather where the clouds match current satellite pictures updated every so often (maybe pulled from X days back).
4. Streaming audio content (radio traffic, music, etc).
Brilliant ideas!
Matt,
my reference to post count was because virtually every single, post that is a flat-out support of the OSP system has come from someone with a very very low post count.
That doesn't mean every new member is a paid troll of Ubi, but after we've seen several of them come and go it certainly gives that appearance, particularly when they delurk to post glowing reviews of the OSP DRM. NOt saying you are, but you need to be aware that that might well be an assumption given the new user posts we've seen since the OSP thing was announced.
Your post count doesn't contribute to the quality of the argument one way or another, and that was not my point, anyway.
MattDizzle
03-09-10, 03:54 PM
UBI seems to have forgotten about us and taken the stance of 'Damn the customers, we are going to beat those pesky pirates.
Guys, look at this. Not flamign skullcowboy, just look at this ridiculous argument. Apparently giant game publishing companies are cartoon villans from scooby doo?
Task Force
03-09-10, 03:56 PM
Lol, I have nothing good to say to ubi... but I wish them the worst of luck.:up:
They will learn there lesson hopefuly... and tell us the truth... I dont believe this "we were attacked" thing... Its just easyer to say that than say "are servers cant handel the load, so they are *******ing up"
Skullcowboy
03-09-10, 04:02 PM
Guys, look at this. Not flamign skullcowboy, just look at this ridiculous argument. Apparently giant game publishing companies are cartoon villans from scooby doo?
Hmmm, you claim the producer of a product is not out to please customers and you call MY arguement ridiculous. My point is that they are more focused on the pirates than the customers. Still ridiculous? Then a fine day to you sir. :)
FFS it says it right on the front of the box, do i need to mention that again?
So??? That's the point isn't it? People read that you need to have a constant internet connection! THEY DO HAVE A CONSTANT INTERNET CONNECTION! They bought the game in good faith knowing this and accepting it! Yet they STILL CANNOT PLAY THE GAME!!!!
That is the problem, and that is why it's UBI's fault and their failure to not live up to the terms of sale!
So don't try and be pathetic mentioning directx 6 cards as if the people here that bought the game are retards. They have all that is needed to play the game and they still can't play whenever they want. This is a dishonest practice by UBI and indeed it is fraud. They took the money of paying gamers and refused to provide the services paid for.
briangw
03-09-10, 04:10 PM
To the OP:
I'm all about protecting IP and I think that some DRM is OK, but not this effort.
I'm a mobile gamer; I have a decent laptop that can run this. I also like to play games in places where there aren't any public hotspots. For Ubisoft forcing me to connect to their network to play this is ludicrous. There aren't many times that I am mobile, but it is plenty enough to interrupt m gaming. Why they can't have an offline solution like Steam is beyond me. :damn:
There may not be many others out there like me, but this is another example of Ubisoft not thinking about their different types of customers. I bought this game for several reasons: I love the modding community, the devs deserve the money and the series has long been a favorite of mine; On a related note, I still remember having a blast with Silent Service on the C64. But Ubisoft will not get another dime from me until they start considering their different types of customers. Why do I have to be punished for others' transgressions? My sentence to Ubisoft is to not enjoy their other titles until they consider other forms of protection. As someone mentioned ealier, companies like Stardock deliver high quality games with little to no DRM and they sell titles well. Piracy will always exist, but let's consider developing quality games and serve the customer, not sever them.
If you live in australia and know that your internet goes out, dont buy the game. If you have 56K, dont buy the game. If you want to play it on a laptop, dont buy the game.
FFS it says it right on the front of the box, do i need to mention that again?
Pure strawman argument.
I am on a fast broadband connection and basically couldn't play the game three days in a row.
You're more sounding like an UBI intern with every post.
"It's ze pirates' fault!"
"It's ze hackers' fault!"
"It's ze stoopid users' fault!"
"Praise UBI and their DRM!"
:har:
MattDizzle
03-09-10, 04:13 PM
You guys are saying "Do something else" "Try something else". Well what would you do that has the end result of getting more money from each silent hunter unit into the pockets of the developers and distributors? "Make better games, be nice and hope for the best" is not a responsible business model.
Ok, let me get around to ParaB's masterful post.
You're more sounding like an UBI intern with every post.
"It's ze pirates' fault!"
Again, i am sick of ze same threads again and again and i am defending ubisoft from ze popular opinion. I am not paid or employed by ubisoft in any way, so help me god :) it IS ze pirates fault, its 100% without a doubt ze fault of everyday people who steal products. Its why we lock our doors and install CCTV cameras, bad people exist.
"It's ze hackers' fault!"
For the Ddos attack, yes.
"It's ze stoopid users' fault!"
For ignoring ze system requirements and attributing ze resulting problems to "Failed, broken, stupid drm" (paraphrase) with a slight side note of people taking minor issues (say, a login timing out) and acting like their service dropped out for hours, before an ubisoft rep personally walked in and stabbed their brand new puppy.
"Praise UBI and their DRM!"
:har:
Ubi i dont know, i'm defending them as i would any other money making orginization, i have no personal attachment.
I believe the DRM is needed to get more money to the people who deserve it, and it is a vast improvement over what they have used in the past. I have had no issues with the software or online login function, and nobody i know has either. I belive that the issues reported can be attributed mostly to bad internet connections, the one hacking attack i know of, and teething issues for a radical new online service. Could i be speaking in any more plain english?
Look! I didnt even need a laughing emoticon to show my disapproval of your statements. I dont need to mock people, i only need to speak the truth. Thanks for playing though.
People see the box that says a constant net connection is required and buy the game. They do so because they know they have a constant net connection.
Their experience is that every time they fire up google, it works. Every time they go to buy something on Amazon, it works. They are operating under the assumption that the multi-billion Euro company Ubisoft can has similarly bulletproof servers. It doesn't even occur to them that UBI might fail the "constant connection" test—nor should it.
Ubi apologizing for "high demand" breaking there servers is rubbish, plain and simple. That's what you hear every single time you get most tech support call centers on the phone "due to high demand, waiting times are long, but calls will be answered in the order they are received. Many questions can be answered at poopyco.com." Note that if you aim for the sales floor, you are very rarely delayed.
It's NEVER high demand, it's demand in excess of what they chose to supply. They always lowball the capability to save money because in this case the servers or phone systems are not really mission critical. In the case of Ubi, the servers are not critical because they already took your money.
You guys are saying "Do something else" "Try something else". Well what would you do that has the end result of getting more money from each silent hunter unit into the pockets of the developers and distributors? "Make better games, be nice and hope for the best" is not a responsible business model.
I made suggestions that would work within OSP. Again, if you require 100% connectivity, then you MUST provide enough value that people accept the odd downtime (particularly if you go cheap on the server farm so you cannot deal with DDOS attacks).
Other than that, have some sort of offline mode. Heck, they could have OSP check your client on launch, then only recheck randomly during play. Some people would have the check during a session, others would have fewer than current checks, some would have none past startup. This would reduce server load. If the servers get above a certain number of requests, the refused connection could automatically enable play on all games—that should be the default behavior on a failure. Why would this not be just as good from a piracy standpoint as 100% on (particularly if it's cracked anyway?"
Well first of all this post seems like a shill to me...
However, is SH5 a niche game? Just what exactly defines a niche game in UBI's (or the posters opinion). Is there a total sales # that must be reached for it to become a mainstream game?
Im not buying that SH5 is a niche game. A niche game is like War in the pacific, and hello, thye charge over $100 for their game!
Point #2... simple math tells me that the DRM and the issue's its causing will, if they havent already, killed off a portion of their anticipated sales to a point where it negates the low cost but hefty DRM approach the poster is implying.
So, now ubisoft ( lets just say, for example) has 5 options:
1. Stop making niche games, Il2 and Silent hunter are not popular, they are made in europe and sent over here to what i am sure is a pitiful audience, maybe a tenth the size of the latest assasins creed game. They have chosen not to do this. Somewhere deep down they covet that EA money, but have chosen not to do this.
2. Charge $250 for silent hunter 5- 1939-1945 edition. Its simple math people, they need to get more money from less people to even have a hope of staying afloat, or expanding. They have chosen not to do this, kind of. (see 4)
Edit: Silent Hunter is the most award-winning submarine series of all time, with nearly 1.5 million copies sold worldwide. This franchise's previous release, Silent Hunter: Wolves of the Pacific, made a lasting solid impact on the franchise's growing fan base after it was released to worldwide critical acclaim, including being named 2007's "Simulation Game of the Year” by PC Gamer.
Niche game.... LOL
You guys are saying "Do something else" "Try something else". Well what would you do that has the end result of getting more money from each silent hunter unit into the pockets of the developers and distributors? "Make better games, be nice and hope for the best" is not a responsible business model.
It might be a strange idea to you but delivering quality products and support them actually makes lots of money. Ask Blizzard. Ask Valve. Ask Bioware.
It's not as if previous UBI titles, games like Morrowind, Oblivion, Far Cry, Batman: Arkham Asylum, Assassin's Creed and many, many more haven't actually sold well.
This is NOT about copy protection in the 1st place. It's much more about preventing 2nd hand sales and preparing the way for "gaming services" with pay-to-play schemes, something the gaming industry is aiming for in the not-too-distant future.
Start with enforcing online accounts even for offline, singleplayer games. Introduce DLC bound to said accounts. Offer "premium services" for monthly fees like MP servers, content packs, re-download guarantee etc. Reduce service for "free" accounts.
Voilà: welcome to your Silent Hunter series with monthly fees.
Which, I'm sure, you will welcome as a brilliant idea.
Silent Hunter: Wolves of the Pacific, made a lasting solid impact on the franchise's growing fan base
SH4 sold 50 000 copies in the U.S.
U.S. represents approximately 45% of worldwide sales.
Niche game.... LOL
:shifty:
MattDizzle
03-09-10, 04:44 PM
Start with enforcing online accounts even for offline, singleplayer games. Introduce DLC bound to said accounts. Offer "premium services" for monthly fees like MP servers, content packs, re-download guarantee etc. Reduce service for "free" accounts.
Remember, they need to make more money per unit sold to account for the lost units, optional downloads for money will not cut the mustard. Charging more would work, but thats a lot less subtle and is likely to lose the company money on sticker shock alone. Releasing a war game with half of a war is a nice way to double your income (which is a good thing/the whole point), actually a great idea.
FIREWALL
03-09-10, 04:59 PM
So when Ubisoft speaks it's, the voice of GOD and everyone bow and be believers....:roll:
Get a life. :har:
Actually really 1/4 the war. They could certainly do USN Fleet boats, and IJN boats. They could do u-boats for the ATO, and Allied escorts as another game. The latter is ideal for adding online content to a submarine game. Sell a "SH: Hunter Killers" or something using the existing DDs, DEs, etc, but with at least a bridge model in 3d. Maybe some guns, too.
Use the extant sonar stuff, maybe improved. Do convoy duty. Perhaps not as exciting as subs...
but allow players with the surface combatant game to "drop in" on u-boat players' games.
U-boat player (OSP) makes an attack, or gets detected (either tells the AI there is a sub around), and the game goes out and asks currently online "SH: Hunter Killers" players if they'd like to take over an AI escort prosecuting a player sub. they accept, and poof, that DE is now manned by a real person.
HUGE value added.
Bilge_Rat
03-09-10, 05:07 PM
Edit: Silent Hunter is the most award-winning submarine series of all time, with nearly 1.5 million copies sold worldwide. This franchise's previous release, Silent Hunter: Wolves of the Pacific, made a lasting solid impact on the franchise's growing fan base after it was released to worldwide critical acclaim, including being named 2007's "Simulation Game of the Year” by PC Gamer.
Niche game.... LOL
there was a discussion about this here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=161973
near as we can figure out, the total sales of all units are around 800,000
-sh 1 - 300,000
-sh 2 - 200,000
-sh 3 - 200,000
-sh 4 - 100,000
Not sure where the 1.5 million comes from, unless they count expansion packs like the SH4 U-Boat addon as a unit. SH1 had a few addons also, it sounds like a lot, but these are sales for the last 15 years, so yes the SH series is very mcuh a niche game.
Actually really 1/4 the war. They could certainly do USN Fleet boats, and IJN boats. They could do u-boats for the ATO, and Allied escorts as another game. The latter is ideal for adding online content to a submarine game. Sell a "SH: Hunter Killers" or something using the existing DDs, DEs, etc, but with at least a bridge model in 3d. Maybe some guns, too.
Use the extant sonar stuff, maybe improved. Do convoy duty. Perhaps not as exciting as subs...
but allow players with the surface combatant game to "drop in" on u-boat players' games.
U-boat player (OSP) makes an attack, or gets detected (either tells the AI there is a sub around), and the game goes out and asks currently online "SH: Hunter Killers" players if they'd like to take over an AI escort prosecuting a player sub. they accept, and poof, that DE is now manned by a real person.
HUGE value added.
+1000
I though a while back, if they are keeping us online anyway might as well make use of it. Have bug/crash data sent back to help sort out problems. See other players sail in and out of port. X's U-boat sighted. A lot of positive things you could do with the DRM other than just being tied to a damn server to play.
Eightbit
03-09-10, 05:29 PM
1. Adopt a system like Napoleon: Total War where players can "drop in" and take the place of what would be AI in other players' campaigns. You'd never know if the DE near that enemy convoy was one of the various AI skill levels or some player hell bent on sinking a u-boat. Priceless.
2. The limiting factor on the immersiveness of the AI avatars is almost certainly their repertoire of audio files. Have the online connection trickle a new one to every copy of the game for every X hours of play (they'd need to have a special folder that these are pulled from so it doesn't continuously break mods that use the same files).
3. Weather? Perhaps a system that populates the game world with "real" weather where the clouds match current satellite pictures updated every so often (maybe pulled from X days back).
4. Streaming audio content (radio traffic, music, etc).
There might be more, though #1 would be a huge selling point, and #2 cool, but less spectacular.
you just made me cream my pants. Imagine something minor like radio reports of other peoples exploits. Would be pretty sweet.
wetwarev7
03-09-10, 05:30 PM
Ok guys i'll make this as simple as i can.
Piracy is having a massive impact on getting PC games funded and green-lit (approved for production), more and more people are gaining acess to always-on broadband and the software required to pirate any game, software or movie they wish. Due to the unique way in which the internet is decentralized and tends to treat censorship or intrusion in any way like a body treats an infection (Contain and replace), i dont see this stopping any time in the future, or at least the next 10 years.
At the same time the costs associated with making a video game have skyrocketed, gamers demand bigger worlds, more accurate animations, gone are the days when it was a 2d bar with buttons and text speech. So the income has simultaneously been cut, while the costs continue to skyrocket.
Facts???
People keep parroting things like "Piracy is having a massive impact" and "costs associated with making a video game have skyrocketed" and other suppositions and labeling them facts in defense of this goat rodeo.
And yet not a single person has ever offered actual figures on things like this.
Here's a fact for ya. I can't play the game I paid for!
SH4 sold 50 000 copies in the U.S.
U.S. represents approximately 45% of worldwide sales.
:shifty:
I noticed you omitted SH3...:shifty:
Here's a thought, deliver a product that works, doesnt CTD, isnt full of bugs and if it is patch it quickly. But when you have a track record of releasing unfinished products (Sh3 and 4) time and time again and your sales for further incarnations of a series suffer, dont blame it on pirates and the game being a niche game, it's no ones fault but themselves.
Potential buyers are being turned off right now because when you google SH5 you get a ton of negatives.
Look, I dont want to argue with anyone here but when a poster with 3 posts comes in here and writes a blog about the reasons why UBI did this, it just stink of a Shill.
Here a test to see if a game is truly a niche game...
Is the game on mainstream store shelves? YES.
Not Niche.
Hat tip to ducimus for this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87pevh2Q0hg
DRM about 3:32. Spot on.
There was an article on Ubisofts new DRM in Norways biggest newspaper today. Looks like the Customer rights department is going to look into it. Spokesman from the department expressed that he was skeptical and said they would look into it. They are also going to look at other DRM's in games this fall. These things takes time but i'm glad that they will take a look at it.
Apple lost their case here a couple of years ago and had to remove DRM on MP3's that prevented the buyer to use the bought songs on other devices than the one it was downloaded to.
|TG|gunjunkie
03-10-10, 02:43 AM
1. Adopt a system like Napoleon: Total War where players can "drop in" and take the place of what would be AI in other players' campaigns. You'd never know if the DE near that enemy convoy was one of the various AI skill levels or some player hell bent on sinking a u-boat. Priceless.
2. The limiting factor on the immersiveness of the AI avatars is almost certainly their repertoire of audio files. Have the online connection trickle a new one to every copy of the game for every X hours of play (they'd need to have a special folder that these are pulled from so it doesn't continuously break mods that use the same files).
3. Weather? Perhaps a system that populates the game world with "real" weather where the clouds match current satellite pictures updated every so often (maybe pulled from X days back).
4. Streaming audio content (radio traffic, music, etc).
There might be more, though #1 would be a huge selling point, and #2 cool, but less spectacular.
This really, is the huge gap that exists between the right way to do this and what we currently have...
(first post by the way, hi all).
If only the suits thought this way. Kill two birds with one stone. Achieve the goals of the DRM, in a way that benefits customers and moves a game from evolutionary to revolutionary.
Sadly, this kind of thinking in the corporate echelons of the game biz is incredibly lacking. Quite frankly, I bought SH5 (besides reservations on the DRM) because I felt that I preferred this type of DRM to Starforce/Securerom that does things to my operating system that I would prefer not to have done to my operating system. That UBI can't run a server is the problem. That is the issue for me. I don't take their excuses for a second, because I do server stuff professionally, and I know that the issue they are having was completely, 100% avoidable, with enough care and design. That's sloppy. That is the problem. Spend the money, make it robust, this stuff isn't actually that hard.
I can only hope that developers of traditionally single player games (like sims) will figure out N:TW's drop in system (revolutionary), and decide to use it. I wouldn't complain about the DRM at all if it lead to this.
urfisch
03-10-10, 02:48 AM
useless thread...in my opinion. anyway..as some said: drm is a must these days, but the way of usage and the used system is, what counts! this drm we have here is a fraud...crap. cheeky...and not well developed. a pain in the ass...some might say, and would be right.
so, let ubi get their lessons and lets hope, there will be other studios, making it better.
so far...
:88)
bobafett_12
03-10-10, 02:53 AM
What's with all the love over the fact that Ubi is a moneymaking entity? Somehow the fact that they are a company who seeks to make a profit means they are justified in doing whatever they please to do so? This sounds like something you'd hear from a business major who hasn't had business ethics.
As for the the whole "The box lists an internet connection as required hardware" argument, the point is that the internet connection isn't required by the software to function properly, unlike the video card you mentioned in your horrible strawman argument.
The rest of your post has been torn apart in the rest of the thread, but the only sentiment that really matters is this: The DRM that Ubisoft has implemented has absolutely zero value to the end user. It's sole purpose is (supposedly) to help prevent piracy. It failed in this regard almost immediately upon release and furthermore it is actually preventing paid customers from using the product they purchased. End of story. It's terrible business practice and shows a complete lack of respect for the customers that support the company.
RSColonel_131st
03-10-10, 04:02 AM
BTW, I've made it clear before that I'm fine with DRM, just not this DRM as it stands. Right now it's a system that makes piracy far more desirable than owning a legit copy. To me this is the wrong business model. They should add value so that the DRM version—even if 100% online—provides so much value, playing a hacked copy is a poor second.
I've even posted suggestions for how they might do this within the current OSP that might make it so desirable that the occasional outage that is the fault of Ubi (like this last one was) becomes acceptable.
1. Adopt a system like Napoleon: Total War where players can "drop in" and take the place of what would be AI in other players' campaigns. You'd never know if the DE near that enemy convoy was one of the various AI skill levels or some player hell bent on sinking a u-boat. Priceless.
2. The limiting factor on the immersiveness of the AI avatars is almost certainly their repertoire of audio files. Have the online connection trickle a new one to every copy of the game for every X hours of play (they'd need to have a special folder that these are pulled from so it doesn't continuously break mods that use the same files).
3. Weather? Perhaps a system that populates the game world with "real" weather where the clouds match current satellite pictures updated every so often (maybe pulled from X days back).
4. Streaming audio content (radio traffic, music, etc).
There might be more, though #1 would be a huge selling point, and #2 cool, but less spectacular.
Brilliant ideas. This would actually add value to an "always on" requirement instead of just making it a burden.
RSColonel_131st
03-10-10, 04:06 AM
Ubi apologizing for "high demand" breaking there servers is rubbish, plain and simple. That's what you hear every single time you get most tech support call centers on the phone "due to high demand, waiting times are long, but calls will be answered in the order they are received. Many questions can be answered at poopyco.com." Note that if you aim for the sales floor, you are very rarely delayed.
It's NEVER high demand, it's demand in excess of what they chose to supply. They always lowball the capability to save money because in this case the servers or phone systems are not really mission critical. In the case of Ubi, the servers are not critical because they already took your money.
As someone with about 10 years in the tech support industry I can say you are absolutly correct and on the spot with these observations.
NefariousKoel
03-10-10, 04:15 AM
The OP has a lot of nerve, coming on here to defend such slimy business practices, while all these customers are rightly angry.
I'm appalled that anyone would attempt to defend such nonsense, even if they were drinking their daily alotted kool-aid straight from The Company as indicated by his reference to pirates having destroyed the industry.
I can only suspect that working for insurance companies has given him some strange empathy with others using questionable business practices. That or he's an incredibly sadistic troll. :nope:
3. Make piracy a pain in the ass. This is the dreaded DRM, if they can delay the first pirate a week before a copy hits bittorrent, thats money in the payroll account. You'd be stupid not to try. In the olden days of 2005 they used invasive and ridiculous software to do this (Starforce), today they use something no more invasive than a steam account. I support the online option 100% and have had no problems with it after more than a week of gameplay. Not a single disconnect or CTD. Releasing a "buggy" game from the box and already having a patch ready to go is also a great method. Offline pirates cant fix their game until they spend yet another week figuring out how the hell to get the patch working. Ubi has done this
This assumes that cracking/hacking games is in fact a pain in the ass. But I would think that it is more of a hobby for some people, a challenge. Maybe even a sport.
Indietro
03-10-10, 05:31 AM
Why still bother about things that are inevitable ? For every lock there will always be a SPECIAL key, get used to it or die trying :D
The Enigma
03-10-10, 06:59 AM
I know i really come off as someone with an axe to grind or some kind of employee of ubi, but im not.
My names matt, i work at a florida insurance company (not ubi), and i simply love military simulation PC games, and hope to see them made in the future.
Well, I hope they don't, at least not with this online osp/drm.
Despite your " UBI is right (no matter what they do)" post. :down:
If this is the future they have in mind, for me, they might as well stop developing the SH series. I'm not buying them with such OSP/DRM.
In that case I do hope a new company with it's heart at the right place will come up with a new sub simulator.
KL-alfman
03-10-10, 07:29 AM
Well, I hope they don't, at least not with this online osp/drm.
Despite your " UBI is right (no matter what they do)" post. :down:
If this is the future they have in mind, for me, they might as well stop developing the SH series. I'm not buying them with such OSP/DRM.
In that case I do hope a new company with it's heart at the right place will come up with a new sub simulator.
I' love to see that coming! :up:
and I agree to the rest of your post as well.
(couldn't care less for the fate of UBI as long as they stick to their U-pay-politics)!
Nordmann
03-10-10, 07:57 AM
I bought Battlefield Bad Company 2 the other day, and I have to say, their DRM is certainly much better than Ubi's. Upon installation, you are given the option of using either disc or online authentication. The former is the standard put the disc in to play the game format, while the latter simply checks that you are running a legal version (only once I believe). After which the game can be started without the disc.
The online option has an install limit of 10 machines, but crucially, is refunded each time the game is uninstalled. This means that there are in fact no restrictions on how, where and when you can play your game. If your net goes down, you simply install using the offline option (disc required), and run the game as you would any other.
Multiplayer requires an EA account, simply because this aspect of the game involves stats, ranks, and unlocks. But it is simple, easy to use, and again, isn't a requirement for single-player.
So you see, while software protection may be necessary, there are less intrusive options available. Ubi on the other hand, chose something which was always doomed to failure, and which only achieves the alienation of their paying customers.
The Enigma
03-10-10, 09:04 AM
Upon installation, you are given the option of using either disc or online authentication.
That's a solution I could accept.
So you see, while software protection may be necessary, there are less intrusive options available. Ubi on the other hand, chose something which was always doomed to failure, and which only achieves the alienation of their paying customers.
Wise words.
For the OP:
"The PC Gaming Alliance (PCGA) unveiled its 2009 Horizons Report, an exclusive research study encompassing all aspects of the PC gaming industry worldwide. Among the key findings is that PC gaming software revenue was a $13.1 billion industry in 2009, up 3% from 2008." Source: worthplaying.com
So much for piracy devastating the PC gaming scene!
I noticed you omitted SH3...:shifty:
I was quoting YOU !? :nope:
Take a look at your previous post (#62) you're talking about SH4.
This franchise's previous release, Silent Hunter: Wolves of the Pacific, made a lasting solid impact on the franchise's growing fan base after it was released to worldwide critical acclaim, including being named 2007's "Simulation Game of the Year” by PC Gamer.
Niche game.... LOL
Solid impact ??
It sold 50 000 copies in the U.S. and approximately 110 000 copies worldwide.
This is solid impact for you, OK, as you wish...
Apache312
03-10-10, 12:31 PM
While I support non-intrusive DRM, as the game has many dollars involved with its creation, this was not the way to go. I have been an avid gamer for the last 20 years, and this is the worst implementation of DRM that I have seen. I too have watched genres go by the wayside due to inept management...ie Rainbow series (Ubisoft). Rainbow hasnt died fully, but the latest PC versions are a mere port of the X-Box..and followers did notice.
There are many other ways of getting your investment protected for the sales release; Steam, Codemasters method, DCS's method, Bohimia's method...and so on. I know Starforce is not popular, but has been completely dealt a wrongful smear campaign. After much reasearch, it appears fewer people have had true issues than the majority.
What is Ubisoft gaining with this method? I am voting with my wallet...as are many others. I want to play a new subsim, but not under their terms...I play games under my terms, and will hold out until they come up with a better DRM solution. Hopefully I wont have to wait for a bargain bin purchase before Ubi decides to revamp this mistake. As of late, all games are released half-baked, so I cannot gripe too loudly, as Ubi would just point the finger at others. This DRM doesn't have to be this bad...come on Ubi, I want to purchase your game, now just make it something that is worthy of purchase.
/S
Apache312
voidster
03-10-10, 12:54 PM
actually the DRM is working. If you take the time and go visit pirate boards you will see people jumping for joy over sh5's crack only to see them complain about not being able to even complete the first part of the career. It must update the servers or vice versa once you complete an objective, then UBI's servers sends the proper data to unlock other missions or whatever. At least thats the theory..
I can say though im done with the SH series. Im sick to death of the current problems of sh5, floating rocks, pathetic depth keeping, apparently im stupid cause even using the auto TDC i cant hit the broad side of a barn. Real tutorials would have been great!..too bad they forgot about it. Oh then dont forget about running into a massive convoy, just asking for torpedos only to see a net disconnect and a autosave failure.
Id go to sh4 again but im sick of the campain save corruption issues...wth couldnt they have FIXED that before creating a new one?...nope. :damn:
For now its on the shelf and uninstalled, maybe in 2 years someone will fix the problems. All I know is UBI will NEVER get my income again.
sorry for the negative attitude but i hate spending 50 bucks only to find its a dust collector.
Pilot37
03-10-10, 01:09 PM
It appears that I paid for something that I cannot use at any time that I like. I am really furious!:damn: DONT BUY THIS UNTIL THEY FIX DRM. There can be no justification for upsetting paying customers by removing their right to use the software. I don't care what the reason is, IT SHOULDN'T BE MY PROBLEM.
Sailor Steve
03-10-10, 01:14 PM
Do you guys just whine and make smartalec comments? How about some empathy? How about some compassion and understanding in tough times? Sometimes in those tough times tough decisions need to be made, these people have responsibilities to their shareholders and employees that they need to fulfill. This isnt UNICEF, they dont make these games to please you. Oh yea, and they warned us in advance, and printed it in big black and white letters on the front of the box, and made a commitment to support this game years into the future (another benefit of episodic releases)
Do you people have any constructive suggestions? Or just complaints about whatever is in front of you.
I've been a supporter of submarine simulation games since Silent Service in the 1980s. When I didn't have a computer that would run SH3 I bought it anyway, just to support the franchise. Luckily I came up with the money to buy a new PC just a few weeks later.
When SH4 was released I was out of work and homeless. As soon as I had some money I bought a copy just to support the genre and the only company making the game I wanted to play. It was almost a year before I actually got to play it.
When SH5 was being touted I wasn't sure if I would be able to play it either, and, in spite of some of the bad impressions being garnered around the community, I came out and said I would buy it no matter what.
So now they've released it and I won't ever get to play it, because when I don't have enough money to spread around the first thing to go is the internet connection, which to me is a luxury. I can always go to the library to get online, which is where I am now.
So I haven't bought the game. Why? If I couldn't play it because my PC wouldn't run it, that's nobody's fault but mine, and I'd buy it anyway. But I can't play it because UBIsoft says I don't count. Nor does the customer who vacations in a remote place and likes to play sometimes. Nor can the customer who plays on his laptop to while away a long flight.
Constructive suggestions? Please stop treating good customers who have been faithful for years in such a dismissive manner. Why should I support this kind of disrespect?
And I'll ask the same question of you: HOW ABOUT SOME EMPATHY?
MattDizzle
03-10-10, 01:21 PM
That's a solution I could accept.
Wise words.
Disk authentication is pointless, and can be beaten with a simple virtual drive or nocd cracked EXE.
The only way for DRM to be effective is to intrude. If its not intrusive about weither your game is real or not, or you just register once and its over, its easy to defeat.
Apache312
03-10-10, 01:23 PM
Bravo Sailor Steve. I completely spaced out on the traveling deal. I travel for work, and I take my personal laptop so I can be entertained while away from home. Hotel WiFi is crappy at best. I guess im in your boat as well, as I wouldnt even be able to play SH5, even if I didnt disagree with this DRM.
Oh well, hopefully all the articles on the internet will help Ubi come to a better conclusion of what its customer base wants.
/S
Apache312
blackdog_kt
03-10-10, 01:27 PM
actually the DRM is working. If you take the time and go visit pirate boards you will see people jumping for joy over sh5's crack only to see them complain about not being able to even complete the first part of the career. It must update the servers or vice versa once you complete an objective, then UBI's servers sends the proper data to unlock other missions or whatever. At least thats the theory..
Well, up until yesterday i think. Recent (deleted) posts on the UBI forum by angry legitimate owners suggest there is no network traffic relating to missions whatsoever, it's all in your SH5 folder. Just edit a couple cfg files after you complete each mission and you're good to do.
The game is fully functional without an internet connection because, apparently, the developer team never intended it to be dependent on one and didn't design it this way. It was just an afterthought by UBI that was slapped on before release.
Same old propaganda peddled by companies that do not want to support the PC but prefer the consoles. Console piracy is also strong, but you rarely see anyone whining about it.
XBOX/PS3/Wii : This is the reason that PC games are not being supported as much, it's a cheap standardised platform that maximises revenue and minimises cost of development.
The move to multiplayer gaming also means that games that are initially pirated end up being bought by the pirates for the multiplayer. Check out the high sales of Battlefield Bad Company 2 on the PC to kill off the old lie that piracy hurts sales.
So called piracy is EASILY combated. Look at games by Matrix Games or Stardock. Pirates tend to only pirate the very first versions of them and the games become like a demo, as extra features and fixes are released insubsequent patches which you can only get by registering your unique key! People that aren't really interested in the genre won't bother with the game, they wouldn't have bought it anyway but fans tend to buy the game even if they pirated it in order to get all the benefits.
THE ONLY REASON Ubi DOESN'T do this is because they are loathe to support their products besides the bare minimum, they don't want to keep adding to a game like Stardock has done with GalCiv II, supporting it for YEARS! Why not? If they really were worried about pirates taking all their profit, wouldn't it make more sense to fund after sales support to give free updates and improvements plus DLC for a year or two extra? It would also keep the game in the spotlight longer and generate more sales. The simple fact is piracy is a negligible problem and is just an excuse to cut development and quality control on the PC in order to concentrate on where the real money is.
This post hits the nail on the head. All these piracy and DRM issues are mainly an excuse to stop making quality PC games.
Even if there was no piracy, PC games are usually more complicated than console games, or at least the PC platform gives them the potential to be. That means they take longer for the developer to make, but they also take longer for the player to finish, they have some replayability and they can also be gifted, loaned or resold.
What does that mean? That in the time you paid $40, have finished a single SH5 campaign and are getting to ready start your second career, a console gamer might have gone through 3-4 separate titles of $40 each. That's the real deal here guys and i'm glad that people in the sim genre like Oleg Maddox understand it and openly state that for a simulator to succeed you need a good product and loyal fans (that means good support), instead of artificial fiery hoops tacked onto the release which legitimate buyers will have to jump through while fighting a bear with one hand tied behind their back before the game actually lets them play ;)
It's sad to have developers that strive to advance this hobby and then have their efforts destroyed by the publisher's whims or delusions of grandeur. See for example Rise of Flight, same story. Limited content, online DRM (i think that even now with the offline SP patch you can't fly the campaign unless you're online, just the single missions), micro-payment model and all that because the team ran out of money and had to rely on some investors, who naturally want a fast return of their invested money.
In a perfect world our games would be distributed and published by companies with a sim-heavy background and i bet they'd do really well too. Imagine a handful of companies like the Maddox team or Aerosoft having the publishing rights for 90% of the simulator titles. They know how hard it is to make a good one, they are not afraid to delay the release if that means a more complete product but most of all, they know that the money with simulators is not the impulse buyer, but the long time fan. These are not your weekly distractions, they are games that keep being played for as much as a decade. Good support, nifty after-sales incentives to own an original version and a steady stream of improvements and you're going to make enough money to not only stay afloat as a company, but also fund your next project for some years (exactly what happened with IL2 funding the development of the next sim series starting with battle of Britain).
The question is who's going to bother. The answer is obviously companies that already have a simulation background and not the jack-of-all-trades megacorps who aim mostly at "firework" products (5-6 months of immense sales and gameplay, then the game gets totally forgotten).
robbo180265
03-10-10, 01:29 PM
I've been a supporter of submarine simulation games since Silent Service in the 1980s. When I didn't have a computer that would run SH3 I bought it anyway, just to support the franchise. Luckily I came up with the money to buy a new PC just a few weeks later.
When SH4 was released I was out of work and homeless. As soon as I had some money I bought a copy just to support the genre and the only company making the game I wanted to play. It was almost a year before I actually got to play it.
When SH5 was being touted I wasn't sure if I would be able to play it either, and, in spite of some of the bad impressions being garnered around the community, I came out and said I would buy it no matter what.
So now they've released it and I won't ever get to play it, because when I don't have enough money to spread around the first thing to go is the internet connection, which to me is a luxury. I can always go to the library to get online, which is where I am now.
So I haven't bought the game. Why? If I couldn't play it because my PC wouldn't run it, that's nobody's fault but mine, and I'd buy it anyway. But I can't play it because UBIsoft says I don't count. Nor does the customer who vacations in a remote place and likes to play sometimes. Nor can the customer who plays on his laptop to while away a long flight.
Constructive suggestions? Please stop treating good customers who have been faithful for years in such a dismissive manner. Why should I support this kind of disrespect?
And I'll ask the same question of you: HOW ABOUT SOME EMPATHY?
Thanks for the post Steve-kinda feel a little better about myself after reading your post. I have no-doubt that I will cave in and buy this game at some point, but for the time being the only thing stopping me is the bleeding DRM. It treats us all as pirates and that's just not on.
Silanda
03-10-10, 01:30 PM
Disk authentication is pointless, and can be beaten with a simple virtual drive or nocd cracked EXE.
The only way for DRM to be effective is to intrude. If its not intrusive about weither your game is real or not, or you just register once and its over, its easy to defeat.
Firstly, running a game from a virtual drive usually requires a bit more faffing around than simply making an image of the game. The copy protection isn't that poor.
Secondly, intrusive copy protection is equally pointless. It can always be cracked in the end and only temporarily delays the inevitable. On the flip side, as has been stated a number of time, it makes life difficult for legitimate users and doesn't affect pirates one iota. How is that effective copy protection when it positively encourages people to pirate the game in order to get the best gameplaying experience?
MattDizzle
03-10-10, 01:54 PM
How is that effective copy protection when it positively encourages people to pirate the game in order to get the best gameplaying experience?
Because in polite society we expect people not to commit crimes because its convenient. And nobody, ubi included, expects this DRM to be anything more than a temporary delaying action.
As stated above, now even when pirates get SH5 running, they run into trouble when they try to save, or start a new mission, or do something. So far its working perfectly for me, and perfectly as DRM. Of course problems exist but this forum is no more a fair representation of the silent hunter community than Fox news is of american politics and journalism. Its a self-feeding machine of rage and peer gratification, the perfect example of preaching to the choir, any dissenting voices are shot down as interns and idiots. DRM DRM DRM! UBI UBI UBI! OUTRAGE AND BOYCOTT.
robbo180265
03-10-10, 02:04 PM
Because in polite society we expect people not to commit crimes because its convenient. And nobody, ubi included, expects this DRM to be anything more than a temporary delaying action.
As stated above, now even when pirates get SH5 running, they run into trouble when they try to save, or start a new mission, or do something. So far its working perfectly for me, and perfectly as DRM. Of course problems exist but this forum is no more a fair representation of the silent hunter community than Fox news is of american politics and journalism. Its a self-feeding machine of rage and peer gratification, the perfect example of preaching to the choir, any dissenting voices are shot down as interns and idiots. DRM DRM DRM! UBI UBI UBI! OUTRAGE AND BOYCOTT.
U MAD?
Of course problems exist but this forum is no more a fair representation of the silent hunter community than Fox news is of american politics and journalism.
:haha::rotfl2:
So far its working perfectly for me
It's working perfectly for me too. (OSP, not bugs).
Its a self-feeding machine of rage and peer gratification, the perfect example of preaching to the choir, any dissenting voices are shot down as interns and idiots. DRM DRM DRM! UBI UBI UBI! OUTRAGE AND BOYCOTT.
I know, some folks just need to vent their frustrations over something they did not experienced. ;)
As I said, it's useless to argue, you're wasting your time! :timeout:
OakGroove
03-10-10, 02:17 PM
@ OP disagree on all points, except your first.
Re. More expensive niche products.
http://www.heatvisionblog.com/2010/03/tom-clancy-ghost-recon-future-soldier-logorama.html
In other parts of the world you can produce several game titles with these assets. They allocate it to some Oskar winners for doing a 20 min advertisement for their "F-16 On Legs" shooter franchise. I can see Ubi catering the casual games/console markets - but let's leave it at that.
Steiger
03-10-10, 02:38 PM
I thought this picture would be very relevant to our conversation. Yeah it's about movies, but the point stands. Enjoy.
http://i.imgur.com/GxzeV.jpg
Skullcowboy
03-10-10, 02:39 PM
Because in polite society we expect people not to commit crimes because its convenient. And nobody, ubi included, expects this DRM to be anything more than a temporary delaying action.
As stated above, now even when pirates get SH5 running, they run into trouble when they try to save, or start a new mission, or do something. So far its working perfectly for me, and perfectly as DRM. Of course problems exist but this forum is no more a fair representation of the silent hunter community than Fox news is of american politics and journalism. Its a self-feeding machine of rage and peer gratification, the perfect example of preaching to the choir, any dissenting voices are shot down as interns and idiots. DRM DRM DRM! UBI UBI UBI! OUTRAGE AND BOYCOTT.
So a company TELLS us that we want something and that is in our best interest to just accept it. We decide we DON'T want it and it isn't of value to us. When we don't just roll over, take the buggering and pony up our cash, then we, the CONSUMERS, are the problem?
Really.
Sell a lot of insurance with that attitude towards customers?
MattDizzle
03-10-10, 02:48 PM
Pirates are the problem, customers become the problem only when they form an argument without knowing all the facts, and that misinformed argument becomes a movement.
Customers are always right, and can never be pirates.
Not all users of Silent hunter games are customers
Even if piracy didnt exist, it still takes more time and money to make a game than it did 5 or 10 years ago, but we expect to pay the same amount. Or do you think the same effort went into Aces of the Deep as did Silent Hunter 5? If i'm wrong correct me, but didnt they cost roughly the same, despite you getting much less game for your money? Denying that bigger teams of people ($$Expen$ive$$) are needed to make these newer, more complex sims flies in the face of simple common sense, and i dont know how else i can convince you of this.
To not lose money due to expending more resources to make "bigger" games, they need to give you less product for the same money, or the same product for more money. More product for the same money means more money in the pockets of the consumers, which is not where it belongs from a business perspective. This is before you even begin to get to the issue of piracy, which due to simple GUI programs and the fact that most of us dont have 14.4K modems anymore, is more rampant than it used to be.
Pirates are the problem, customers become the problem only when they form an argument without knowing all the facts, and that misinformed argument becomes a movement.
Customers are always right, and can never be pirates.
Not all users of Silent hunter games are customers
Even if piracy didnt exist, it still takes more time and money to make a game than it did 5 or 10 years ago, but we expect to pay the same amount. Or do you think the same effort went into Aces of the Deep as did Silent Hunter 5? If i'm wrong correct me, but didnt they cost roughly the same, despite you getting much less game for your money? Denying that bigger teams of people ($$Expen$ive$$) are needed to make these newer, more complex sims flies in the face of simple common sense, and i dont know how else i can convince you of this.
To not lose money due to expending more resources to make "bigger" games, they need to give you less product for the same money, or the same product for more money. More product for the same money means more money in the pockets of the consumers, which is not where it belongs from a business perspective.
Then they should have raised the price. Although it is impossible to prove a win, I would bet all the liquid assets I have that they could have doubled the price, forgone any copy protection, and spent the money they wasted on OSP on actually making the game better and would have sold more copies than they will with this approach.
It is just business and they have made a terrible business decision based on emotion instead of profit.
At least we know they are not Ferengi!
Rip
jwilliams
03-10-10, 02:54 PM
Pirates are the problem, customers become the problem only when they form an argument without knowing all the facts, and that misinformed argument becomes a movement.
Customers are always right, and can never be pirates.
Not all users of Silent hunter games are customers
Even if piracy didnt exist, it still takes more time and money to make a game than it did 5 or 10 years ago, but we expect to pay the same amount. Or do you think the same effort went into Aces of the Deep as did Silent Hunter 5? If i'm wrong correct me, but didnt they cost roughly the same, despite you getting much less game for your money? Denying that bigger teams of people ($$Expen$ive$$) are needed to make these newer, more complex sims flies in the face of simple common sense, and i dont know how else i can convince you of this.
To not lose money due to expending more resources to make "bigger" games, they need to give you less product for the same money, or the same product for more money. More product for the same money means more money in the pockets of the consumers, which is not where it belongs from a business perspective.
Game prices have risen for me..... About 20 years ago games used to cost 10 UK pounds (dont have pound sign on this US keyboard) and now silent hunter 5 will cost me NZ$100... which is about 35 UK pounds. or NZ$120 for collectors ed. about 45 UK pounds.
Also games now sell many more copies then they did.
So games cost about 3 1/2 times more than they did and they sell about 10 times more copies.
MattDizzle
03-10-10, 03:43 PM
Did you remember to adjust for inflation?
Also, do you really think good games generally sell better than bad games? Honestly? Seriously? :damn:
jwilliams
03-10-10, 04:06 PM
Did you remember to adjust for inflation?
Also, do you really think good games generally sell better than bad games? Honestly? Seriously? :damn:
No i didnt take inflation into account. But thought it obvious that the average income hasnt increased by 3 1/2 times.
The price of PC games has increased by approx 300% (compared to 20 years ago) Income has not increased by anywhere near that amount.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5d/Household_income_65_to_05.png/500px-Household_income_65_to_05.png
Game companies ARE making alot more money than they used too.
http://www.acagamic.com/uploads/2009/01/video_game_industry_revenue.png
And wether a good game sells better than bad games is not part of the argument.
Sure it cost more to make games.... but companies are also making more money.
Armistead
03-10-10, 04:11 PM
The economy is hard all right, so you do everything possible to make your customers happy because many are hanging on to their money. It's not my job to worry about a designer sitting at home, he wouldn't be if common sense practices were put in place.
Many of us didn't buy SH5 because of DRM..Let's see, couple hundred post of people that couldn't play their game Sunday because Ubi's servers were down.. Doesn't matter how or why, they were down. They went down once and they will again. It will be a problem that will continue until it's dropped. I can see it now. Have the day to yourself. Get your drink ready, sit and ready for some game time...cannot connect...not me.
If I operated my business by delivering a half finished product that could only be used when I said so...I would rightfully be out of business.
That tells me it was the right decision not to buy and wait until I can get it in a bargain bin...Many customers not buying equals DRM is the problem. If they think they can make more money by stopping pirates a few days over thousands not buying until it's in a bargain bin...the pirates have a double win. Not to mention they've created a new generation of pirates.
MattDizzle
03-10-10, 04:20 PM
Sure it cost more to make games.... but companies are also making more money.
But i am saying that the cost of making a game skyrockets in line with the ridiculous increase in computing power over time, what used to take a team of 5 or 10 a few months may take 100 people years to make. If they are making 3 times more money and the game takes 15 times more money to make, well you do the math.
Tell me this, do you think a company has a responsibility to deliver a quality product, even if this might hurt the amount of money that they make? (yes or no would be great) Remember that the money you spend on a game is putting food on someones table, and if it wasnt for the assult charges that would follow i would personally kick every pirate i could find squarely in the nuts. I'm not talking about big whigs in suits, im talking about someone they hire to sweep the floors or someone to keep all the windows vista computers from crapping out, someone who takes phone calls or arranges travel for employees.
Stealing is a crime, and it has its victims. Screw the word "Piracy", that makes it sound cool, its theft. No different from slipping a shirt into your coat at the mall. Just imagine how that would go down on this forum... "Lol stupid ubiclothes and their anti-theft shirt alarms, I AM NOT A THIEF, why do i have to wait for the store clerk to undo this alarm thing from the merchandise? Thats time from my life i will never get back, im boycotting this store! You know if they made a better quality shirt they would make more money, its simple!".
Chromius
03-10-10, 04:39 PM
Its called pointing the finger at the easiest thing you will believe. Its the same thing your Governments do when they dont want you to notice all the f-ed up things they are doing.
Pointing the finger at piracy is easier than pointing the finger at corporate greed.
Lets all consume ourselves into an early grave and forget that quality over quantity does matter.
DRM as it has been implemented is unacceptable, coming home and looking forward to playing and not being able to is BS, find some other form of NON-intrusive measures.
I also agree on games with no intrusive measures like Gal Civ 2 and DCS and Steelbeasts Pro, Paradox titles, Fallout 3 even still do fine.
And on the timeline and amount of sales, back when I gamed just about no one had computers and now there is an international audience and every 3rd world country has internet and computers? So yes piracy would be rampant but there would be a larger overall audience even in the niche sim area? Just as has been claimed its all about higher profits margins and delivering less. Just because our graphics were blocky we still had the best available given the hardware. Stop feeding into "Piracy is why you are getting unfinished/unrealized products for top dollar."
And do you realize in a bad economy, that people are laid off and people go out of business , because the shareholders who make the big bucks pull out because they arent makeing enough PROFITS from there investments, and not because the company is doing badly. God so many brainwashed people, if you knew the truth of Governments , banks , insurnace you would all get guns and start a revolution, oh wait American Idol is on I better go watch that, lol. Tools
(Im a legitimate buyer/owner of many Ubisoft titles, All Il-2 products, Assassins Creed 1 , all SH products, F1 racing sim, Far Cry, Heroes of M&M5, Lock on Modern air Combat, A bunch of Rainbow 6 and Ghost recon, Warlord Battlecry II, World in Conflict, and probably a few more.)
MattDizzle
03-10-10, 04:52 PM
You know you didnt respond to anything i said, right? Keep that bitching fluff filler on the other 20+ DRM threads on this forum currently going.
Yo, Matt/Trenken, brother! :salute:
I need money! Where do I sign up and get paid for posting on forums spreading corporate agenda and propaganda?
Job sure looks like fun!:rock:
robbo180265
03-10-10, 05:04 PM
You know you didnt respond to anything i said, right? Keep that bitching fluff filler on the other 20+ DRM threads on this forum currently going.
I haven't made my mind up as to whether you are trolling or not yet.
Ok to answer your "good business sense" argument. SH5 has now dropped to £22 on Amazon. This is mainly because of the terrible reviews it's getting from players who have not been able to log on to the server and actually play the game that they paid for. Obviously the bugs have had an impact on the reviews too.
There are many reports in the media about the server outage, I would imagine that this is putting people off buying the game too.
The Ubi forums are not raving about the DRM or the game (as it is now) In fact Ubi are being crucified there right now.
So exactly how was using the DRM good business sense again?
maurader
03-10-10, 05:16 PM
But i am saying that the cost of making a game skyrockets in line with the ridiculous increase in computing power over time, what used to take a team of 5 or 10 a few months may take 100 people years to make. If they are making 3 times more money and the game takes 15 times more money to make, well you do the math.
Actually making a game (the actual game programming) actually takes less time today than it did in the past.
The reason is two fold:
1. There are much more programming tools that streamlines the programming and debugging process. Complete engines are avaliable right off the shelf to accomodate getting the program out there faster. People dont program in machine code any more, they can use higher level languages.
2. The faster computers allow much faster compile times. I recall in the past with very large programs setting it to compile overnight and then coming in the next day to test the executable.
The biggest cost now is in the artists and not the programmers. Every big company is trying to make their games "prettier" than the competition.
Skullcowboy
03-10-10, 05:23 PM
Pirates are the problem, customers become the problem only when they form an argument without knowing all the facts, and that misinformed argument becomes a movement.
Funny how when ever someone complains about DRM they are accused of being misinformed or just plain pirates. I am neither.
Customers are always right, and can never be pirates.
But that's not what you just said above, about them being right, anyway...
Not all users of Silent hunter games are customers
I have never disputed this.
Even if piracy didnt exist, it still takes more time and money to make a game than it did 5 or 10 years ago, but we expect to pay the same amount. Or do you think the same effort went into Aces of the Deep as did Silent Hunter 5? If i'm wrong correct me, but didnt they cost roughly the same, despite you getting much less game for your money?Denying that bigger teams of people ($$Expen$ive$$) are needed to make these newer, more complex sims flies in the face of simple common sense, and i dont know how else i can convince you of this.
The price of the game is not the issue here. I WOULD pay more for the product if I felt it provided the value for that price.
To not lose money due to expending more resources to make "bigger" games, they need to give you less product for the same money, or the same product for more money. More product for the same money means more money in the pockets of the consumers, which is not where it belongs from a business perspective. This is before you even begin to get to the issue of piracy, which due to simple GUI programs and the fact that most of us dont have 14.4K modems anymore, is more rampant than it used to be.
Again, I am not disputing this. Again, my point is and has always been (even after you called it ridiculous) that the focus of your business must be on the CUSTOMER. To be a tad blunt, the customer does not care about production, development, resources, distribution issues, payrolls, whether one of the employees has a place to live or pirates. It is not the customers responsibility to fix your business model. But when the focus of your business becomes any of the aforementioned issues to the detriment of the customer there is a serious problem and those customers will take their cash elsewhere.
And really, calling us uninformed, pirates, or comparing us to Fox News because we do this just confirms that you lost us because you either didn't care or just plain forgot about us, THE CUSTOMERS, to begin with.
NefariousKoel
03-10-10, 05:24 PM
Keep that bitching fluff filler on the other 20+ DRM threads on this forum currently going.
No.
We like poking the corporate goose-stepping stooge. It's amusing how much of a D-bag you prove to be. :yeah:
jwilliams
03-10-10, 05:30 PM
My no reply was due to me seeing your point.
Increase in revenue does not = increase in profit. fair enough.
But there is no need to be rude.
You know you didnt respond to anything i said, right? Keep that bitching fluff filler on the other 20+ DRM threads on this forum currently going.
And where is this increase in cost mostly going. IMO graphics.
Is the gameplay better.... from 20 years ago.. the answer is yes.
But from 5-10 years ago.. the answer is NO.
Sure i like to have nice graphics, but not at the expense of gameplay.
Releasing a game that is only half finished and is full of bugs is not going to win you sales.
Sure companies have the right to stop people pirating their software. But at the expense of losing their customers? Is that good business sence?
This new DRM system combined with a half finished, full of bugs SH5 isnt going to make them more profit.
Bilge_Rat
03-10-10, 05:30 PM
Game companies ARE making alot more money than they used too.
Ubisoft profits have been going down for a few years and they are forecasting a loss this year, but don't take my word for it. Their financial statements are online and if they lie in those, company excutives and the auditors are going to jail.
Mattdrizzle, I don't know why you are wasting your time in this thread. If you really want to know how the so called "sub sim community" feels, look right here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=164177
60% of "the community" say SH5 is GOOD.
and even more important is this "poll":
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/bestselling-pc-download-games-of-the-week-purchasers-unperturbed-by-protective-measures-1918550.html
The rest is just meaningless background noise.
Skullcowboy
03-10-10, 05:35 PM
Tell me this, do you think a company has a responsibility to deliver a quality product, even if this might hurt the amount of money that they make?
Yes. If you can't run your business in a manner that allows you to do this you need to go out of business.
"Lol stupid ubiclothes and their anti-theft shirt alarms, I AM NOT A THIEF, why do i have to wait for the store clerk to undo this alarm thing from the merchandise? Thats time from my life i will never get back, im boycotting this store! You know if they made a better quality shirt they would make more money, its simple!".[/B]
I wondered when you would jump on that bandwagon. Piracy is not theft. It is copyright infringement. There are bookloads of law specifically devoted to it and if you are caught doing it that is what you are prosecuted for. Not theft. If I steal a shirt, a tangible good, the owner of the shirt has lost the ability to sell that shirt. If I make a copy of a program, the owner of the program can still sell more copies. I condone neither copyright infringement nor theft, but if you are going to blather, at least get it right.
Bilge_Rat
03-10-10, 05:35 PM
We like poking the corporate goose-stepping stooge. It's amusing how much of a D-bag you prove to be. :yeah:
that's the spirit! let's stoop to personal insults, how mature, how adult...:nope:
How about a good old fashioned lynching? would you like that kiddies? they used to be very popular in the south.
I dont know why the moderators dont just lock this thread, this turning into a farce..
tomoose
03-10-10, 05:37 PM
I thought my misgivings about the game would prove groundless and I'd be jumping on board (pun intended) and rushing out to by the game. So far it looks like I dodged a bullet LOL. I wonder how SH5 sales are going so far. I'm certainly not in a rush now to buy it.:hmmm:
Bilge_Rat
03-10-10, 05:38 PM
I wondered when you would jump on that bandwagon. Piracy is not theft. It is copyright infringement. There are bookloads of law specifically devoted to it and if you are caught doing it that is what you are prosecuted for. Not theft. If I steal a shirt, a tangible good, the owner of the shirt has lost the ability to sell that shirt. If I make a copy of a program, the owner of the program can still sell more copies. I condone neither copyright infringement nor theft, but if you are going to blather, at least get it right.
piracy is theft. That much is crystal clear.
copyright infringement is totally different, that is when you have the color of a right. A pirate does'nt, he is a thief.
Catfish
03-10-10, 05:39 PM
Hello MattDizzle, Trenken, our UBI spokesman, whoever.
since you begged for it:
" ... But i am saying that the cost of making a game skyrockets in line with the ridiculous increase in computing power over time, what used to take a team of 5 or 10 a few months may take 100 people years to make. ..."
Now let' see. Computers and data mass storage are cheaper than ever. The cost of making a game "skyrockets" ? You may not be aware that with the object programming there are tons of prefabricated routines you can use, to shorten programming drastically. The real TIME you need nowadays is for historic research and making the models right ok, and maybe for a new engine, which is mostly bought and not programmed by the dev team.
And how big do you think the SH 5 team was ? 100 persons, really ? I don't think so. 1-2 years time of development - perfectly normal interval, this is how long it took years ago also.
Has anybody heard that the wages especially for programmers have risen in the last years, let alone making up for inflation :D:O::woot:
hehehe - sure manager's loans have risen, to ridiculous blown-up and thoroughly undeserved peaks.
" ... Tell me this, do you think a company has a responsibility to deliver a quality product, even if this might hurt the amount of money that they make? ..."
Yes. But do you want to say that SH 5 is a well developed product ??! UBI obviously made its money with an unfinished product, the real quality being the ideas of the dev team, not the publisher with its deadline and greed.
Yes again, i would think a company has this responsability, only that UBI failed big time here.
" ... Remember that the money you spend on a game is putting food on someones table, and if it wasnt for the assult charges that would follow i would personally kick every pirate i could find squarely in the nuts. I'm not talking about big whigs in suits, im talking about someone they hire to sweep the floors or someone to keep all the windows vista computers from crapping out, someone who takes phone calls or arranges travel for employees. ..."
What ? :doh:
" ... Stealing is a crime, and it has its victims. Screw the word "Piracy", that makes it sound cool, its theft. ..."
You are wrong. Stealing is a crime, however software "pirates" do not steal. They would not have bought the game anyway, and gamers who want to play buy their stuff anyway, too.
Downloading games is done by people who would not have bought the game or software anyway. Or, in recent cases maybe people who indeed bought software WILL once more download the same stuff from pirate sites in the future, to evade a constant online requirement, or only to be able to USE their expensively-bought F"§$%ng software at all.
This is about arrogance of software companies who do not listen to their customers, and introduce hazzles that hurt the legal customer more, than the "pirate".
(In some cases UBI indeed used a pirate's idea to be able to play their published games at all :rotfl2:).
" ... No different from slipping a shirt into your coat at the mall. Just imagine how that would go down on this forum... "Lol stupid ubiclothes and their anti-theft shirt alarms, I AM NOT A THIEF, why do i have to wait for the store clerk to undo this alarm thing from the merchandise? Thats time from my life i will never get back, im boycotting this store! You know if they made a better quality shirt they would make more money, its simple!". ..."
Apart from that you cannot compare theft in a store with software piracy this clothes thing is a good motto - see the Kaiser's new clothes, = UBI's DRM model.
I will probably print a T-shirt myself, with this:
"I survived UBIsofts DRM model
Proud member of the UBIsoft 5 percent DRM loose cable club!"
And b.t.w i have nothing against the sim, it is just this DRM what i and millions of others strongly dislike. I have sent some questions to the European parliament, because as i see it this online requirement is an intrusion that is definitely forbidden here. Same as with "Rise of Fligth".
Additionally, according to UBI's plans this is only a step on the way to paying for every second you play, which is only possible yet when being online. So this "DRM" called thingie is only stalking horse, a stepstone on generating a constant cash flow. As soon as people accept this BS of DRM the next step is making the customer pay for every second. The freedom to play freely after paying once for software is dieing in small steps.
And let me make one thing clear, the developers and programmers will see nothing of the money generated.
Greetings,
Catfish
Mondaiji
03-10-10, 05:41 PM
piracy is theft. That much is crystal clear.
copyright infringement is totally different, that is when you have the color of a right. A pirate does'nt, he is a thief.
Please enlighten me with crystal clear argument's.
Fincuan
03-10-10, 05:46 PM
piracy is theft. That much is crystal clear.
copyright infringement is totally different, that is when you have the color of a right. A pirate does'nt, he is a thief.
.
Not that clear apparently :haha:
Piracy == copyright infringement
Skullcowboy
03-10-10, 05:50 PM
piracy is theft. That much is crystal clear.
copyright infringement is totally different, that is when you have the color of a right. A pirate does'nt, he is a thief.
The color of a right?? What is that?
Copyright Infringement involves engaging in one of the practices that are exclusively reserved for a copyright owner, without a license to do so.
This is what pirates, or anyone who makes an unauthorized copy of a movie, a song, a program, a photo, a book, etc etc, is guilty of.
jwilliams
03-10-10, 05:55 PM
piracy is theft. That much is crystal clear.
copyright infringement is totally different, that is when you have the color of a right. A pirate does'nt, he is a thief.
Piracy is Copyright Infringement.
The copyright infringement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement) of software (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software) (often referred to as software piracy) refers to several practices which involve the unauthorized copying of computer software
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_piracy
Faamecanic
03-10-10, 06:03 PM
Gabe Newell of Valve destroys your argument in one short interview on piracy, and how DRM only creates more pirates:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87pevh2Q0hg#t=3m30s
^^^This^^^ "What we saw more and more is that piracy is the result of BAD SERVICE ON THE PART OF GAME COMPANIES" - Gabe
When companies like Ubi and EASports continue to release garbage... piracy goes up.
Whats sad is those companies then either rush the next release to market because they dont have the revenue forcasted to support a long dev period (Case and point SH3, Sh4, now SH5) OR they stop the franchise all together and blame the poor sales on the market not being there (MADDEN FOOTBALL.... for cripes sakes how can they say this is a "niche" market?!).
I HATE piracy. I LOVE to buy my games and support the devs that work so hard on them and create a game that I can immerse myself into and forget my REAL world.
Instead of piracy I just dont buy the game...period...end.
Nordmann
03-10-10, 06:43 PM
Instead of piracy I just dont buy the game...period...end.
Agreed. I have bought and paid for all the games in my collection, always have, always will. If Ubi insist on using OSP, then I will insist on avoiding their games completely. As far as I'm concerned, there are others far more worthy of my time and money.
It is a pity that some people are turning to shadier methods to play the game, but for those who have purchased, only to find they cannot play because of the OSP, it is excusable. There are no such excuses for those who have not legally bought the game.
quantumpawn
03-10-10, 07:21 PM
I, too, hate piracy. But an invasive DRM that hurts legitimate paying customers and does not stop piracy, but instead encourages it, comes in a close second place. :hmmm:
Robin Hood also was theft :yep:
Sailor Steve
03-10-10, 07:52 PM
Of course problems exist but this forum is no more a fair representation of the silent hunter community than Fox news is of american politics and journalism. Its a self-feeding machine of rage and peer gratification, the perfect example of preaching to the choir, any dissenting voices are shot down as interns and idiots. DRM DRM DRM! UBI UBI UBI! OUTRAGE AND BOYCOTT.
I'm not showing rage or preaching to anyone. And dissenting voices are usually argued with, not "shot down as interns and idiots". But you didn't just disagree, you started off this thread telling everyone they didn't know what they were talking about and needed you to explain it to us.
Do you think I don't have a right to not buy the game, nor a right to complain about the fact that I'm not allowed to play it because UBIsoft said so?
Ok guys i'll make this as simple as i can.
That kind of start is not an invitation to a discussion; it's a challenge, pure and simple. You can preach if you want, but when you do you know at the start what the reaction is going to be, and you can't hide behind crying about people shooting you down.
I'm beginning to agree with the guys who think you are Trenken, posting under a new name.
Ducimus
03-10-10, 08:00 PM
Gabe Newell of Valve destroys your argument in one short interview on piracy, and how DRM only creates more pirates:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87pevh2Q0hg#t=3m30s
QFE
cappy70
03-10-10, 08:08 PM
Mattdizzle: Answer Sailor Steve's post first, please.:)
Second,,this is a community of fans of Subsim's (among other kind of sims) and with some respect what one want to do with your money you must be able to do a "selection" when it comes to singleplayer, i.e. singleplayer through a constant server?, NO I own the game and play when I want to and not when a Server tell me to that: Now it is working.
I was testing a "DRM game" way before SH5 was out and it had some real issues with online connection all the time when it came to s t a b i l i t y online and be able to access the game 100%.
I've always been against for example these MMO games where you first pay a sum of money and then have to cont' to pay to play more and being dependent on the connection and also when Multi is free with many other games.
Now this has come to Single-player as well, sadly.
Single player is that I choose when,how,where I want to play and NOT through my "neighbourghs" server!!
If you buy a book you must go over to your neighbourghs house to read it and if he's not at home; you don't read!!!
Why is Bioshock 2 just doing fine with their 1-time-DRM?? Works for them.
Nah,,this is just another "starforce" issue and I bet UBI will drop it and see that are other approaches to fight off piracy, for sometime.
P.S. Did you se that I "DRM'ed" you Mattdizzle at the top: I told you to answer Sailor Steve's post first otherwise: No connection.
gonzlor
03-10-10, 08:10 PM
Personally i'm okay with the DRM stuff, If i spent X years working HARD on my software i'd hate it to be stolen on the internet too.
I am disapointed though in the state SH3/4/5 so far have been released in, I secretly hoped SH5 would release in a pretty good state considering the previous few were buggy but deep inside I half expected the features not to work or not even be there, Which is the case for SH5.
I can only play along getting annoyed everytime I see something I don't like, or cop a bug I remember fixed in a previous SH game, I expect in the coming months things will come right with patch 1.2 or 1.3 or even 1.4?
Good times ahead with modders too making the game the way we always wanted it!
Mondaiji
03-10-10, 08:15 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87pevh2Q0hg#t=3m30s
Just saw this interview for the first time and i must say that the last part i would love to see. Now that could give the right ppl a real chance to make something great and get something in return.
tonschk
03-10-10, 08:15 PM
I'm ok with DRM. :up:
Me too :DL , bought the SH5 DVD last week and so far no problem with the DRM
to all you guys who are OK with DRM: wait until you'll get locked out of the game for the weekend; your "OK with DRM" attitude will change quickly as did mine... online DRM is an evil that needs to be removed
Juliano
03-10-10, 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by mookiemookie http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1304851#post1304851)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87pevh2Q0hg#t=3m30s
Wow, totally agree with his statement
NefariousKoel
03-10-10, 10:09 PM
to all you guys who are OK with DRM: wait until you'll get locked out of the game for the weekend; your "OK with DRM" attitude will change quickly as did mine... online DRM is an evil that needs to be removed
Unfortunately, the small amount of draconian DRM defenders believe that if they've had no problems, nobody else does either. Those other people are viewed as just misinformed ignorant reactionaries (as pointed out in the OP).
Until it happens to them. Rare is the one who still defends it after they've been bitten.
NefariousKoel
03-10-10, 10:19 PM
that's the spirit! let's stoop to personal insults, how mature, how adult...:nope:
How about a good old fashioned lynching? would you like that kiddies? they used to be very popular in the south.
I dont know why the moderators dont just lock this thread, this turning into a farce..
I didn't quite say everything I wanted to about Trenken or whatever his name is. Telling people to "keep their bitching in the 20+ other DRM threads" warrants more.
And your reference to Southerners lynching people is hardly a metaphor without ridiculous, biased, insult. Perhaps you should take your buddy, the ex-Starforce employee, and fill out hate crime charges. :wah:
sabretwo
03-10-10, 10:36 PM
It's also predicated on the absurd claim that "90% of the copies are pirated." This claim is meaningless. The only number that matters are lost sales. What % of pirated copies would have sold in the absence of a pirated version. My guess is that it's a vanishingly small %.
:rock: I've tried making this point several times in these threads.
How many pirates does anyone really think are now buying the game versus the number of people now infuriated with UBI or unable to play their games owing to difficulty with accessing the internet, etc.
Eightbit
03-10-10, 11:39 PM
:rock: I've tried making this point several times in these threads.
How many pirates does anyone really think are now buying the game versus the number of people now infuriated with UBI or unable to play their games owing to difficulty with accessing the internet, etc.
haha yea and if it hadn't been pirated. How many more angry "i want a refund" you think we would see here?
robbo180265
03-11-10, 12:01 AM
Unfortunately, the small amount of draconian DRM defenders believe that if they've had no problems, nobody else does either. Those other people are viewed as just misinformed ignorant reactionaries (as pointed out in the OP).
Until it happens to them. Rare is the one who still defends it after they've been bitten.
You also have to remember that the people that DRM really affects are unable to argue here or on any other forum. I'm talking about people who have no net connection and therfore are totally excluded from playing the game.
blackdog_kt
03-11-10, 12:04 AM
No different from slipping a shirt into your coat at the mall. Just imagine how that would go down on this forum... "Lol stupid ubiclothes and their anti-theft shirt alarms, I AM NOT A THIEF, why do i have to wait for the store clerk to undo this alarm thing from the merchandise? Thats time from my life i will never get back, im boycotting this store! You know if they made a better quality shirt they would make more money, its simple!".
What you describe is equal to a one-time activation. The clerk extracts the little metal thing that makes the detector buzz as you are giving him the cash, you take your t-shirt and never have to worry about it again.
UBI's method is more like you're stuck with the little metal plate in your T-shirt for life, so that the T-shirt shop's patrol car can verify it's yours at random points in time, plus you can't do anything about it.
Your friends make fun of the bulge under your T-shirt in the back of your neck, it itches and annoys you, you don't like the feeling of cold metal on your skin when you dress for work early in the morning and you can't go anywhere near a metal detector without giving a false alarm and everybody looking at you in a strange way, but of course we know it's not the fault of the T-shirt seller, it's the fault of terrorists and gangsters who made us install metal detectors everywhere and we jump with fear everytime they go off :har:
And all this so that the T-shirt store's patrol car can come along, stop you from whatever you're doing at the moment (work, going to the movies, having a cup of cofee with your girlfriend), demand of you to prove you didn't steal the T-shirt and expect you to show them the little metal plate, all at random times and however often they would like. Oh, God forbid if they barge in your home one Sunday morning, find you snugging into bed with your girlfriend and she happens to be wearing it. Stupid women, always getting us in trouble like this after a night out for meal, movie and hot sexxing :haha:
You see, you don't own the T-shirt, you own a license to use it and they can revoke it at will if you give it to a friend as a present, let your little son wear it as you snap pictures of him with your camera or ship it off to a humanitarian aid mission when you don't want it anymore.
Tell you what, if you subject yourself to this for a month and prove to everyone here that you really did it, i'll go out and buy SH5 in its current state ;)
jwilliams
03-11-10, 12:34 AM
:haha:
Hehe, you forgot to metion that if the patrol car brakes down, that you must surrender your t-shirt to them, even if your still wearing it, even if it inconvenent for you. Until they fix their car. And if they cant fix there car then you never get your t-shirt back.
:O:
DJSatane
03-11-10, 03:22 AM
To the original poster, you do realize ubi never cared about making sims to begin with, sh3 and 4 were buggy as hell and ubi always cut off support early not caring about the state of games were left in.
UBI has a lot of excuses but they can not say they ever gave a real shot at single game in silent hunter series with proper support and resources to have a fine state of the product reached. every game in this series could of been great if there was more time given to its development/testing/support.
Instead of putting this pointless DRM on a buggy product with little hope of support how about charge small amount of money every few months to continue playing sh5 and use that money towards providing continious support and expanding the game. Oh wait this is UBI they dont care.
JScones
03-11-10, 04:36 AM
^^^This^^^ "What we saw more and more is that piracy is the result of BAD SERVICE ON THE PART OF GAME COMPANIES" - Gabe
When companies like Ubi and EASports continue to release garbage... piracy goes up.
Whats sad is those companies then either rush the next release to market because they dont have the revenue forcasted to support a long dev period (Case and point SH3, Sh4, now SH5) OR they stop the franchise all together and blame the poor sales on the market not being there (MADDEN FOOTBALL.... for cripes sakes how can they say this is a "niche" market?!).
YES!
Unfortunately some people seem so easily influenced into thinking that everything is the fault of pirates, they fail to see the root cause.
Ubisoft profits have been going down for a few years and they are forecasting a loss this year, but don't take my word for it. Their financial statements are online and if they lie in those, company excutives and the auditors are going to jail.
Mattdrizzle, I don't know why you are wasting your time in this thread. If you really want to know how the so called "sub sim community" feels, look right here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=164177
60% of "the community" say SH5 is GOOD.
and even more important is this "poll":
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/bestselling-pc-download-games-of-the-week-purchasers-unperturbed-by-protective-measures-1918550.html
The rest is just meaningless background noise.
Erm, those links point merely to subsets of greater audiences and have no correlation to overall game sales or opinion (one can respond merely by posting a comment such as "95% of the US amazon community thinks the game sux").
Statistics can be conveniently misconstrued to argue any point.
DMarkwick
03-11-10, 05:04 AM
Personally i'm okay with the DRM stuff, If i spent X years working HARD on my software i'd hate it to be stolen on the internet too.
I agree with the sentiment :) but, if that DRM stuff turned out to be entirely useless and ineffective, and in all probability was responsible for arguably more sales lost than piracy alone, would you still be OK with it?
:)
For those who know everything about everything, first just do your own homework....
PIRATES:
1. PREORDER a game if it is worth playing, like Battlefield Bad Company 2, or in case of JUST CAUSE 2, because they released a demo
2. BUY games that are WORTH buying, like Mass Effect 2
3. TEST downloaded game from torrents, rapidshare, usenet etc to see if the game is worth 50$. If it is, it is a buy. If not, it is uninstalled faster than it was installed
4. PIRATE unfinished games and games that are produced by companies only pursuing quick cash! The way I see it, Ubisoft just signed it's death warrant.
No, they will not play it, but they will pirate it till death!
5. Not every pirate has money, but almost 45% of total pirates actually BUY AND SUPPORT games that are good!
6. ENCOURAGE other people to buy something if it is worth the money and good product.
In their NFO file states: If you like the game, buy it! We did. Support the game developers!
Notice:
1. If you like the game, buy it!
2. We did.
3. Support the game developers!
And pirates are the problem? Yeah, suits are treating you like animals, and you are thinking WE are the problem? It's all OUR fault just because THEY say so? Who ever heard OUR side of the story? Who ever heard what WE think? Who ever considered to challenge official word? Who ever thought if this is a good product or bad? Who ever thought if this is worth that much money?
Yeah, we pirates are mass murderers, rapists, thieves, drug dealers, and they are saints...
EDUCATE your self on this matter by seeing it FOR YOURSELF, not believing as someone is telling you before you VERIFY it as a fact!
:damn:
/rant
For all I know, Hitler would be pissed, but that would be too much. We need another movie...:up:
Bilge_Rat
03-11-10, 08:10 AM
Statistics can be conveniently misconstrued to argue any point.
Exactly my point
Bilge_Rat
03-11-10, 08:26 AM
I didn't quite say everything I wanted to about Trenken or whatever his name is. Telling people to "keep their bitching in the 20+ other DRM threads" warrants more.
And your reference to Southerners lynching people is hardly a metaphor without ridiculous, biased, insult. Perhaps you should take your buddy, the ex-Starforce employee, and fill out hate crime charges. :wah:
I may have gone overboard last night with my comments. This forum is turning from a subsim forum to a Ubisoft DRM forum and I am getting tired of seeing the same discussions over and over again.
Just so we are clear, I tolerate Uplay because I have no choice, not because I like it. I would rather it was not there.
However resorting to personal insults is not what this forum is all about, unless we want this to turn into a Kindergarden like the Zoo referred to as the Ubi forum. If we want newbies to adhere to the Subsim standards, its essential that longstanding members like you and I set the example.
Skullcowboy
03-11-10, 10:18 AM
I may have gone overboard last night with my comments. This forum is turning from a subsim forum to a Ubisoft DRM forum and I am getting tired of seeing the same discussions over and over again.
Just so we are clear, I tolerate Uplay because I have no choice, not because I like it. I would rather it was not there.
However resorting to personal insults is not what this forum is all about, unless we want this to turn into a Kindergarden like the Zoo referred to as the Ubi forum. If we want newbies to adhere to the Subsim standards, its essential that longstanding members like you and I set the example.
Respectfully, Bilge_Rat, I submit to you that you DO have a choice. All of us, as consumers do. That's kinda what lights me up sometimes is when companies and people like the OP try to convince us that we don't have a choice and we should just put up with it and give em the money. And I think that's why they try so hard to make us look like pirates or fringe activists trying to stir up trouble.
I am neither. I am a dedicated gamer who spends $100's per year on games and about a grand every other year upgrading my PC.
Yea, I'm one of those guys. Just ask my wife. :)
But back to it. You do have a choice. And I'll never rank on you no matter which direction you go.
Of course we all have a choice. If nobody bought DRM/OSP games, the game companies would dump it and find another form of protection.
unfortunately that's in theory only.
Iridium
03-11-10, 10:35 AM
Of course we all have a choice. If nobody bought DRM/OSP games, the game companies would dump it and find another form of protection.
... and would blame the lack of sales on piracy rather than their own poor development, leading them instead to stop making PC games in the laughable belief that only PC games get pirated. Because, of course, how could the publishers possibly be the ones doing wrong?
Exactly my point
Did you know that 75.5% of statistics are made up?
RSColonel_131st
03-11-10, 11:17 AM
... and would blame the lack of sales on piracy rather than their own poor development, leading them instead to stop making PC games in the laughable belief that only PC games get pirated. Because, of course, how could the publishers possibly be the ones doing wrong?
Well, in this case they shot themself in the foot: As long as UBI claims that OSP has not been cracked, they can't blame pirates for bad sales figures.
Irichanu
03-11-10, 11:26 AM
For those who know everything about everything, first just do your own homework....
[something here]
QTF
This is what I have been always trying to say.
MattDizzle
03-11-10, 11:48 AM
Well, in this case they shot themself in the foot: As long as UBI claims that OSP has not been cracked, they can't blame pirates for bad sales figures.
Did they ever claim it was not cracked?
Look guys, im not trying to troll, im trying to say that the amount of complaining in this forum is ridiculous, and i'd love the chance to talk about the game without sifting through 10 boycott ubi threads, thats all. Cant we all just take a chill pill and wait a few weeks for the kinks to be ironed out? This is a brand new game. Personally Starforce was way worse on my computer, and i havent had any problems whatsoever with the DRM, thats not to say that you have not, but if it works fine for me, why not you?
I'll tone down or even stop arguing in this thread if thats what the community wants, also how can i prove i'm not whatever guy you guys were talking about? I'm also available for Al Qaida trial defense and Hitler Argentinia sneaking, just to complete the "Make everyone mad" trifecta :oops:
Did they ever claim it was not cracked?
Funny how you speak for 'they'...
Look guys, im not trying to troll, im trying to say that the amount of complaining in this forum is ridiculous
Why is it ridiculous? Maybe there's good reason for the complaining.
and i'd love the chance to talk about the game without sifting through 10 boycott ubi threads
There isn't any boycott threads here.
Personally Starforce was way worse on my computer, and i havent had any problems whatsoever with the DRM, thats not to say that you have not, but if it works fine for me, why not you?
I never had any problems with Starforce, and I can't play SH5 at all because of my net connection.
I'll tone down or even stop arguing in this thread if thats what the community wants, also how can i prove i'm not whatever guy you guys were talking about? I'm also available for Al Qaida trial defense and Hitler Argentinia sneaking, just to complete the "Make everyone mad" trifecta :oops:
If you walk and talk like a duck, people are going to call you a duck.
Faamecanic
03-11-10, 12:04 PM
Did you know that 75.5% of statistics are made up?
and the 24.5% that arent are all liars :yeah:
Faamecanic
03-11-10, 12:11 PM
QFE
Ducimus.... your signature line is QFT...and a GREAT LMFAO to boot :salute:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5lQ-9reiLU
Sailor Steve
03-11-10, 12:12 PM
...and i'd love the chance to talk about the game without sifting through 10 boycott ubi threads...
Can you show me these ten threads you have to sift through? All the Anti-DRM threads were consolidated into one several days ago, and any new ones anyone starts are either locked or moved into that one.
I see that you have posted in several other threads, and honestly in relation the threads themselves, so I'll refrain from any more negative comments, for the time being. On the other hand, have you posted in the 'Bugs' thread? Or the 'Review' thread? Or most importantly the 'Introduce Yourself' thread?
Faamecanic
03-11-10, 12:28 PM
You said your piece Steve.... :timeout:
You of all people in this forum do NOT have to defend yourself.. :salute:
MattDizzle
03-11-10, 12:48 PM
Funny how you speak for 'they'...
I dont speak for anyone but myself: I just dont remember seeing any official announcement of "This DRM has worked 100% of the time and there have been no issues". I havent seen any issues, i know 2 other people with this game and they say they haven't had any as well. So thats 300% reliability on my end, If it was so broken wouldnt one of us have had a problem by now? Even a lost save game? Anything?
So being against the popular opinion is trolling now? And i'd still like to see why you attribute me so some long gone (Presumibly unpopular) member, as if only one person would be stupid/dickish enough to defend this evil DRM monster, and that the valient subsim internet discussion boards are united in their rightous indignation and resolve. Cant my IP be checked or something if this person was banned? Being accused of being someone else is the only thing i'm annoyed with so far, and i am not angry at any one of you, honestly.
les green01
03-11-10, 01:59 PM
what you going do when they take the servers down and you cant play and they will take the servers down least with sh1 to uboat missions we could play for years and get our money worth and enjoy the games,and personly i dont buy it when they said they are not making money if they wasnt making money they wouldnt do another game,I dont mind doing a online verifcation one time online to play a game that i pay for.and way ubi been releasing half done games they should pay the modders for making the games better.
MattDizzle
03-11-10, 02:09 PM
I'm pretty sure Sh3 and SH4 used to have DRM as well, usually they remove it with a patch after a certain amount of time, right?
martes86
03-11-10, 02:47 PM
I'm pretty sure Sh3 and SH4 used to have DRM as well, usually they remove it with a patch after a certain amount of time, right?
Not really. First of all, neither SH3 or 4 had DRM, they had a traditional anti-copy scheme. And second, there was never an "official" patch to remove those systems, specially in the case of SH3 and Starforce. :nope:
Faamecanic
03-11-10, 03:00 PM
I'm pretty sure Sh3 and SH4 used to have DRM as well, usually they remove it with a patch after a certain amount of time, right?
NO....SH3 DRM (starforce) screwed up so many computers (CDROM drives stopped working) Ubi removed it because of the Ticked off customers.... seems UBI didnt learn thier lesson. In fact a MAJOR selling point Ubi used with SH 4 is that It DID NOT have the same DRM as SH 3.
Edit: martes is right.... Starforce was not a DRM but a copy protection scheme (a piss poor one at that) that installed a program you couldnt see or manually uninstall. Ubi..while not officially removing it...did distribute the link to the program to uninstall Starforce, and promised the next SH would not have it.
MattDizzle
03-11-10, 03:05 PM
I remember SH3 Messing up when it detected my virtual drives back in the day, Today i have it (GWX3) on my laptop and it doesnt conflict any more.
I confess to being completely wrong on this front, but i cant imagine that all copies of Sh5 will become worthless data when the servers are pulled, im sure they will think of something. All anger aside do you honestly see that happening?
Sailor Steve
03-11-10, 03:09 PM
I think (hope) they'll do the right thing in time, but the whole concept is wrong at its heart. A lot of us can't play the game at all.
MattDizzle
03-11-10, 03:16 PM
So what makes for the total reliability on my end and the end of everyone i know? I honestly cannot fathom why we would have two completely differant experiances with the same exact program. I'm only arguing for the concept of the always-online DRM, failings do not allow paying customers to play their game are of course unforgivable, but i dont think writing off a promising program and concept is needed for a few teething problems. Again, on paper it looks like a great idea, and it works fine for me.
If it matters:
Nvidia 8600GT 512
2.8GHZ Pentium D dual core 64 bit
4 Gigs of ram, 3 usable (Thanks Vista 2, aka 7)
Windows 7 64 bit ultimate edition.
Sh5 Cheap edition: Bought on steam 2 days after release.
Comcast Digital Cable: South florida ISP.
jwilliams
03-11-10, 03:17 PM
but i cant imagine that all copies of Sh5 will become worthless data when the servers are pulled, im sure they will think of something. All anger aside do you honestly see that happening?
Proberly not. But Ubi have given no reasurance. When asked if they would remove the online feature if the servers go down. They said "We do not plan to turn off the servers. but should that ever happen we plan to release a patch to allow offline play". When asked do you promise to release the patch, their answer was "Thats the plan". So it seams they avoided commiting to it. Doesnt exactly give us any reasurance does it? :nope:
Take curtain Digital music stores that had DRM on their music. those server have now been turned off. and people that downloaded music from those stores can no longer listen to the music that they have bought.:nope:
Jimbuna
03-11-10, 03:17 PM
I remember SH3 Messing up when it detected my virtual drives back in the day, Today i have it (GWX3) on my laptop and it doesnt conflict any more.
I confess to being completely wrong on this front, but i cant imagine that all copies of Sh5 will become worthless data when the servers are pulled, im sure they will think of something. All anger aside do you honestly see that happening?
I honestly hope so, but tbh it wouldn't have been necessary at all if it wasn't for the pirate fraternity out there.
What saddens me is the fact that the measures taken are no longer sufficient which begs the question....why bother in the first place?
jwilliams
03-11-10, 03:19 PM
So what makes for the total reliability on my end and the end of everyone i know? I honestly cannot fathom why we would have two completely differant experiances with the same exact program. I'm only arguing for the concept of the always-online DRM, failings do not allow paying customers to play their game are of course unforgivable, but i dont think writing off a promising program and concept is needed for a few teething problems. Again, on paper it looks like a great idea, and it works fine for me.
If it matters:
Nvidia 8600GT
2.8GHZ Pentium D dual core 64 bit
4 Gigs of ram, 3 usable (Thanks Vista 2, aka 7)
Windows 7 64 bit ultimate edition.
Comcast Digital Cable: South florida ISP.
Because Ubi have more than 1 server. prehaps you have been lucky and the server that your connected to isnt the one thats had the DoS (be it DDoS (as Ubi claim) or VIPDoS) Attack.
MattDizzle
03-11-10, 03:34 PM
What saddens me is the fact that the measures taken are no longer sufficient which begs the question....why bother in the first place?
Damn, this hitler guy seems to have taken over all of europe, destroying nations much larger and more powerful than our own, why bother fighting?
Sometimes when facing evil people, difficult, far-fetched and unlikely efforts need to be made in the name of the law. :rock: (yes, Pirates = Hitler) Get back to me in a month or two, if the server issues are not taken care of by than for this again, brand new online system (these problems are nothing compared to the 2003-2004 Public Steam beta) i will admit defeat. No amount of testing can recreate a public launch, and problems are bound to pop up, All i was suggesting is that a forum like this is not an accurate measure of the problems of the greater, un-registered subsim community, and that the complaining was getting a little extreme
Heres the only way i can prove im not a douche troll and that i want to be a productive member of the subsim community:
Mods, i've gotten my point across as best i could, please lock this thread.
Juliano
03-11-10, 03:51 PM
Wont modding the campaign render the whole DRM useless??? :hmmm:
I mean, the only thing keeping pirates form playing the game is the fact that the campaign does not work the way it should if cracked and not connected to UBI. I´m pretty sure once the mods are released, almost nobody will play the stock campaign.
So, what´s the point in UBI maintaining expensive servers for the sake of stoping piracy (as they claim)? I´m almost sure the headstaff there got stoned or something.
Also, I doubt there will be LOTS of patches, I actualy think UBI released the game as it is hoping to get "free work" form the modder comunity. At some point, patches will not be released anymore and there will be no more PRATICAL use to be connected (in costumers point of view). Sure, there still will be the "you can install the game in X number of PCs and use your save games" (I dont realy care for this feature, I can allways copy my savegames to a pendrive and carry it with me anywhere I want, so it´s kinda redundant).
I really think this whole DRM thing is pointless. But it´s only my opinion.
MattDizzle
03-11-10, 04:00 PM
Most people do not mod their games, most people do not go on the internet and talk about games on forums. There is no expectation for anti-piracy measures to be 100% effective or undefeatable, that should not be expected of a software. Its like blaming the police for a murder because it wasnt effective enough to stop it, which i suppose some people would do.
Again mods, lock this thread, i wont shut up until you do :)
Skullcowboy
03-11-10, 04:02 PM
Damn, this hitler guy seems to have taken over all of europe, destroying nations much larger and more powerful than our own, why bother fighting?
Sometimes when facing evil people, difficult, far-fetched and unlikely efforts need to be made in the name of the law. :rock: (yes, Pirates = Hitler) Get back to me in a month or two, if the server issues are not taken care of by than for this again, brand new online system (these problems are nothing compared to the 2003-2004 Public Steam beta) i will admit defeat. No amount of testing can recreate a public launch, and problems are bound to pop up, All i was suggesting is that a forum like this is not an accurate measure of the problems of the greater, un-registered subsim community, and that the complaining was getting a little extreme
Heres the only way i can prove im not a douche troll and that i want to be a productive member of the subsim community:
Mods, i've gotten my point across as best i could, please lock this thread.
OH MY GOD!! Really? Hitler and his ilk murdered or caused the death of MILLIONS of people and you are comparing them to a group of people who make unauthorized copies of software...that causes some financial loss, of which the actual numbers are highly questionable.
And you called my arguement ridiculous.
I´m pretty sure once the mods are released, almost nobody will play the stock campaign.
You're so wrong you don't even know it...
Crack alone does not make campaign playable, but savegame and various CFG editing does!
Pirates can play any campaign order, unlock all and even create their own....
I still have the workaround saved before ubi deleted the thread.
Google cache still has it, I believe....
Sailor Steve
03-11-10, 04:10 PM
Damn, this hitler guy seems to have taken over all of europe, destroying nations much larger and more powerful than our own, why bother fighting?
Sometimes when facing evil people, difficult, far-fetched and unlikely efforts need to be made in the name of the law. :rock: (yes, Pirates = Hitler)
I think you have that backwards. Hitler = tyranny and oppression, not piracy. And one definition of oppression is "cruel or unjust use of power or authority."
And justifying "unlikely efforts...in the name of the law" is the way tyrannies are formed in the first place.
So those of us who believe in freedom will keep fighting efforts to take it away, even when it's something as small as being told we can't play a game unless we bow to the oppressors.:rock:
Jimbuna
03-11-10, 04:13 PM
So what makes for the total reliability on my end and the end of everyone i know? I honestly cannot fathom why we would have two completely differant experiances with the same exact program. I'm only arguing for the concept of the always-online DRM, failings do not allow paying customers to play their game are of course unforgivable, but i dont think writing off a promising program and concept is needed for a few teething problems. Again, on paper it looks like a great idea, and it works fine for me.
If it matters:
Nvidia 8600GT 512
2.8GHZ Pentium D dual core 64 bit
4 Gigs of ram, 3 usable (Thanks Vista 2, aka 7)
Windows 7 64 bit ultimate edition.
Sh5 Cheap edition: Bought on steam 2 days after release.
Comcast Digital Cable: South florida ISP.
I honestly hope so, but tbh it wouldn't have been necessary at all if it wasn't for the pirate fraternity out there.
What saddens me is the fact that the measures taken are no longer sufficient which begs the question....why bother in the first place?
Damn, this hitler guy seems to have taken over all of europe, destroying nations much larger and more powerful than our own, why bother fighting?
Sometimes when facing evil people, difficult, far-fetched and unlikely efforts need to be made in the name of the law. :rock: (yes, Pirates = Hitler) Get back to me in a month or two, if the server issues are not taken care of by than for this again, brand new online system (these problems are nothing compared to the 2003-2004 Public Steam beta) i will admit defeat. No amount of testing can recreate a public launch, and problems are bound to pop up, All i was suggesting is that a forum like this is not an accurate measure of the problems of the greater, un-registered subsim community, and that the complaining was getting a little extreme
Heres the only way i can prove im not a douche troll and that i want to be a productive member of the subsim community:
Mods, i've gotten my point across as best i could, please lock this thread.
WTF!!...the above post was actually meant to support your earlier post :hmmm:
http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/4986/hitlersmileythumbnailiz3.jpg
Juliano
03-11-10, 04:17 PM
You're so wrong you don't even know it...
Crack alone does not make campaign playable, but savegame and various CFG editing does!
Pirates can play any campaign order, unlock all and even create their own....
I still have the workaround saved before ubi deleted the thread.
Google cache still has it, I believe....
Oh well, sorry, just expressing my opinions :oops:
Anyway, as I understand, as soon the campaign file is modded, the campaign changes, the values changes, and there will be no more link from the actual modded campaign to UBI. So, there will be no more "triggers" (like the filling bar thing that I heard of) activated by UBI signal/sync. That will erease the need of editing savegames.
So, what´s the point of DRM once the CAMPAIGN is modded?
Ok, many people will play the stock game, but if theese same people realy like the game, they will search for ways of enhancing it and will start using mods. It´s a natural thing.
Sorry if I cannot explain myself further, my english is still rusty:salute:
Faamecanic
03-11-10, 04:18 PM
Personally Starforce was way worse on my computer, and i havent had any problems whatsoever with the DRM, thats not to say that you have not, but if it works fine for me, why not you?
Starforce was not noticable to me.... but if they would have had a DRM that required constant internet connection back when SH3 was released I would have had to wait almost 2 yrs to play it (and that was because I MOVED to a place where I had a decent ISP).
You see at that time I was a slave to the only ISP in town (other than dial up) and they so overloaded the local neighborhood node (was told by a tech that 120 people MAX should be on it...there were over 300) my internet connection was good for "off peak times" (read between 3am - 11am local) only.
Ubi's DRM is probably the WORST DRM scheme in history. And it isnt right to assume 80% of people have internet connection, so screw the other 20%. Especially folks like Sailor Steve that have been fans and supporters for many more years than I have been on this forum.
Oh well, sorry, just expressing my opinions :oops:
Anyway, as I understand, as soon the campaign file is modded, the campaign changes, the values changes, and there will be no more link from the actual modded campaign to UBI. So, there will be no more "triggers" (like the filling bar thing that I heard of) activated by UBI signal/sync. That will erease the need of editing savegames.
So, what´s the point of DRM once the CAMPAIGN is modded?
Ok, many people will play the stock game, but if theese same people realy like the game, they will search for ways of enhancing it and will start using mods. It´s a natural thing.
Sorry if I cannot explain myself further, my english is still rusty:salute:
Actually, bar filling is also edited so it is working, hence you can play campaign from start to finish.
What DRM does is that check game ID and disables write-protect and savegame upload/download. You can save game locally with crack and write-protect is avoided by editing values yourself.
Patches will be cracked [1.1 was already as soon as it was launched] so, really, what is the point?
I don't expect UBI do admit defeat, but hurting it's customers because of someone's ego is.... unprofessional? Unethical? What was the word...:06:
Pilot37
03-11-10, 04:27 PM
I could almost forgive a DRM problem if it wasn't for the fact that everything else is half baked. This makes Unbisoft the Con-men rather than the Pirates!
Pirates spoil things for others but the person comparing them to Hitler is a really worrying individual. Think he should stop and think about that. Being a software pirate and putting most of Europe, including Germany under the Jack Boot are not really comparable.
Anyway, before Ubisoft get all holy with us, what about the crime of selling faulty software...legalised crime I guess you might say.
Juliano
03-11-10, 04:29 PM
Actually, bar filling is also edited so it is working, hence you can play campaign from start to finish.
What DRM does is that check game ID and disables write-protect and savegame upload/download. You can save game locally with crack and write-protect is avoided by editing values yourself.
Patches will be cracked [1.1 was already as soon as it was launched] so, really, what is the point?
I don't expect UBI do admit defeat, but hurting it's customers because of someone's ego is.... unprofessional? Unethical? What was the word...:06:
...Weasels? :har:
But what I mean was that when the campaign gets eventualy modded, there will be no more need to edit the files like they are doing right now in order to play. I guess...
Faamecanic
03-11-10, 04:30 PM
Well said Pilot...
I could forgive the DRM if Ubi would have spent the time needed to release a Sim that only needed one patch to address minor issues.
Not the half baked crap like SH5 (or 4 for that matter).
Substandard release + Horrible DRM = EPIC UBI FAIL.
MattDizzle has nothing better to do than still a week later defend the copy protection for some 'fictional boats', now comparing users to Hitler. Well Matt, I think UBI is Hitler, Stalin, Ghengis Khan, Kissinger, Nixon, Reagan, Bush 1 and 2, Blair, Thatcher, Teddy Roosevelt, Pol Pot, Pinochet, Papa Doc, Mobutu, Adam Sandler, Paulie Shore all in one!
Hows that for evil!
Remember: everytime you launch Silent Hunter 5 or Assassins Creed 2 with the DRM, a kitten dies!
Sailor Steve
03-11-10, 04:40 PM
I could forgive the DRM if Ubi would have spent the time needed to release a Sim that only needed one patch to address minor issues.
I couldn't. :D
Juliano
03-11-10, 04:48 PM
MattDizzle has nothing better to do than still a week later defend the copy protection for some 'fictional boats', now comparing users to Hitler. Well Matt, I think UBI is Hitler, Stalin, Ghengis Khan, Kissinger, Nixon, Reagan, Bush 1 and 2, Blair, Thatcher, Teddy Roosevelt, Pol Pot, Pinochet, Papa Doc, Mobutu, Adam Sandler, Paulie Shore all in one!
Hows that for evil!
Remember: everytime you launch Silent Hunter 5 or Assassins Creed 2 with the DRM, a kitten dies!
:o:o:o
:har::har::har::har::har:
:o:o:o
:har::har::har::har::har:
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/9849/atfirstlolrp0.jpg
drtechno
03-11-10, 05:02 PM
MattDizzle has nothing better to do than still a week later defend the copy protection for some 'fictional boats', now comparing users to Hitler. Well Matt, I think UBI is Hitler, Stalin, Ghengis Khan, Kissinger, Nixon, Reagan, Bush 1 and 2, Blair, Thatcher, Teddy Roosevelt, Pol Pot, Pinochet, Papa Doc, Mobutu, Adam Sandler, Paulie Shore all in one!
Hows that for evil!
Just replace Clinton for Reagan, Obama for Thatcher, and Arafat for Blair and you will be on the right track :ping:
Valantine
03-11-10, 05:17 PM
My main gripe with this always connected requirement is that I am being forced to have my connection always up, and stable, or else the game cannot be run/shuts down.
I have no issue with code authentication and online activation/certification on installation - I buy my games legitimately and for the most part; on release day: Every silent hunter since SH2 I have bought on release day with the exception of 5 because of the constantly online requirement.
To me this is a bully boy tactic on Ubi's part that in their attempts to stop "piracy" they are infact screwing with their paying customers. Although it wasn't as severe the debacle with SH3 and Starforce was quite annoying as the game would not install on my old machine due to the drive I had, in the end I downloaded and installed a "pirate" copy of the game with starforce removed with the CD serial that came in my purchased copy that couldn't install off the disc so that I could play the game I had purchsed on release day.
Does this make me a pirate? No of course not as Ubi got my £39.99 for the game. Did Ubi DRM stop me playing a game I had bought? Almost, but there was a work around, not one I was particularly comfortable with but it was the only way short of buying a new DVD drive.
My point here is that DRM's have a way of victimising legitimate customers whilst in the grand scheme of things are only being a nusance to "pirates" for a short time until it is cracked meaning once it has been cracked they no longer suffer with the DRM issues whilst legitimate customers are forced to continue suffering in order to be legit and support the company that makes a great game.
This type of invasive DRM is a kick in the teeth for legitimate customers, this is why I will not be buying SH5 until the constantly online requirement is removed: will this mean I miss out on a great game? probably, but at the same time I am not supporting a company that promotes this type of oppression on it's own customers, voting with your wallet is all we can really do.
V
NefariousKoel
03-11-10, 06:20 PM
So what makes for the total reliability on my end and the end of everyone i know? I honestly cannot fathom why we would have two completely differant experiances with the same exact program.
This is also why you cannot fathom how your noble defense of this DRM makes you look to all the people who've had issues.
Having your head placed firmly in the sand doesn't make you noble or wise. It also makes your posts come off as trolling so don't be surprised at all the bile you get.
drtechno
03-11-10, 06:22 PM
Can we rename this thread "We have beat him into submission and he no longer defends [this idiotic] DRM" :smug:
MattDizzle
03-11-10, 07:11 PM
I didnt know it was a contest
Frederf
03-11-10, 07:52 PM
It's the Internet, everything's a contest!
Guys, give MattDrizzle a break. What he meant is that "don't stop fighting a war because don't you have complete success." Just because he happened to pick WWII as his war in his analogy doesn't make it any less apt. And he's not calling UBI "Hitler" either, in fact it would be the opposite in this case as UBI/DRM/etc are the allies and piracy is the axis.
He chose his analogy poorly because the whole Hitler thing is way too easy to be distracted (and other posters were misled and distracted away from the point). He could have used some more plain arguments like "Why don't we stop having police officers since there's always going to be some crime?" or "Why don't be stop having doctors since people are always going to get sick?"
His argument is that DRM as an anti-piracy measure still has merit even if it is not 100% effective. If 99 people crack the game and 1 is foiled by DRM then that's 1 less case of piracy than if DRM was absent.
---
THAT BEING SAID
---
Personally I think UBISoft is not naive and they have no delusions that DRM can significantly curb piracy. However DRM is an excellent anti-consumer-rights scheme that can be easily marketed as anti-piracy. Sure, you might not stop many pirates but honest consumers are far less likely to be able to engage in second hand sales (which is a consumer right being undermined). This is like the police gathering revenue from automobile tickets under the guise of public service. The ticket-able offenses aren't curbed but at least they are making cash.
Another viewpoint is that even if certain people inside UBI understand that DRM is more hurtful than helpful, they have narrow-sighted corporate policies that oblige them to engage in DRM even though it's a bad idea. The analogy would be soldiers stationed in a war-torn country's city. The fact that soldiers are there makes the locals mad and causes violence. It would be smarter to remove the soldiers but the military is obliged to add more soldiers "because it's dangerous there and it's our policy to add soldiers where it's dangerous" when a more free thinking and insightful military would decide otherwise.
OSP sucks! the main reason I won't buy it!!:down:
TwistedFemur
03-11-10, 09:25 PM
I didnt read all 14 pages, so I apologize if this has already been brought up.
one major reason for illegal cracks stems from the companies attitude of "release it now, patch it later" even if the code is broken.:down:
I didnt read all 14 pages, so I apologize if this has already been brought up.
one major reason for illegal cracks stems from the companies attitude of "release it now, patch it later" even if the code is broken.:down:Hey the code is not broken, there is none!!:har:
Skullcowboy
03-11-10, 10:21 PM
<snip>He could have used some more plain arguments like "Why don't we stop having police officers since there's always going to be some crime?" or "Why don't be stop having doctors since people are always going to get sick?"<snip>
Sorry, but I am not as generous as you in my thoughts of his analogy. He knew exactly where he was going and it was for the shock factor. When you don't have a real argument, go for the sensational. The RIAA and the MPAA are very fond of this.
Folks like him love to trot out the "But mine works great, I don't see what you are complaining about" line. Well, I don't have cancer so what's with all this research for a cure?
The very thing he claimed not to be as he whined for the thread to be closed is EXACTLY what, in fact, he is.
Ta Ta and have a GREAT day.
sabretwo
03-11-10, 11:19 PM
So what makes for the total reliability on my end and the end of everyone i know? I honestly cannot fathom why we would have two completely differant experiances with the same exact program. I'm only arguing for the concept of the always-online DRM, failings do not allow paying customers to play their game are of course unforgivable, but i dont think writing off a promising program and concept is needed for a few teething problems. Again, on paper it looks like a great idea, and it works fine for me.
Matt,
Have you played Sh5 yet while traveling on a plane accross the Atlantic? Or how about when you're on vacation at a house in the woods without Internet access? Or maybe when you're staying at a trade show in Vegas with charges up to $30 per day? or does Comcast charge you per MB like our colleagues in many places in Europe? Or have you played on a satellite connection while resting at night at a military base in Iraq?
Do you get my point yet? You and your buddies obviously don't play on the road and enjoy the unique benefit of a good stable high speed conenction all the time. However, there's a whole big world out there where Internet access is not so available.
BTW, I live in Pinellas County just accross the state from you. My home internet goes out at least 5-10 hours per week (Road Runner). When I'm home, I rarely play (Don't have the time). When I play is when I travel (usually about 1-2 weeks per month). Later this Spring I'll be in Baghdad for six weeks with nothing to do at night. Thankfully I have SH3 to help pass time. SH5 would be useless.
skwasjer
03-11-10, 11:42 PM
DRM must go. I have a very stable connection but OSP has bugged me daily since I got the game a few days ago. I would get AC2 too, but now I won't... and that sucks and costs Ubi money. A missed opportunity if you ask me...:dead:
What is interesting is that the DRM supposedly is the same for SH5 and ASSCreed 2, yet SH5 has been cracked from day one(yes it's cracked, only thing was SKIDROW didn't test enough to get the write protect triggers for campaign removed, and that can be done manually) while ASSCreed still hasn't.
Seems to me that SH5 had it slapped on as more of a halfarsed test run, as UBI knows the money is in other games, so why not test their new 'baby' on something most gamers won't care about?
ingsoc84
03-12-10, 01:42 AM
DRM is a double sided sword, part of me does not like it, its my game, I paid for it, and I should not have to have a connection just to play it, other hand, I lived in Russia two years, and its next to impossible to find a non pirated western game.
ingsoc84
03-12-10, 01:44 AM
Matt,
Have you played Sh5 yet while traveling on a plane accross the Atlantic? Or how about when you're on vacation at a house in the woods without Internet access? Or maybe when you're staying at a trade show in Vegas with charges up to $30 per day? or does Comcast charge you per MB like our colleagues in many places in Europe? Or have you played on a satellite connection while resting at night at a military base in Iraq?
Do you get my point yet? You and your buddies obviously don't play on the road and enjoy the unique benefit of a good stable high speed conenction all the time. However, there's a whole big world out there where Internet access is not so available.
BTW, I live in Pinellas County just accross the state from you. My home internet goes out at least 5-10 hours per week (Road Runner). When I'm home, I rarely play (Don't have the time). When I play is when I travel (usually about 1-2 weeks per month). Later this Spring I'll be in Baghdad for six weeks with nothing to do at night. Thankfully I have SH3 to help pass time. SH5 would be useless.
All very good points, overseas, as in Russia, very hard to get good dedicated fast internet, and also, many people pay by the amount downloaded, I had dsl there, fastest residential i could get, always problems.
Frederf
03-12-10, 02:44 AM
Sorry, but I am not as generous as you in my thoughts of his analogy.
Generous is an emotion. Emotion may be the way you deal with communication but in my world the English language is not a child's plaything. A sentence means only one thing no matter how you were feeling when you read it.
jimbuna queries
What saddens me is the fact that the measures taken are no longer sufficient which begs the question....why bother in the first place?
MattDrizzle replies
Damn, this hitler guy seems to have taken over all of europe, destroying nations much larger and more powerful than our own, why bother fighting?
If you look at this it's clear that MattDrizzle is trying to point out the logical failing in jimbuna's premise by reducing that premise to absurd conclusions. Jimbuna suggests in effect "Fighting is useless if you are losing." MattDrizzle replies with the aid of sarcasm, "Surely what you state cannot be universally true. What about this instance? Is this not an example which contradicts your suggestion?"
It doesn't matter if you agree with his overall stance on the issue or even if you like the guy, that is clearly the heart of the conversation. Claims otherwise are at best ignorance and at worst malice. It is not alright nor is it your entitlement to misrepresent reality as you have in such a way that defames a person by words or motive that are fictitious.
Catfish
03-12-10, 02:55 AM
" ... DRM is an excellent anti-consumer-rights scheme that can be easily marketed as anti-piracy. ..."
:rock:
And this is what it's all about.
1. Sell a "license" rather than a copy
2. Make a resell of any game or software at all, impossible
3. Demand constant online requirement, sell this as anti piracy measures
4. When all have online requirement accepted and have to use it, introduce pay-per-play via online debit.
resulting in :
= customer rights cut down, complaints impossible (but it was stated in the box ! You opened that package and accepted all. )
= complete dependability on the company and servers
= constant cashflow from the consumers, which will be "adapted" (read: raised!) from time to time, due to those horrendous development costs, online and programming costs, piracy blah blah blah.
= more people fired (sorry: "set free" ! ) since the model runs itself automatically and is controlloed by IP and eMail information
= pleased shareholders, because every one fired raises the share values.
Phantastic win-win situation for the suits. :up:
Isn't this a great time.
Greetings,
Catfish
FIREWALL
03-12-10, 03:17 AM
What suprises me is this thread hasn't been LOCKED for no other reason than it's going nowhere and discussion of pros and cons long ago stopped.
Nothing but petty bickering and name calling now.
RSColonel_131st
03-12-10, 04:14 AM
I confess to being completely wrong on this front, but i cant imagine that all copies of Sh5 will become worthless data when the servers are pulled, im sure they will think of something. All anger aside do you honestly see that happening?
You are just not informed enough about these issues. Check out what EA did with the multiplayer servers for their 2008 and some of the 2009 sports games.
Check out what Microsoft wanted to do with it's Music Store.
There are already verifyable precendences for companies shutting down online DRM servers with no regard for the customer.
"You can't imagine" - maybe you can't, but the data is out there.
Personally I think UBISoft is not naive and they have no delusions that DRM can significantly curb piracy. However DRM is an excellent anti-consumer-rights scheme that can be easily marketed as anti-piracy. Sure, you might not stop many pirates but honest consumers are far less likely to be able to engage in second hand sales (which is a consumer right being undermined). This is like the police gathering revenue from automobile tickets under the guise of public service. The ticket-able offenses aren't curbed but at least they are making cash.
You are spot on, I believe. Notice how we are not talking about copy protection schemes anymore but digital rights management. In the ideal world from the publisher's point of view we'd only be renting a game for 50 bucks. Publishers hate the second hand market and some have even gone on record saying they'd like a share of it or to destroy it completely. Imagine a car manufacturer had the same idea, we'd laugh.
But this is exactly what's happening with digital media. Remember Spore and how you couldn't cancel your account and thus not re-sell it? Oh, EA changed that after many complaints and several months, but it is inside the first few weeks/months that trading a second hand game gets you some cash back.
From a recent article on techradar: "Obviously, publishers would rather you didn't pass a game onto a mate when you're done with it, or worse still have the both of you be able to play it from just one disc. However, it's permitted on console - as is the resale market. A few places will accept PC game trade-ins, but not ones that have been activated. Increasingly, we're also seeing PC games - most recently Mass Effect 2 - that bind major content, masquerading as DLC, to a single online account, rendering themselves close to worthless for trade-in. Legitimate PC game purchasers are being punished unduly because of a perception that sharing is piracy. Even the good guys get this wrong - Valve's digital distribution Steam may be packed with useful internetty bonuses, but if you want to play a game you've bought on it over LAN with a mate in the same house, you're screwed. Gaming's best experiences are often shared experiences - it's insane to deny that to players."
http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/for-and-against-drm-in-games-675447?artc_pg=2
I am absolutely certain: Publishers have given up on combatting piracy years ago, they've tried everything from Starforce to Steam and nothing worked. But with DRM they can curtail the second hand market, as Frederf said under the disguise of anti-piracy measures.
That's making legitimate buyers to jump through hoops to play a game and on top of that deny them from reselling it legitimately.
Indeed it is a free market and as with everything we buy, each time we go to the checkout we cast a vote - for child labour in Asia, to make an extreme point. We can stop this nonsense by not buying games anymore that need an activation (of any kind, if it cannot be recalled).
Alternatively the vague hope remains that lawmakers will jump in at some point and put a stop to the whole notion of DRM or at least forcing publishers to put a large sticker on the games saying "yes, you are paying 50 bucks for this, but you're not getting full ownership".
Tomi_099
03-12-10, 07:42 AM
So first, I wonder who is the boy?
Second, I wonder where he get that?
And the third I say, I like to pay 200Euro but then I want something
the good and not for 50Euro a scrap, because then I feel cheated.
What company is behind it because I do not care but we do not want to waste our money.
Then you wonder who the pirates are here!:nope:
so simpel is this !!
Rockin Robbins
03-12-10, 07:47 AM
Piracy of my computer and piracy of my rights is NOT acceptable in response to others' piracy of a game. The problem is not the DRM, it is Ubi. Dinosaur Ubi must die to be replaced by mammalian life which will value us as honest friends, fans and devoted customers.
Nordmann
03-12-10, 08:40 AM
You are just not informed enough about these issues. Check out what EA did with the multiplayer servers for their 2008 and some of the 2009 sports games.
Check out what Microsoft wanted to do with it's Music Store.
There are already verifyable precendences for companies shutting down online DRM servers with no regard for the customer.
"You can't imagine" - maybe you can't, but the data is out there.
The thing is, this "we'll patch it if we ever need to" mentality is all very well, but they're missing the point. If the company goes bankrupt, there is going to be no one there to create said patch! The staff will have been laid off, and I'm quite sure none of them are going to come back to work unpaid for a day, just to make this offline patch.
Skullcowboy
03-12-10, 09:07 AM
Generous is an emotion. Emotion may be the way you deal with communication but in my world the English language is not a child's plaything. A sentence means only one thing no matter how you were feeling when you read it.
There are several pages of friendly debate to be had from your comment above but this is not the place.
His meaning was quite clear. I was commenting on HIS feeling as he wrote it. I know EXACTLY how I felt when I read it...
I hadn't seen anyone post this yet, but it looks like Matt could use some help.
So take this you b*s*a*ds!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5lQ-9reiLU
Rip
Juliano
03-12-10, 03:11 PM
I´ve seen that
and I :har:
Faamecanic
03-12-10, 03:25 PM
The thing is, this "we'll patch it if we ever need to" mentality is all very well, but they're missing the point. If the company goes bankrupt, there is going to be no one there to create said patch! The staff will have been laid off, and I'm quite sure none of them are going to come back to work unpaid for a day, just to make this offline patch.
Sad thing is....Just like SH3 and later even more so SH4... here is what we will see
1) Initial sales will be lower than SH4 (which was lower than SH3)
2) Ubi will say "there is not enough intrest" (read MONEY) "to patch this game further". Basically blame the gamers/simmers for not rushing out to buy thier half baked turd.
3) The devs will be pulled off the game/sim.... and sim will remain half finished (like SH4).
If we are (insert sarcasm) LUCKY (end sarcasm) UBI MAY try and package a FINAL patch along with a half finished Expansion (1943-45) that we will PAY for (ala SH4).... and still have an incomplete game.
:down: :nope: :down:
Sad thing is....Just like SH3 and later even more so SH4... here is what we will see
1) Initial sales will be lower than SH4 (which was lower than SH3)
2) Ubi will say "there is not enough intrest" (read MONEY) "to patch this game further". Basically blame the gamers/simmers for not rushing out to buy thier half baked turd.
3) The devs will be pulled off the game/sim.... and sim will remain half finished (like SH4).
If we are (insert sarcasm) LUCKY (end sarcasm) UBI MAY try and package a FINAL patch along with a half finished Expansion (1943-45) that we will PAY for (ala SH4).... and still have an incomplete game.
:down: :nope: :down:
Interesting point of view. Never looked at it that way
Nordmann
03-12-10, 04:07 PM
Sad thing is....Just like SH3 and later even more so SH4... here is what we will see
1) Initial sales will be lower than SH4 (which was lower than SH3)
2) Ubi will say "there is not enough intrest" (read MONEY) "to patch this game further". Basically blame the gamers/simmers for not rushing out to buy thier half baked turd.
3) The devs will be pulled off the game/sim.... and sim will remain half finished (like SH4).
If we are (insert sarcasm) LUCKY (end sarcasm) UBI MAY try and package a FINAL patch along with a half finished Expansion (1943-45) that we will PAY for (ala SH4).... and still have an incomplete game.
:down: :nope: :down:
Yes, but rather than blame themselves for turning out an unfinished product, they will either attest lack of sales to piracy, or a lack of interest in this genre. Either way, we're probably not going to get another Silent Hunter game.
That's fine though, because if the trend displayed with SH5 continues, the next game would probably be a scrolling platform rendition of submarine warfare!
DeadlyWolf
03-12-10, 04:48 PM
Gabe Newell of Valve destroys your argument in one short interview on piracy, and how DRM only creates more pirates:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87pevh2Q0hg#t=3m30s
And he is not the only one. There're very interesting talks about it from the CEO of Stardock too.
Oh and screw gaben, he games 2 games in 15 years that everyone and their dad buys and they think he's some kind of gaming messiah.
No, screw someone else.
You probably can't even understand what steam has done for the PC gaming in these years.
You guys do know that somewhere out there a game developer probibly is losing his house right now because his company couldnt afford to keep him on, right? Or do you guys not care about hypothetical people?Ohh you broke my heart:wah:....you're probably talking about some Ubisoft employee, because there're many companies who can safely survive by making very good games without spending 10 millions $ on marketing and without some idiotic DRM.
Regards
You are spot on, I believe. Notice how we are not talking about copy protection schemes anymore but digital rights management. In the ideal world from the publisher's point of view we'd only be renting a game for 50 bucks. Publishers hate the second hand market and some have even gone on record saying they'd like a share of it or to destroy it completely. Imagine a car manufacturer had the same idea, we'd laugh.
....
Wow, respect, you're sharp. That was a very very good post, and I believe in a few years from now we will all concur that it was right on the mark.
This thread started out a bit stupid but has turned into a really good discussion.
Maybe extend the idea of "renting a license" (which is what it legally always was, but as a courtesy you previously had the CD at home and could install at will without internet chain), i.e. customer binding to a product or company: what would you think about "software on demand"? Addons on demand (Rise of Flight etc)? Like Netflix, have one game at a time send to you as DVD, or run one game at a time online? For only $69.99 plus state tax a month. And as a bonus, you will get the unbelievable "Making of" of your favorite bug!
cappy70
03-12-10, 09:59 PM
:yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn:
Rockin Robbins
03-13-10, 08:05 AM
You know, the fact is, as long as this atrocious DRM is around it doesn't matter how good the game is, how moddable it is, how much work went into it, how many people are depending on it for income. All the good stuff is entirely wasted and rendered meaningless by the customer punishment program.
Ubi is the first company in history to make suicide part of its centeral business model. It's a wonderful thing! I suggest that we help them attain their goal by finding other purposes on which to spend our money. SH5 is done. Stick a fork in it.
Faamecanic
03-13-10, 12:24 PM
Yes, but rather than blame themselves for turning out an unfinished product, they will either attest lack of sales to piracy, or a lack of interest in this genre. Either way, we're probably not going to get another Silent Hunter game.
That's fine though, because if the trend displayed with SH5 continues, the next game would probably be a scrolling platform rendition of submarine warfare!
That was my point in Number 2. Ubi will blame lack of gamer interest and not enough up front buyers to fund the devs to further patch the game. Instead of blaming themselves for an unfinished product with a horrendous DRM scheme.
Faamecanic
03-13-10, 12:27 PM
Maybe extend the idea of "renting a license" (which is what it legally always was, but as a courtesy you previously had the CD at home and could install at will without internet chain), i.e. customer binding to a product or company: what would you think about "software on demand"? Addons on demand (Rise of Flight etc)? Like Netflix, have one game at a time send to you as DVD, or run one game at a time online? For only $69.99 plus state tax a month. And as a bonus, you will get the unbelievable "Making of" of your favorite bug!
You mean like M$ Winblows?
You pay $300 for a OS... you can only install it on one machine (even if you OWN 5), if you switch out any major component or re-install more than a few times you have to call them to re-activiate, and in 3-5 years it will be obsolete.
I will give it to M$...at least they have tried to work with people and lowered the upgrade costs since WinXp first came out.
TwistedFemur
03-13-10, 01:14 PM
Gabe Newell of Valve destroys your argument in one short interview on piracy, and how DRM only creates more pirates:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87pevh2Q0hg#t=3m30s
WOW THIS IS WHAT iVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY FOR YEARS
Fact of life : you paid the game, can't register server is down.
Fact of life : you paid the game, did register but can't play server is down.
Stare at your screen and repeat aloud : "up my a$$"
Get on your knees and bow to Ubisoft and pray for a DRM world.
Meanwhile, all pirates are playin' the game while you stare and your screen.
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