[TMO 1.9] Help me become a better Captain ^__^

[xiombargdei]

Ahoy everyone!

Long time reader, kinda first time poster :)

I used to play SH4 with low Realistic settings and have fun sinking Carriers and BS. Now SHV is out it gave me a craving for playing a submarine simulation again, but seeing how the game is unfinished, i went back to SHIV with TMO 1.9.

Now i'm roughly on 80% realism (Map updates are ON, external view ON, Manual Targeting ON).

I know TMO changes the convoys behaviour, making them change route, speed and overall being more difficult and track and sink. Well here is my point : Can you, and if yes, how, sink an entire small convoy with TMO 1.9 ?

I can get into position, 1Km away, engine off, periscope depth, and sink the first merchant ship of the convoy with no problem.
This is when it gets hard :
- if i stay where i am and dont move, engine stop, silent running, periscope lowered, DDs come after me and sink me.
- If i deep dive to 50meters or more, ahead 1/3rd to not be detected, the convoy gets too far away from me.
- If i dive to like 30meters, ahead 2/3rd or more, and try to reposition myself, as soon as I get to periscope depth again, DDs come after me right away.

So how do you sink more than one ship in a convoy ? What are your best practices ?

[looney]

I'm not an expert on fleetboats. But if you look around on these forums there are some great techniques.

I prefer the 90° attack combined with the 0° gyro.

Get info on 1 ship of the convoy (outser corner is easiest).
You only need speed and track! Cause at 0° gyro range is unimportant, cause the torpedo doesn't need to turn.

Input the aob and speed of the target ship into the TDC. Any range will do, but the longer the better.

Now put your scope to the 0° gyro bearing (make a triangle where the length of the 2 legs are: 1 speed of torpedo (46 knots for fast), 2 the speed of the convoy. The angle hypothenusa and the 46kn leg is the lead angle for your scope there are pics of this somewhere here on the forum)).

Now put your scope at that lead angle. Now send a new range to the TDC. This makes a solution for the torpedo (ie sets the gyro).
Now you can fire your torps at the ships (2 per target I recomend). as they cross the scope... Let them come to you instead you to them :)

There are much better explanations but the above is the basics.

[VonGlaus]

The destroyers are going to head to where they think the torpedoes were fired from. If you are sitting dead still in the water, you'll be a sitting duck (underwater duck?) right where they are looking.

I usually fire my entire forward spread, dive deep and accelerate under the convoy, then turn onto their track. This sometimes allows me to come back up for another shot.

But then, I've never sunk an entire convoy, unless you count sampans...

[magic452]

Looney is right about zero gyro angle shots, very accurate and easy to set up. Check Rockin Robbins Sub sim Skippers Bag of Tricks thread.

To sink more than one ship in a convoy you have to pick your targets carefully, put yourself into a good firing position and shoot fast.
Night or bad weather helps.

I can often set up two zero angle shots at the same time, Mk.14 one on low speed and the other high. Target ships in two different columns.

TDC/PK can be done the same way high and low speed. Time it right and you'll hit both about the same time before they start to slow and turn.

Take your best shoots and run like hell. TMO 1.9 is tough, no more dashing in guns a blazing. More like real life.
Do a runaround and repeat. Learn to shoot from long range 2,500m or more.

By the way GOOD gaming choice, I'll be playing SH4 and TMO for a long time.

Magic

[Randomizer]

One Captian's $0.02...

Planning the approach is everything. One ideal situation is overlapping targets with a 90* shot (zero gyro angle) but this can be very difficult to achieve in operations. Once you have SJ radar it greatly facilitates predicting where your intercept point will be. There are lots of aids and tutorials around here to help out with the geometry of an approach, use them. Put some effort into studying what worked in real-life, most of those techniques will also work in SH4.

Be patient, a premature attack can ruin your day and if you have to eat a counter-attack and some depth charges, better to do so after a kill or two than to fire from a bad approach angle, miss and get attacked anyway.

Failure to plan means planning to fail in any submarine attack and stick to the plan until it is obvious that it won't work then disengage and rethink the approach if still undetected. TMO rewards fore thought and deliberate execution and punishes rashness.

Lastly, practice, practice, practice.

Good Luck and Good Hunting.

[Armistead]

Yes, you can easily wipe out a small convoy of..let's say 6 ships. The first thing with TMO is to understand how the AI works and attack to your best advantage. Here's a good place to start. You want as many factors in your favor when attacking, because the escorts can easily ruin your set up.
http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ai.htm

I love the OKane 90 degree attack, but with TMO, your often sensed or picked up and the ships change course and speed so it's hard to attack multiple targets, if any this way..If waters are calm, they will easily see the torps and slow down. If you can do your attack before the escorts come looking, you can use many different methods. I may use OKane for one ship, then use Easy AOB with the stad setting up my other targets.


I use RSRD which reworks convoy layers and convoys can be large, 30-60 ships, but also use this attack with smaller convoys. I stay at a narrow angle go deep and silent coming in between the lead DD and flank. Once the lead DD passes, you have to be careful not to fall into the sonar cone of a flank escort. Course your deep, so you'll have to pass on the ships up from, but that's OK. Come up and shoot the ships towards the rear of the convoy and haul arse, going deep, but flank speed. Your goal is to get out of the zone where the escorts will circle, about 500's from where your torps came from is where they will start hunting. If you can get out of that circle of death where they hunt before they get there, you can keep good speed. The goal is to leave the DD's hunting where you were and why they are hunting, you're setting up your next attack. If you can attack about 1500 from a DD, you should be able to escape the zone they will hunt in. I've done this over and over until all ships are gone.

Another good method at night is to shoot a M14 from long range, say 5000 yards. You do want to try to hit something, but your goal is to pull the DD's away. After you shoot, haul arse and set up an attack from another position closer in why the escorts are looking for you where you once were. Why they're looking, attack again closer in, try not to dive, but if you do, be ready to surface and run.

Main thing is to attack and get away fast before the dd's come looking. You want to alway have the escorts hunting where you were why your attacking from another position. You attack and move, repeat...

[xiombargdei]

Hi again :)

thanks to your good advices and links, i managed to successfuly sink 2 merchants on the same lane and successfuly escape the DDs. I even think i understand the maths behind this technique ^__^ So each time i meet a convoy, i sink 2 of their ships, which is fair enough.

Now, its another story to sink the whole convoy :hmmm: I think i have to better plot my escape course so i end up somehow behind the fleeing boats. Since they are on a zig-zag pattern, they will present me their flank at a time or another. Working on this technique now.

But i have 2 other concerns :
1. Planes. Its a real pain. every 5 or 10 seconds real time, my radar detects a plane and i have to dive to 30m. Is there any tips about this ? like travel with a slow time compression ? underwater only on daytime, then surface and flank speed at night ? i read that TMO1.9 reduces the planes spawn rate ... i guess there is a problem there.

2. i had a stange encounter last night. I still have the savegame if you guys want. i was escaping from singapore and had a report of a ship 5000m away. I dive to periscope depth and plot interception course. Its a japanese tanker, nothing special here. Problem is this ship is really slow, les than 2Kn, for a lonely tanker on daytime with a calm sea. Well, i hit time compression and wait for the ship to cross my 340. But, it stops at my 320. it stops completly, 0Kn, and just do nothing.... Well, i set up my TDC and fire torpedoes at him. And the torpedoes just cross it without hitting it. wtf ? i reload, set the torps to minimum depth, contact, launch and ... nothing, they just run past it and dont explode.... i think its just a bug, the ship actually dont exist, so i surface the boat, but it fires real bullets at me and i take real damage ^^ so what's up with that ? anyone had the same problem ?

[magic452]

If you are in an area that planes are that big a problem yes go to 50m or so(165 feet) and stay down but only go 2 or 3 kn. Surface at night but DO NOT use flank speed or you will soon run out of fuel. Stay at 10 kn.
In TMO there are areas that have very heavy air patrols but these are easy to avoid once you know where they are.

As to your other problem, I've only heard of this once so it seems like some little bug that passes.

Magic

[CraBBMan]

I have a question guys.
I dont know where im wrong, i've been looking and reading tons of tutorials for manual aiming and its ok when im using training mission in submarine school, but in current situation i have my eyes on Taiho(or whats his name) Support Carrier.

He and others in convoy are heading 270 degrees, i position my self at 180 degrees at about 700m from his path.
Convoy speed is 8 knots, i do the range test once, wait till hes close, do another, angle on bow 75 to starboard and i turn on position keeper, send range again and fire 4 spread torpedoes at depth of 5m (offset to right) and i cant hit him not even once.

I know that he speeds up when he sees the first one but i just cant imagine how he can sucesfully evade all others, and i tried different offset settings.
I cant see where my torpedoes pass since im playing on 100 realisim and dont have external look.
I've been trying and trying and no luck.
Can anyone give me a tip or somthing im getting really pissed.

Thanks.

[magic452]

Are you sure the speed is 8 kn. kind of slow for a TF.?
Make sure you are sending speed, AoB and range/bearing to the PK.
I'm sure you are but just a though.

Open the torpedo doors, Q key, early. But at 700m you should still hit something.

At 700m your spread should be about 1.5° between shots.
Try to put one across it's bow, that will keep her from speeding up.

If the speed is 8Kn. try this:
Set MK14 to high speed. contact, 5m.

Set target speed to zero degrees. Send to PK
Set AoB to zero, A zero gyro angle shot. Send to PK
Set bearing to zero Send to PK.
If you are loading from a save all these are set to Zero.
DO NOT turn on the PK.

Aim the periscope to 10° and shoot as the target comes to the cross wire. If you have Mk10 set the scope to 12.5°

One at the bow and than work your way back.
After you shoot lock the scope on the target and you should see the impacts as the target gets to zero on the scope.
If you still miss no doubt your target speed is wrong.

If you are new to the game you might consider turning Map contacts ON for a time to get the feel of how to manual target.
If you have played SH3 the fleetboat TDC works a little differently.

Welcome to the boat mate, hope this helps.
Good luck and good hunting.

Magic

[CraBBMan]

Thanks, very helpful informations.

All data is sent to TDC, tubes open.
Maybe you'r right about speed. Manual says that max speed for that carrier is 21 knots, but one time i tried using stadimeter, it showed me that target speed is over 30 knots, i dont know hows that possible. But i can see him speeding up which means that hes not going full speed.

Here are the screenshots:
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/1741/81413821.th.jpg (http://img705.imageshack.us/i/81413821.jpg/)
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1262/69384206.th.jpg (http://img8.imageshack.us/i/69384206.jpg/)
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/5876/18964549.th.jpg (http://img705.imageshack.us/i/18964549.jpg/)

I was just wondering how come he can speed up so fast when he spots the torpedoes.
I even tried firing one straight with solution ready, just to scare him and three others with greater offset. I can see the trail of torpedoes and sometimes like they go through him or he outruns them.

I tried zero gyro angle shot at 10 degrees, torpedoes just passed behind him.

Im new to manual targeting but i've been playing since SH3.

Thanks again.

[Armistead]

Almost all TF go over 12knts, unless they've somehow spotted you, then they can slow way down, but usually they zig and you know they've sensed you. One thing I hate about the game is how they slow when they know you're around, in real life they would be hitting flank and turning away from you.

The ships have turbo stops and starts...but do what magic said, works great. I'll shoot my first one a lil in front of the target or right on his bow, then the next ones further back working my way to the stern. He'll usually slow down or not change speed to try to dodge the first one, so that'll hold him in place for the others to hit..time it right they all will hit.. Just be fast in sending your torps, you want them all to get there together, so he can't dodge them one by one. Make sure you grab those electrics when you can and use them during the day in calm water.

I seldom miss if I aim at the bow first and work by way back. You aim at the middle, he'll just speed up.

[CraBBMan]

No they have no idea im there.

This is interesting, stadimeter shows range of 700m but when i ping the target it says 1800m :o
Is it possible that my TMO is damaged or am i doing something wrong?

[Armistead]

No they have no idea im there.

This is interesting, stadimeter shows range of 700m but when i ping the target it says 1800m :o
Is it possible that my TMO is damaged or am i doing something wrong?

I take it you're actually using meters..that's a big difference. Are you using SCAF, ect...I don't think TMO 1.9 uses it, so you are measuring to the highest mast point. I use a mod SCAF for TMO 1.9 beta and it works good. I'd rather measure by the funnel than the mast anyway.

No, the stad doesn't get messed up. Sometimes the TBT or scope can and it will line up off center, but you can still take a stad measurement. I haven't looked at all the post, but I assume you're doing it right. Are you sure your pinging the right ship and not another one behind further away.
Take one of the tools and measure the distance on the nav map, so you can see which one is right.

We're you getting you speed using stad measurements? Are you in a position you can do a 3 minute measurement to get a correct speed?

[theevilgenius]

:salute:
i got a question, how does the shallow dept meter work?
the red arrow always points to +-15meters, even in shallow water :damn:

[Admiral8Q]

You should play with feet, yards, and miles in an American submarine:03:
The red arrow is periscope depth in the shallow gauge. It's test depth in the deep one.

[CraBBMan]

Yes im using metric system.
No other mods installed except TMO 1.9.

This is the spot where i need to take measures right?
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/1262/69384206.jpg

Yeah im pinging the right ship, this is the last ship in convoy, escort is in front of him.
Somethings not right here, i'll try switching to miles.

3 minutes show target speed of 21 knots, and again 2k meters:
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/9308/21knots.jpg

I hope that they didnt spot me and speed up, but i dont see the escort turning nor morse code flashing, so it looks like they didnt.
Looks like the stadimeter doesnt work like it should work for me.

btw i just saw this, the scale on the stadimeter says "Range in yards" :shifty:

[magic452]

Looks like you are using the stedimeter right.

The three minute rule is very good for speed but since you are using metric the rule is 3 minutes and 15 seconds not 3 min. even. That would give you a speed of more than 21Kn so I think your range and bearing data is off.

In your screen shot there is a circle of 2100 meters and your sub is outside the circle so the range to target should have been something like 2500 m. or so. In the second SS the PK shows 1136 m so something is wrong.

You shoot my 10° bearing shot and missed behind says that you had the speed of 8Kn. wrong. Using the auto plot speed thing is not very accurate. For a speed of 21Kn. put the scope to about 20 to 22° and try that.

You have picked a very tough target to learn manual targeting with 100% realism. Fast moving warship, clear sky and calm water.

You might try a single patrol and turn map contacts on and get the feel of manual targeting and how the TDC/PK work. That way you can check your firing solution on the attack map. Get a little experience and than come back and put the CV under.

Magic

[Gilbou]

You should play with feet, yards, and miles in an American submarine:03:
The red arrow is periscope depth in the shallow gauge. It's test depth in the deep one.

I concur.

What is also strange is I have been raised in the metric system, so the US length units meaned nothing to me.

But I have learned to understand and use them using the game, and now I see the beauty of those units especially in the naval use.

[CraBBMan]

Ok Magic, 3 minutes 15 seconds. That would give more than 21 knots, but hows that even possible when the target max speed is 21 knots ?
Above nav map picture is made using sonar, when im using stadimeter i measure 800m range and 8 knots.

Thats a big diference dont you agree?
800m - 2000m
8knots - 21 knots
:hmmm:

Somethings wrong here, why am i not getting same values thats what i want to know. And which one should i believe in this case, sonar or stadimeter. Since im missing the target my guess is that the stadimeter is incorrect.

[magic452]

I think I see the problem?????
Try taking the stedimeter reading on the flight deck instead of the top of the mast. 16 meters is about 50 feet and that is way too low for the mast high, but sounds about right for the flight deck.

If there is some other ship you can get a fix on like a DD try that one also.
Some carriers use the deck but all DD will use the top of the mast.

Magic

PS if you are pinging warships to get range I predict a very short career in TMO1.9.

[CraBBMan]

Yes you are right, flight deck is the spot.
Im not pinging warships, up close, only from distance.

Thank you guys for your help
:salute: