Lost and Found

[PaulH513]

The one good thing that I can say about SH5 is the bonus disk that came with it. I will reserve judgment on the actual game until I can play it properly because I need to buy a new video card and power supply. Presently I have too much lag because of my current video card Nvidia GeForce 8400.

This video is a thought provoking documentary about the USS Lagarto that was sunk by a Japanese warship. Almost 60 years to the day after she entered eternal patrol she was found by divers and it gives clues as to what the brave men were trying to do. We all know it takes a rare breed of courageous men to volunteer to be a submariner and it makes me wonder how many of us who play this game could of and would have done the same as they did. Probably the same ratio, about 5%.

When you play this game and this doesn't work right and that needs to be changed, than try to remember those who gave their all so that we have the freedom to complain, the right to make choices and the privilege to speak our minds. I also think it would be all together fitting and proper to have a thread here on Subsim dedicated to the heroes of WW2 so that we can add video links and other such important information so as to keep their memory alive.

If you care to, join me in saluting all veterans and active duty personnel fighting for freedom where ever they may be. :salute:

For those of you who have not bought the game yet you can see the video here. http://thaiwreckdiver.com/lagarto.htm

[SabreHawk]

I will certainly join you in that salute Paul, and these were excellent thoughts on this you have stated.:salute:
I too enjoyed the video, and thank UBI for it's inclusion with SH5. And yes indeed, these men were a rare breed. And lest we forget the sacrifice they made, the one's who never came home to our beloved country that they served and died for. And it was for us whom this sacrifice was for, so that we could live on in freedom.

As I once heard said, "They gave up all their tomorrows, so that we could have a today."

[Jimbuna]

Very well put Paul.

God bless em all.

~SALUTE~

[Gabucino]

who gave their all so that we have the freedom to complain, the right to make choices and the privilege to speak our minds.

You do realize that distributing or owning Silent Hunter with a swastika inside will get you to jail right?

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

You do realize that distributing or owning Silent Hunter with a swastika inside will get you to jail right?

Not in all countries.

[SabreHawk]

You do realize that distributing or owning Silent Hunter with a swastika inside will get you to jail right?

Ok just what does this statement have to do with this thread?

[PaulH513]

You do realize that distributing or owning Silent Hunter with a swastika inside will get you to jail right?


According to this article, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-495692/German-facing-jail-shaving-swastika-dogs-fur.html the law would apply if you publicly display the swastika.

So unless you are playing Silent Hunter on a 52" LCD on your front yard singing "Niedersachsemarsch" with a fully loaded luger, I do not believe anything will happen to you.

It is not like the Gestapo TV police force their way into everyones home and demand to see what you are watching

If that were the case than they would have to build more jails just to put all the Neo-Nazi Skinheads in the big house !

When it comes to distributing the swastika they could start with those employed at Wikipedia for this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

As a side note:
Here in the USA the veterans groups like the VFW and the American Legion have been trying for years to make it a law not to desecrate the Amerian Flag to no avail. But our bleeding heart liberal politicians believe that it violates your freedom of speech. :nope:

I better stop now....I am starting to get a little wound up

[VirtualVikingX]

Ok just what does this statement have to do with this thread?

+ 1

Gabby, please explain!

[Buddahaid]

According to this article, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-495692/German-facing-jail-shaving-swastika-dogs-fur.html the law would apply if you publicly display the swastika.

So unless you are playing Silent Hunter on a 52" LCD on your front yard singing "Niedersachsemarsch" with a fully loaded luger, I do not believe anything will happen to you.

It is not like the Gestapo TV police force their way into everyones home and demand to see what you are watching

If that were the case than they would have to build more jails just to put all the Neo-Nazi Skinheads in the big house !

When it comes to distributing the swastika they could start with those employed at Wikipedia for this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

As a side note:
Here in the USA the veterans groups like the VFW and the American Legion have been trying for years to make it a law not to desecrate the Amerian Flag to no avail. But our bleeding heart liberal politicians believe that it violates your freedom of speech. :nope:

I better stop now....I am starting to get a little wound up

Good for them as I haven't noticed the avid flag wavers being any smarter when it comes to "how" you respect the flag. There are rules you know, about where, when, and how the flag is displayed in public. :salute:

EDIT: I remember soon after 9/11 during a ball game where little flags had been handed out for the "God Bless America" singing, finded hundreds of those flags all over the ground with the rest of the garbage! The people are just clueless now.

[gmccabe01]

Yes lets honour the memory of all the brave souls who fought in all wars
no matter what nationalty.
Lets not say for freedom,liberty,justice as those words mean different
things to different people

[Gabucino]

Ok just what does this statement have to do with this thread?

Easy. The OP expressed how he wishes allied forces to be remembered as the bringers of freedom.

Well, here in the Axis countries (Hungary to be precise), the allied armies/airforce did not bring any of the aforementioned freedom, but instead unleashed previously unknown destruction, misery, mass murders, communist governments, terrorist state police.

History is codified by law even nowadays. Even the UK has a law that war crimes could only have been commited by Germany.

I have no problem with respecting worthy opponents, but freedom?.. We have far less of it since the end of World War 2.

[SabreHawk]

Easy. The OP expressed how he wishes allied forces to be remembered as the bringers of freedom.

Well, here in the Axis countries (Hungary to be precise), the allied armies/airforce did not bring any of the aforementioned freedom, but instead unleashed previously unknown destruction, misery, mass murders, communist governments, terrorist state police.

History is codified by law even nowadays. Even the UK has a law that war crimes could only have been commited by Germany.

I have no problem with respecting worthy opponents, but freedom?.. We have far less of it since the end of World War 2.

Whatever...........:hmmm:

[Nisgeis]

Easy. The OP expressed how he wishes allied forces to be remembered as the bringers of freedom.

Well, here in the Axis countries (Hungary to be precise), the allied armies/airforce did not bring any of the aforementioned freedom, but instead unleashed previously unknown destruction, misery, mass murders, communist governments, terrorist state police.

History is codified by law even nowadays. Even the UK has a law that war crimes could only have been commited by Germany.

I have no problem with respecting worthy opponents, but freedom?.. We have far less of it since the end of World War 2.

Alright, so going back to 'the truth' weren't there approx 550,000 Hungarian Jews murdered up to 1944? Exactly what level of 'previsously unknown misery, mass murder' etcetera was delivered by the allied forces? Because it must have had one hell of an impact to eclipse Hungary's contribution to the attempted extermination of the Jews? Unless you weren't counting the whole holocaust thing.

[Gabucino]

Alright, so going back to 'the truth' weren't there approx 550,000 Hungarian Jews murdered up to 1944?

"Up to"? If you knew even a little bit about history, you'd have used the word "from". Hungary was the last shelter of the askenazim.

I'm not even sure what do you want to accomplish by reciting holocaust laws here. I was referring to Hungary, not Israel. :hmmm:

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Alright, so going back to 'the truth' weren't there approx 550,000 Hungarian Jews murdered up to 1944? Exactly what level of 'previsously unknown misery, mass murder' etcetera was delivered by the allied forces? Because it must have had one hell of an impact to eclipse Hungary's contribution to the attempted extermination of the Jews? Unless you weren't counting the whole holocaust thing.

I think he meant either allied air raids for example destruction of Dresden or ending up to be Soviet puppet state. Soviet Union was one of allied countries don't forget that.

EDIT: Great I'm repeating things allready well know. I really should go to sleep a little bit.

[Gabucino]

I think he meant either allied air raids for example destruction of Dresden or ending up to be Soviet puppet state. Soviet Union was one of allied countries don't forget that.

That, and for example the fact that after the war, one of Hungary's first international aid requests were several hundred thousands of abortion pills.

Thanks for "liberation" and "freedom", sure. :shifty:

[Nisgeis]

I'm not even sure what do you want to accomplish by reciting holocaust laws here. I was referring to Hungary, not Israel. :hmmm:

I see you editted your post, so I have also editted my post. Your original 'QED' meant nothing. What laws are you talking about that I recited?

I think he meant either allied air raids for example destruction of Dresden or ending up to be Soviet puppet state. Soviet Union was one of allied countries don't forget that.

If he wants to say that, he can, but he hasn't yet. I was just saying that Hungary wasn't a free and liberal place, depending on who you were. As I clearly don't know anything about history, I am still unclear what it was that unleashed previously unknown levels of mass murder in Hungary. He seems to be saying that Hungary was a happy la-la-land for all right up until the allies 'freed' them.

[Gabucino]

If he wants to say that, he can, but he hasn't yet.

"Well, here in the Axis countries (Hungary to be precise), the allied armies/airforce did not bring any of the aforementioned freedom, but instead unleashed previously unknown destruction, misery, mass murders, communist governments, terrorist state police."

Did I not?

I was just saying that Hungary wasn't a free and liberal place, depending on who you were.

Huh? The world never was an universally free and liberal place, it is not, and it will never be. On the other hand, Hungary was a prospering democratic republic. She has rebuilt herself since the "democratic", then communist revolutionary government demobilized our army and invited our war enemies to take 2/3 of our territory. They were convicted of high treason (in their absence, as they fled the country with all the money from the National Bank) from 1920-1945. Today, they are revered heroes.

Even the jews of Europe immigrated here because Hungary was the only country on the continent that which welcomed them despite the the aforementioned communist terror government of 1918 which almost completely consisted of them. If this was not a liberal country, then there wasn't any. There wasn't even any atrocities until Germany effectively annexed us in 1944. Regent Horthy wasn't even tried in Nuremberg due to Stalin's express request!

Then came the freedom-bearer allies, who changed our island of peace into a soviet puppet state, with lasting effects.

Did you know about the 1956 hungarian rebellion? Did you know that the current (2006-2010) government still sings the Internationale (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF8c0-t9_IU) ("...Of the past let us wipe the slate clean...")? Did you know that I am on the police counter-terrorism department's watch list just because I'm acquinted with an independent newspaper's crew? (I've seen the papers for it, let's not get into how) Did you know that we have a law that codifies that the hungarian soviet state police (ÁVO) never commited murders, tortures, and cruel interrogations? Did you know that this law was conveniently enacted when a victim recognized one of his torturers, and wanted to put him before the law?

Exactly how are we living in a more free/liberal country?.. (Sidenote: the liberal party is on 1% popularity according to the current census. This is how the voting people rate their mischiefs.)

As I clearly don't know anything about history, I am still unclear what it was that unleashed previously unknown levels of mass murder in Hungary.

I dunno, maybe the red army?.. These doctrines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Ehrenburg#World_War_II) were officially spread on the front, and hungarians were treated no differently than germans.

He seems to be saying that Hungary was a happy la-la-land for all right up until the allies 'freed' them.

I do. You could beg to differ, but I probably know a bit more about my country than you do, if you don't mind me... or let's skip this discussion altogether, there's no point in arguing here. For us, every U-boot sunk meant a thousand civilians who directly suffered the soviet-allied terror/freedom.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

That, and for example the fact that after the war, one of Hungary's first international aid requests were several hundred thousands of abortion pills.

Thanks for "liberation" and "freedom", sure. :shifty:

:o Abortion pills? Wow! I couldn't even imagine any more urgent need...

[Nemesis43]

Life under pan-european national socialism would have been no picnic either, you know.
The western allied powers weren't politically able to claim all of Europe when the Soviet Union had played such an instrumental part in defeating Nazi Germany. Insisting on it might well have led to more war, and that would truly have been ugly and quite possibly nuclear.
It was a very unfortunate outcome for eastern Europe as a whole, of which most had a considerably harder time than Hungary. The exception was, of course, the uprising in 1956. Had other eastern-bloc countries tried the same, they would have fared no better.
The unpleasant fact remains that, during the war, Hungary did help to deport a great many jews. It, like many other countries, had fascist tendencies at the time, and antisemitism/racism was widespread. It's still around today, mostly slumbering just beneath the surface.
In Hungary, it's currently the gypsy population that bears the brunt of it, but there is still also quite a bit of antisemitism.

Links for your perusal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_National_Socialist_Party
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_Cross_Party
and something much more recent (2007-2009):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyar_Garda
and some pictures of them:
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0eDj9l22Xl13V/610x.jpg
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,952214,00.jpg
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/images/jobbik.jpg
and their backers, who are still a legitimate political party today:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobbik
http://thefastertimes.com/protofascistmovements/files/2009/07/jobbik_wideweb__470x3580.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/03rJ88Qf7Pgvp/610x.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:JobbikPlakat2009.jpg
(election poster featuring the slogan "Hungary belongs to Hungarians")

[DarkFolle]

:o Abortion pills? Wow! I couldn't even imagine any more urgent need...

This is because u don't use ur mind. Think about all the raped women, during and....after war.

[Gabucino]

Life under pan-european national socialism would have been no picnic either, you know.

National Socialism was banned in Hungary until the German occupation.


The western allied powers weren't politically able to claim all of Europe when the Soviet Union had played such an instrumental part in defeating Nazi Germany.

Not that they wanted to. In 1932, Stalin created the Holodomor. Ten million ukranians have starved to death due to the state-organized famine and during the freezing winter. Next thing you know, the "western" allies ignore the fact that their mass-murdering friend state invades an allies member (Poland). In fact, to express their gratitude they create the Murmansk convoy, supplying this murderous communist democracy (as it was called).

It was a very unfortunate outcome for eastern Europe as a whole

Agreed, that's what I wrote.

In Hungary, it's currently the gypsy population that bears the brunt of it

It is very unfortunate that foreign news agencies are fed these lies (by Viktoria Mohácsi, a gypsy who is a member of the post-communist government, and also Veronika Munk, whose irreal articles have caused great outrage). Reality:

- the gypsy mafia (http://index.hu/belfold/2010/03/16/harcikutya-viadalok_es_allatkinzas_ozdon/) of Ózd holding dog fights

- the last old hungarian lady in a now gypsy village has been brutally murdered (http://vastagbor.blog.hu/2010/02/27/es_hetesen_felsirt_az_utolso_magyar?token=fed1bd48 fd4c83f46a47a247baa3ff09), bones broken, left for dead. Two gypsy murderers, 14 and 11 years old. These murders are so common that they are hardly treated as news nowadays.

- the gypsy mafia, during a routine fight in a bar (they do that so the owner will have to pay protection money) killed two members (http://www.origo.hu/itthon/20090208-leszurtak-marian-cozmat.html) of the hungarian handball team. They were surrounded, then knifed until they went to the ground. Then they throats were slit. The murderers were let out of prison. They instantly held a "prison release party (http://www.kisalfold.hu/belfold_hirek/partiztak_a_cozma-gyilkossag_gyanusitottjai/2147785/)". Local people said: "the terror came back to our village".

- gypsies brutally murdered (http://www.newsnet14.com/2006/11/24/gypsies-bring-terror-to-hungary/) (english language) a hungarian teacher, while threatening his daughters with rape. The memorial of the event is being used as a garbage dump by the murderers' family.

- they sabotage the train traffic by stealing cables. Daily. These are classified as common "theft" by the lawmakers instead of terrorism. And don't even get me started on the mass-scale illegal woodcutting of forests.

6 gypsies were killed by hate crime, all by the same party. Contrary to the events I mentioned, this case was widely publicized. The fact that one of the culprits was a member of the hungarian secret service (http://www.demokrata.hu/napi-hir/penzeltek-ciganygyilkossagok-elkovetoit?mini=program-naptar/2010/2/all&) - was not. In short: government orchestrated hate crimes, sold abroad to validate the massive police buildup, and the crippling of free-speech laws.

The Guard that you linked has never been associated with agressive acts against minorities (most hungarians would say: unfortunately). We are on the brink of open hostilities, thanks to the gypsies whose slogan is: "kill the hungarian (http://minap.hu/plugins/content/content.php?content.3086)".

I am very sorry, but foreign news agencies only copy the lies of the government propaganda. But I'll say what I always do: don't believe me - check for yourself.

[Nisgeis]

Well it started off about a documentary, but I think this belongs in the GT forum now.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Well it started off about a documentary, but I think this belongs in the GT forum now.
Should we return to remembering those in eternal patrol (and other killed in wars)? This conversation is not going anywhere but disaster. :cry:

[Nemesis43]

Yes, sorry about contributing to the derailment of the thread. It stops here.

[SabreHawk]

;)Indeed, and for the sake of friendship I'd like to say that I'd stand with all, from whatever country you may be in, in honor of your fallen soldiers, sailors and countrymen as well as my own. And offer my sincere appoligies to anyone to whom may be offended by anything I may have said that did not set well with you.

War is a terrible thing, and in the end is the only true enemy. Something that if we are ever to be truly human, to be truly civilized should be elimminated from our existance.
As a child growing up, there was a resteraunt that my mother & father took us to often. And in it, from a friend of the owner was a vast collection of WWII wepons and memorabilia. This friend of the owner lived next door, and out in his front yard was an arillery weapon there also. AS well as much more stuff inside. It was like a small museum.
But one thing that as a boy always struck me as I sat there eating my meal, and gazing around at it all was how grownups who were supposed to be so much smarter than we kids actually approved of the use of such things against others. That all of this stuff had the sole puropose of killing, which to my young mind was taught to me to be wrong.
Yet there it all was on display, and in a place known as a family restaraunt, as if it were perfectly normal and an accepted thing.

Hehe, one such item on the wall that to me always gave me the creeps was a gas mask, and it had what to me were these evil eyes and just staring at me. Made it hard to concentrate on eating sometimes.

[PaulH513]

Speaking of gas masks

Here you see Jimbuna all dressed up for a night on the town :har:

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/300/gasmaskk1082376.th.jpg (http://img717.imageshack.us/i/gasmaskk1082376.jpg/)

Sorry Jim

I have no idea what possessed me to do this

I know, I know its back to the potato peeling room for me

Just don't throw me in the rat infested bilge ok?

I had to throw in a little levity as it seemed we were close to WW3 here on this thread. I am glad to see everyone appears to be on the same page now.

[Jimbuna]

Speaking of gas masks

Here you see Jimbuna all dressed up for a night on the town :har:

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/300/gasmaskk1082376.th.jpg (http://img717.imageshack.us/i/gasmaskk1082376.jpg/)

Sorry Jim

I have no idea what possessed me to do this

I know, I know its back to the potato peeling room for me

Just don't throw me in the rat infested bilge ok?

I had to throw in a little levity as it seemed we were close to WW3 here on this thread. I am glad to see everyone appears to be on the same page now.

Hey!...I resemble that photo http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/1853/angry8ro5.gif






Good to see your keeping your end up matey http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[Sailor Steve]

So...where's the picture of him wearing the mask?

[Jimbuna]

So...where's the picture of him wearing the mask?

Naughty boy....yours sufficed at the time :DL