View Full Version : All of us are using "DRM", it's called "Windows Product Activation."
Ships-R-Us
03-06-10, 04:44 PM
DRM and the Future
Consider one last example of a protection method which has been subject to similar levels of hysteria and misinformation, and which every legitimate Windows user has installed on their system right now: Windows Product Activation. It was introduced in 2001 as part of Windows XP despite massive opposition, and again in 2007 in Windows Vista, and once again to be included in Windows 7 in the near future. If it's been a failure in protecting Windows against casual piracy, then Microsoft certainly hasn't shown any signs of dropping it. Back in 2001, sensationalist articles such as this one not only proclaimed this feature to be 'fiendish' and that it would allow Bill Gates to "...spy on your machine", they also called it "a step too far". Suffice it to say that all these years later, product activation has been proven not to be spyware, is not overly problematic, and the various fantastic scenarios people cooked up to somehow suggest we'd be activating our machines every second day and eventually being locked out of them for no good reason have all been debunked. The truth is that it works just fine, Microsoft still has an almost 90% market share with their Windows OSes, and users have become completely used to Windows Activation; all the hysteria and lies regarding it were proven completely false in the end.
I believe that responsible companys of worthy character that use "DRM" technology are not spying on peoples machines.
kylania
03-06-10, 04:50 PM
Windows Product Activation is fine. You do it once and you're done. You're not treated like a criminal and forced to constantly prove you didn't steal the software by being online without interruption while you play a single player game. Comparing OSP and WPA is the definition of apples and oranges.
If SH5 had required me to be online once to activate the product, NO PROBLEM. But if it forces me to be online constantly, overwrites my saves because of synch issues, doesn't let me play because their servers are having problems and basically makes me suffer even though I paid for the product, BIG PROBLEM.
Windows doesn't stop working just because you can't connect to the internet.
remowilliams
03-06-10, 05:03 PM
[...] and basically makes me suffer even though I paid for the product, BIG PROBLEM.
Exactly.
Easy Tiger
03-06-10, 05:13 PM
Windows Product Activation is fine. You do it once and you're done. You're not treated like a criminal and forced to constantly prove you didn't steal the software by being online without interruption while you play a single player game. Comparing OSP and WPA is the definition of apples and oranges.
If SH5 had required me to be online once to activate the product, NO PROBLEM. But if it forces me to be online constantly, overwrites my saves because of synch issues, doesn't let me play because their servers are having problems and basically makes me suffer even though I paid for the product, BIG PROBLEM.
Can't say it any better than this. You're comparing apples and oranges.
Windows can, however, stop working because you changed a hard drive or swapped out a graphics card. And if it's not the first time, you'll have to call Microsoft and plead your case before they will deign to let you resume using it. You cite Windows Genuine Advantage as a reason we should be okay with Ubi's far more draconian system. I cite Windows Genuine Advantage as the primary reason that I have not purchased a piece of Microsoft software since XP.
nvrsummer2
03-06-10, 05:17 PM
Windows doesn't stop working just because you can't connect to the internet.
End of debate...
Nisgeis
03-06-10, 05:18 PM
Come on people it's time to move on. Consult your subsim manuals and you'll find on page 196, section iii, subsection c, the rules for a new release, which this situation is, clearly states that we should be past the DRM complaints and analogies stage and firmly onto the OMGNOEZ this game suxxorz!1!1!1!one!? submissions and rebuttals stage. All those who picked the white buttons are pro game and all those with the black buttons are anti-game. If you don't have a button, then you got missed off the PM, so send a request off to be assigned your button and you'll know whether you are pro game or anti game. Remember, subsection d details what to do if you get a red button - you have to be anti game, but state clearly you haven't played it, yet still maintain an air of authority about it without a trace of self doubt or even a hint that you know how ridiculous that position is (I know it's a tough one to pull off, but next release you'll get a new button, so this is only for this release).
Remember, the best performance for those with a red button will receive the 'Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf' torphy for excellence.
Flopper
03-06-10, 05:26 PM
To activate Windows, it need happen only once, and an internet connection is not required at all, ever, including the activation.
Ships-R-Us
03-06-10, 05:33 PM
I missed out on the "pm" that issued the buttons. I would like a white button. My manual has subsection C missing. It appears that I was issued a used manual and the previous owner tore out the pages for subsection C.............Any help on getting a white button is appreciated.
Windows doesn't stop working just because you can't connect to the internet.
This...
HundertzehnGustav
03-06-10, 05:55 PM
OMGNOEZ this game suxxorz!1!1!1!one!? :rock:
Nordmann
03-06-10, 05:58 PM
Windows doesn't stop working just because you can't connect to the internet.
Ah, a simple sentence, which nevertheless manages to sum up the entire debate. Bravo sir, bravo indeed.
Not sure what the OP's point is meant to be by creating this thread, but DRM on the whole is not an issue for me. I am not concernd
OSP as a form of DRM is. It prevents me playing the game when I have most time to do so, i.e, when travelling and usually out of touch with the internet.
The biggest problem with all DRM scheme's is that they simply don't do what they set out to do, unless their stated aim is to delay copyright violations, which in the case of OSP and SHV appears it didn't do anyway.
@Nisgeis: :har::har: Nice post!:|\\
Windows doesn't stop working just because you can't connect to the internet.
This. Epic OP fail.
PS—Where are you in NM, deputy?
Nisgeis
03-06-10, 06:38 PM
OMGNOEZ this game suxxorz!1!1!1!one!? :rock:
At last, someone with a bit of common sense for the debate that must be made. My personal oopion is *checks button*, *checks cheat sheet* No, I do not believe that the game suxxorz!1!1!1!one!? because of the nice sea wave graphic implementation thereof.
This. Epic OP fail.
PS—Where are you in NM, deputy?
Silver City.
Ships-R-Us
03-06-10, 07:57 PM
Silver City.
Nice area, as I've been to Pinos Altos just north of you twice on camping trips.
Nice area, as I've been to Pinos Altos just north of you twice on camping trips.
LOL...I suppose so. It's where hippies from the 60s go to retire. :haha:
So I don't fit in very well. :salute:
XabbaRus
03-07-10, 05:49 PM
Windows can, however, stop working because you changed a hard drive or swapped out a graphics card. And if it's not the first time, you'll have to call Microsoft and plead your case before they will deign to let you resume using it. You cite Windows Genuine Advantage as a reason we should be okay with Ubi's far more draconian system. I cite Windows Genuine Advantage as the primary reason that I have not purchased a piece of Microsoft software since XP.
Really? I heard of that but my PC has had a new GFX card, more RAM, new DVD drive and not once has it had to be revalidated and that is after reinstalling XP about 6 times, eg once a year to clear out the system.
Heck I even installed XP from one laptop which had been dismantled onto a different laptop for which I lost the recovery disk and used the serial number off the dismantled laptop and it didn't query that it was on a different laptop to what it should have been expecting. IMHO XP has never been a hassle. The only time I had to phone microsoft is because I read the letter wrong as it was so damn small.
I'm up in ABQ. MIxed bag of hippies and non-hippies up here. 40 minutes north it's hippie central ;)
Schroeder
03-07-10, 06:08 PM
@Xabba
If you get Windows together with your computer (I believe it's called an OEM version) than this Windows will only install on the system with which it was delivered. If you change some major hardware this Windows won't recognise your computer any more and therefore won't install.
This does not happen with a "normal" Windows that was bought separately.
I'm up in ABQ. MIxed bag of hippies and non-hippies up here. 40 minutes north it's hippie central ;)
Albuquerque scares me as much as Chicago where I originally came from. We get the news feeds. Too dang many drunk drivers and gang shootings. Here we just have the occasional bum burning his partner on the side of the road. I think you have a corpse of ours up there now being looked at by the coroner. But you do have some decent resteraunts up there so I am envious of that. All we have is fast food joints unless you go to Las Cruces.
kiwi_2005
03-07-10, 06:32 PM
Windows can, however, stop working because you changed a hard drive or swapped out a graphics card. And if it's not the first time, you'll have to call Microsoft and plead your case before they will deign to let you resume using it. You cite Windows Genuine Advantage as a reason we should be okay with Ubi's far more draconian system. I cite Windows Genuine Advantage as the primary reason that I have not purchased a piece of Microsoft software since XP.
OEM versions of Windows dont have this problem, change some hddware no reactivation needed. Ive changed hddware over the years and never had to reactivate. In fact windows activation never had to go through all that crap with OEM, unless it just does it without me knowing. Retail windows though i hear is nothing but a pain in the ass if it fails. Plus OEM versions you can throw on more than one computer without needing a license. Otherwise i would be in sht creek with MS but both pcs get updates and pass the genuine check. OEM :rock:
Bubblehead Nuke
03-07-10, 07:15 PM
Ahhh, but there is more to the Microsoft Saga..
You all know WGA..
.. But they have a NEW three letter combo for you...
......WAT, otherwise known as "Windows Activation Technology"
Now, every 90 days YOU have to resubmitt to the Microsoft servers a request to validate your authenticity. If you do not pass muster you are flagged a pirate and you get this annoying black screen with dire soul crushing news that you are running illegal software.
This software is self healing (thus you can not just glitch it to break it), goes around any firewall blocks you may invoke, and makes changes to your system without your authorization.
Right now it is not mandatory and it is limited to Windows 7. In the past when you had to verify you were 'Genuine' a simple WGA is all you have to pass. Now you have to have a WAT pass as well.
It is only a matter of time before it is backported to Vista.
They made their money off of XP so they do not really care if you pirate it now. Time will force you to update to a newer OS as new games, utilities and other things come out that just no longer work on the older software.
antikristuseke
03-07-10, 08:09 PM
WGA was first bypassed in less than 24 hours in its early iteration, WAT will be broken rapidly meaning you, as a payign customer, can too turn that ****box off.
Kazuaki Shimazaki II
03-08-10, 12:31 AM
DRM and the Future
Consider one last example of a protection method which has been subject to similar levels of hysteria and misinformation, and which every legitimate Windows user has installed on their system right now:
Yes, WPA is a very early form of DRM - presumably one of the reasons Microsoft didn't push its luck too far and kept it mild. However, as it is, I'm sure a major reason people bit the bullet is because they are all already entrapped in the Windows system, a factor that won't be for a game, nor does people's acceptance of it mean it is good, or proper, or anything ofr the matter.
As of the end of February 2010, Windows XP is the most widely used operating system in the world with a 58.4% market share, having peaked at 76.1% in January 2007. Support for XP from Microsoft will go on until 2013. I have it on all my comps as either standard XP or XP 64 bit. No way I will "upgrade" to any other OS until XP expires, and maybe not even then. I have NO doubt that WAT will be hacked quite quickly. Microsoft continuously underestimates the intelligence of it's users.
Considering software is still being written to XP, I doubt very much there is a worry about software compatibility. It takes a LONG time for an OS to be backwards incompatible with software. Heck, I have SH3 running on two comps with 64 bit operating systems and it runs super fast. What WILL be necessary to upgrade is HARDWARE. Games are being written to more and more advanced hardware specs and that's where the upgrading will be needed. That is, if you BUY those hardware-intensive games. With the hardware I have right now I can run the most hardware-intensive games at at least medium settings. But I don't really have any interest in those games. Most are 1st person shooters.
As to SHV, I think Ubi's "master plan" is to sell the game to as many people as possible that will buy it for it's current $50 price. When they reach a certain profit point, they will come out with a patch that will eliminate the need to be online to play. The hacks that are out there right now are all flawed because they don't give full functionality to the game.
Of course, it's still early and a new hack may come out that does give full functionality. You never know. But it's costing Ubisoft money to run those online servers and it's just a matter of time before the expense of running the servers outweighs their usefulness in preventing piracy. Plus we've already seen where the servers crashed and THAT does not make for happy users. The negative feelings from loyal SH3 and 4 users certainly isn't helping Ubi's cause. I have no doubt there are some that are so peed off about the online situation that they won't buy SH5 no matter if Ubi takes the online requirement out or not. And I sure don't blame them.
XabbaRus
03-08-10, 11:29 AM
@Xabba
If you get Windows together with your computer (I believe it's called an OEM version) than this Windows will only install on the system with which it was delivered. If you change some major hardware this Windows won't recognise your computer any more and therefore won't install.
This does not happen with a "normal" Windows that was bought separately.
Well I must dispute this as the XP I have is the OEM type (comes on the recovery disk) and this was for both the laptop and my desktop and it installed no bother. The OEM one installed no problem on my other laptop, as I said I took the serial number from the knackered laptop and used that.
Worked no problem.
krashkart
03-08-10, 01:51 PM
Windows can, however, stop working because you changed a hard drive or swapped out a graphics card. And if it's not the first time, you'll have to call Microsoft and plead your case before they will deign to let you resume using it.
I had to call Microsoft once after swapping in a new drive just days after making a clean install of XP. Naturally they wanted to know why I was trying to activate so soon after the first, and my response was simply that my old drive had failed. No further questions, and I was able to reactivate immediately. What keeps me from upgrading to a newer Windows is cost. :DL
As for the Ubisoft approach to DRM, I probably won't be buying anything that requires a steady internet connection, simply because I don't like being tied to the internet unless I am actually using it (like right now). It's unfair, though, that the many are paying for the actions of a few rotten eggs. :salute:
Catfish
03-09-10, 09:26 AM
Hello,
the day they develop games and good sims for Linux, i will instantly and gladly refrain from the Window$ DLL hell, the bloody "registry" and this activation crap.
:rock:
Up to then most games and "sims" will anyway only run on Sony, Nintendo and MS consoles.
Greetings,
Catfish
VipertheSniper
03-09-10, 09:49 AM
As for the Ubisoft approach to DRM, I probably won't be buying anything that requires a steady internet connection, simply because I don't like being tied to the internet unless I am actually using it (like right now). It's unfair, though, that the many are paying for the actions of a few rotten eggs. :salute:
In case of SH5 it's probably the case that the many are paying for the actions of a few rotten eggs, but if you look at more popular games it's actually the other way round. Not that I like the scheme Ubisoft implemented, but piracy on the PC is a huge problem, Ubi could've chosen a better way to go about it though.
Hmmm....do these sub sims not work on Linux? I would gladly switch to that OS rather than Win 7.
Fincuan
03-09-10, 11:26 AM
Hmmm....do these sub sims not work on Linux? I would gladly switch to that OS rather than Win 7.
The recent commercial ones don't, at least as far as I know none has managed to get SH4 working properly. SH5 doesn't even seem to work properly on Windows so that's probably another no-no.
SH3 should work with Wine if Starforce is taken care of, and then there's Danger from the Deep (http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/)
The commercial ones don't. As far as I know none has managed to get SH3 or 4 working properly. SH5 doesn't even seem to work properly on Windows so that's probably another no-no.
Danger from the Deep is your only choice:
http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/
Drat! So we are stuck with Windows as the OS. :x
Fincuan
03-09-10, 11:36 AM
I just edited the above post to include new info. In short SH3 and Danger from the Deep should work, the other ones don't.
I just edited the above post to include new info. In short SH3 and Danger from the Deep should work, the other ones don't.
Well that's something at least. :up:
krashkart
03-10-10, 04:45 AM
Hmmm....do these sub sims not work on Linux? I would gladly switch to that OS rather than Win 7.
You could always try running an SH in WINE. It won't run everything Windows, but the project has been in active development for years with steady improvements. Saw a YouTube the other day showing Mirror's Edge in WINE. Looked like it ran pretty smoothly.
You could always try running an SH in WINE. It won't run everything Windows, but the project has been in active development for years with steady improvements. Saw a YouTube the other day showing Mirror's Edge in WINE. Looked like it ran pretty smoothly.
Do you think SH5 will run in it?
krashkart
03-10-10, 06:47 PM
@Deputy
Couldn't hurt to try. The WINE project maintains a list of programs that run. Here's the AppDB:
http://appdb.winehq.org/
And the main project website:
http://www.winehq.org/
My Linux buddy just fired me this link to results for SH5. Someone's trying it already:
http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=19549
EDIT:
My buddy doesn't seem to think the new DRM scheme would go well with it. *shrug*
@Deputy
Couldn't hurt to try. The WINE project maintains a list of programs that run. Here's the AppDB:
http://appdb.winehq.org/
And the main project website:
http://www.winehq.org/
My Linux buddy just fired me this link to results for SH5. Someone's trying it already:
http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=19549
EDIT:
My buddy doesn't seem to think the new DRM scheme would go well with it. *shrug*
Yeah, that DRM is proving to be a real fly in the ointment :nope:
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