What does elenaiba say...

[urfisch]

...to all this critiscm? I recently bought it due to modding wants. Havent played it yet, but i read all this negative vibes from objective members here...who havent complained about the game before and are now deeply upset with it.

I thought about, what do you think on all this? As a man.

[Gunnodayak]

...to all this critiscm? I recently bought it due to modding wants. Havent played it yet, but i read all this negative vibes from objective members here...who havent complained about the game before and are now deeply upset with it.

I thought about, what do you think on all this? As a man.
Don't expect a straight answer, don't be naive ...

[Sonarman]

He would probably say that his nickname is spelled elanaiba not elenaiba! But he's probably too busy fixing things to say anything right now.

[Gunnodayak]

He would probably say that his nickname is spelled elanaiba not elenaiba! But he's probably too busy fixing things to say anything right now.
:har: Yes, I bet he is very busy right now working ... Actually, right about now he is very busy trying to convince people that the DRM is still alive. This is his major problem now, his number on epriority now, on "DRM has failed (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=163074)" thread:
"That is not a full crack, the game won't work as intended." elenaiba
Defending the nest, the hands that feeds you principles ...

[Tomi_099]

:hmmm: I think he says it's all a matter of time and money, and the time did not!

[Gunnodayak]

:hmmm: I think he says it's all a matter of time and money, and the time did not!
Every time I see The Grey Wolves related images I realize again who are the ones that deserves praise and respect.

[MGR1]

Although I haven't bought SH5, I think that, generally, people need to be very, very careful how they phrase things when criticizing/offering feedback.

Yes, it does seem that, like SH4, SH5 is another unfinished game, for various reasons.

Yes, people are going to have their hopes raised and then dashed because X, Y and Z aren't in the game or have been poorly implemented.

Yes, people are going to vent their frustration.

Constant negative "vibes" are going to be counterproductive.

Keep doing this and elanaiba and the other devs are going to develop a "seige mentality", if they haven't already developed one!

A lot of what seems to have occured with SH5 (and this is my own view) is due to time. The devs probably pitched the new features to the publishers, but either weren't given a realistic time schedule, or something happened during the developement phase - something must have taken longer than planned. This put other things behind, which has had an impact on the game as released.

Perhaps, the beta-testers are too close to the design process to give cold, hard constructive feedback to give the devs an impartial view of a game they have been working with near constantly.

If you are doing that, as in being so close you "can't see the wood for the trees" and can't take a step back and view utterly impartially, of course things are going to be missed. Perhaps a lack of fresh eyes ,as it were, hampers tha design process?

Who knows.

Either way, it's clear that, as it currently stands, the game ain't that good. Hopefully, patches and mods will go a long way to fixing things, but we'll see if SH5 survives the negativity.

So the moral is, be careful how you say things. Think long and hard before hitting the keyboard!

Just a thought,

Mike.

[Gunnodayak]

Keep doing this and elanaiba and the other devs are going to develop a "seige mentality", if they haven't already developed one!


Please ...The devs are not some saints, they are not some kind of martyrs either. They have good qualities and they have some bad ones. One of my bad qualities is that I may not be so diplomatic as the average guy here, but still, I am not trying to insult anyone. The devs simply must take responsibility for their products. Unless you are seeing them as fragile as Barbie puppets, or some china. They are supposed to be men. I am still waiting to find out if they really are.

[jwilliams]

I would say that he is here to read feed back and to read what problems we are having with the game.

He's not here to be insulted and flamed.

And the fact that he is here at all. Shows that he cares about this game and about subsim member.

[IpseDixit]

Well, obviously he's too preoccupied doing swan dives into his Olympic-size swimming pool filled with gold coins (Scrooge McDuck-style) and cackling fiendishly to answer your question right away!

[urfisch]

ubi is responsable...not the devs. cause the devs could say anything they want...if ubi doesnt take it, it cant be progressed. simply that way. i didnt think it was the devs idea to make the game like that...and if so, it was the project leader, who decided. but i think it was an order from ubi hq, to make things like they are now...also the tight timeline. ubi needed to release the game for better finance data for the 1st quarter 2010...and still use the bad weather to sell the game better. if they waited til april or may...the sun would have decreased the selling.

this is the way it goes...

[MGR1]

Please ...Don't victimize the devs, they are not some kind of martyrs. They simply must take responsability for their products. Unless you are seeing them as fragile as Barbie puppets, or some china. They are supposed to be men. I am still waiting to find out if they really are.

Yes, but remember that the devs are "human beings" with all the frailties therof.

I would be very easy to provoke them into throwing a strop and telling us all to **** off.

Yes, we all have to take criticism, and some people take it better than others.

Yes, they may have to offer an explanation of some sort - IF they are allowed to do so!

As you and elanaiba seem to have a history, it would seem likely that, you, personally, are less likely to get an answer out of him.

You are allowed to have your views, as do I.

Let's agree to disagree on this one, shall we?;)

I've no desire to get involved a forum politics or have an argument with someone.

Mike.:)

[Gunnodayak]

I would be very easy to provoke them into throwing a strop and telling us all to **** off.



Let's agree to disagree on this one, shall we?;)

I agree to disagree with you, Mike! Really. And I also agree to agree with you in some respects. But about they telling us to .... They are not making me or anyone else's here a favor. No, they can't do that, because that would mean lower sales, they will affect UBI's image. So, they are not doing that because they don't feel the need to do that, but only because they are not allowed to.

[piri_reis]

Hey Gunnodayak, why do you even come to this forum?

Do we have to see you bitch every day..
And what with the hate towards your own people..
Cut it out, it looks terrible from the outside..
The devs don't need your great criticism, we don't need it.

[Gunnodayak]

Hey Gunnodayak, why do you even come to this forum?

Do we have to see you bitch every day..
And what with the hate towards your own people..
Cut it out, it looks terrible from the outside..
The devs don't need your great criticism, we don't need it.
It seems that you, mate, don't have the required manners to post on this forum. I do, maybe you should learn from me how to speak and how to choose your words.
Maybe some moderator should see these words you've just spoken to me.

[JU_88]

...to all this critiscm? I recently bought it due to modding wants. Havent played it yet, but i read all this negative vibes from objective members here...who havent complained about the game before and are now deeply upset with it.

I thought about, what do you think on all this? As a man.

Who/where are these objective members who are so upset? apart from GRs well written assesment Ive not seen anyone really upset with it.
If anything there was much more negativity here before it got released.

Most who have played it voted it as being a good game but in need of work.
And I think Dan could use a little break no?

[piri_reis]

It seems that you, mate, don't have the required manners to belong to this forum. I do, maybe you should learn from me how to speak and how to choose your words.
Maybe some moderator should see these words you've just spoken to me.

:haha: You're all manners mate. Keep at it, we shall see the result.

[IanC]

Who/where are these objective members who are so upset? apart from GRs well written assesment Ive not seen anyone really upset with it.
If anything there was much more negativity here before it got released.

Most who have played it voted it as being a good game but in need of work.
And I think Dan could use a little break no?

Umm... are you reading the same threads I am?

[JU_88]

Umm... are you reading the same threads I am?

I guess not :haha:, been too busy with my new born child these past few days :DL, have only had chance to catch up now, is it really that bad? :oops:

[elanaiba]

...to all this critiscm? I recently bought it due to modding wants. Havent played it yet, but i read all this negative vibes from objective members here...who havent complained about the game before and are now deeply upset with it.

I thought about, what do you think on all this? As a man.

Well, I cannot post everything that I could say, indeed. But still:

Negative Feedback received about Silent Hunter generally fits into the following categories:

A - wrong expectations (some thing are just not in the scope of sh5)
B - legitimate concerns about bugs and unfinished features - Most are NOT news to me, since I have a list bigger than the forum. Trust me, you cannot match my expectations - but then again, the same could be said by most of the serious, passionate game developers out there.
C - legitimate concerns about some design choices - like for example the interface. Part of these I can understand, but I am not that concerned since most can be fixed easily by modding. Getting a SH4 style interface back in the game is very easy.

As I was saying in another thread, I have no reservations that WITH TIME (equal patches + mods) this will be THE ONLY SUBSIM TO PLAY. Calling this game arcade is wrong, its no more arcade than SH3 or 4. Calling this an RPG is partly wrong, is simply as simulation as the games before but with an extra layer of RPG like crew development.

I am not at all happy with the current state of the RPG parts (long story) but:
a) nobody is forcing people to use them
b) they can be modded into something more realistic

I will stand by the concept of the RPG parts any day, because I have read enough books to understand that some things that happen in war are simply not justified by technical specifications and field manuals. At some point the man is the one that matters the most.

Before I close this down, I have two more things to say:

1) Ubisoft is a company, of which Ubisoft Romania is a part. Please stop separating the two. Not everything that is good is our merit, not everything that is bad is "the suits" fault. I, of all people, have my parts in the failures of SH5. The people "high up" could have simply decided not to do another SH, just as you guys can choose not to buy.

2) Please stop trying to create a war / antagonism between modders and devs, we need each other.

So, for my final statement of the day, NO, I am not happy with the state of SH5. Of course, except for SH3 - which was not perfect either - I have never been happy with the release of any of my projects.

I have much trust in the potential of SH5, but I am not a fortune teller. Did I quit my job after the launch? No. Am I not a man? I wonder.

People might not buy the game, miss on fun, and not suffer any problems that the game has at the moment. But for the guys that did invest their trust in us, I'd say they need us here.

Yes, Gunnodayak, it took me time to write this long answer, and I waited for the lunchbreak in order not to disturb my current work assignments.

[urfisch]

this is an answer, as i exspected.

:up:

i appreciate your honesty, very much!!! thanks a lot for this answer. i really trust in your efforts, dan. we never met, but to the last subsim meetings...i heard youre really nice guy. i believe in that. please stay in close contact to the community here.

:yep:

as we need to mod the game...is there any manual coming, concerning the mod tools? i bought it, although i first didnt wanted to. but i see the potential of this game...and i want to mod it. but we modders need some more explaination on the tools.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Thank you for this quite honest post.
:up:

[piri_reis]

Dan is here answering things, taking responsibility and being honest.
Not everybody can do this, I respect your actions and thank you Dan.
It might be a long road, but not giving up before trying :up:

[Yskonyn]

An honest reply, Ela.
I work in the aviation sector, where people always have an opinion about everything as well, despite most of them don't know what they're talking about.
Being a game dev is rather similar in that respect I guess. Did I quit my job yet? No, certainly not and I am glad to see you didn't either.

People are just that way, especially on the net. They have this urge to write their opinion, make their voice heard.

Of course you will find valid statements often as well, no doubt. But there's a lot of yelling going on by people with little understanding of the matter (look at politics, aviation, development, you name it).

Nobody wants to bite the hand that feeds them, nor should you. I think your honest statement is appreciated and while, of course in all honesty it is questionable as to why it should be this way, let's just hope the community will unite once again to make this a kick-a$$ game!

[ichso]

It seems that you, mate, don't have the required manners to post on this forum. I do, maybe you should learn from me how to speak and how to choose your words.
Maybe some moderator should see these words you've just spoken to me.

And crying for moderators when no personal insults where made is showing good manners ? :06:

[Méo]

I guess not :haha:, been too busy with my new born child these past few days :DL, have only had chance to catch up now, is it really that bad? :oops:

Congrats! :up:

is it really that bad? :oops:

Of course people had a very high expectations, SH5 is still unfinished...
But when I compare to both SH4 and SH3 on release, then it's not that bad, I would even say it's a bit better.

Of course there's a lot of hysteria...

[Gunnodayak]

So, for my final statement of the day, NO, I am not happy with the state of SH5. Of course, except for SH3 - which was not perfect either - I have never been happy with the release of any of my projects.

Yes, Gunnodayak, it took me time to write this long answer, and I waited for the lunchbreak in order not to disturb my current work assignments.
A decent answer, congrats! Maybe some of your colleagues should do that as well. But there's a tricky part in your answer, as well, I've noticed it. You are saying that you are not happy all the time with your projects, and you want to put the emphasis on the fact that you are a perfectionist, not on the fact that the SH5 game may be disastrous.
Anyway, it's better than nothing, after this message I may be not so aggressive with your little SH5 game. This pseudo "mea culpa" is welcomed.

[IanC]

Takes a brass pair to be that honest. Gotta respect that.

[Gunnodayak]

And crying for moderators when no personal insults where made is showing good manners ? :06:
If for you
"Hey Gunnodayak, why do you even come to this forum?

Do we have to see you bitch every day..
And what with the hate towards your own people..
Cut it out, it looks terrible from the outside..
The devs don't need your great criticism, we don't need it."
is not a personal insult ... I have nothing more to say.

[ParaB]

Takes a brass pair to be that honest. Gotta respect that.

/this.

Speaks volumes of the man.

:yep:

[tonyj]

I wondered if we refunded this game whether it would send a message to Dan's managers that this release state is unacceptable.

what does everyone think?

[tonyj]

thanks also Dan for your honesty.

[himlaviz]

I have hopes that SH5 will be better for each patch that is released and later with mods it will probably surpass SH3/GWX3.

When designing a game/simulation I am sure there is a lot of critical decisions (thanks to limited time, resources and budget) to be made and perhaps leave some stuff open for modding and concentrate on the stuff that has the greatest impact for all players of these type of games.

I don't see it as a cheap way for UBI to get away from putting every wish into the game but it's rather a bold step of a publisher to allow modding (and make it easy and also make tools for it) and there is two sides of this hobby, those who love to purely play and those who love to play as much as they like to be creative and make great mods for a great game/platform.

I had a rough start with SH5, felt the tutorial was bit limited but I got through it and the rest is about learning the game (and not expect everything to be just a upgraded graphics engine for SH3), will most likely run into bugs as I dive deeper ;)

Thanks for the honest post elanaiba.

[Gunnodayak]

By the way, has anyone of you heard of a beautiful song played by Thin Lizzy, "Honesty Is No Excuse"? I am still trying to see if it is, in this particular instance.

[Sonarman]

By the way, has anyone of you heard of a beautiful song played by Thin Lizzy, "Honesty Is No Excuse"? I am still trying to see if it is, in this particular instance.

Yes, I have it on my shelf right here next to "Don't rain on my parade" by the Ubisoft male voice choir.

Thank you for your honesty Dan, I am sure you will in time make SH5 what it should have been on release and thanks for the great mod tools.

[Galanti]

C - legitimate concerns about some design choices - like for example the interface. Part of these I can understand, but I am not that concerned since most can be fixed easily by modding. Getting a SH4 style interface back in the game is very easy.

This is my major gripe, but I say that knowing that in time, it will be remedied, just like the bugs. The difficult part is the waiting, I was hoping to dive into the game out of the box.

Elanaiba, I appreciated your response. Very principled and courageous.

[Gunnodayak]

Yes, I have it on my shelf right here next to "Don't rain on my parade" by the Ubisoft male voice choir
I bet the song you are mentioning it have the required potential to be a hit on the music charts!:)

[Sonarman]

I bet the song you are mentioning it have the required potential to be a hit on the music charts!:)

Judging by your recent posts I'm sure you'd prefer a castratii version!

[Gunnodayak]

Judging by your recent posts I'm sure you'd prefer a castratii version!
No, really ... I don't have something particular against the dev team or UBI as a whole. We are the only ones to blame, because we've bought the game, the previews were very clear. The only think I expect is some honesty from the devs. I am not sure that the game can be modded and turned into a simulator, but I hope. Very little, but I do. That's why I am making such a fuss, to wake them up a little from their dreams. Alexandru Gris (the project manager) has taken me as a fool and told me: "You'll be amazed by this game!!!", just a couple of weeks before the release. That was one thing that annoyed me, to be taken as a fool. If he would have said to me: "OK, sucker, this game is crap, we know that, we are trying to sell it to casual players, but maybe in time we will manage to put the game on its feet somehow, but not now, you must understand that we need money first and maybe only after that, art and principles", I swear that I would have been totally on silent running on this forum. This kind of approach is good when you are speaking to a 10 years old child, when you are trying to fool him, it was not suitable for me. So, I feel ripped off in some degree. Don't accuse me for that.

[JU_88]

Well, I cannot post everything that I could say, indeed. But still:

Negative Feedback received about Silent Hunter generally fits into the following categories:

A - wrong expectations (some thing are just not in the scope of sh5)
B - legitimate concerns about bugs and unfinished features - Most are NOT news to me, since I have a list bigger than the forum. Trust me, you cannot match my expectations - but then again, the same could be said by most of the serious, passionate game developers out there.
C - legitimate concerns about some design choices - like for example the interface. Part of these I can understand, but I am not that concerned since most can be fixed easily by modding. Getting a SH4 style interface back in the game is very easy.

As I was saying in another thread, I have no reservations that WITH TIME (equal patches + mods) this will be THE ONLY SUBSIM TO PLAY. Calling this game arcade is wrong, its no more arcade than SH3 or 4. Calling this an RPG is partly wrong, is simply as simulation as the games before but with an extra layer of RPG like crew development.

I am not at all happy with the current state of the RPG parts (long story) but:
a) nobody is forcing people to use them
b) they can be modded into something more realistic

I will stand by the concept of the RPG parts any day, because I have read enough books to understand that some things that happen in war are simply not justified by technical specifications and field manuals. At some point the man is the one that matters the most.

Before I close this down, I have two more things to say:

1) Ubisoft is a company, of which Ubisoft Romania is a part. Please stop separating the two. Not everything that is good is our merit, not everything that is bad is "the suits" fault. I, of all people, have my parts in the failures of SH5. The people "high up" could have simply decided not to do another SH, just as you guys can choose not to buy.

2) Please stop trying to create a war / antagonism between modders and devs, we need each other.

So, for my final statement of the day, NO, I am not happy with the state of SH5. Of course, except for SH3 - which was not perfect either - I have never been happy with the release of any of my projects.

I have much trust in the potential of SH5, but I am not a fortune teller. Did I quit my job after the launch? No. Am I not a man? I wonder.

People might not buy the game, miss on fun, and not suffer any problems that the game has at the moment. But for the guys that did invest their trust in us, I'd say they need us here.

Yes, Gunnodayak, it took me time to write this long answer, and I waited for the lunchbreak in order not to disturb my current work assignments.


- Respect :up:

[Yskonyn]

Maybe its our dreams, Gunno. What makes you think they dream instead of knowing exactly where the game stands now and will stand after some time due to patching?

Publisher deadlines have been killers for many games before. Some games recovered, some did not.
SH3 did for certain and to a lesser extent SH4 did as well. So why shouldn't SH5 recover as well? We do have a strong community here which have produced some wonderful work before.

The only thing you could ask is why do we have to put up with unfinished games these days? But the next question is wether that's the devs or the publisher's fault?
It's the publisher's in most cases.

[Méo]

That's why I am making such a fuss, to wake them up a little from their dreams.

Ok, because they need your enlightenment. :o

[longam]

No, really ... I don't have something particular against the dev team or UBI as a whole. We are the only ones to blame, because we've bought the game,

Is your dispenser empty again? I'll have housekeeping fill it right away!

[Gunnodayak]

Ok, because they need your enlightenment. :o
I am sure they need that, if only just for being more grateful to you, the ones that supports them unconditionally! I can take the position of the "bad" guy, if you want that, even if I am not.

[Tomi_099]

Well, I cannot post everything that I could say, indeed. But still:

Negative Feedback received about Silent Hunter generally fits into the following categories:

A - wrong expectations (some thing are just not in the scope of sh5)
B - legitimate concerns about bugs and unfinished features - Most are NOT news to me, since I have a list bigger than the forum. Trust me, you cannot match my expectations - but then again, the same could be said by most of the serious, passionate game developers out there.
C - legitimate concerns about some design choices - like for example the interface. Part of these I can understand, but I am not that concerned since most can be fixed easily by modding. Getting a SH4 style interface back in the game is very easy.

As I was saying in another thread, I have no reservations that WITH TIME (equal patches + mods) this will be THE ONLY SUBSIM TO PLAY. Calling this game arcade is wrong, its no more arcade than SH3 or 4. Calling this an RPG is partly wrong, is simply as simulation as the games before but with an extra layer of RPG like crew development.

I am not at all happy with the current state of the RPG parts (long story) but:
a) nobody is forcing people to use them
b) they can be modded into something more realistic

I will stand by the concept of the RPG parts any day, because I have read enough books to understand that some things that happen in war are simply not justified by technical specifications and field manuals. At some point the man is the one that matters the most.

Before I close this down, I have two more things to say:

1) Ubisoft is a company, of which Ubisoft Romania is a part. Please stop separating the two. Not everything that is good is our merit, not everything that is bad is "the suits" fault. I, of all people, have my parts in the failures of SH5. The people "high up" could have simply decided not to do another SH, just as you guys can choose not to buy.

2) Please stop trying to create a war / antagonism between modders and devs, we need each other.

So, for my final statement of the day, NO, I am not happy with the state of SH5. Of course, except for SH3 - which was not perfect either - I have never been happy with the release of any of my projects.

I have much trust in the potential of SH5, but I am not a fortune teller. Did I quit my job after the launch? No. Am I not a man? I wonder.

People might not buy the game, miss on fun, and not suffer any problems that the game has at the moment. But for the guys that did invest their trust in us, I'd say they need us here.

Yes, Gunnodayak, it took me time to write this long answer, and I waited for the lunchbreak in order not to disturb my current work assignments.
-----------------------------




2) Please stop trying to create a war / antagonism between modders and devs, we need each other.

So, for my final statement of the day, NO, I am not happy with the state of SH5. Of course, except for SH3 - which was not perfect either - I have never been happy with the release of any of my projects.



My friend, you're right.

I do not see it all so negative.
I recall that created by a mod, and have incorporated it into the game.
That brings a lot of work and patience, these efforts to realize.
Then one sees what has created and suddenly remembers that one has not achieved the goal of what I wanted to achieve.

Why should this not be another case of our friends.
It's always a learning process we are engaged.

With such a complex work of SH5 simulation, I take my hat:salute:
What the guys have done in the short time.
This is a tremendous achievement.
Even a beginning of the expansion of the New Silent Hunter generation.

But I do not know a single game that has no errors.:timeout:
This gives us again the occasion a Patsch get

And maybe the possibility of getting an ADD ON.:hmmm:

That means we are not at the end, we are at the beginning
A simulation of a lot more offers than SH3 or SH4.
Now really is not yet aware of us because we are too much
To see the visual. But under the hood that can much more
When we think.

----------


Mein Freund du hast recht.

Ich sehe das alles nicht so negativ.
Ich erinnere die, die ein Mod. erschaffen haben, und es in das Game eingebaut haben.
Das es sehr viel Arbeit und Geduld bringt diese Anstrengungen zu realisieren.
Dann Sieht man das was man erschaffen hat und merkt auf einmal das man das Ziel nicht erreicht hat was man erreichen wollte.
Warum soll das Bei unseren Freunden nicht anderes sein.
Es ist immer wieder ein Lernprozess der uns beschäftigt.

Bei so einer Komplexen Arbeit der SH5 Simulation, ziehe ich meinen Hut
Was die Jungs in der kurzen Zeit geleistet haben.
Das ist einen Enorme Leistung.
Auch ein Begin der Erweiterung der Neuen Silent Hunter Generation.

Ich aber kenne kein einziges Spiel das keine Fehler hat.
Das gibt uns wieder die Gelegenheit einen Patsch zu bekommen

Und vielleicht die Möglichkeit einen ADD ON zu bekommen.
Das bedeutet wir sind nicht am Ende, wir sind am Anfang

Einer Simulation die Wesentlich mehr bietet als SH3 oder SH4.
Nun so richtig ist uns das noch nicht bewusst weil wir uns zu sehr
An das Optische fesseln. Aber unter der Haube kann das viel mehr
Als wir denken.

[ichso]

If for you
"Hey Gunnodayak, why do you even come to this forum?

Do we have to see you bitch every day..
And what with the hate towards your own people..
Cut it out, it looks terrible from the outside..
The devs don't need your great criticism, we don't need it."
is not a personal insult ... I have nothing more to say.
I would have called it complaining, not insulting.
Maybe we have a different understanding of those term then.

[Gunnodayak]

I would have called it complaining, not insulting.
Maybe we have a different understanding of those term then.
OK, if this is complaining, let's make some imagination exercise in which I will "complain" regarding yourself calling you "bitch".
How does it sounds? OK?

[urfisch]

OK, if this is complaining, I will "complain" regarding yourself calling you "bitch".
What does it sounds? OK?

please stop this personal discussion!!! ok? otherwise i will report these posts...this thread is intented to be a serious discussion about the dev/modder/player sections and their thoughts.

thank you, Gunnodayak

[jwilliams]

OK, if this is complaining, let's make some imagination exercise in which I will "complain" regarding yourself calling you "bitch".
How does it sounds? OK?


In the English language "bitch" can mean many things.

in the term it was used, it was meant as moan \ complain

i dont think he was calling you a bitch.

[Gunnodayak]

please stop this personal discussion!!! ok? otherwise i will report these posts...this thread is intented to be a serious discussion about the dev/modder/player sections and their thoughts.

thank you, Gunnodayak
OK, urfish, you're welcome, I have nothing else to add in this thread except in the situation somebody will attack me.

[Sonarman]

While I support Dan & the devs wholeheartedly and I am sure Dan will make good on his stated goals as he did in SH4, looking at the situation objectively the bottom line is that someone at Ubisoft Romania should have stood up and said "look the game is not read to ship yet, we need more time". And someone at HQ should have said "yes let's do what our CEO Yves Guillemot proclaimed so loudly in the press recently and ensure we take more time to get things right and ship quality products".

I'm very glad that Ubisoft is not in the aviation industry, "oh we'll ship the Airbus 320 now and fix any bugs that crop up later!"

[Barso]

I know I am new here and my opinion may not mean as much as some of the veterans but I think it's great that one of the devs has posted here.
I think we all know how much pressure these guys are put under from publishers.
I am sure they would love all the time they need to make the game that they want to but as with everything in life, tIme is always against us.
Surely with some patches the game will be fantastic and make it the only subsim to own. That's why I am willing to be patient.
The only thing that annoys me is why has my CE not shipped yet from amazon and why do the CE's of games nowadays seem similar to how PC games used to be released?
I used to love going to the shops to buy the big boxed, big thick manuals, maps and keyboard layouts of old.

[ichso]

OK, if this is complaining, let's make some imagination exercise in which I will "complain" regarding yourself calling you "bitch".
How does it sounds? OK?

See, thats where you cross the line from a complaint to an insult ;)

If somebody says that he is annoyed by somebody else for whatever reason than its just like this.
If he inserts a word like bitch somewhere in his complaints it goes from the more or less meaningful information of being annoyed to a personal insult.
I don't see whats there not to get :doh:

EDIT: But we probably shouldn't divert this thread from the original topic anymore.

[Sonarman]

and make it the only subsim to own. That's why I am willing to be patient.
The only thing that annoys me is why has my CE not shipped yet from amazon and why do the CE's of games nowadays seem similar to how PC games used to be released?
.

Hi Barso, assuming you are in the UK, it looks like Amazon may ship today as I checked my order this morining and it reads "dispatching soon"

Note also that the original SH (about 14 years ago) cost £50 in the UK that's why the CE's of todays games are similar to how PC games used to be released it's down to price

[Gunnodayak]

But we probably shouldn't divert this thread from the original topic anymore.
I agree with that. And by the way, I was just proposing an exercise of imagination, that thing didn't happened for real, remember? So don't tell me that I've crossed some line, I am often very close to that line, but I am not crossing it. I am just balancing on the edge sometimes and it's not easy every time, but I've learned my lesson.

[zakarpatska]

The devs simply must take responsibility for their products. Unless you are seeing them as fragile as Barbie puppets, or some china. They are supposed to be men. I am still waiting to find out if they really are.

As someone who works in software development I can tell you it is not the devs that have responsibility for the code - it is the software managers. The devs write the code, but it is the managers that determine which features go in (or out), whether the devs work on bug fixes for legacy prodcuts or new development, schedule, release process, quality levels that need to be achieved prior to release, managing the team by getting rid of developers that are not performing up to expectations, etc.

It seems to me your are putting a lot responsibility on the devs for things that they have no control over. I doubt the developers made the decision to go with OSP.

[ichso]

I agree with that. And by the way, I was just proposing an exercise of imagination, that thing didn't happened for real, remember? So don't tell me that I've crossed some line, I am often very close to that line, but I am not crossing it. I am just balancing on the edge sometimes and it's not easy every time, but I've learned my lesson.
I don't feel insulted.
The "you" in my sentence was of general nature. I should've written "where one crosses the line" instead of "you".

[Catfish]

Hello,
first thanks to Elanaiba. It took some backbone to stand up and give some feedback in such a way :cool:

While i am not too delighted of how SHV looks now, it sure is a complete new idea/concept on how to handle a boat in a simulator from the viewpoint of a captain. All new ideas will need some time to a) understand them and b) accept that they are new, and therefore not perfect yet.

Like Dan I still think that SH3 was the "best" of the series, when it comes to being nice just out of the box, but - as Dan said - it was not perfect also.
When you compare the original SH3 to what was done in numerous mods like from Teddybear or the GWX team, you will not recognize it again - but it took the better part of 2 years to have a first big mod where several add-ons and patches were included.

Regarding SHV:
Just criticizing that you cannot see the course or change it in a glimpse of a second does not mean it's not realistic. Remember you HAD to ask your IWO or whoever what the course was, if you did not go to the gyrocompass in the control room, or a repeater station yourself - and then you told the appropriate officer to change course etc., and then mostly like "20 degrees more to the right" and such.

You also had to ask your machinist how much fuel was left, and what he proposed to still fulfill a mission at a given speed, and if it was something like getting home with the rest. He would then tell you whether he would advise to have one attack run left in his tanks, until the mission had to be aborted for returning due to lacking fuel.
Reaching the patrol area with only 1/2 tanks left will not let you much leeway until you did not go in with a speed of 18 knots/hour.
Looking at the fuel gauge is certainly possible in the sim, but not from every station - like it was.
This may seem unpractical and can surely be modelled in, but it is not unrealistic at all in the vanilla version.

That there are only 3 people instead of 5 on the bridge for lookout is NOT realistic. Friendly U-boats have not even one man on the bridge. The dialogues repeat themselves etc. etc..
The devs themselves are still working on it and Dan said he was not happy with some company decisions either. Who ever worked in any company will understand him lol. But i'm sure he's on "our" side, when it comes to making the sim better.
Just calm down a bit, and see things realistic :salute:

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

[Gunnodayak]

I don't feel insulted.
The "you" in my sentence was of general nature. I should've written "where one crosses the line" instead of "you".
That's OK, anyway. I am not a native english speaker, so sometimes I am getting lost in translation.

[Onkel Neal]

Gunnodayak, could you take it easy? Go back and read your posts, you sound like a very angry person. There's no need for calling people out, being so confrontational. This is a forum for discussion of sub games like SH5 ...with friends. Maybe you have some real reasons to burst out with so much anger and hostility, but let me ask, take it easy.

[Gunnodayak]

Gunnodayak, could you take it easy? Go back and read your posts, you sound like a very angry person. There's no need for calling people out, being so confrontational. This is a forum for discussion of sub games like SH5 ...with friends. Maybe you have some real reasons to burst out with so much anger and hostility, but let me ask, take it easy.
OK, Neal, I will try that, to take the things in an easier way, it's a reasonable request from your side. Now, that elanaiba admitted in some degree that his product is ... I won't say "how", my frustration regarding throwing away some money for SH5 and for the unfulfilled expectancies that I had is starting to fade. I feel easier already, now, that I've made my point. And you know a lot of people feel close to a similar way, it's just my way of saying things that makes a discordant image from the "established order". I don't like to be insulted.
And maybe if you wouldn't banned me back then because of him, elanaiba would had some of my respect. But this doesn't matter anyway now.

[AVGWarhawk]

...to all this critiscm? I recently bought it due to modding wants. Havent played it yet, but i read all this negative vibes from objective members here...who havent complained about the game before and are now deeply upset with it.

I thought about, what do you think on all this? As a man.

The man weathered SH4 and to be honest, from the looks of it, SH4 had more bugs than the rainforest. SH5 not so much. How did Dan responded to SH4 with some patches? Then he went on and worked on SH5 as the next response! To be sure, SH4 is a wonderful game today with mods. Just like SH3 was a wonderful game with mods. SH5 will be a wonderful game with mods. Even if SH5 were dead nuts right on accurate to every detail someone would have a gripe and want to mod things. It is only human nature for some who are very creative and the creative outlet the folks is modding. We have seen this enough to know how it goes. Do we all like it? Not really. But we work with it, become friends via the forums and learn a thing or two about history! Dan is just one part of a the machine that makes these games. Is someone creative completely satisified with their work 100%. None that I ever found. In fact, I find the people who create such things as this are their most critical customer.

[Tomi_099]

The man weathered SH4 and to be honest, from the looks of it, SH4 had more bugs than the rainforest. SH5 not so much. How did Dan responded to SH4 with some patches? Then he went on and worked on SH5 as the next response! To be sure, SH4 is a wonderful game today with mods. Just like SH3 was a wonderful game with mods. SH5 will be a wonderful game with mods. Even if SH5 were dead nuts right on accurate to every detail someone would have a gripe and want to mod things. It is only human nature for some who are very creative and the creative outlet the folks is modding. We have seen this enough to know how it goes. Do we all like it? Not really. But we work with it, become friends via the forums and learn a thing or two about history! Dan is just one part of a the machine that makes these games. Is someone creative completely satisified with their work 100%. None that I ever found. In fact, I find the people who create such things as this are their most critical customer.
-------------------

@elanaiba
You Must not forget that we live here in the forum things are much more critical than
All out there. I say critical but not negative.
We will of course always the best because sometimes we count the screws on the submarine.
But who do we get 75% we are at peace

[Onkel Neal]

OK, Neal, I will try that, to take the things in an easier way, it's a reasonable request from your side. Now, that elanaiba admitted in some degree that his product is ... I won't say "how", my frustration regarding throwing away some money for SH5 and for the unfulfilled expectancies that I had is starting to fade. I feel easier already, now, that I've made my point. And you know a lot of people feel close to a similar way, it's just my way of saying things that makes a discordant image from the "established order". I don't like to be insulted.
And maybe if you wouldn't banned me back then because of him, elanaiba would had some of my respect. But this doesn't matter anyway now.


No one likes to be insulted. I don't understand why you are so angry. I did not "ban" you because of elanaiba, I did it because you were launching a personal attack against another forum member. And if I was wrong, I apologize, but in my honest judgment, sincere as I can be, you were out of line, man. I've spent time with elanaiba in the US and Denmark at meetings and various events, he is a respectful, honest guy. Why attack someone like that?

But that's in the past, what worries me now is what is driving you to spend so much energy being negative, seeking attention? If you and I and the other members were in a room, would you be this way? Man, let it go.

[Gunnodayak]

No one likes to be insulted. I don't understand why you are so angry. I did not "ban" you because of elanaiba, I did it because you were launching a personal attack against another forum member. And if I was wrong, I apologize, but in my honest judgment, sincere as I can be, you were out of line, man. I've spent time with elanaiba in the US and Denmark at meetings and various events, he is a respectful, honest guy. Why attack someone like that?

But that's in the past, what worries me now is what is driving you to spend so much energy being negative, seeking attention? If you and I and the other members were in a room, would you be this way? Man, let it go.
OK, I apologize as well if sometimes I am overreacting. But please let me have my personal opinion about Dan, and not only as a game developer. I have my reasons for that. Anyway, I will probably post myself a presentation in that SH5 players forum, although I don't consider myself a SH5. Yet. Maybe I will be one in 6 months or a year.
Dan doesn't know how to speak with people, he have communication problems, you do know how to, that's why I am apologizing now if sometimes I overreact. The only problem is to know how to speak with me, the manner in which you are doing that can make the difference.

[Yskonyn]

Gunno I can't help but point out one little detail I keep noticing in your replies. You use the word 'me' a lot. People should know how to treat you in a respectable manner and should know how your situation is.
Communication is a two-way endeavor, you know. It's not all about you, it's about mutual respect and listening to eachother's point of view.
You often turn statements around again into the negative to fuel another rant. Take a few minutes and consider your replies, buddy.

[Onkel Neal]

I appreciate that, Gunnodayak. Here's the thing about how we interact with each other. Sometimes things come out wrong, sometimes we are in a bad mood, sometimes we have hellish real life/work/wife/gf/money pressures that affect how we interact with each other, against our will and better judgment. Sometimes I make a mistake and take the wrong approach to how I interact with another guy on the forum. Maybe I let me impatience slip, and I get snotty, even though it is against the rules I made (slaps self!). Then I will back up, and I feel that is important, to know when to admit I am wrong, it makes me stronger, not weaker.

I try really hard not to hold grudges. And I am so grateful that people here allow me a few mistakes (ok, a lot) and don't hold grudges against me. What occurs between you and Dan is your business. All I am saying is, if there was some friction between you, keep that off the forums. I wouldn't want Dan posting every few days about you, either.

I've exchanged emails with you, you strike me as a good guy. Give it some thought. :salute:

[skwasjer]

Ok to some this may be arselicking, but I don't care. Others know I am honest.

Dan, I like to congratulate you and the rest of the team on a job well done. I don't even have the game yet, but from what I've seen and the brief conversations a few months ago, I can conclude this is the best SH-game to date. Could it have been better? Sure. Could it have been worse? Definately!

You know I'm not too fond of the DRM system, and well heh, who is, but other than that SH5 will become a good game. Needs some extra care the coming year from Ubi and modders and all will be well.

Carry on!

Dan doesn't know how to speak with people, he have communication problems
:yawn:

[mookiemookie]

Well, I cannot post everything that I could say, indeed. But still:

Negative Feedback received about Silent Hunter generally fits into the following categories:

A - wrong expectations (some thing are just not in the scope of sh5)
B - legitimate concerns about bugs and unfinished features - Most are NOT news to me, since I have a list bigger than the forum. Trust me, you cannot match my expectations - but then again, the same could be said by most of the serious, passionate game developers out there.
C - legitimate concerns about some design choices - like for example the interface. Part of these I can understand, but I am not that concerned since most can be fixed easily by modding. Getting a SH4 style interface back in the game is very easy.

As I was saying in another thread, I have no reservations that WITH TIME (equal patches + mods) this will be THE ONLY SUBSIM TO PLAY. Calling this game arcade is wrong, its no more arcade than SH3 or 4. Calling this an RPG is partly wrong, is simply as simulation as the games before but with an extra layer of RPG like crew development.

I am not at all happy with the current state of the RPG parts (long story) but:
a) nobody is forcing people to use them
b) they can be modded into something more realistic

I will stand by the concept of the RPG parts any day, because I have read enough books to understand that some things that happen in war are simply not justified by technical specifications and field manuals. At some point the man is the one that matters the most.

Before I close this down, I have two more things to say:

1) Ubisoft is a company, of which Ubisoft Romania is a part. Please stop separating the two. Not everything that is good is our merit, not everything that is bad is "the suits" fault. I, of all people, have my parts in the failures of SH5. The people "high up" could have simply decided not to do another SH, just as you guys can choose not to buy.

2) Please stop trying to create a war / antagonism between modders and devs, we need each other.

So, for my final statement of the day, NO, I am not happy with the state of SH5. Of course, except for SH3 - which was not perfect either - I have never been happy with the release of any of my projects.

I have much trust in the potential of SH5, but I am not a fortune teller. Did I quit my job after the launch? No. Am I not a man? I wonder.

People might not buy the game, miss on fun, and not suffer any problems that the game has at the moment. But for the guys that did invest their trust in us, I'd say they need us here.

Yes, Gunnodayak, it took me time to write this long answer, and I waited for the lunchbreak in order not to disturb my current work assignments.

Thank you for your input, Dan. I have to say that I am one of the disappointed ones - but I still hold out hope that you can get some of the features and broken parts of the game into working order. I sincerely hope you're taking some of the legit criticism and addressing it within the time and resource constraints you're given. This game can be very very good, given some time and attention. It's just at this point, with the problems it currently has, I can't glean much entertainment from it. But again, I'm still keeping the faith that you can get it whipped into shape.

[Gunnodayak]

I appreciate that, Gunnodayak. Here's the thing about how we interact with each other. Sometimes things come out wrong, sometimes we are in a bad mood, sometimes we have hellish real life/work/wife/gf/money pressures that affect how we interact with each other, against our will and better judgment. Sometimes I make a mistake and take the wrong approach to how I interact with another guy on the forum. Maybe I let me impatience slip, and I get snotty, even though it is against the rules I made (slaps self!). Then I will back up, and I feel that is important, to know when to admit I am wrong, it makes me stronger, not weaker.

I try really hard not to hold grudges. And I am so grateful that people here allow me a few mistakes (ok, a lot) and don't hold grudges against me. What occurs between you and Dan is your business. All I am saying is, if there was some friction between you, keep that off the forums. I wouldn't want Dan posting every few days about you, either.

I've exchanged emails with you, you strike me as a good guy. Give it some thought. :salute:
OK, you are right in most of the matters above. I will try not to make direct references to Dan if that will help to the peace of the forum.
And by the way, maybe WE should go back to the topic, aren't we? (not only "me" ...:))

[urfisch]

:(

i hoped this kind of discussion would not take place in a thread, that was intended to help the community, with a statement of one of the devs.

he answered honestly and you guys have nothing else to do, than beating each other. instead of beeing grateful. think about it...this is not the kind of behavior, we need in such a thread.

[Hitman]

Dan, I like to congratulate you and the rest of the team on a job well done. I don't even have the game yet, but from what I've seen and the brief conversations a few months ago, I can conclude this is the best SH-game to date. Could it have been better? Sure. Could it have been worse? Definately!

You know I'm not too fond of the DRM system, and well heh, who is, but other than that SH5 will become a good game. Needs some extra care the coming year from Ubi and modders and all will be well.

Carry on!

Yeah, call me asslicker if you want, but I concur with Skwasjer and despite not buying SH5 because of the draconian DRM, I must say I'm impressed by it, and am 100% sure that few if any at all, could have done what Dan and his team have in such a short time. Give them the time and resources Oleg Maddox has for BOB-SOW and I bet even rivet counters would be amazed.

Go Dan, go :rock: You made the best out of what was at your disposal :up:

[Gunnodayak]

:(

i hoped this kind of discussion would not take place in a thread, that was intended to help the community, with a statement of one of the devs.

he answered honestly and you guys have nothing else to do, than beating each other. instead of beeing grateful. think about it...this is not the kind of behavior, we need in such a thread.
Yes, you are right, but probably if you wouldn't had my intervention, he would probably gave us a cosmetic presentation of the reality. "Love" me or "leave" me, but you sometimes need some people like me here. To "squeeze out" what the people actually have in their minds, not just boring, empty and meaningless official statements.

[Bilge_Rat]

Well, I cannot post everything that I could say, indeed. But still:

Negative Feedback received about Silent Hunter generally fits into the following categories:

A - wrong expectations (some thing are just not in the scope of sh5)
B - legitimate concerns about bugs and unfinished features - Most are NOT news to me, since I have a list bigger than the forum. Trust me, you cannot match my expectations - but then again, the same could be said by most of the serious, passionate game developers out there.
C - legitimate concerns about some design choices - like for example the interface. Part of these I can understand, but I am not that concerned since most can be fixed easily by modding. Getting a SH4 style interface back in the game is very easy.

As I was saying in another thread, I have no reservations that WITH TIME (equal patches + mods) this will be THE ONLY SUBSIM TO PLAY. Calling this game arcade is wrong, its no more arcade than SH3 or 4. Calling this an RPG is partly wrong, is simply as simulation as the games before but with an extra layer of RPG like crew development.

I am not at all happy with the current state of the RPG parts (long story) but:
a) nobody is forcing people to use them
b) they can be modded into something more realistic

I will stand by the concept of the RPG parts any day, because I have read enough books to understand that some things that happen in war are simply not justified by technical specifications and field manuals. At some point the man is the one that matters the most.

Before I close this down, I have two more things to say:

1) Ubisoft is a company, of which Ubisoft Romania is a part. Please stop separating the two. Not everything that is good is our merit, not everything that is bad is "the suits" fault. I, of all people, have my parts in the failures of SH5. The people "high up" could have simply decided not to do another SH, just as you guys can choose not to buy.

2) Please stop trying to create a war / antagonism between modders and devs, we need each other.

So, for my final statement of the day, NO, I am not happy with the state of SH5. Of course, except for SH3 - which was not perfect either - I have never been happy with the release of any of my projects.

I have much trust in the potential of SH5, but I am not a fortune teller. Did I quit my job after the launch? No. Am I not a man? I wonder.

People might not buy the game, miss on fun, and not suffer any problems that the game has at the moment. But for the guys that did invest their trust in us, I'd say they need us here.



There is no need to apologize. We all know how much time, hard work goes into these things as well as the constraints and restictions inherent in designing software.

I wanted to emphasize the positive and point out the major improvement in SH5:

1. a fully realized photo-realistic 3d interior of a type VII U-boat:


http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/6015/dials002.jpg


http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/8727/comm003.jpg
I don't think people realize how much research, time and effort went into this and how big an impact it will have on the game atmosphere;




2. substantial improvements to the periscope/UZO/attack map/TDC which makes it much more user friendly, flexible and realistic:

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/734/solution001.jpg


http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/4929/map001.jpg

3. perhaps most important, a very much more mod friendly game structure;


most of the bugs, problems, issues raised by users are fairly minor and I have no doubt will be eventually addressed by your team or modders.

Again very hearty congratulations to you and your team for all the blood, sweat, tears and love you have put into this game.The future looks very bright for SH5.

John.

[COWBOY10]

I too would like to add my thanks to elanaiba for a honest answer. We all know it must be very hard and frustracting to work on a project like this and then listen to us all moan about it when it comes out. However we only moan because we too are passionant about subsims, Hell thats why we are here right, I would be more worried if people ignored it.

Yes I admit as already stated in another post, I was very very excited, but am now frustracted with SHV as it stands. However I think from what I have read MOST of us including myself, CAN see the protential and what we could end up with.

Its a good thing though, that even you have admitted you arent happy with the current SHV. I hope that means, that you and the other devs will still be working on this and steering it towards the SHV you guys want to see and providing us with some patches. As ive already stated, WE ( Well some off us but certanly not Firewall, as I cant speak for him ) do not want to see this sim fail, and Yes as simmers we are very demanding, or so my wife tells me :)
remember dont get too down, We only moan cause we care.

:)

Hugh respect for having the balls to come on here and tell us how it is. :yeah:

[jlederer]

Dan,

Thanks for getting sh5 out the door. Code is very stable for me - no crashes in about 10 jours of play time on my 2gb win7 pc with 320mb video and all eye candy on.

Glad to hear you giuys will be working on fixing the bugs and considering the suggestions for improvement posted here.

If you could provide more docs on mod tools esp. Scripting and related object model, when scripts are called in simulation loop, etc. that would help the community better understand what can be changed/augmented and thus what folks like me can stop asking you to fix :-)

I know that folks in the community will be able to create missions and mod graphics similar to what could be done in sh3 but what can be done that's new? Is it possible to add new crew dialog interactions to invoke orders or round-out storytelling for those who may want that?

Thanks again for reading the community's feedback and posting.

Jim

I'm not sure if my post upset someone but I just edited it to remove all instances of the word "we".

[FIREWALL]

I first want to thank Dan for his response to me and others. :salute:

As for some members here useing the "WE" to freely.


DON'T F**KING SPEAK FOR ME !!! :stare:

Leave me out of your posts.

[COWBOY10]

I first want to thank Dan for his response to me and others. :salute:

As for some members here useing the "WE" to freely.


DON'T F**KING SPEAK FOR ME !!! :stare:

Leave me out of your posts.


WOW, someone had too much coffee, Im sorry Firewall, Just the way I write, Its nothing personal. Got to feel the love in this Forum.

[COWBOY10]

There you go, reedited so now everyone knows I dont speak for you Firewall.

[scrapser]

I would like to ask Dan a few simple, direct questions.

Why is it with each new SH release there is no evidence of building on the previous release and improving it?

I don't mean cloning SH3 into SH4 (which is obvious what was done there). SHV is about Uboats. Why not polish the SH3 code and give it what everyone asked for after it was first released or modded the h*ll out of it to include and call that SHV? You would have had much of the program already completed right at the start, so all the new budget money could be spent making it a much improved, more accurate, full war campaign simulation with all submarines available with very few bugs!?

The interactive interior in SHV is a component of the overall program. Did implementing that force you to cut back on the rest of the simulation? Are the answers to these questions trade secrets? Do I oversimplify the sim development environment?

From your previous reply in this thread I bet you personally feel similar to how my questions show how I feel. I'm simply curious why something so obvious goes undiscussed all the time.

Editted to add:
Think of what I'm asking in this way. Ships, planes, and cars are released in generations. Each generation is an improved version of its predecessor. Why can't this happen with simulation software?

[Rip]

I wish I could have an opinion one way or the other, but I still await my preorder arrival while constantly fighting the urge to check it out by distasteful means. It creates a lot of frustration to know crooks are playing it days before my copy I paid for a month ago is still en-route. Something in the way this works is seriously broken. From the looks of it I may not get my copy until next week. :x:x:x:x:x:x:x:x:x:x:damn::damn::damn::damn::damn: :damn:

[Ducimus]

2) Please stop trying to create a war / antagonism between modders and devs, we need each other.


Quoted for emphasis. Working on/bulding a supermod for SH4 only increased my understanding and appreciation for the developers and what they go through. I may talk bluntly about some things, but i have *always* been on their side (the devs). I have no hesitation in saying that Dan is probably this communities best friend, both end user and modder alike. He has made himself approachable by modders and has even offered his hat into the ring a couple times in brainstorming.

So every time someone says something like this (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1292315&postcount=6), all your doing is driving a wedge between modder and developer, and between modders themselves.

[JScones]

1) Ubisoft is a company, of which Ubisoft Romania is a part. Please stop separating the two. Not everything that is good is our merit, not everything that is bad is "the suits" fault. I, of all people, have my parts in the failures of SH5. The people "high up" could have simply decided not to do another SH, just as you guys can choose not to buy.
Thanks Dan. This largely answers the question that I asked you in the other thread. Hopefully now those planning on persisting with comments like "Don't blame the devs, it's all the suits fault" will consider these words of yours beforehand. :up:

[Uber Gruber]

Hopefully now those planning on persisting with comments like "Don't blame the devs, it's all the suits fault" will consider these words of yours beforehand.

+1:yep:

[Jimbuna]

This pseudo "mea culpa" is welcomed.

WTF!!....I can't believe I've read that :nope:



So every time someone says something like this (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1292315&postcount=6), all your doing is driving a wedge between modder and developer, and between modders themselves.

Agreed (regarding the link) and for the record.....some of the Grey Wolves (myself included) have met Dan in person and consider him a trustworthy friend, a guy with a high level of self esteem, development skills and professional integrity.

I would thank everybody/anybody to cease using the example of The Grey Wolves versus SHV for comparison purposes to make any points in this debate.

The Grey Wolves have never considered themselves to be in any form of competition with Ubisoft....in fact we are on record as acknowledging the basic principle/fact that without the skills of the Ubisoft SH Development Team there would not have been a basis/foundation for The Grey Wolves to work on.

THE GREY WOLVES DO NOT WELCOME SUCH COMPARISONS http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[utops]

Amen.

[Von Hinten]

... I don't think people realize how much research, time and effort went into this and how big an impact it will have on the game atmosphere;

I do. We spend ages waiting for Dan to come out of that boat in Kiel last September. :03:

It's good to see that most of that presumably 'lost' time turned out to be a pretty good investment after all. :up:

[Hanomag]

WTF!!....I can't believe I've read that :nope:



Agreed (regarding the link) and for the record.....some of the Grey Wolves (myself included) have met Dan in person and consider him a trustworthy friend, a guy with a high level of self esteem, development skills and professional integrity.

I would thank everybody/anybody to cease using the example of The Grey Wolves versus SHV for comparison purposes to make any points in this debate.

The Grey Wolves have never considered themselves to be in any form of competition with Ubisoft....in fact we are on record as acknowledging the basic principle/fact that without the skills of the Ubisoft SH Development Team there would not have been a basis/foundation for The Grey Wolves to work on.

THE GREY WOLVES DO NOT WELCOME SUCH COMPARISONS http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

Well said... :yep:

And Dan if your ever back in NYC, I have much better places to eat and or drink!! :up:

[Charlie901]

I fully respect "Dan" comming in here and speaking to us directly about addressing our concerns for the game and bug squashing.

That said...

I'm just not very optomistic that UBISOFT will give Dan any time at all to address SH5 since he and the other Devs are already heavily involed in other projects under the oppressive yoke of UBI to; "Turn em' and burn em"... :damn:









.

[fidget]

Well, I cannot post everything that I could say, indeed. But still:

Negative Feedback received about Silent Hunter generally fits into the following categories:

A - wrong expectations (some thing are just not in the scope of sh5)
B - legitimate concerns about bugs and unfinished features - Most are NOT news to me, since I have a list bigger than the forum. Trust me, you cannot match my expectations - but then again, the same could be said by most of the serious, passionate game developers out there.
C - legitimate concerns about some design choices - like for example the interface. Part of these I can understand, but I am not that concerned since most can be fixed easily by modding. Getting a SH4 style interface back in the game is very easy.

As I was saying in another thread, I have no reservations that WITH TIME (equal patches + mods) this will be THE ONLY SUBSIM TO PLAY. Calling this game arcade is wrong, its no more arcade than SH3 or 4. Calling this an RPG is partly wrong, is simply as simulation as the games before but with an extra layer of RPG like crew development.

I am not at all happy with the current state of the RPG parts (long story) but:
a) nobody is forcing people to use them
b) they can be modded into something more realistic

I will stand by the concept of the RPG parts any day, because I have read enough books to understand that some things that happen in war are simply not justified by technical specifications and field manuals. At some point the man is the one that matters the most.

Before I close this down, I have two more things to say:

1) Ubisoft is a company, of which Ubisoft Romania is a part. Please stop separating the two. Not everything that is good is our merit, not everything that is bad is "the suits" fault. I, of all people, have my parts in the failures of SH5. The people "high up" could have simply decided not to do another SH, just as you guys can choose not to buy.

2) Please stop trying to create a war / antagonism between modders and devs, we need each other.

So, for my final statement of the day, NO, I am not happy with the state of SH5. Of course, except for SH3 - which was not perfect either - I have never been happy with the release of any of my projects.

I have much trust in the potential of SH5, but I am not a fortune teller. Did I quit my job after the launch? No. Am I not a man? I wonder.

People might not buy the game, miss on fun, and not suffer any problems that the game has at the moment. But for the guys that did invest their trust in us, I'd say they need us here.

Yes, Gunnodayak, it took me time to write this long answer, and I waited for the lunchbreak in order not to disturb my current work assignments.

Well, you tried your best and failed. Nothing wrong with that.

Also, thank you for not taking the easy road and perpetuating the "devs" vs "suits" myth to avoid any blame. It would have been easy to do...too many people, who have their own axes to grind and don't understand the game industry, postulate that as a way to bash a game while protecting their own political agendas...it's stupid. When undertaking any complex product like a game, a team is a team... trade-offs are made on both sides with eyes wide open. UBI produced this game...suits and devs. So, whatever it is...it's finally a UBI product...good, bad, or indifferent.

You've all but conceded that the quality of SH has been on a downhill slope after SH3...some might say, as steep downhill slope....that's just the way it is...you can't comment on that, but it's obvious. You are an honest man, constrained by loyalties that run deep.

What I think many people here see are those bugs in SH4 that made it into SH5...and it's hard to explain that. It really is. It's what I call a 'repeat writeup'.

But you know the situation and you know this isn't all directed at you..in fact, you may not be to blame at all. But as THE dev face of SH5, you have to understand how it feels to people who really care.

So, don't put it all in your shoulders...just understand that a passion for Subsims is driving this. Many of us feel that what we got was not good enough to justify the money. You probably can't do anything about it...or maybe you can. I don't know. This game was about 1/3 of the way through a normal dev process...that is obvious too. QA was substantially lacking...even more than SH4.

BTW, the modders don't get paid. No game should ever be released with the expectations that the 'modders will fix it'. That isn't right. The modders are there to lift a good game up...not make a bad effort marginally playable.

[pythos]

Wow!!

Talk about kickin a man when he is down.

"you tried and failed"

He did? Really? Have you looked at the work that went into the game so far? Have you looked at the attention to detail...the fact for the most part the sim is stable.

DRM is a major road block. Let's just leave that there.

Bugs from SH4 are also a glaring problem. But they will be dealt with.

SH5 was built on Sh4. Sh4 in turn was built off of Sh3. Some bugs Sh4 had were directly from Sh3, but we were spoiled to the beauty that sh3 became....because of modders. Do you not recall the crashes to desk tops. The need for 4 patches to get it running right?

Unfortunately Sh4 not only had sh3's bugs but also it's own. And for some reason some functionality was removed.

Now sh5 has the same bugs as SH4. The same elements of functionality have been removed as Sh5, and those will return, some already have.

The new code that was mentioned is undoubtedly the crew management, as well as an entire Uboat modeled. This was a HUGE undertaking, which would explain the use of Sh4 code opposed to entirely new code....which would have brought about other nightmares to be sure.

Keeping that in mind, and realizing PC games are projects for both the devs and the players, this sim is very good.

It has no where else to go but up.

[fidget]

"He did? Really? Have you looked at the work that went into the game so far? Have you looked at the attention to detail...the fact for the most part the sim is stable."

I appreciate your response...but you've said absolutely nothing to refute my points. In fact, you just repeated them.

I posted my opinion...I don't feel the game is 'stable'...but you and I could very well have different definitions of that term.

[krashkart]

Dan, Modders:

Ignore the uselessly negative feedback and concentrate on the stuff that will help you solve problems. We are here to help. We are not going to drive a wedge between anyone. Cast aside anybody that would drive such a wedge without a second glance. Beware the rant threads.


Impatient Gamers:

Cool your turkey feathers and let the men do their work. It's hard enough to put a complex project together within a specified time frame and produce anything short of a masterpiece. Take a break from your game, get some sack time, and come back tomorrow with a fresh mind so that you can help sort these issues out.

My advice would be to keep the truly illegitimate negatives to rant threads. If you hate the game as it is now, and if you cannot see your way toward helping the Ubisoft devs correct their errors, then throw your copy of Silent Hunter 5 in the trash and be done with it.

[U-Bones]

As far as character goes, this post only confirms what many of us here knew years ago.

I bought this game in spite of personal distaste for certain features, and what to me was a very dissapointing SH4, mostly because I trusted in the devs desire to deliver a good sim. After playing this game some, seeing the mods that have come out, and easily making the game playable with just a few of them, I have to say I share the optimistic view on the potiential of this game.

Thanks Dan (and crew).

Well, I cannot post everything that I could say, indeed. But still:

Negative Feedback received about Silent Hunter generally fits into the following categories:

A - wrong expectations (some thing are just not in the scope of sh5)
B - legitimate concerns about bugs and unfinished features - Most are NOT news to me, since I have a list bigger than the forum. Trust me, you cannot match my expectations - but then again, the same could be said by most of the serious, passionate game developers out there.
C - legitimate concerns about some design choices - like for example the interface. Part of these I can understand, but I am not that concerned since most can be fixed easily by modding. Getting a SH4 style interface back in the game is very easy.

As I was saying in another thread, I have no reservations that WITH TIME (equal patches + mods) this will be THE ONLY SUBSIM TO PLAY. Calling this game arcade is wrong, its no more arcade than SH3 or 4. Calling this an RPG is partly wrong, is simply as simulation as the games before but with an extra layer of RPG like crew development.

I am not at all happy with the current state of the RPG parts (long story) but:
a) nobody is forcing people to use them
b) they can be modded into something more realistic

I will stand by the concept of the RPG parts any day, because I have read enough books to understand that some things that happen in war are simply not justified by technical specifications and field manuals. At some point the man is the one that matters the most.

Before I close this down, I have two more things to say:

1) Ubisoft is a company, of which Ubisoft Romania is a part. Please stop separating the two. Not everything that is good is our merit, not everything that is bad is "the suits" fault. I, of all people, have my parts in the failures of SH5. The people "high up" could have simply decided not to do another SH, just as you guys can choose not to buy.

2) Please stop trying to create a war / antagonism between modders and devs, we need each other.

So, for my final statement of the day, NO, I am not happy with the state of SH5. Of course, except for SH3 - which was not perfect either - I have never been happy with the release of any of my projects.

I have much trust in the potential of SH5, but I am not a fortune teller. Did I quit my job after the launch? No. Am I not a man? I wonder.

People might not buy the game, miss on fun, and not suffer any problems that the game has at the moment. But for the guys that did invest their trust in us, I'd say they need us here.

Yes, Gunnodayak, it took me time to write this long answer, and I waited for the lunchbreak in order not to disturb my current work assignments.

[fidget]

"Dan, Modders:

Ignore the uselessly negative feedback and concentrate on the stuff that will help you solve problems. We are here to help. We are not going to drive a wedge between anyone. Cast aside anybody that would, without a second glance. Beware the rant threads."

Hrmmmm...a lot of assumptions in that statement.

"Impatient Gamers:"

In the future, you would do better to refer to me as "customer". I didn't get this game for free. If I did, then call me anything you want.

"My advice would be to keep the truly illegitimate negatives to rant threads."

They'll make beggars of us all...because beggars are easier to please.

[Méo]

Hrmmmm...a lot of assumptions in that statement.

"Impatient Gamers:"

In the future, you would do better to refer to me as "customer". I didn't get this game for free.

I see what you mean.

But there are lot of ''Impatient Gamers'' who are not ''customers'' and still complain endlessly without even trying it. (i.e. they've said many times that they would never buy SH5).

[fidget]

"I see what you mean, still there are lot of ''Impatient Gamers'' who are not ''customers'' and still complain endlessly without even trying it. (i.e. they've said many times that they would never buy SH5)."

No doubt, you are right. I suspect the DRM issue is at play there...but yes, I'm sure a lot fall into that category.

Nevertheless, many critics here have bought the game...and they are customers all the same...writing them off as "Impatient Gamers" is a bit too cute.

[Méo]

writing them off as "Impatient Gamers" is a bit too cute.

I know, but those were not my words though.

So no offence. :03:

[fidget]

"I know, but those were not my words though.

So no offence."

I know, so no offence taken. Also, I'm not offended by the person that wrote those words. I just have a different take on the issue.

[Reece]

The game should never have been released in the very poor state, it is full of bugs and there is no excuse, UBI developed the game, UBI produced the game, people paid good money for a supposed finished product, well it isn't! they were basically swindled, this is a fact!:nope: Ubisoft should be ashamed, and with the DRM can't even sell it/pass it on!!:oops:
Thanks goes to the modders ability to be able to repair some of it!:-?

[tommyk]

The game should never have been released in the very poor state, it is full of bugs and there is no excuse, UBI developed the game, UBI produced the game, people paid good money for a supposed finished product, well it isn't! they were basically swindled, this is a fact!:nope: Ubisoft should be ashamed, and with the DRM can't even sell it/pass it on!!:oops:
Thanks goes to the modders ability to be able to repair some of it!:-?

Very well said, Reece! QFT, Thanks! :up:

[AOTD_MadMax]

2) Please stop trying to create a war / antagonism between modders and devs, we need each other.

So, for my final statement of the day, NO, I am not happy with the state of SH5. Of course, except for SH3 - which was not perfect either - I have never been happy with the release of any of my projects.

[/I]

Hi dear elanaiba,

to your point 2.) i have an question.

You say " we need each other ", what does it mean ??

In my eyes modding means not to bring the game to gold-status !
Modding should be an additional work, not an debugging job.
For the future i hope that your words becomes true.
I wish that some modders could be integrated to the team as free workers.
You will see that this would rise the quality of your work.


You say "i have never been happy with the release of any of my projects"

Thats sounds poor in my ears.
You mut be an very frustated person when you say this about your work.
I was very happy with the release of my SH4 modpack "Fall of the rising sun"
and iam very happy that many people like this modpack.
We from AOTD have tested out "FOTRS" for a long time and when i take a look to SH5 i come to the result that SH5 has not been tested any time ore the testers have done their jobs with closed eyes under pressure.

For example :

Some Shipguns didnt got any firesound cause the link to the fireeffect missed in the sim-file.
I found it after testing the game 5 minutes.
With the S3D-Tool from Skwasjer i corrected this bug until 2 minutes.

Another example :

The Somers destroyer didnt got an node for the sonar, thats why this class cant find any sub.
One look to the GR2-File of this unit offers me this bug.

This basics should have be done until release and it could have been done by an small crew of modders.
Thats my understanding of working hand in hand and "we need each other".
It is very easy :
The work for creating an subsim we all want ( including you ) is to big for your team in Bukarest cause the time is to short.
In case of this it is important to fill up the team with people who dont need to earn money for their job.
Its not an problem to make an contract for this.
It can be done if you want it and it is the work of the projectmanager to bring this on the way.

Nothing is impossible when you really want it !

Regards

AOTD|MadMax

[Zedi]

Is 1 thing I can't understand. If the devs know that SH5 is uber buged and they also not happy with his state, why the heck they don't come over and work as moders?!? You know.. for fun.. as the other moders do here. Or at least write a gosh darn tutorial for those who wish to learn moding and fix SH5 without being paid...

[Yosarian]

why the heck they don't come over and work as moders?!?
They have no time, they are in charge to developing the next unfinished and bug infested game by Ubisoft Romania, called HAWX2!:har:

[Zedi]

That's not an excuse, our moders have a life too. Still they found enough time to give us mods that fix the game and make it playable and enjoyable. So if the devs feel bad for the mess they did with the SH5, they should come over and give a hand to fix what can be fixed by mods. Ofc, I can't expect anything like this from the nutheads from ceo, they can only steal money, nothing else.

[Faamecanic]

Well, I cannot post everything that I could say, indeed. But still:

Negative Feedback received about Silent Hunter generally fits into the following categories:

A - wrong expectations (some thing are just not in the scope of sh5)
B - legitimate concerns about bugs and unfinished features - Most are NOT news to me, since I have a list bigger than the forum. Trust me, you cannot match my expectations - but then again, the same could be said by most of the serious, passionate game developers out there.
C - legitimate concerns about some design choices - like for example the interface. Part of these I can understand, but I am not that concerned since most can be fixed easily by modding. Getting a SH4 style interface back in the game is very easy.

As I was saying in another thread, I have no reservations that WITH TIME (equal patches + mods) this will be THE ONLY SUBSIM TO PLAY. Calling this game arcade is wrong, its no more arcade than SH3 or 4. Calling this an RPG is partly wrong, is simply as simulation as the games before but with an extra layer of RPG like crew development.

I am not at all happy with the current state of the RPG parts (long story) but:
a) nobody is forcing people to use them
b) they can be modded into something more realistic

I will stand by the concept of the RPG parts any day, because I have read enough books to understand that some things that happen in war are simply not justified by technical specifications and field manuals. At some point the man is the one that matters the most.

Before I close this down, I have two more things to say:

1) Ubisoft is a company, of which Ubisoft Romania is a part. Please stop separating the two. Not everything that is good is our merit, not everything that is bad is "the suits" fault. I, of all people, have my parts in the failures of SH5. The people "high up" could have simply decided not to do another SH, just as you guys can choose not to buy.

2) Please stop trying to create a war / antagonism between modders and devs, we need each other.

So, for my final statement of the day, NO, I am not happy with the state of SH5. Of course, except for SH3 - which was not perfect either - I have never been happy with the release of any of my projects.

I have much trust in the potential of SH5, but I am not a fortune teller. Did I quit my job after the launch? No. Am I not a man? I wonder.

People might not buy the game, miss on fun, and not suffer any problems that the game has at the moment. But for the guys that did invest their trust in us, I'd say they need us here.

Yes, Gunnodayak, it took me time to write this long answer, and I waited for the lunchbreak in order not to disturb my current work assignments.


I will have to say.... Im floored by the HONEST response here by elanaiba and I RESPECT the fact He had the courage to say he is NOT satisfied by what was released.

I actually sat at my PC all weekend (3 day weekend) and spent about 25 hours playing SH5. And overall I think I have been too harsh on the devs in the past... your creation was a MASTERPIECE!! Very engaging and fun.

With that said its a crying shame things were left so unfinished. The struggle you had to create the most immersive Uboat environment was brought down several levels by bad design choices (devs mostly to blame, and if I read elanaiba's response correctly he takes the blame willingly! Way to MAN UP bud! :yeah:), as well as the compressed timeline and demands from "the suits".

But what ticks me off (and probably the devs as well) is 1) how bugs from previous SH's made it in the game, 2) how many NEW bugs were in the final release (after 2 patches) and last and worst IMHO is how UBI blames this "niche" market for being to small and not buying thier game.

Again its a vicious cycle. Starting with SH3... game released with bugs, customers talk, not as many people buy. So SH 4 given less budget and/or design time (but more demands placed on devs), released with more bugs than SH3. Customers talk, less people buy (at least at full price), Ubi blames shrinking "niche market". So Sh5 is given less budget/design time (but even MORE demands for NEW stuff on devs).

You see the cycle.

Now again I retract some of my harsh comments over the last few months since release. I see the diamond in the rough..... and it has the potential to be a VERY nice diamond. Its just a shame something so pretty has to be so marred and need MODs to make it what is should have been. How many new sub-simmers have been turned off and lost forever by buying SH5 and being totally turned off by the state sH5 was in at release (pre-patch).

[janh]

It seems that you, mate, don't have the required manners to post on this forum. I do, maybe you should learn from me how to speak and how to choose your words.
Maybe some moderator should see these words you've just spoken to me.

Now I like your profile pic today --keelhauled. I wonder who spent the effort to collect all those pics...

[tonschk]

My friend, you're right.

[/COLOR]I do not see it all so negative.
I recall that created by a mod, and have incorporated it into the game.
That brings a lot of work and patience, these efforts to realize.
Then one sees what has created and suddenly remembers that one has not achieved the goal of what I wanted to achieve.

Why should this not be another case of our friends.
It's always a learning process we are engaged.

With such a complex work of SH5 simulation, I take my hat:salute:
What the guys have done in the short time.
This is a tremendous achievement.
Even a beginning of the expansion of the New Silent Hunter generation.

But I do not know a single game that has no errors.:timeout:
This gives us again the occasion a Patsch get

And maybe the possibility of getting an ADD ON.:hmmm:

That means we are not at the end, we are at the beginning
A simulation of a lot more offers than SH3 or SH4.
Now really is not yet aware of us because we are too much
To see the visual. But under the hood that can much more
When we think.

.

:rock: I Agree :yeah:, That means we are not at the end, we are at the beginning

[mookiemookie]

http://pugsly.bechange.com/forum_fodder/this_thread_wont_die.jpg

[Takeda Shingen]

Yeah. Thread necromancy at its finest.

[Faamecanic]

Maybe a merge with the "Army of Zombies" thread :D

[tonschk]

. I see the diamond in the rough..... and it has the potential to be a VERY nice diamond

.

I Agree :rock:

.

[Faamecanic]

I Agree :rock:

.

Just got my VIIB ...with the two FlaK decks.... WOW :o what a beauty!

[tonschk]

As a simulation SH5 has a lot more to offer than SH3 or SH4 ,

.

[Ducimus]

As a simulation SH5 has a lot more to offer than SH3 or SH4 ,

.

With a couple years time and a whole lot of work yeah. Though the GR2 file format shoots itself in the foot.

[Madox58]

@AOTD_MadMax

Ships don't have sensors, sounds are broken.
Heck!
Alot is broken!
We fix it, or forget it!
You it seems, have choosen forget it.
That's fine if you choose to follow that path.
Have you shown your true skills, knowledge, and abilities by giving up?
I expected more (on a personnal level) from you and your Team.
:nope:
What is the main problem?
Tools? Know how? Knowledge?
What?

[krashkart]

Maybe a merge with the "Army of Zombies" thread :D

Nah, that's a LOL thread. :woot:

[AOTD_MadMax]

@AOTD_MadMax

Ships don't have sensors, sounds are broken.
Heck!
Alot is broken!
We fix it, or forget it!
You it seems, have choosen forget it.
That's fine if you choose to follow that path.
Have you shown your true skills, knowledge, and abilities by giving up?
I expected more (on a personnal level) from you and your Team.
:nope:
What is the main problem?
Tools? Know how? Knowledge?
What?


Hi Privateer,

its easy to say !
First of all iam an customer of SH5, paying 50 Euro for this game in the same way i payed for the other SH-Games.
So its not my part to fix the game to the gold-state and i dont have to show my skill by doing the work of Ubi.
If you want it, do it but dont bother me with this kind of posting here.
I dont like this kind of personal attacks here mate.
I have shown my skill with works for SH3 and SH4 like FOTRS.

I laugh about that posting from elanaiba cause he say "we need each other".
What kind of partnership does he mean ?
Nearly one year until SH5 was released i wrote a mail to Ubi with my idea for partnership between some modders and the devs for making SH5 better.
It was an totally concept how you can work out an fantastic subsim with a low budget by using the manpower of the modding-community.
No response ...............
And now he talks this things like "we need each other".

Yes, we need each other but not after the child was falling down.

Do you know why small germany is so powerfull in engineering ?
First we make a plan ..............

As an projectmanager he should have the overview to what could have realised in the frame of time and money.
Remember, first they spoke that all Subs should be a part of SH5.
After realising that time and money is to short, they sell us a nice story why only the type VII sub appears in SH5.
The same to many other features missed ore not working in SH5.

The first view of an company should be the view to their products, not at the money they can earn.
If the products are in a good quality, money comes automatically.
So we handle here in germany and thats the reason why german cars are so popular over the whole world.
Thats why germany is the global player in engineering.
We keep an eye on the quality first.

Creating a high quality product is not the work of an strong marketing-department.

finish !

Regards

Maddy


Now in German !
Und hier auf Deutsch ( das kommt besser rüber wie mein schlechtes Englisch )

Hallo Privateer,

zum ersten möchte ich Dir sagen das ich ein Kunde bin, der 50 Euro für SH5 bezahlt hat, sowie ich es auch für die anderen SH Spiele gezahlt habe.
In diesem Sinne ist es nicht meine Aufgabe das Spiel zu einem "Releasestatus" zu fixen um so meine Fähigkeiten unter Beweis zu stellen in dem ich die Arbeit von Ubi mache.
Wenn Du darin deine Aufgabe siehst, ok, dann mach es aber komm hier jetzt nicht so rüber das Du an meine Fähigkeiten in Frage stellst nur weil ich mich dieser Aufgabe nicht widme.
Derartige personelle Attacken mag ich ganz und garnicht da sie völlig aus dem Kontext gezogen sind.
Das was ich kann habe ich mit meinen Arbeiten für SH3 und SH4 gezeigt, insbesondere in FOTRS.
Modden ist für mich nicht die Beweisführung meiner Kompetenz und meiner Fähigkeiten sondern mein Hobby welches in der Summe dazu führen soll
das mein gekauftes Spiel in meinen Augen besser und umfangreicher wird.
Es ist auf keinen Fall ein Wettbewerb und schon garnicht die Endkontrollfunktion und Patcharbeit für einen Publisher der es nicht versteht
vernünftige Arbeit abzuliefern.

Ich kann über das was Elanaiba da geschrieben hat nur lachen.
Zusammenarbeit zwischen Moddern und Devs, wir benötigen einander ?
Ja was für eine Zusammenarbeit soll das bitte schön sein ????

Ungefähr ein Jahr vor dem Release von SH5 habe ich eine Mail an Ubi geschickt mit einem Konzept wie man kostengünstig eine perfekte U-Sim unter Einbeziehung ausgesuchter erstklassiger Modder auf die Beine stellen könnte.
Es kam keine Antwort.
Jetzt wo das Kind in den Brunnen gefallen ist brauchen wir die Zusammenarbeit , brauchen wir einander ?

Weißt Du eigentlich warum das kleine Deutschland im Maschinenbau Weltweit so erfolgreich ist.
Wir machen uns erstmal einen Plan bevor wir anfangen zu basteln.
Konzeption ist das Geheimniss des Erfolges.

Als Projektmanager sollte man den Überblick haben über das was in dem Rahmen aus Zeit und Geld realisierbar ist.
Am anfang hieß es doch das in SH5 wie in SH3 alle Boote enthalten seien sollen.
Dann aber wurde uns eine schöne Geschichte präsentiert warum das nicht so ist.
Das ist doch der perfekte Beweis das es genau an diesem Überblick mangelte.
Ich halte die Ausrede die Dan damals in dem Interview gegeben hat für eine der schlimmsten Lügen überhaupt.
Es gibt nur Typ VII Boote weil ........ und die Kampagne geht nur bis Mai 43 weil ........
Totaler Humbug, das gibts nicht weil sie sich verzettelt haben.

Der erste Blick einer produzierender Firma sollte immer der Blick auf die Qualität ihrer Produkte sein und nicht der Blick auf das Geld was man erwirtschaften könnte.
Dann nämlich kommt der Erfolg und das Geld automatisch.
So machen die Unternehmen in Deutschland es und das ist der Grund warum deutsche Autos weltweit so beliebt sind.
Das ist der Grund warum Deutschland im Maschinenbau Weltführend ist.

Die Qualität eines Produktes wird nicht von der Marketingabteilung bestimmt und gemacht, sie entsteht ausschließlich in der Entwicklungsabteilung und der Produktionsabteilung.
Die Marketingfuzzies haben lediglich für eine perfekte Vermarktung zu sorgen.

Bei Ubi ist das genau umgekehrt, dort regieren die Vermarkter und die Qualität der Produkte steht hinten an.
Sorry aber für so einen Verein ziehe ich nicht mehr die Kuh vom Eis.

Ich haben fertig !

Gruß

Maddy

[Nisgeis]

I had low expectations for this thread and yet somehow, it is much, much worse. I read the OP again and had to laugh. I don't think many people here are objective when it comes to SH5.

[McBeck]

Dead horse coming through - get out of the way... :yawn:

[Zedi]

I kinda agree with MadMax, especially with the german engineering ... <3 Audi & VW :P
But.. given the cards on the table, what u gonna do? Play forever that ancient SH3, or save SH5? Not to menion that SH5 is more likely the last in the series. At least I (and many more) will never buy another one with Ubi logo on. So this german technology and way of plan/do things speech is nice, but will not help any1 in anyway.

[AOTD_MadMax]

I kinda agree with MadMax, especially with the german engineering ... <3 Audi & VW :P
But.. given the cards on the table, what u gonna do? Play forever that ancient SH3, or save SH5? Not to menion that SH5 is more likely the last in the series. At least I (and many more) will never buy another one with Ubi logo on. So this german technology and way of plan/do things speech is nice, but will not help any1 in anyway.

Hi Magnum,

i will tell you what i will do !

Now we got summer here in Germany and the weather is fine.
As an biker ( BMW K100RS 16V btw. the best engineered bike ever ) i will spend my time by driving my bike in my free time.
I must be an complete idiot using this time by fixing any Bugs of any game ever.
Ok, i like subsims and i like to play them but life is to short to spend all he time with modding and in case of SH5 by fixing stupid bugs.

I wait for another Patch and i wait for an tool where you can edit the stupid GR2-Files for bringing more units to SH5.
If this patch wont come and if those needed tool wont come i will do nothing on SH5.
Its not my job to create this tool and really, iam not in a condition to create this tool cause iam not an programmer like some other modders here.
Maybe Privateer will judge my skill now but who cares ???
And first i have to Upgrade my "Fall of the rising sun" for SH4.
There is an big "to do list" i have to work on.

For me SH4 is not dead, just like SH3.
My next plan is an Destroyer-Campain for SH4 with multiple playable destroyerunits beginning with old Clemson class over Gleaves, Somers, Benson to Fletcher, Sumner and Gearing class on US-side.
This could be interesting.

Regards

Maddy

[Reece]

Hi Magnum,

i will tell you what i will do !

Now we got summer here in Germany and the weather is fine.
As an biker ( BMW K100RS 16V btw. the best engineered bike ever ) i will spend my time by driving my bike in my free time.
I must be an complete idiot using this time by fixing any Bugs of any game ever.
Ok, i like subsims and i like to play them but life is to short to spend all he time with modding and in case of SH5 by fixing stupid bugs.

I wait for another Patch and i wait for an tool where you can edit the stupid GR2-Files for bringing more units to SH5.
If this patch wont come and if those needed tool wont come i will do nothing on SH5.
Its not my job to create this tool and really, iam not in a condition to create this tool cause iam not an programmer like some other modders here.
Maybe Privateer will judge my skill now but who cares ???
And first i have to Upgrade my "Fall of the rising sun" for SH4.
There is an big "to do list" i have to work on.

For me SH4 is not dead, just like SH3.
My next plan is an Destroyer-Campain for SH4 with multiple playable destroyerunits beginning with old Clemson class over Gleaves, Somers, Benson to Fletcher, Sumner and Gearing class on US-side.
This could be interesting.

Regards

MaddyThing is if Ubi drops SH5 servers then the game is useless, unless they release a patch, and I wouldn't bet on them doing that, so all the work would be for nothing. Also I don't have a good enough internet connection to stay online so the game is out of reach for me anyway, there are probably a lot of modders that don't have SH5 because of this.:hmmm:
I love your bike mate, would love to upgrade if I could afford it, I have an old 87 K100RT, still goes well though, the wife and I go on short holidays when the weather is nice!!:yeah:
Cheers.

[JU_88]

Thing is if Ubi drops SH5 servers then the game is useless, unless they release a patch, and I wouldn't bet on them doing that, so all the work would be for nothing. Also I don't have a good enough internet connection to stay online so the game is out of reach for me anyway, there are probably a lot of modders that don't have SH5 because of this.:hmmm:
I love your bike mate, would love to upgrade if I could afford it, I have an old 87 K100RT, still goes well though, the wife and I go on short holidays when the weather is nice!!:yeah:
Cheers.


If they drop the servers they will release the patch.
In these cases, the publisher will have already have made the patch at the time of development/release, all they would have to do is release it.

Yes they could just kill the servers without patching, but then they would no longer beable to sell the game with out breaking the law. That is somthing even Ubi would not dare, plus there is no incentive for them to do it anyway.
Everything they do is in the name of $$$.

[PL_Andrev]

Are you disappointed with the poor quality SH5 which you bought? Why?

Who told you to buy SH5? Who told you to buy an unknown product? Ads (trailers, in-game footages) lie, they just want your money.
If something is too expensive or you are uncertain that something has proper quality for you... are you buying this product?
Wait for opinions, for feedback (f.e. on subsim review). No? You bought this game at release date?
So, who is guilty? Developers? Not - it is you, why did you buy an unknown product?

I know people who not bought SH5 because it has DRM. I know people who not bought SH5 because this game is weak arcade or RPG game.
And I did not buy this game - yet. SH5 is really weak, has bad instruction, tragic tutorial, missing a lot of good ideas from SH3 or SH4 (for example: 1939-45 campaign, extensive ADV mode, mission generator). The game is infinite, incomplete, has serious bugs, and the AI is in the early years of very stupid - but this game has something that we missed in previous sections (reaction to enemy activity Uboat, full 3D interior, special orders for crews)... is it really weak? Work done by modders encourages me to buy SH5 - what I see is I'm impressed very nice.

I really regret that UbiSoft has not decided to allocate a one part-time person to work with modders and to review and clean SH5 bugs, but such is the law of the market. Transfer of part of work for modders ("they will fix it") is not a serious treatment of buyers - it weakens the brand team, destroy the publisher opinion.
But the developers work allow create unexpected add-ons to SH4 like "uboat on Atlantic" (OM mod) or "Japanese submarine at WWII" (JyunsenB mod).

I plan to buy this game after the holiday, and convinced me to purchase the wonderful work of modders gathered around SUBSIM community. Their work, however, would not be possible without Dan and his team. At the first time in the submarine simulations games history I could play the Japanese submarine campaign at the Pacific and sink evil Americans, British or Australians, and I firmly believe that for some time I will play type XXI at 1945 in SH5 or play Bismarck, fleeing Allied submarines and their torpedoes.

I want to tell "thank you" to developers for their work - by their work the first mod was already published two days after the SH5 release date.
:salute:

[AOTD_MadMax]

@ Antar

i buyed SH5 one Day after release.
That is my art of saying "thanks" to the devs.
I dont have to write "thanks" for your work in any forum cause i did it by buying the game to the release-price.

Iam not guilty for doing that.
I beleaved the things the marketing-department offers us with videos and so on and i beleaved the words spoken out from the devs that SH5 will be the best SH ever.

Now the truth comes through and the truth is that they have cheated us with non functial contents and other boring things.
Thats the fact.

Regards

Maddy

[Zedi]

...
So, who is guilty? Developers? Not - it is you, why did you buy an unknown product?
...

I bought is because they don't have a fraking demo as any game or product in the world has, so no way to test it before buy it.
I bought it because I like the SH series, but I cant play an ancient and ugly game as SH3, with huge dials &crap all over my screen. Even if is functioning good now.. after almost 10 years after release.
I bought it because I saw previews on YT and I liked very much what I saw, was hoping that this time we finally will get a finished SH.

Guilty? Ubi!! I don't know where the hell Ubi has the HQ, but in my part of the world there is a say.. the customer is always right. I'm a customer and they suck.

[HarlockGN]

Since someone used some necromancy on this thread, I'll say what I think.

While very honest, the dev response I read left me debaffled for a single reason, and that's how much a professional developer relies on modders for his game to reach a decent finished state.

This is the complete opposite of professionalism for a game developer.

Don't get me wrong: I love the modding communities of basically every game that allows mods, I've been part of quite a few (Oblivion for instance, with some very popular mods, but not only). But a developer that releases an unfinished products counting on the customers (that paid for such product) to make up for the work that he didn't do is absolutely comtemptible.

A developer's duty is to get a product out in a decently finished state, THEN if the modders build great things on top of it, awesome, but the developer needs to make sure the base is solid.

I'm starting to think that the very reason (or at least one of the reasons) for which this game was released in such a shameful state is that the developers saw what the community did with SH3 and felt overly safe that the modders would have "saved" the game whatever state it was in.
This behavioir flies in the face of the very idea of professionalism, and I think they should really feel ashamed about nurturing such thoughts.

We paid for this game. We shouldn't be SUPPOSED to fix it. If we do, it's for our enjoyment only, but we don't have any obligation to "help" a developer that obviously didn't do his job decently. If we do it, it's for the sake of our enjoyment, but it should be completely disjoined from the developer's will, work or expectations.

That's why, while I appreciate the sincerity, I cannot appreciate this kind of amateurish approach to development, and if I had any respect for Ubi Romania (or Ubisoft in general) now it's gone.

[jas39]

well said.

[mookiemookie]

Since someone used some necromancy on this thread, I'll say what I think.

While very honest, the dev response I read left me debaffled for a single reason, and that's how much a professional developer relies on modders for his game to reach a decent finished state.

This is the complete opposite of professionalism for a game developer.

Don't get me wrong: I love the modding communities of basically every game that allows mods, I've been part of quite a few (Oblivion for instance, with some very popular mods, but not only). But a developer that releases an unfinished products counting on the customers (that paid for such product) to make up for the work that he didn't do is absolutely comtemptible.

A developer's duty is to get a product out in a decently finished state, THEN if the modders build great things on top of it, awesome, but the developer needs to make sure the base is solid.

I'm starting to think that the very reason (or at least one of the reasons) for which this game was released in such a shameful state is that the developers saw what the community did with SH3 and felt overly safe that the modders would have "saved" the game whatever state it was in.
This behavioir flies in the face of the very idea of professionalism, and I think they should really feel ashamed about nurturing such thoughts.

We paid for this game. We shouldn't be SUPPOSED to fix it. If we do, it's for our enjoyment only, but we don't have any obligation to "help" a developer that obviously didn't do his job decently. If we do it, it's for the sake of our enjoyment, but it should be completely disjoined from the developer's will, work or expectations.

That's why, while I appreciate the sincerity, I cannot appreciate this kind of amateurish approach to development, and if I had any respect for Ubi Romania (or Ubisoft in general) now it's gone.

Moot point now, as Ubi has effectively killed the franchise by twice in a row not devoting the time and money needed in order to allow development of a title worthy of the Silent Hunter name at release.

The brand is irreparably tainted. Even if by some stroke of fancy, Ubi released a top notch quality Silent Hunter 6, it would still sell below potential as the albatross of SH4 and SH5's initial release state would hang around its neck.

One can only wonder what Dan and company could have done, if they had been given the resources to accomplish what I believe they wanted for the game.

[THE_MASK]

"First they will love us, then they will hate us (with reason) then after patches & mods it will be the only sub sim worth playing.'' After hearing what TheDarkWraith has to say about the AI i believe it .

[tonschk]

.... but I cant play an ancient and ugly game as SH3, with huge silly dials &crap all over my screen.....

.


I Agree , I LOVE Silent Hunter 5 :yeah:

.

[JScones]

One can only wonder what Dan and company could have done, if they had been given the resources to accomplish what I believe they wanted for the game.
How many more resources do you want? There's over 80 names on the credits. Even taking out the Ubisoft France component there's still a fair number of people that worked on SH5 (contrary to popular belief it wasn't just a one-man team). How much time, effort and money do you spend before you realise your investment is greater than your return?

I know this will upset many Danbois, but I think we have the best the devs could come up with. I mean, if the dev team was that concerned about risk to reputation, they would have found a way to delay its release. It wouldn't be the first time that Ubisoft has delayed release of a game. And SH5 was hardly the most awaited blockbuster game of the year.

You are reaping dev team design decisions, and all related inherent flaws, including an obvious decision to ignore fundamental bugs carried through from SH3 and SH4 coding. Remember, design is undertaken early in the SDLC...if your design is flawed or illogical, your product will be flawed...

...much easier just to cut your losses when you've realised you've bitten off more than you can chew...

[aergistal]

I bought it because I like the SH series, but I cant play an ancient and ugly game as SH3, with huge dials &crap all over my screen. Even if is functioning good now.. after almost 10 years after release.


You must be the perfect client Ubisoft aimed for :DL, putting huge emphasis on eye-candy above anything else, easily influenced into hastly buying it despite the negative reviews.

I'm actually considering buying SH3 instead of 5, only to be able to use the GWX mod at least.

[Jimbuna]

but I cant play an ancient and ugly game as SH3, with huge dials &crap all over my screen. Even if is functioning good now.. after almost 10 years after release.



Spoken like a true SubSim veteran....but sadly, not backed up by legions of supporters or the thousands of SH3 game players :nope:

[kylania]

Spoken like a true SubSim veteran....but sadly, not backed up by legions of supporters or the thousands of SH3 game players :nope:

When more of those SH3 players upgrade to 24" monitors and Windows 7 I think you'll see more and more complaints about that game.

I absolutely love Silent Hunter 3, it plays remarkably smooth on my machine now. However it's a bitch to get it working under Windows 7 64bit and it looks like utter crap on my new PC since it's essentially designed for a computer with the screen resolution and computing power of my phone.

[Nisgeis]

Spoken like a true SubSim veteran....but sadly, not backed up by legions of supporters or the thousands of SH3 game players :nope:

How would the thousands of SH3 game players be able to back up his statement that he personally finds playing with a low resolution UI difficult? I think it would be best if we didn't start saying who is and who isn't a proper subsimmer, because of the way they like to play or their preferences. If you have supported the genre by buying the games, then that's good enough for me.

[mookiemookie]

How much time, effort and money do you spend before you realise your investment is greater than your return?

Well, kind of what I was getting at was if they did have unlimited time, effort and money. I know that's not economically feasible, but ah well. :D

[Iron Budokan]

When more of those SH3 players upgrade to 24" monitors and Windows 7 I think you'll see more and more complaints about that game.

I absolutely love Silent Hunter 3, it plays remarkably smooth on my machine now. However it's a bitch to get it working under Windows 7 64bit and it looks like utter crap on my new PC since it's essentially designed for a computer with the screen resolution and computing power of my phone.

I'm prolly one of the least computer literate people on the planet, but thanks to the excellent help topics on how to load the game on my new Win 7 computer I had very little trouble. Of course, my new copy of Sh3 doesn't have Starforce so maybe that helped. I also used the wide screen fix that was available for the game and it looks great on my system.

I dunno. I guess I was lucky, bc I've heard of others having trouble getting /3 on their new system. I didn't have any trouble, which was a relief. Now if I could only find time to play it, haha. :DL

[Jimbuna]

When more of those SH3 players upgrade to 24" monitors and Windows 7 I think you'll see more and more complaints about that game.

I absolutely love Silent Hunter 3, it plays remarkably smooth on my machine now. However it's a bitch to get it working under Windows 7 64bit and it looks like utter crap on my new PC since it's essentially designed for a computer with the screen resolution and computing power of my phone.

I use a 22" and XP Pro but not to concerned regarding my next OS upgrade because I know a few folk who appear to be problem free.....I am hoping I'm not the exception to the rule though :DL

[Jimbuna]

How would the thousands of SH3 game players be able to back up his statement that he personally finds playing with a low resolution UI difficult? I think it would be best if we didn't start saying who is and who isn't a proper subsimmer, because of the way they like to play or their preferences. If you have supported the genre by buying the games, then that's good enough for me.


It would appear you have misinterpreted my post, I made no reference or opinion as to somebody being a 'proper subsimmer' or otherwise.

What I did respond to was ugly game as SH3, with huge dials & crap all over my screen

Quite subjective in my view, especially when taking into consideration the time and effort (there's another clue to 'veteran subsimmer' or lack thereof) taken by so many in this community to improve upon what was previously released.

[Nisgeis]

It would appear you have misinterpreted my post

I'm pleased to hear that. It sounded for a moment like you were saying that he wasn't a true subsim veteran.

[Jimbuna]

I'm pleased to hear that. It sounded for a moment like you were saying that he wasn't a true subsim veteran.


Nope, not my style...or of sufficient importance considering the subject matter.

[IanC]

I'm pleased to hear that. It sounded for a moment like you were saying that he wasn't a true subsim veteran.

If somebody says "SH3 is ancient and ugly" or another posts like purdy graphics is the most important thing in a subsim, I can almost guarantee you that they are anything but subsim veterans.
If we mean by "subsim veteran" as gaming experience playing submarine simulations throughout the years.
I'll let you figure out the reasons why.

[Nisgeis]

If we mean by "subsim veteran" as gaming experience playing submarine simulations throughout the years.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what that means, what are you saying?

[IanC]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what that means, what are you saying?

Gee that's too bad

[Nisgeis]

Gee that's too bad

That's mature.

EDIT: OK, I think you're probably just reacting because I said you'd communicated poorly in another thread, but seriously what you typed doesn't make any sense. I could guess at what you mean, but that might not be what you meant.

[IanC]

That's mature.

EDIT: OK, I think you're probably just reacting because I said you'd communicated poorly in another thread, but seriously what you typed doesn't make any sense. I could guess at what you mean, but that might not be what you meant.

:haha:... Nisgeis you can only do that trick of saying you don't understand and then insult by saying somebody doesn't make sense, so many times. It's already getting old.
Now you're either going to ask me again what I mean by that, or act like a victim... classic forum tricks.

[Nisgeis]

:haha:... Nisgeis you can only do that trick of saying you don't understand and then insult by saying somebody doesn't make sense, so many times. It's already getting old.
Now you're either going to ask me again what I mean by that, or act like a victim... classic forum tricks.

I'm sorry that I offended you by saying that I didn't understand what you wrote. That wasn't my intention. I did not mean to insult you either.

I find a good healthy debate much more effective than forum tricks. If you'd care to discuss your point of view, then I'm all for that. This is a discussion forum, after all.

[Moeceefus]

why does it seem that more sh3 players hang out in the sh5 forums more than they do in the sh3 forums? i figured the bashing would end eventually and people would just accept what is and move on, but it hasn't. 9 out of 10 threads are about drm sucks, ubi sucks, or i've never played it, but sh5 sucks. we get it. sh5 sucks and sh3+gwx is the best, enjoy it. when will it all end here really? why not bash it on the sh3 forums instead? sh3 players seem to be the most interested in it anyways.

[Nisgeis]

Well, the DRM does suck :). The poll set up by McBeck shows that 65% would buy the game if the DRM were removed and fairs fair - you can't be expected to buy a game that you can't play. What is annoying though is the people who come in here on the pre-text of 'checking for updates' and end up posting about how they'd never buy SH5, even if it was the best game ever. I suspect there are a few people out there walking about without noses. There aren't really a lot of them though it's just a handful that post the same stuff over and over again. As to why the don't do it in the SH3 forum, probably because they wouldn't get the same reaction. Also, it would be completely off topic!

[Madox58]

it's essentially designed for a computer with the screen resolution and computing power of my phone.


Oh CRAP!
:o
Now I have to worry about people playing SH3 on phones hitting me
while I'm out rideing my Triumph!
:nope:
:haha:

[FIREWALL]

To bad Neal can't afford 3 websites. :haha:

I guess I know now why UBISOFT has separate sites for each.


Oh, I almost forgot it's been already posted here those sites are going down the toilet. :O:

[Madox58]

That would be:

Toilette!

Just so they understand.

[Reece]

To bad Neal can't afford 3 websites. :haha:

I guess I know now why UBISOFT has separate sites for each.


Oh, I almost forgot it's been already posted here those sites are going down the toilet. :O:That's because UBI creates the problems that Subsim members later have to fix!:yep:

[JScones]

Well, kind of what I was getting at was if they did have unlimited time, effort and money. I know that's not economically feasible, but ah well. :D
Then everyone would be here bitchin' about how long it's taking...same outcome, just a different subject... :haha:

[Gerald]

Then everyone would be here bitchin' about how long it's taking...same outcome, just a different subject... :haha:

indispensable, :yep:

[janh]

Then everyone would be here bitchin' about how long it's taking...same outcome, just a different subject... :haha:

Yeah, but those bitching about nothing more than time and delay are easily recognizable as kids, and I wouldn't bother about such topics. Easier to dismiss than criticism of the game quality and features.

After buying computer games for about 20 years, I am used to postponed and delayed releases. I actually don't buy games anymore before they hit the market and I follow forums for a couple of weeks and up to many months to see how good and novel a game really is -- until I really recognize the quality. Like with each new product, the ones who buy it first are unfortunately the ones helping to fix the initial problems, be it software or an iPad. Poor fella's that preordered SHV.

The patching thing is a new issue sind high-throughput internet is available, and delays due to that as well. Before that age simply game quality was much better, and companies couldn't afford sending people 3 new sets of disks or CD's per mail as "free patches" -- the gold version had to be in a much better state than games are released today. But again, I have all time to wait for proper patching, if in the end what I get is best quality. Too bad that it wasn't such at release, but after all that is not my loss but that of game companies. Their early release strategy has been their sinking sales numbers for for a couple of years now, and they really need to fix that.

[thyro]

After buying computer games for about 20 years, I am used to postponed and delayed releases. I actually don't buy games anymore before they hit the market and I follow forums for a couple of weeks and up to many months to see how good and novel a game really is -- until I really recognize the quality. Like with each new product, the ones who buy it first are unfortunately the ones helping to fix the initial problems, be it software or an iPad. Poor fella's that preordered SHV.

Same here m8... I let the dust come down and rather than be in an overnight queue like some fan-idiots do to become the 1st to get the "game" and then jump on guns saying how frustrated they are coz of bugs or coz of missing stuff, etc.

Anyway, I'm one of those 65% that I'll wait till SH5 gets DRM free to buy it or when SH5 with DRM reaches £1.99 (on 75% price discount lists) then for that price I wouldn't be that bothered to waste if DRM allows me to play or not - and at least will have a bunch of patches on top of it for a give-away price sale.