View Full Version : I give up.
mookiemookie
03-04-10, 12:43 AM
I hate to pile on with yet another thread about this sort of thing, buuuut....
I've really tried to give this game a fair shake, I really have. But it seems like doing the most basic things that a submarine sim should do is like pulling teeth.
Just maneuvering your boat is a guessing game, what without having a compass or any way to know your current bearing besides looking through the 'scope or UZO and ordering "head to view". There is just no excuse, gameplay or otherwise, to have to do this as a workaround as this kind of info isn't immediately available to you. And once you DO know where you're headed, changing direction is not at all easy. You have to head to your map and drag your waypoint around, or order your rudder hard a port or starboard, and then guess as to when you're on your desired heading and then order it back amidships. WHY? Why oh why does something as basic and simple as maneuvering need to be that difficult?
Do you have enough fuel or battery life left to get where you need to go? Guess and see, or click through 2 menus to just find out how much fuel you have remaining. It shouldn't be that hard.
Your watch crew is deaf, dumb and blind. Trying to intercept a convoy is another guessing game. Your watch crew won't tell you that they've seen anything until you come out of TC yourself, and at that point you're most likely 500 meters from a DD. Good luck guessing when to go back to 1x TC so that this doesn't happen. I suppose it makes sense -in the game there's only 3 men on watch, all of them without binoculars, not the historical 4 or 5. No wonder they can't see anything.
Automatic targeting is like deciphering hieroglyphics. What are the 1, 2, 3, dots for? Who knows?! How do you line them up to get a firing solution? Guess and see! No thanks. Nowhere is it explained how this thing works. The manual devotes about 3 vague sentences to this. You'd think one of the goals of the simulation would warrant more of an explanation.
Manual targeting is not much better. A stadimeter that doesn't reliably tell you range is not much good. And without a proper range reading, you can just toss out the rest of your firing solution because it won't mean anything. Without the tools to do what I need to do - sink ships - then why the heck am I even out at sea?
So now let's say by luck and the grace of God, the stars have aligned correctly for you and you've managed to guess correctly what direction you need to be headed in, you've guessed correctly when you needed to come out of TC to set up an attack, you've guessed correctly the range to your target and you've shot your torpedoes. Now it's time for evasion. Well, hope you're ready for more guessing - this time you need to guess the magic speed you need to be doing to maintain your ordered depth, and of course you've guessed at what depth you ordered because the depth gauge is about 10 pixels high.
Ordering your crew to perform the most perfunctory tasks is another guessing game. Do you have enough "morale points" to order silent running? Guess what!? Your XO is in a cranky mood today so no morale points and no silent running for you, Kaleun! Someone get my Luger. I've got a clip full of morale points for you.
I can see that there was a lot of good ideas that the dev team wanted to do with this sim. But the missing and/or broken parts of it just make it a chore to get basic things done. I should be worried about tactically how to attack this convoy. Not worried about guessing how to perform the basic tasks I need to do in order to get this done. I hope that they're listening to our gripes and will address some of this in a patch. I hope that there are some blessed patient modders who can do something with what we've been given...I'd love them to spend their time adding to the game, not having to fix stuff that should work right in the first place.
I want a sub sim, not a guessing game. Until I have more of the former and less of the latter, I consider firing up SH5 to be an exercise in trying my patience, not an exercise in sinking ships.
Another one in a string of what are sadly well-justified posts of critique.
I just hope these posts and not "this game sux" keep getting through so that the developers are aware of what needs to be fixed.
I do partially blame my situational awareness habits in SHIII/IV for disorienting me in SHV, but there's no question that some of the functionality should've never been changed.
Ah well. I don't yet despair. There's always older titles to go back to while waiting on this one to kick its' biggest issues (most notably morale).
Herr Graf
03-04-10, 12:52 AM
Yeah but dude,
the water looks awesome!!
*runs and ducks*
Steeltrap
03-04-10, 12:57 AM
Yeah but dude,
the water looks awesome!!
*runs and ducks*
:har:
(Sadly, that's part of the problem; people saying things like that and MEANING them.)
many good points..good post
Turbografx
03-04-10, 01:01 AM
How can you not think this is the best game in the series!1?!?one?
You must be blind. This is so much better than SH and AoD, I mean, just LOOK at the graphics! Learn 2 videogame...
*sarcasm off*:|\\
Steeltrap
03-04-10, 01:02 AM
Another one in a string of what are sadly well-justified posts of critique.
I just hope these posts and not "this game sux" keep getting through so that the developers are aware of what needs to be fixed.
CCIP, surely you don't think the Devs, who have spent time with SubSim members and posted on these boards, have any doubt as to what needs fixing? How could they not know??
Consider a fundamental thing like navigation. Fact is, especially during tracking, approach and attack, the captain would order VERY specific courses based on what was known of the enemy's speed and track. That's just "Submarine attack 1.01". You can, and probably have (I have), read it in any number of books by people who were there and did it. For them to have left it in the state people are saying they have is quite extraordinary. Even so, they can hardly be unaware of it, unless they are completely clueless about how subs operated in WWII.
epic post.
I hope the devs see it.
Oh absolutely. I'm not arguing against that. You CAN get that information in the game, just that it's not how we're used to it and, ahem, not exactly completely logical. I will totally agree that the design of the interface is rather poor for anyone who expects to play with anything but simplified settings where instrumentation and solid grasp on situational awareness don't matter. As I said elsewhere, I think it's important to acknowledge that part of the issue is our own "old" SHIII/IV situational awareness habits, but the current interface couldn't be any less helpful in this.
Steeltrap
03-04-10, 01:13 AM
I, for one, have never understood why you can't simply hit a command (let's say 'N') whereupon a box pops up and you input 3 digits for the course you want.
'N'
'135'
response = new course 135; coming to 135 or whatever you like.
How hard can it be? Isn't it what all the books and real ex-navy guys keep saying what happens??
It's just symptomatic of the game industry, I'm afraid. It's ironic that the mindblowing abilities of PCs compared with 10 years ago are coinciding with incredibly poorly written, poorly tested dross as games.
The fact is that well... someone, somewhere, imagined that people like clicking shiny buttons for very generic orders.
Clearly, that's resulted in an outcome that players of a more serious breed can't approve of.
I think the game's design went way, way too far in pushing the whole "you are the captain, you don't have your hands on the dials" point, forgetting one other, EXTREMELY important fact about a captain: yes your hands are off the buttons, but as the captain you NEED to be precisely aware of the situation and have a chance to respond to it with precise orders. Especially on the awareness front, the way the game is presented just won't cut it. Also as the captain, you NEED to have a way to make sure that your crew gets things done, NOW. Without having to go up in their face and "dialogue" them or pat them on the bottom.
Unless, of course, you play with external camera, map contacts and auto aim... then you don't need that precision and timely-ness and can leisurely see everything from your mini-map perch.
Instant, crucial situation info (from course to nearest contact) needs to be back within a click's or keystroke's reach. Same goes for virtually all orders that would be issued by voice command or mechanical input on a real military unit.
Don't give up yet my friends.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1291980#post1291980
Highbury
03-04-10, 01:23 AM
Thanks for the heads up! Heading off to get it.
Steeltrap
03-04-10, 01:25 AM
....forgetting one other, EXTREMELY important fact about a captain: yes your hands are off the buttons, but as the captain you NEED to be precisely aware of the situation and have a chance to respond to it with precise orders. Especially on the awareness front, the way the game is presented just won't cut it. Also as the captain, you NEED to have a way to make sure that your crew gets things done, NOW. Without having to go up in their face and "dialogue" them or pat them on the bottom.
Instant, crucial situation info (from course to nearest contact) needs to be back within a click's or keystroke's reach. Same goes for virtually all orders that would be issued by voice command or mechanical input on a real military unit.
Completely agree.
I think the game's design went way, way too far in pushing the whole "you are the captain, you don't have your hands on the dials" point, forgetting one other, EXTREMELY important fact about a captain: yes your hands are off the buttons, but as the captain you NEED to be precisely aware of the situation and have a chance to respond to it with precise orders
Yep. Agreed 1000%. This seems to be the major point that they have misunderstood.
OK you're the captain, you don't need to know stuff like that.
Then the S\%%% hits the fan.
When that happens it turns out that it is really vital that the captain knows all that stuff.
Sgtmonkeynads
03-04-10, 01:38 AM
Dam straight !
They give the entire life story of you crew, but the iinstructions on how to use your main weapon is " Good aim - Bad Aim" along with the photo....
OH, how do you know how many rounds you have left, without going down and checking for yourself.
As Captain I do not want to go count shells in the middle of a fire fight inorder to know if I have enough ammo to finish the fight or not.
Laffertytig
03-04-10, 02:51 AM
another good, though disapointing to read post. this game is really beginnin to sound horrible and im so glad i waited a few days before pullin the trigger on it.
the only pluses i can glean from all these posts are that it looks real nice and the campaign is a step forward from previous versions.
i have to ask though, why didnt they just keep the core UI from SH3 or SH4 and then add most of this new stuff on top of it? that wouldve kept everyone happy.
jwilliams
03-04-10, 03:03 AM
i have to ask though, why didnt they just keep the core UI from SH3 or SH4 and then add most of this new stuff on top of it? that wouldve kept everyone happy.
Yep i agree. and i think thats what everyone wanted them to do. I know for a fact that, that is what i wanted. But no they had to totally change it.
And then, they didnt even finish it.
SH3 GWX, with new graphics, and improved AI,improved phisics, and 1st person camera view = everyone Happy. (Well ME anyway).
another good, though disapointing to read post. this game is really beginnin to sound horrible and im so glad i waited a few days before pullin the trigger on it.
the only pluses i can glean from all these posts are that it looks real nice and the campaign is a step forward from previous versions.
i have to ask though, why didnt they just keep the core UI from SH3 or SH4 and then add most of this new stuff on top of it? that wouldve kept everyone happy.
Yeah you are right. It looks real nice, and the campaign seems to work quite well (you basically chose an area of operations for 6 months or so, then move on).
But yes, there is a lot of functionality missing from the game.
I have the game, so have decided to try and tweak it to make it better, but honestly, I am not sure I could in all honesty recommend someone else buy the game.
Lord Zimoa
03-04-10, 04:42 AM
Ordering your crew to perform the most perfunctory tasks is another guessing game. Do you have enough "morale points" to order silent running? Guess what!? Your XO is in a cranky mood today so no morale points and no silent running for you, Kaleun! Someone get my Luger. I've got a clip full of morale points for you.
LOL :up:
Adriatico
03-04-10, 05:19 AM
I do partially blame my situational awareness habits in SHIII/IV for disorienting me in SHV, but there's no question that some of the functionality should've never been changed.
"Noise bar" and "U-boat mark" on surface are must have:yep:
Why they have to take out the best gameply parts from SH3 ?
:hmmm:
DeadlyWolf
03-04-10, 07:29 AM
yes your hands are off the buttons, but as the captain you NEED to be precisely aware of the situation and have a chance to respond to it with precise orders. Especially on the awareness front, the way the game is presented just won't cut it. Also as the captain, you NEED to have a way to make sure that your crew gets things done, NOW. Without having to go up in their face and "dialogue" them or pat them on the bottom.
Unless, of course, you play with external camera, map contacts and auto aim... then you don't need that precision and timely-ness and can leisurely see everything from your mini-map perch.
Instant, crucial situation info (from course to nearest contact) needs to be back within a click's or keystroke's reach. Same goes for virtually all orders that would be issued by voice command or mechanical input on a real military unit.
They give the entire life story of you crew, but the iinstructions on how to use your main weapon is " Good aim - Bad Aim" along with the photo....
OH, how do you know how many rounds you have left, without going down and checking for yourself.
As Captain I do not want to go count shells in the middle of a fire fight inorder to know if I have enough ammo to finish the fight or not.
OMG
I cannot believe they made it like that.
Galanti
03-04-10, 07:38 AM
"Noise bar" and "U-boat mark" on surface are must have:yep:
:hmmm:
Are you serious? That's the first thing that gets modded out. And U-mark is still there, on top off all the other childish console grabage added to the UI.
Decoman
03-04-10, 08:14 AM
It would be nice to see some hints in game as to how a submarine is understood to be either silent or noisy.
The game now has some info displayed about the two periscopes, and I liked learning this. It said something like that the observation periscope was more suitable for night time operations. I wonder if this is a functionality that is reflected with the options given to the player in this game.
The ekstra info in-game, about various technologies would only really make sense if this can be adequately represented in a simulated environment like the silent hunter games.
Perhaps the wording is critical. Instead of saying "The attack periscope bla bla", it should say "In ww2, the attack periscope on german u-boats were bla bla". Hinting at some limitation, and not insinuating that something is really simulated in-game.
609_Avatar
03-04-10, 08:20 AM
...Your XO is in a cranky mood today so no morale points and no silent running for you, Kaleun! Someone get my Luger. I've got a clip full of morale points for you.
:har: I'm sorry, but that just cracked me up big time!
...i have to ask though, why didnt they just keep the core UI from SH3 or SH4 and then add most of this new stuff on top of it? that wouldve kept everyone happy.
Because dev's nowadays seem almost purely motivated to take out exactly the things that people like and/or define a series. Maybe it's time some split off like happened with MOH/COD.
No silent running because I have no moral points? C'mon... bargain bin.
Sailor Steve
03-04-10, 12:15 PM
Already fixed with a little mod. No need to complain now.
Faamecanic
03-04-10, 12:27 PM
After getting burned by SH III, then SH 4...... I decided to WAIT this time to see how SH 5 shakes out.... by reading the posts here Im glad I did.
Back to GWX for me it seems......
I cant BELIEVE with the number of fans, and intelligent posts made here over the several iterations of the SH francise the devs STILL instist on implementing crap that no one wants, and NOT implementing stuff we have been begging for for YEARS now. :nope: :nope:
FIREWALL
03-04-10, 12:30 PM
I don't know. :hmmm: I keep going back and trying to play it especially with the mods that have been done so far.
I have yet to say a game is smarter than me. :03:
Armistead
03-04-10, 12:40 PM
Sounds to me like a arcade game.
I learned something long ago..never buy a released game. One, you're overpaying for it. Then it's full of bugs that take the pleasure away and most always takes a year until someone makes it playable. I don't care how pretty it is or how good some aspects are, if it's full of silly bugs I'll just sit there at the screen mad as hell.. Third point. By the time they fix it all, it's usually in the bargain bin for $10. Maybe it should be the other way around. Maybe it should sell for $10 released and the top dollar charged when it's fixed.
Things are fine in the Pacific and I'll be staying here for some time.
Uber Gruber
03-04-10, 12:40 PM
Perhapps if you had held off from buying it till UBI had addressed the issues and removed DRM then you wouldn't feel so disapointed. It's not like you weren't aware of it's shortcomings prior to purchase.....so you only have your self to blame me ol china.:O:
Goatman455
03-04-10, 12:42 PM
"I do partially blame my situational awareness habits in SHIII/IV for disorienting me in SHV, but there's no question that some of the functionality should've never been changed."
Sequels are suppossed to improve on stuff, not throw stuff out the window that already worked.
"I am such an idiot for thinking SH5 would be anything like SH3 or 4". NO, you aren't. The devs are idiots: IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT!
SteamWake
03-04-10, 12:48 PM
A mod required to add a compass to a naval simulator game :haha::har: :rotfl2:
Kind of sad really.
I was going to ask a question about whether there is a calendar with the phases of the moon on it like way back in SH2 but I guess if there is no easily reachable compass it's probably not there, is it? Lol...oh well never mind.
I hadn't heard about 'morale points' until today so can i just ask: seriously? I mean, seriously?
I was even more dead set against buying it when I first read this but now I'm tempted just to see it for myself. Seems less 'Sub sim' and more 'Sub Sims' to me.
Frederf
03-04-10, 12:58 PM
"I do partially blame my situational awareness habits in SHIII/IV for disorienting me in SHV, but there's no question that some of the functionality should've never been changed."
Sequels are suppossed to improve on stuff, not throw stuff out the window that already worked.
"I am such an idiot for thinking SH5 would be anything like SH3 or 4". NO, you aren't. The devs are idiots: IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT!
The SH3/SH4 UI was stupid. What if your driving instructor told you to click on your 2D command bar, on the speedometer gauge to go faster? That's how SH3/4 worked, you clicked on a 2D command bar instead of commanding your crew.
SteamWake
03-04-10, 01:00 PM
The SH3/SH4 UI was stupid. What if your driving instructor told you to click on your 2D command bar, on the speedometer gauge to go faster? That's how SH3/4 worked, you clicked on a 2D command bar instead of commanding your crew.
Commanding my crew? I'm sorry I might be missing something but I have not seen anywhere I can command my crew to change course, speed, or just about anything other than ask about their mother or go to battle stations.
I think you need to remember that we're playing a game here. The interface will always be a compromise until we have computers so smart that we will actually be able to talk to our crew (and no, voice command with pre-set phrases doesn't quite count).
There is no problem with an interface, as long as it a) allows you to maintain precise situational awareness; b) allows you to issue precise commands, especially as far as controlling the orientation of your sub. How that's done should definitely be seen within reasonable technological limits and user habits - so fine, make it accessible via clicks. Just as long as it's possible to get information and give orders on something as basic as submarine orientation quickly.
Ping Jockey
03-04-10, 01:40 PM
UBISOFT has to be embarrassed about SH5!! What a joke it is. :down::down::down:
Iron Budokan
03-04-10, 02:00 PM
A mod required to add a compass to a naval simulator game :haha::har: :rotfl2:
Kind of sad really.
It's like a new atrocity is documented with this game every hour on the hour. Unbelievable. A naval sim without a compass.
Seriously. You can't make this stuff up. What slackjawed genius at Ubi thought that was a good idea....? :rotfl2:
I'm sure all of us who were present for the run up and release of previous Silent Hunter games remember all of the negative comments and threads that kicked out. I expected exactly the same for this one. What worries me though, is that I'm seeing stuff from people like CCIP, GoldenRivet, MookieMookie and others that is rather less than glowing - and these are people who, although I don't always agree with their points, I generally hold to be pretty forthright and supportive of the scene and the franchise. This alone marks it as different from previous releases.
I know there is a prevalent view that modders and patches will make the game better but SteamWake is very much correct that having to mod in a compass to a naval sim is pretty bad. If we are having to actually mod in the absolute basics like compasses I think we are in for a very, very long journey.
mikeydredd
03-04-10, 02:59 PM
Probably the same slack jawed genius that thought that DRM farce would stop the pirates.
I'd like to give whoever that was a clip full of 9mm morale points as well.
:arrgh!:
EAF274 Johan
03-04-10, 03:12 PM
Another disappointed customer here :cry:
I honestly want to like SH5, but the way it is now I can't. If they said they wanted to make a subsim more accessible... accessible to whom? No matter how "casual" a gamer you are, if basic game functions aren't decribed properly in the game's documentation, or easily found through the game's interface, then the game is NOT accessible.
kapitan_zur_see
03-04-10, 03:33 PM
I find it especially funny and ironic that this game, though supposed to be more friendly to casual gamer, is actually more difficult to play even for the die hard simmers like us than previous SH! because of all this "guess and see" stuffs and failing reduced-but-over-complicated interface :rotfl2:
And they actually succeeded to make it even more plagued by lack of documentation than before lol! The tutorial is a farce that will let the casual gamer basically wondering what to do and how to do just about 80% of the game... It just teach how to move your avatar and that's it, TDC whilst used in this tutorial, is an "I order you to you use it NOW!"... It's nowhere explained how it works, so I can't imagine the effect on someone who never heard of TDC before...
As the game is right out of the box, it's nearly impossible for a non-subsimmer to sort it out. They'll quickly quit trying :doh:
col_Kurtz
03-04-10, 03:41 PM
Sounds to me like a arcade game.
I learned something long ago..never buy a released game. One, you're overpaying for it. Then it's full of bugs that take the pleasure away and most always takes a year until someone makes it playable. I don't care how pretty it is or how good some aspects are, if it's full of silly bugs I'll just sit there at the screen mad as hell.. Third point. By the time they fix it all, it's usually in the bargain bin for $10. Maybe it should be the other way around. Maybe it should sell for $10 released and the top dollar charged when it's fixed.
Things are fine in the Pacific and I'll be staying here for some time.
Right.
I think they should have created a small bowl (version for notebooks players) or sink (ver. for PC/home players) with the water and the one U-boat putted on the waves. It will be a SH6 :haha:
OttoSchuhart
03-04-10, 04:17 PM
This morale thing really remains a mystery to me. I got the idea that you should care for your crew and take them to the next level, no problem at all. But where is the point when the XO denies to order silent running in a critical and life-threatening situation because he's out of morale points??? :hmmm: So realistic. I know there's already a mod to get rid of these constraints, but what I don't quite understand is how UBI could even think of implementing this "feature"?
Jimbuna
03-04-10, 04:19 PM
A good informative original post Mark http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif
mookiemookie
03-04-10, 04:31 PM
A good informative original post Mark http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif
I wish it weren't, Jim. I keep going back...I'm trying to like it. At least some of the very early mods, such as the ones that add the compass and the one that removes morale costs for things are at least temporary band-aids. Keeping your TC low also prevents map contacts from disappearing - I think this may help when trying to intercept ships. That is one of the most glaring problems at this point: a watch crew that doesn't watch. I need to know as soon as something is spotted. Without that functionality, I am reduced to having to man the watch in real time myself, and I just don't have the time or patience to do that.
I keep hoping and hoping that patches and mods will turn this into something great, because I think it can be. It's just going to take a while.
Jimbuna
03-04-10, 04:51 PM
I keep hoping and hoping that patches and mods will turn this into something great, because I think it can be. It's just going to take a while.
Rgr that mate http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif
EnDSchultz
03-04-10, 07:08 PM
I don't see why everyone's so surprised. It seems obvious game companies aren't in the business of making high-quality software anymore. They're in the business of hyping people up and releasing a piece of garbage as cheaply as possible. Steam makes this even easier, because they don't even have to pay for the production of so many hard copies, yet still have thousands of hapless fools buy their 'game' for $50 on release day without the possibility of a refund. Then they can throw a few bones in the form of patches to make the game almost playable in hopes the modders will do the rest.
Don't be so upset about the game, just accept that it wasn't meant to please anybody, but rather to make an easy buck.
Frederf
03-04-10, 08:19 PM
Commanding my crew? I'm sorry I might be missing something but I have not seen anywhere I can command my crew to change course, speed, or just about anything other than ask about their mother or go to battle stations.
You're talking about the SH5 way of doing things. I'm talking about the mythological "right way" where you click on the appropriate crew member or speaking tube and through a momentary pop up rattle off an order to a specific crew member with precision, speed, and realism.
I think you need to remember that we're playing a game here. The interface will always be a compromise until we have computers so smart that we will actually be able to talk to our crew (and no, voice command with pre-set phrases doesn't quite count).
There is no problem with an interface, as long as it a) allows you to maintain precise situational awareness; b) allows you to issue precise commands, especially as far as controlling the orientation of your sub. How that's done should definitely be seen within reasonable technological limits and user habits - so fine, make it accessible via clicks. Just as long as it's possible to get information and give orders on something as basic as submarine orientation quickly.
The UI should avoid whenever possible reminding you that you are playing a game. Wanting a "gamey" interface over something potentially more natural is not where my head is at. The interface may be a compromise but what's capable with mouse interaction is far beyond the antiquated method used in SH3/4. Quickness of control and readiness of information is not an end to itself. If you're in the aft torp room and the closest repeater compass is 3 compartments away then knowing your heading should require you to go look and not float magically in your vision even when in the W.C. The ease of control and immediacy of information should mirror real life and not simply strive to be easier on the gamer.
. Quickness of control and readiness of information is not an end to itself. If you're in the aft torp room and the closest repeater compass is 3 compartments away then knowing your heading should require you to go look and not float magically in your vision even when in the W.C. The ease of control and immediacy of information should mirror real life and not simply strive to be easier on the gamer.
I would disagree with that - the problem is that the whole submarine is connected by voice/telephone, and you would be able to get that information and give orders a lot quicker in reality than the time it'd take you to walk to the compass.
I would be absolutely fine with something like that, but if at the same time it was somehow possible to just elicit the information from the crew and issue all the orders you need. Since that's not technologically possible right now, I think an overlay interface like this is a fair enough compromise.
starbird
03-04-10, 08:32 PM
As a captain, I'm pretty sure I could yell out 'whats our course' from anywhere on the boat and get an answer. There are about 40 other people onboard, surely someone is near a repeater and can read it.
Steeltrap
03-04-10, 08:35 PM
The thing I cannot understand is why developers have difficulty recreating what is such a well documented period of history.
Want to know how a submarine was run or commanded? How it performed in technical terms? What was possible and what was not? Read about it in the thousands of documents, including those written by the military organisations that owned and operated the subs. If that's not good enough for you, read about it in the published memoirs of those who were there and did the jobs. As an example, there's enough material in Dick O'Kane's books, Clear the Bridge and Wahoo, to simulate a WWII USA Fleet Boat to any level of detail you like.
How they can come up with what I'm reading about SH5 beggars belief.
People can discuss the interface all they like, but the central point remains: if you are pretending to simulate the experiences of a commander of a submarine in WWII then it should be representative of the collective records available. It seems to me it is anything but.
As I mentioned elsewhere though, is that what the game was really trying to do? I really don't think so. I don't think this game is trying to be Clay Blair's U-boat War, it's trying to be Das Boot (and more the movie than the book). This doesn't mean it has to be inaccurate, nor does it excuse the errors, but I think it's not necessarily accurate to see the game's goal as presenting an absolute, as-it-happened, statistically-accurate reality. Why that is the case is a much longer discussion.
Iron Budokan
03-04-10, 08:49 PM
People can discuss the interface all they like, but the central point remains: if you are pretending to simulate the experiences of a commander of a submarine in WWII then it should be representative of the collective records available. It seems to me it is anything but.
But, see, I think that's the point.
Ubi made a corporate decision to move this game from "simulation" to something resembling arcade and RPG, even including unlockable content which is pure console. Therefore, they didn't have to concentrate on simulating the experiences of a U-boat commander to the degree we had become accustomed to, or many of us wanted, because the game they were developing didn't need those hard core simulation elements in it.
In other words, they knew they were dumbing it down. So why bother to include content that would clash with the arcade profile they had decided upon?
Else, how can you possibly explain the missing compass? In a naval war game, of all games....? :shifty:
brett25
03-04-10, 09:43 PM
thanks for this review. It seems like a series of bad review are now coming out as the game finds itself on more and more PC. There was a positive first wave, but this review feels very honest to me, and I wonder f the positive ones were from people who will laud this game to hang on to a point or to bolster a position they may have...This review is confirming everything I was worried about all along.
I will not be buying SH5 for a while now...SH3 is just fine, thanks
But SH5 sure is purty and all....:woot:
JScones
03-05-10, 01:06 AM
Already fixed with a little mod. No need to complain now.
Correction: Already worked around with a little mod. Not fixed at all. Big difference. ;)
Wolfmanjack
03-05-10, 01:51 AM
thanks for this review. It seems like a series of bad review are now coming out as the game finds itself on more and more PC. There was a positive first wave, but this review feels very honest to me, and I wonder f the positive ones were from people who will laud this game to hang on to a point or to bolster a position they may have...This review is confirming everything I was worried about all along.
I will not be buying SH5 for a while now...SH3 is just fine, thanks
But SH5 sure is purty and all....:woot:
That is because you have things like this going on...
"Jim Sterling writes: "We hear about these situations far too much, where a publisher is accused of attempting to broker a guaranteed favorable review from a press outlet (http://www.n4g.com/ps3/News-424948.aspx#). The latest to face such allegations is Ubisoft, having been named and shamed by German magazine Bild Spiele for demanding a high score for Assassin's Creed 2. ""
Source =
www.n4g.com/ps3/News-424948.aspx (http://www.n4g.com/ps3/News-424948.aspx)
Not to mention there are a few that are not shy about blatantly giving favorable reviews when the game is obviously broken when you buy it.
You also have the issue of what a reviewer see's pre release (demo/etc) is usually a optimized version.. IE doesn't reflect the true product at release.
Back to the OP points...
MY GOD WHAT HAVE THEY DONE WITH THE INTERFACE?!? :o
Yesterday evening I paid a visit to a friend and discovered he got SH5. He told me how disappointed he was, coming from SH3 and SH4, that the interface had been completely reworked.
I asked him to see it and, my God, he's right. :down:
I haven't played SH3 or SH4 in a year so I don't remeber shortcuts or anything. But I do remeber that all the info I needed was readily available.
Now, it's a REAL mess.
The SH3 interface was very functional and stylish. With SH4 they messed things a bit but it still worked. After less than one hour of SH5, I felt frustrated and exhausted.
Someone says the developers lurk often these forums. Back in the days of SH3 and 4 I remeber a lot of people asking more realism in the simulation (sonar, depth charges, ship inertia and turn ratio) but very few crticis aimed at the interface. While I like the idea of strolling through the sub like a FPS, once the novelty wears out (and with only one boat available), I want to reach every information, every battle station, every command in a matter of 1 click!
I'm glad I didn't buy this. I have doubts that modder can correct this as the interface is probably hard coded into the game itself.
GFC Christian
03-05-10, 03:04 AM
MY GOD WHAT HAVE THEY DONE WITH THE INTERFACE?!? :o
Its new, thats it ! Give it a try, get used to it or wait for a mod..... honestly it took me 30 minutes to get used to it and now its fine. I'm really amazed how many people comment and/or complain tho they have no copy of SH5 or even played it for a while. :hmmm:
SH5 is not perfect, not free of bugs and for sure there are lot of things UBI has to improve, but it works, looks awesome and obviously UBI is working on it. IMO three good reasons to stay tuned.
"Jammert nicht, kämpft !" (Don't moan, fight !) :D
P.S.: ......anybody of you played Armed Assault 2 ? You should ! It makes you modest and grateful. :03:
JackAubrey
03-05-10, 03:41 AM
P.S.: ......anybody of you played Armed Assault 2 ? You should ! It makes you modest and grateful. :03:
I do. Regularly. But I don't see why it should make me modest and grateful. For what?
In ArmA2:
I do not have to ask my Subordinate about his Mother to make him shoot back.
My Sniper does not have the ability to make bullets fly faster by reaching for his double-cut file and activating "Live Cartridge Pimping Lvl. 2".
Enemies do not pop up from nowhere.
My Gun does not cease to function suddenly.
Shots land in the general direction the gun was pointed in.
My Boss does not stand in the middle of a Field and tell me to "Come in".
Friendly AI does call out enemy contacts
Enemy AI actually shoots back
The AI does not run against walls until it dies
I can look at my compass
And last, but not least:
I can play it, even when my Internet connection goes down. Try that with SH5.
:woot::D
I play arma2 constantly and what the devs do is fantastic.
They release beta patches to the public and the latest patch makes it perfect but also there is ALOT more happening on the battlefield than SH5.
Also arma2 stayed true to it's simulation roots, SH5 did not.
Codemasters dumped Bohemia interactive, took the original operation flashpoint name and with a bigger team and bigger budget released to total mess that is operation flaspoint dragon rising.
Kudos to BI for what they have done, those guys at least deserve credit for what they did.
SH5 is what op flashpoint DR is to arma2.
GFC Christian
03-05-10, 05:06 AM
I do. Regularly. But I don't see why it should make me modest and grateful. For what?
:woot::D
Come on, you know exactly what I'm talking about, don't you ? So here we go..
I do not have to ask my Subordinate about his Mother to make him shoot back. :haha:...good one. They surely will implement it sooner or later with this ACE2 sh*it !
My Sniper does not have the ability to make bullets fly faster by reaching for his double-cut file and activating "Live Cartridge Pimping Lvl. 2". Your sniper dosen't even have the ability to improve anything...
Enemies do not pop up from nowhere.Your are sure we talking about Armed Assault 2 ? The game where the enemies dive into the terrain like a sub and suddenly appear in front or next to you ?
My Gun does not cease to function suddenly.A Bug or a realistic feature ? Who knows..... :hmmm:
Shots land in the general direction the gun was pointed in.They do not in SH5 ? Never noted until now...
My Boss does not stand in the middle of a Field and tell me to "Come in".Have you ever tried to ask him about his mum ?
Friendly AI does call out enemy contactsThat YOU can't see due to the outdated graphic engine and horrible rendered terrain details.
Enemy AI actually shoots backYes....actually over 750m with an AK74 w/o scope at night w/o nighgoogles directly between your eyes ! That's what I call "artifical intelligence
The AI does not run against walls until it diesBut they walk and shoot through walls....so what ?
I can look at my compassThat makes the difference.... :yawn:
I'm leading an Armed Assault Community running two dedicated servers. We are so fed up with it that we decided to wait for "Operation Arrowhead" that hopefully will fix some of the above mentioned. Since years the bug list of Armed Assault is longer than the list of SH5 will ever be, and many of the BETA Patches made things more worse !
Next to this; due to the release of the editing tools for SH5 right on your copy this game has the same potential as Armed Assault. SH5 is the platform and now it's up to the community.
And "last but not least"; DRM is an epic fail as it got already succesfully hacked and probably UBI invested more time to get it up i/o fixing bugs prior to the release. But don't fool around, cause as soon as YOU start your system the all world knows that YOU are online....UBI is only one more company on that list.
my2cent
P.S.: ...sorry for getting off topic. :oops:
Ishigami
03-05-10, 05:37 AM
The interface for me is basically the virtual form of orders and feedback.
Clicking on a heading in a compass is the same for me as saying “change course to NNW”. I can’t directly ask the game to give me an update on the heading and walking around and clicking on crew members or reading real dials is even slower and more inefficient than reality. Reading a compass on the HUD is the same for me as turning around and asking a crew member “what is our heading?”
It is a videogame after all, I can’t talk to it but I can click or press on buttons. I may be the captain and as such I’m not directly in charge of all systems but reading and clicking on the dials and buttons is the way I communicate with the game and vice versa.
I actually like the sleek new design of the HUD but I disapprove of its limited range of functions. I was confused when I got into the game and had neither heading indication nor the option to order a certain heading.
The I was shocked that I neither got dials for rudder controls but “steer” by pressing the arrow keys and 0 an the number pad, which is kind of a problem for me because I don’t have a number pad!
While I like some RPG elements as motivation factor, you know an experienced crew is supposed to be better than one just out of training and it certainly is nice to see that the crew performances better over time and service. However I think it is utmost ridiculously that I need points to perform some of the most basic operations. It shouldn’t be like that.
Well as far as I can see there is nothing new with the series. Ubi releases a pile of crap and potential and it is up the devoted moders to fix and reveal it…
Yskonyn
03-05-10, 05:48 AM
Excellent point Ishigami! Well said.
Since day one the debate in simulators has been realism and wether certain 'gamey' aspects should be replaced by hard-core realism.
SH5 is a nice example why certain features like this won't work in a video game.
In front of your computer we, kaleuns, are always handicapped in terms of (among others) field of view, sensory information gathering (hearing, seeing, feeling and smelling) to name a few.
It will never be like 'we are there'. The game can only create a decent atmosphere to get us into the mood, but the interface makes a big difference wether that immersion is going to be fun and actually adding to the feeling of being there.
Indeed HUD indicators give us a general overview of the situation in the game much like we could have reading dials and communicating with crew members in the sub when we would actually be there.
This would be an almost automatic way for a captain to get 'the picture' in his head of what the situation is in and around the sub.
As said above we lack many forms of feedback in front of our pc's and so a decent interface is vital for basic (and advanced) control of the game (or any game for that matter) regardless of how 'gamey' that may sound.
Hello people.
As a romanian I want to aplogise for the Ubisoft Romania team. I am ashamed they released this crappy game. Unfortunately the game is really bad. In my opinion with the exception of graphics there isn't much to admire. The game stayed installed on my PC only 15 minutes an then uninstall pronto. However there is still hope. I bet will soon see GWX5. Perhaps they could adapt GWX3 for SH5. I hope my fellow romanian Karamzovnew will release a GUI. Where are you sir OLC?, Makman, Hsie. C'mon mates! Don't abandon us. Thomsen please return! Let loose The Grey Wolves once again!
You'll see. In about a year's time after 3 or 4 patches and 2 or 3 supermods we will laugh at these post.
I tried to find a reason for the existence of such a bad game and the only thing a could find is:" It's all about the Benjamins baby"!
Its new, thats it ! Give it a try, get used to it or wait for a mod..... honestly it took me 30 minutes to get used to it and now its fine. I'm really amazed how many people comment and/or complain tho they have no copy of SH5 or even played it for a while. :hmmm:
I played it for nearly one hour and as I said in my previous post, I didn't touch any other sub sim in the past year, so it was almost as a fresh start.
Giving orders is okay but I also want to have access plenty of info and commands concentrated in a sleek and comprehensive interface.
Some people argue that Silent Hunter is a submarine commander simulation.
But a sub, or a ship, is a collection of several individuals each with its own mind, eyes, ears and expertise. In Silent Hunter if you're distracted or busy, there are no other humans taking care of your orders in a meaningful way: just a simple 'autopilot' that follows blindly your last command.
That's why I maintain that the game must provide at any moment all the info needed to make conscious decisions and the controls must be equally simple and immediate. You're alone. A sub has a bridge full of experienced professionals and dozens of sailors on duty at any time.
With this new SH5 interface, it seemed to me that I was effectively unable to manage an emergency situation. And it wasn't just because of my inexperience. The interface felt very clumsy. It lacked the info I wanted to have all the time under my eyes.
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