DD not responding to attacks?

[malkuth74]

My next little harp I have. Anyone notice that the DD protecting convoys do nothing when one of the ships they are protecting blow up. they just keep steaming full speed ahead.

the only way I got a DD to respond to me was when I surfaced and thought they were far enough away for I could shell a burning Merchant ship. But once I surfaced they finally came running for me.

So anyone notice any real DD action vs you? I know its early in the war still and maybe they are green crews and all... But usually when a ship goes boom... you would think they would at least change course to look for you. LOL. wow.

[Bubblehead1980]

check the mission editor and see what skill level they are set to(if you can in SH 5) I know in SH 4 I found out one reason enemy DD's were usually so easy, 90% were set to novice or poor skill level.They prob did it again.

[coasterdigi]

Yea, I just experienced something similar as I blasted through the middle of a convoy with guns blazing :cool:

The DD DID hit me after awhile, though, so I got to experience some flooding. Neat!

[JohnnyMacintosh]

Yeah, the AI Escorts need some serious tuning. I can just walk into a convoy, blow up half the stuff, and leave, without the escorts doing anything. And harbor defenses need ramping up... Trust me when I say that its REALLY easy to get into Scapa Flow.

[malkuth74]

Planes also don't seem to respond well to the player ship.

Had tones fly over me but not do anything.

Something is certainly wrong with the AI I think. Don't think we can chalk it up to green crews.

[CCIP]

I've been digging through the script files in the game and there's some stuff that strikes me as odd in the AI scripting. I have a sneaking suspicion that some of these scripts are half-finished and not working as intended, and actually AI skill level setting may be having something to do with it.

For what it's worth, all the reports I'm getting suggest that at least novice-level air AI isn't working, while the mechanism that forces DD AI to go into alert mode and search the area where the attack happened is broken. Both could easily be down to broken scripts and I hope the devs look at this quickly for the next patch.

[joejccva71]

I've been digging through the script files in the game and there's some stuff that strikes me as odd in the AI scripting. I have a sneaking suspicion that some of these scripts are half-finished and not working as intended, and actually AI skill level setting may be having something to do with it.

For what it's worth, all the reports I'm getting suggest that at least novice-level air AI isn't working, while the mechanism that forces DD AI to go into alert mode and search the area where the attack happened is broken. Both could easily be down to broken scripts and I hope the devs look at this quickly for the next patch.

I don't understand how something so gamebreaking as DD AI could have been not tested before release. I thought the AI was supposed to be much more robust and intuitive in this new title.

[malkuth74]

I don't understand how something so gamebreaking as DD AI could have been not tested before release. I thought the AI was supposed to be much more robust and intuitive in this new title.

Maybe the devs have the same mantra lots of people on these boards have....

Oh the Modders will fix it.:rotfl2:

[walsh2509]

early war 39-40 was it not the case that navy cover for merchants was only from 200+miles out and the early equipment as they say could hardly find an elephant in a room.

I understand that DD should be tweaked but not to jump to overpowering in the early years just becuase it doesn't feel right.

[Bilge_Rat]

could be based on skill levels. In the Narvik single mission, DD's spotted my periscope and started firing at it from a fairly long range.

[AVGWarhawk]

early war 39-40 was it not the case that navy cover for merchants was only from 200+miles out and the early equipment as they say could hardly find an elephant in a room.

I understand that DD should be tweaked but not to jump to overpowering in the early years just becuase it doesn't feel right.

Excellent point sir. Recall the devs felt the uboat war ended in 43 when it was damn near impossible to survive a patrol. Should the escort be killers at this point?

[malkuth74]

I understand the point of the early war guys... But seriously... Do you think that if your a destroyer captain in the early years and all of a sudden your merchant that your escorting blows up.. That maybe you should at least change course, slow down and start to at least try? Even if its futile?

In my 3 examples the destroyers just kept going straight and did not blink an eye.

LOL.:rock: Rock on sailor dudes. We have 2 others that are still moving.:rotfl2:

[CCIP]

Well, while overall the escort effectiveness shouldn't be too great in '39, it's worth pointing out that on a per-patrol/per-uboat basis, the first few months of the war were in fact some of the deadliest of the war for U-boats.

[AVGWarhawk]

CCIP, does the game offer rookie up to elite like SH4 does with warships?

[CCIP]

yeah. I've not looked into it too deep, but the "levels" look to be identical. And the vast majority of everything in early game is rookie.

[walsh2509]

ASDIC comprised a transducer housed in a dome beneath the ship that sent out a narrow beam of sound in a series of pulses that would reflect back from a submerged object within a maximum range of about 3,000 yards (2,700 m). The dome was open to the sea and was to ensure the water around the transducer was relatively still as fast moving water would destroy any signal. The echo produced an accurate range and bearing to the target. But differences in the temperatures at different depths could create false echoes, as could currents, eddies and schools of fish, so ASDIC needed experienced operators to be effective. ASDIC was only effective at low speeds. Above 15 knots (28 km/h) or so, the noise of the ship going through the water drowned out the echoes.

The early wartime Royal Navy procedure was to sweep the ASDIC in an arc from one side of the ship's course to the other, stopping the transducer every few degrees to send out a signal. Several ships searching together would be used in a line, a mile or a mile and a half apart. If an echo was detected, and if the operator identified it as a submarine, the ship would be pointed towards the target and would close at a moderate speed, the submarine's range and bearing would be plotted over time to determine course and speed as the ship closed to within 1,000 yards (910 m).

Once it was decided to attack the ship would close more rapidly, using the target's course and speed data to adjust the course. The intention was for the ship to pass a little way ahead of the submarine, then depth charges would be rolled from chutes in the stern at even intervals and depth-charge throwers would fire further charges some forty meters out on either side. The intention was to lay a depth charge 'pattern' like an elongated diamond, hopefully with the submarine somewhere inside the pattern. But to effectively disable a submarine a depth charge would have to explode within about six meters, in depth as well as in plane. Since early ASDIC equipment was poor on determining depth it was usual to vary the depth settings on part of the pattern.


There were disadvantages to the early versions of this system. Exercises in anti-submarine warfare had been restricted to one or two destroyers hunting a single submarine whose starting position was known in daylight and calm weather, rather than stormy conditions. German U-boats could dive far deeper than British or American submarines, to well below the deepest setting on the British depth charges (A dive depth of over 700 feet (210 m) against a maximum depth charge setting of 350 feet).

More importantly, early ASDIC sets could not look directly down, so the operator lost 'sight' of the U-Boat during the final stages of the attack, a time when the submarine would certainly be manoeuvring rapidly. The explosion of a depth-charge also disturbed the water so that ASDIC contact was very difficult to regain if the first attack had failed.

[Ducimus]

Heh, i wonder if the DD's have proper sonar, hydrophone nodes. That would do alot to break things. SH5 used Sh4 as a base. In SH4, not all ships had ALL the proper nodes assigned to them.

edit:
another item might be thermal layer effects being carried over from SH4. Check the sim.cfg and make sure they're aren't any. If those variables are high enough, you become invisible underwater for all intents and purposes.

[AVGWarhawk]

yeah. I've not looked into it too deep, but the "levels" look to be identical. And the vast majority of everything in early game is rookie.


Just what I thought. SH4 was the same I believe when fresh out of the box. Ducimus is very familiar with SH4 workings and nodes as he notes. DD will needs some help then.

[sergei]

I have been a little concerned about the enemy AI too.
My watch crew seem a little bit myopic. They only see aircraft at about 3000 meters at the moment (may be something to do with morale or experience? dunno yet). By the time I order a crash dive the planes are pretty much flying right over me.
But - this is the thing.
The aircraft never seem to actually spot me, even though the nearest pass was about 400 meters.
Tried a single mission attacking a convoy. Instead of attacking I decided to get noticed and see how easy it was to evade.
Flank speed to the convoy until I got a visual.
Then ran at flank speed at periscope depth at the nearest DD.
Circled around at flank speed till I got the attention of 3 of 'em.
Admittedly is was ****ty weather.
But still.
There was three of 'em. I evaded them pretty easily.

Couple of things spring to mind.

1. I have played SH3 and SH4 extensively so I am conversant in sub evasion techniques.
This may have helped me out here.

2. I remember in STOCK SH3 and SH4 the escorts being a bit of a pushover.
I suspect that this is more the case here.

[sergei]

Heh, i wonder if the DD's have proper sonar, hydrophone nodes. That would do alot to break things. SH5 used Sh4 as a base. In SH4, not all ships had ALL the proper nodes assigned to them.

edit:
another item might be thermal layer effects being carried over from SH4. Check the sim.cfg and make sure they're aren't any. If those variables are high enough, you become invisible underwater for all intents and purposes.

Good point, I'll have a look.
Looking at the folder and file structure of the game, it seems like a lot of stuff has been recycled from SH4, which in turn had a lot of stuff recycled from SH3. (I remember making a Soviet Office mod for SH4, and whilst I was looking for office textures, finding all the graphics for the SH3 office!)
It could well be that I easily evaded those 3 destroyers because of the thermal layer attenuation. I'll have a look.

[AVGWarhawk]

Well the DD are pushovers in vanilla because as a new comer who wants DD that sink your butt all the time? NO fun in that. Sinking ship, shooting down aircraft and going head to head with a DD is fun....if you can win most of the time. SH4 DD were quite unresponsive....until Ducimus screwed with them and a few others that made them diabolical :yep::o

[Ducimus]

Well the DD are pushovers in vanilla because as a new comer who wants DD that sink your butt all the time? NO fun in that. Sinking ship, shooting down aircraft and going head to head with a DD is fun....if you can win most of the time. SH4 DD were quite unresponsive....until Ducimus screwed with them and a few others that made them diabolical :yep::o

I have no idea what your talking about. :D Honestly though, (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1290886&postcount=13) If i do one mod for this title, I wouldn't mind doing this (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1202436&postcount=9) with K guns instead of Y guns. I could achieve a much better pattern.

However, i have to finish next update to TMO first, ive been procrastinting too long, and this game needs more patching.

[CCIP]

I have no idea what your talking about. :D Honestly though, (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1290886&postcount=13) If i do one mod for this title, I wouldn't mind doing this (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1202436&postcount=9) with K guns instead of Y guns. I could achieve a much better pattern.

However, i have to finish next update to TMO first, ive been procrastinting too long, and this game needs more patching.

I agree, don't "waste" your efforts on it quite yet. I think right now the focus for modders should just be basic stuff like quick tweaks and easily-transferable graphics files. Everything else should wait until the devs clean it up a bit.

[AVGWarhawk]

I have no idea what your talking about. :D Honestly though, (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1290886&postcount=13) If i do one mod for this title, I wouldn't mind doing this (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1202436&postcount=9) with K guns instead of Y guns. I could achieve a much better pattern.

However, i have to finish next update to TMO first, ive been procrastinting too long, and this game needs more patching.

Oh absolutely....SH4 has more Ducimus massaging needed. :yep: Will always be my favorite! CCIP is correct.

[Jimbuna]

I have no idea what your talking about. :D Honestly though, (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1290886&postcount=13) If i do one mod for this title, I wouldn't mind doing this (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1202436&postcount=9) with K guns instead of Y guns. I could achieve a much better pattern.

However, i have to finish next update to TMO first, ive been procrastinting too long, and this game needs more patching.

Looking forward to your work/efforts....now how much was that wager for again? :hmmm:

:DL

[danurve]

I would tend to agree as well.
Also, since I've never played SHIV and it can be purchased through here for about 10 clams, I might just give the fleet boats and TMO a spin.

[AVGWarhawk]

I would tend to agree as well.
Also, since I've never played SHIV and it can be purchased through here for about 10 clams, I might just give the fleet boats and TMO a spin.

:yeah:

[Ducimus]

Looking forward to your work/efforts....now how much was that wager for again? :hmmm:

:DL

Ahhh.... uhhh.... ehhh..Well, if i do any work for this game, it will be in single modlets. Probably just one thing, maybe two. TMO is still my priority at the moment.

Seriously though, i want to be a player, like everyone else. I worked on SH4 since its launch, and ive only one career game under my belt with 4 patrols. I' havent PLAYED in what feels like years. Id like to play too, may as well be SH5 even thoguh i prefer fleet boats. Sh4 is ruined for me by virtue of knowing too much under the hood. If i do the same thing here, i may as well quit sub sims all together.

[Jimbuna]

Ahhh.... uhhh.... ehhh..Well, if i do any work for this game, it will be in single modlets. Probably just one thing, maybe two. TMO is still my priority at the moment.

Seriously though, i want to be a player, like everyone else. I worked on SH4 since its launch, and ive only one career game under my belt with 4 patrols. I' havent PLAYED in what feels like years. Id like to play too, may as well be SH5 even thoguh i prefer fleet boats. Sh4 is ruined for me by virtue of knowing too much under the hood. If i do the same thing here, i may as well quit sub sims all together.

No problem, I'm simply yanking yer chain :DL

And I do promise not to repeat the challenging statement as much as you have in the past. :smug:

~SALUTE~ :sunny:

Edit: I suppose it's now safe to set the team to work on GWX5-Atlantic Wolves :O:

[Ducimus]

:haha: It will be interesting to see what mods develop. I might do one or two things, but for the most part i think ill sit this one out with a bag of peanuts or popcorn. Let someone else bust their ass for a change. If you ever need any popcorn passed your way, just ask, ill make enough for both of us.

[sergei]

Ahhh.... uhhh.... ehhh..Well, if i do any work for this game, it will be in single modlets.

Yeah sure Duci, you say that, but how will it play out? You can get a bit obsessive about this kind of game.

Seriously, as much as I enjoy your previous work, I really want you to take a back seat on this one.

Not because I do not appreciate your work on SH3 and 4, because I do.

But because I think that after what you have given the community you should be able to sit back and actually play a sub game for what it is, rather than spend your whole time trying to fix what it is not.

Besides, you an pitch in with sarcastic comments telling people where they are going wrong.
Wouldn't that be fun?

[W_clear]

check the mission editor and see what skill level they are set to(if you can in SH 5) I know in SH 4 I found out one reason enemy DD's were usually so easy, 90% were set to novice or poor skill level.They prob did it again.
You are right, of course, in the SH4,And several other documents:
AI_Sensors.dat
Sim.cfg
I still think that AI is too stupid in the SH4,So I adjust the properties of all the AI------------------------" elite",and adjust the [AI_Sensors.dat
Sim.cfg],Adjust the end of the AI is very strong.
I think that the AI must be adjustments for SH5.

[malkuth74]

Sorry guys Destroyers are not working.

Second war partol ran into another convoy.

Parked myself right in the middle periscope depth..... Fired 4 torps at first ship in convoy.. Blew to hell..... Shot my rear torp at another.. Blew its propeller off. Dived to 40M... Went and watched DD... Did not even react.

Ok went back up, Tubes reloaded Fired another 4 torps at another ship.. 1 Miss 3 hit. Bang. Dead.... Dive to 40M again... Nothing.... LOL..

So My last 2 torps loaded up. Go to periscope depth DD last in group 1500M away from me next to another merchant. I aim at another merchant in distance.. Shoot off 2 torps.. Bad shot miss....

Dive to 40M again and place myself away from the other merchant that engine is burning and is stoped but not sinking. ALL stop.

Fast foward for about 3 hours game time. Surface kill lat merchant.

Go home with 3 kills. LOL.

[sergei]

Yeah, I just did a test myself.
There is a single mission included in the game to attack an Arctic convoy.
I ran flank until I could see the convoy.
Then went to PD, and ran at flank towards the nearest DD.
Then at about 1000 m went to 50 meters depth, stayed at flank speed.
I'm not kidding, not one of the buggers even turned around.
Circled around at 50 meters, flank speed, between 1000 and 2000 meters away from DDs.
Surely one of them should have heard me?

EDIT. Didn't try torpedoing them. I'll try that next time.

[Ducimus]

If you had map contacts on, was the sensor rings in place on the DD's ?

[Webster]

Maybe the devs have the same mantra lots of people on these boards have....

Oh the Modders will fix it.:rotfl2:

i prefer to give them more credit then that and will assume they werent given proper time to devote to it.

if the boss says work on x, y, & z you do it even if you know the roof isnt on the building yet. i think they were instructed to be spending time on DRM issues instead of the game.

[sergei]

If you had map contacts on, was the sensor rings in place on the DD's ?

Yes, I play with map contacts on.

Before I submerged I could see the 'circle of awareness' on each destroyer.

[malkuth74]

If you had map contacts on, was the sensor rings in place on the DD's ?


Yes they had sensor rings. They are not very long though since its still early years.

But still they should at least attempt to search for me, they don't even do that. They just keep going like nothing happened. Its crazy.

Funnest part of SHIV and III was the part after the kill. lOL. And I am totally missing that at this point.

Its almost pointless. I My own difficulty set up. So Im not using the easy, med, hard, realistic thing. Since I like to look around, and see things. LOL.

[sergei]

Funnest part of SHIV and III was the part after the kill. lOL. And I am totally missing that at this point.

Agreed. For me the best part of a subsim is not torpedoing a ship, but getting away afterward.

Seems to be missing at the moment.

Although I will admit, it is very early days.
More tests needed.

[Ducimus]

Remember, there's 3 rings they should have.

A cone in front for active sonar.
a Pac man shaped ring for passive sonar.
A circular shaped ring for visuals.

If you don't see ALL THREE of those, something is wrong with either the ships SNS file not assigning a sensor to the correct node, OR (worse yet), the node does not exist on the ships model. SNS file can assign whatever it wants, but if the node doesnt exist on the model, its not going to do anything.


If all three rings are present (assuming SH5 works the same way as SH3/ and 4, and shows this rings), then rip the hydrophone and sonar settings from the sim.cfg out of TMO, and gloss over this. (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=111395), and adjust your sim.cfg until you illicit a response.

[THE_MASK]

Heh, i wonder if the DD's have proper sonar, hydrophone nodes. That would do alot to break things. SH5 used Sh4 as a base. In SH4, not all ships had ALL the proper nodes assigned to them.

edit:
another item might be thermal layer effects being carried over from SH4. Check the sim.cfg and make sure they're aren't any. If those variables are high enough, you become invisible underwater for all intents and purposes.
If you buy the game and mod up , i will buy it too .

[sergei]

Remember, there's 3 rings they should have.

A cone in front for active sonar.
a Pac man shaped ring for passive sonar.
A circular shaped ring for visuals.

That's interesting.
Because in my tests I only remember seeing the Pacman sonar and the circular visual.
Never saw the active cone.

Mind you, I was panicking a bit. Anyone else confirm this?

[Ducimus]

Most people probably forgot those exist. Dillweeds like me tend to mod them out and people forget. Fire up stock Sh3 or SH4 and you'll see what im talking about. Mind you, im talking on the assumption that SH5 displays the same info unmodded. If you saw the pac man shaped ring, and the outer circular ring, then SH5 probably does show this info. WHich means if you don't see the cone in front, he has no active sonar.

edit:
In which case, check the dates on the sonar in the /data/sea/whatevership/whateverhip.SNS file. There's an entry and exit date. Sonar being assinged is probably named something like "Type144A" or something like that. I forget what the acutal node is called. Probably SO.

[Capt.Warner]

I was literally about right next to a freighter,did nothing but turn it's search lights on and I launched 3 torpedoes at it.All hit,the merchant didn't even try to avoid.:down:

[Sunfighter]

I ran into a British Convoy just outside my first patrol zone. 6 freighters 2 escorts. Sunk the lead escort first and proceeded to sink 2 freighters, the rear escort behaved like the freighters, kept in formation and never went active. Sunk him with my last torpedo and then surfaced to finish all the rest of the convoy with deck fire.

One intresting thing to note is I reported this convoy to HQ and a friendly warship appeared closeby just off the coast of england, Just 1, and it never went after anything it just hovered nearby and fleed anytime the convoy got close to it.

Another note was that of a lone British destroyer that I had ran into some 30KM before i hit the convoy. That ship, I am assuming that ship, DID show up after I had finished up up sinking the last ship in the convoy. And it came straight at me through the heavy fog like a bat out of hell. Intrestingly it never went active sonar, only passive. And it would only drop 2 depth charges at a time. If i went anywhere lower then scope depth it would lose me completely and would instantly give up and start heading back to were it came from....only a couple extra surfancing games of chicken and taking a single pot shot at it would it turn back around and come after me again....

I tried to lead it to the friendly warship..but they both just ran away from each other whenever they got fairly close.


Another intrestingly think of note, I tried to torp another destroyer for practice in another patrol, I missed just barely, but strangely the ship went active sonar, and started to chase after.....the torpedo... it actually kept up with it for a good while, but once it switched back to passive sonar it gave up and turned back around....but it was funny as hell to see.

[sergei]

Which means if you don't see the cone in front, he has no active sonar.


It was a single mission, supplied by UBI!
Set in mid 42. They should have ASDIC.
BUT assume nothing.
I'll open it into the Editor and have a look.
Or better still, make a proper mission of my own.

They still should have heard me though. About 1000 meters off, at ahead flank, silent running off.
And by the way, I was transiting a line right in front of them at the time.
A bit like this
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/849/96449414.jpg

But yeah, it looks like something is really off regards the AI sensors in this game.

[Sone7]

Yesterday I was trying for an hour to see how depthcharging works. Launched the PQ-17 (mentioned by Sergei) and literally ran into the escorts, flank, peri depth, through the side of their hydrophone "pacman":DL field.

No reaction.

So what do I do? I surface and start shooting at them with the deck gun!!
What happens next? Nothing, they're too far.
Though I think there was no visual field of view on the map....
after some more shooting (I hit 'em :woot:) they came up with an idea I might be the enemy.

And here's another issue:
they were unable to hit me with even one depthcharge, not even one! I was running at flank so they can track my movement, at depths from 40 to 16m. There were 3 corvettes and a destroyer I think.

But good in the bad.. I observed the pacman and sonar fields become SMALLER, literally tiny, after a depthcharge run.
Is it IN the game now? I hope so :salute:

[BlackSpot]

I had a weird encounter last night. Weather was stormy. I had a DD following me just within visual range. I changed course and he followed. I decided enough was enough went to PD and turned towards him. I notice he was circling so I approached. He continued to circle but I couldn't close in on him. Every time I got within 2100m he moved away and circled again. I tried again to close but again he'd move away and then circle. And so it went on until I gave up.

In another encounter some planes flew overhead and I ignored them. A little while later I was caught on the surface by a DD who shot my boat to pieces and sunk me. Bummer. :hmmm: