Enormous potential- SH5 allows scripting!

[Drifter]

There. Got your attention? :DL

I just thought I would like to bring everyone's attention the fact that Urfisch has posted something very important about SH5 modding tools here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=162702

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/2959/interfacescripteditor.png

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8939/aidebugger.png


From what I am seeing so far, it appears that almost anything in-game can be scripted or changed through the tools. If this is true, the potential is beyond incredible. As a scripter and modder of the Oblivion rpg game, I can tell everyone here that custom scripts allow almost unlimited possibilities. I am not kidding. You would not believe what I and other modders have accomplished for that game.

Almost anything can be scripted to override or bypass a game's .exe functions depending on which script commands are included. I haven't yet had the opportunity to see SH5's in-game scripts or script commands, but the potential is astounding. This means that practically anything and everything in the game might be moddable in SH5. So people, please stop complaining. Be thankful that SH5 allows scripting! :woot:

[IanC]

I don't know anything about modding, but the way you make it sound, that does seem very interesting.

[Drifter]

I don't know anything about modding, but the way you make it sound, that does seem very interesting.

I do have to admit, I got goosebumps when I saw Urfisch's thread. The power of scripting makes almost anything possible, depending on which script commands are included in the game. The possibilities could make modding SH3 look like a joke in comparison. I am talking about the possibility to be able to script almost any game play feature. The meat of the game is game play in my opinion.

One scripting and modding possibility might include:

-ability to abandon the U-boat into life rafts, floating around for days, waiting to be either rescued or die from thirst.

I say might because I haven't had the chance yet to see the tools. I don't yet know how limited the scripting commands are in SH5.

[Gunnodayak]

You know, the word "whining" from the tilte of your thred hurts my feelings, I am very sensitive. I also try to be "politically correct". It would be very nice if you should try that, as well. It's not the first time that the ones who are not satisfied by the latest UBI product are called "whiners".

[ReallyDedPoet]

This should be interesting, the extra modding tools. It's way to early to get to bent out of shape regarding V, give it time and let's see what happens :yep:

[Drifter]

You know, the word "whining" from the tilte of your thred hurts my feelings, I am very sensitive. I also try to be "politically correct". It would be very nice if you should try that, as well. It's not the first time that the ones who are not satisfied by the latest UBI product are called "whiners".

I meant 'complaining' when there is so much potential through scripting. :sunny:

[Heretic]

As someone who plays heavily modded immersion-based Oblivion, I'm estatic to hear something that that could be possible with SH5. :yeah:

[Drifter]

As someone who plays heavily modded immersion-based Oblivion, I'm estatic to hear something that that could be possible with SH5. :yeah:

No Psychic Guards and Attack and Hide mods were mine, though no scripting was involved in those two. Among other mods, I also made the Locked Doors and Knocking mod, which did include my own custom scripts. :DL

It seems that most here don't quite yet understand the huge potential through scripting. The most powerful tool there is for modding a game. Woohoo!

[Heretic]

No Psychic Guards and Attack and Hide mods were mine, though no scripting was involved in those two. Among other mods, I also made the Locked Doors and Knocking mod, which did include my own custom scripts. :DL

It seems that most here don't quite yet understand the huge potential through scripting. The most powerful tool there is for modding a game. Woohoo!


Yeap! Welcome aboard! There's a lot of new potential here. I was hoping it'd attract talent from other genres.

For those who are unfamiliar with Oblivion mods, there's a group of modders that specialize in realism and immersion mods. Wonderful stuff. Totally remade the game. If you have a good foundation, amazing things are possible.

[Bilge_Rat]

Even I as a non-modder realize what a powerful tool scripts can be. This is exciting news. In theory modders could take SH5 much farther than SH3.

Gunnodayak is correct, "whining" and "fanboyism" are no longer acceptable terms on this forum, the correct p.c. terms are now "enthusiasm-challenged" and "criticism-challenged"...:salute:

[capthelm]

script particle effects inside the uboat mmm

[gutted]

I've poked about in the menu editor, the goblin editor & the map editor.. but i cannot figure out where this script editor is.

[Safe-Keeper]

No Psychic Guards and Attack and Hide mods were mine, though no scripting was involved in those two. Among other mods, I also made the Locked Doors and Knocking mod, which did include my own custom scripts. :DLI was not aware of these mods. Methinks I must have another look at the Oblivion modding scene, because while I love Oblivion, I was pretty displeased that it wasn't more immersing (I missed things like having to sleep, having to eat, your clothes getting wet, etc.).

Either way, this is awesome news:yeah:!

[IanC]

I have a vision of the future. Finding SHV in the bargain bin, OSP is removed, super mods available... :sunny:

[Drifter]

I've poked about in the menu editor, the goblin editor & the map editor.. but i cannot figure out where this script editor is.

I wish I could help you, but I don't even have the game yet. Sorry. :cry:

[scrapser]

So does this mean it would be possible to completely change SHV to be akin to SH3 with all boats available, accurately modeled, and include the full period of the war? In short, an upgraded version of SH3? Perhaps even include the PTO? That would be incredible but I'm probably dreaming right now.

[Drifter]

I was not aware of these mods. Methinks I must have another look at the Oblivion modding scene, because while I love Oblivion, I was pretty displeased that it wasn't more immersing (I missed things like having to sleep, having to eat, your clothes getting wet, etc.).

Either way, this is awesome news:yeah:!

Please try Oblivion again. You have no idea what modders have done to that game compared to vanilla. Amazing stuff indeed.

Look here:

http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/fms/TopRated.php?content=oblivionmods&sort=Downloads&dir=DESC&w=&p=1

http://www.tesnexus.com/

My No Psychic Guards mod has almost 57,000 downloads now! One of the most popular mods for Oblivion.

Anyways, I don't want to hijack my own thread. I wish I could get a look at some of the SH5 script commands. :hmmm:

[gutted]

I had several gigs worth of Oblivion Mods on my last playthrough... one of the best games ever once modded.

[Drifter]

So does this mean it would be possible to completely change SHV to be akin to SH3 with all boats available, accurately modeled, and include the full period of the war? In short, an upgraded version of SH3? Perhaps even include the PTO? That would be incredible but I'm probably dreaming right now.

I cannot really say for sure as I do not yet know how limited the scripting is for SH5. If the UBI devs were really liberal in the script commands made available in the tool set, then I can see almost unlimited potential. Yes, your dream SH5 might actually happen someday.

But I'm not trying to give anyone false hopes here. We will just have to wait and see.

[Heretic]

I was not aware of these mods. Methinks I must have another look at the Oblivion modding scene, because while I love Oblivion, I was pretty displeased that it wasn't more immersing (I missed things like having to sleep, having to eat, your clothes getting wet, etc.).

Either way, this is awesome news:yeah:!

Look for Delte's Thread of Immersion mods. Great stuff from like-minded folks.

[Safe-Keeper]

Please try Oblivion again. You have no idea what modders have done to that game compared to vanilla. Amazing stuff indeedI thought I had it made when I found the UI fix (made text smaller and whatnot) and the community patch that fixed like a million bugs.

I'll go have another look to be sure:):

Look for Delte's Thread of Immersion mods. Great stuff from like-minded folks. Found it!
http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1046815&st=0

[/off-topic :P ]

[Gedis]

integrated scripting is good, but when there gonna be a lot of mods and lots of different aproaches, causing lots of scripts, there gonna be a performance loss too.
same happened to ofp/arma...
i vote yes to scripting, but only where it is really needed.

P.S. my first post in subsim after years of anonimous reading/watching :)

[rik007]

That is very good news indeed. I see already hooks for events like DC, Fire. Need to exercise my python knowledge. :)

[Drifter]

Good. I am happy to see modders here are awakening to the potentially unlimited power of scripting SH5. Go get 'em guys. :rock:

[Drifter]

integrated scripting is good, but when there gonna be a lot of mods and lots of different aproaches, causing lots of scripts, there gonna be a performance loss too.
same happened to ofp/arma...
i vote yes to scripting, but only where it is really needed.

P.S. my first post in subsim after years of anonimous reading/watching :)

I agree. Many Oblivion mods are incompatible with each other due to conflicting scripts. And yes, sloppy scripts can really kill game performance.

But all in all, I think there should be a celebration that they even included scripting ability in SH5. :sunny:

[karamazovnew]

My No Psychic Guards mod has almost 57,000 downloads now! One of the most popular mods for Oblivion.


OMG I think I downloaded that mod 10 times or more :haha:. Oblivion did allow one to practically turn it into another game altogether. I used about 100 mods in it and it felt more like Stalker than Oblivion.

Now scripts are fun and all, but the main question is: will we be able to CREATE variables and save/load their status in the normal Save files? If so... my god this will be fun :haha:

[Onkel Neal]

Should I amend the title to "complaining" ?

[Drifter]

OMG I think I downloaded that mod 10 times or more :haha:. Oblivion did allow one to practically turn it into another game altogether. I used about 100 mods in it and it felt more like Stalker than Oblivion.

Now scripts are fun and all, but the main question is: will we be able to CREATE variables and save/load their status in the normal Save files? If so... my god this will be fun :haha:

Hey, I hope you liked that mod. As you know, it allows killing people without guards always popping up out of nowhere. Assassin characters are so much more fun. Hehe.

Anyways, as far as saving modded games, I'm really not sure how that works. :hmmm:

[karamazovnew]

Should I amend the title to "complaining" ?

Whining is better under the circumstances. Most of us haven't yet bought the game. Thus we can only whine :wah:

Hey, I hope you liked that mod. As you know, it allows killing people without guards always popping up out of nowhere. Assassin characters are so much more fun. Hehe.

Anyways, as far as saving modded games, I'm really not sure how that works. :hmmm:

I was more of a "scared cat hiding in the dark" than "assassin" but it sure was great to kill a merchant and steal his mithril armor without Monty Python guards hearing me from 10 km away. Your mod one of the essential fixes to the game. So let me also wish you a great welcome to this community and hope to see mods for SH5 from you :D

As for variables and save games, if it works as Oblivion did, it should be ok. For example, the hunger mod saved the status of a user-created variable.
There's one more thing I actually DO worry about. They said that you can't write stuff in the commander's log. That's so easy to do that I need to wonder why they chose not to implement such a simple thing. It would be a great asset if we could create Text-Boxes and buttons that take those variables and start scripts based on them. If we could mod in stuff like "increase depth by X meters", we could turn this baby into pretty much the perfect sim :D

[Drifter]

Should I amend the title to "complaining" ?

How about just:

Enormous potential- SH5 allows scripting!

That would be nicer. Thank you. :salute:

[Denson]

Holy Cow !
OK i'll stop whining.

Script editor look's good, maybe i should try to recruit some fellow scripters from Egosoft X3TC community.

[Ducimus]

As a scripter and modder of the Oblivion rpg game, I can tell everyone here that custom scripts allow almost unlimited possibilities. I am not kidding. You would not believe what I and other modders have accomplished for that game.

Almost anything can be scripted to override or bypass a game's .exe functions depending on which script commands are included. I haven't yet had the opportunity to see SH5's in-game scripts or script commands, but the potential is astounding. This means that practically anything and everything in the game might be moddable in SH5. So people, please stop complaining. Be thankful that SH5 allows scripting! :woot:

Sounds like you got some work to do! Have fun! :yeah:

[OakGroove]

I say might because I haven't had the chance yet to see the tools. I don't yet know how limited the scripting commands are in SH5.

. :hmmm:

[Drifter]

I'm a bit confused, and excited now. If I am reading this right, it seems that there are a bunch of semi-scripted missions that branch out during a campaign game. If this is the case, hallelujah! Omg. This would allow very fine control and modding over campaign game play. By this, I mean that the ability to add scripts into campaign play might include the possibility of adding random factors into the campaign, and even adding a bunch of new game play features. I can now see why UBI went this route with semi-scripted campaign missions. Brilliant. Maybe they did it to possibly allow us modders to script in anything we wanted. If this is true, the potential is incredible. :woot:

[Kretschmer the IV]

yessss... imagine the possibilities...

after sinking a merchant... you see the survivors crying for help.. then you decide, send a SOS for those poor souls, and give them something to eat..

Grants extra poitns for renown but increase risk of detection ;)

[karamazovnew]

I'm a bit confused and excited now. If I am reading this right, it seems that there are a bunch of single scripted missions that branch out during a campaign game. If this is the case, hallelujah! Omg. This would allow very fine control and modding over campaign game play. By this, I mean that these scripted missions during campaign play might have the possibility of adding random factors into the campaign, and even adding a bunch of new game play features. I can now see why UBI went this route with scripted campaign missions. Brilliant. They did it to allow us modders to script in anything we wanted. If this is true, the potential is incredible. :woot:

I should point out that one should never get TOO excited about modding SH. SH3 and SH4 could've been VERY different if it weren't for a few hard-coded road blocks.

[Drifter]

yessss... imagine the possibilities...

after sinking a merchant... you see the survivors crying for help.. then you decide, send a SOS for those poor souls, and give them something to eat..

Grants extra poitns for renown but increase risk of detection ;)

And the power of scripting could possibly do just what you said, depending on what scripting commands are available in the editor.

[Drifter]

I should point out that one should never get TOO excited about modding SH. SH3 and SH4 could've been VERY different if it weren't for a few hard-coded road blocks.

I agree. I shouldn't get too excited.. yet. That was always a killer. Those darn hard-coded problems.

I am hoping for the possibility to change most game play features, or even create new ones, through scripting. But we don't really know yet. If we could just get someone to explore the script commands, we could find out soon enough.

[Heretic]

I wonder what kind of scripting can be done with crew members. It would be cool to script different behaviors and actions for battle stations or watch changes. Seeing the next watch come into the control room in their gear and troop up the ladder would be quite the thing.

[Drifter]

I am only making my best deductions from Urfisch's few screen shots, but it appears that many things which were hard-coded in SH3-Sh4 are now open to scripting. I think it is safe to say that SH5 will be much, much more moddable. :yep:

[Drifter]

The screen shot below appears to allow the custom scripting of ship AI. Good news if true! :rock:

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/5226/aiscript.png

[joejccva71]

Drifter..then we need you to get the game ASAP and start working on your scripting magic because SH5 needs alot of help. I got the game last night and while I see it has potential, the immersion factor just isn't there at all anymore. The explosions are just flat out horrible and look too "arcadeish". On an enemy ship after I slammed 2 torps into it's side, as it's sinking I still see crewmen walking on the deck while it's underwater. Ugh. :damn:

Things like that.

[Safe-Keeper]

Also remember that Ubi will release patches. This game is not a done deal in any way.

[CCIP]

Awesome. I've not got into the news, but this is an extremely powerful tool. It could be our long-wanted solution to things like the ever-present AI gripes.

[Nisgeis]

It seems that most here don't quite yet understand the huge potential through scripting. The most powerful tool there is for modding a game. Woohoo!

Most of us don't have the game yet! We know the power of scripting, but it depends on what can be scripted and what can't.

I should point out that one should never get TOO excited about modding SH. SH3 and SH4 could've been VERY different if it weren't for a few hard-coded road blocks.

Exactly.

The screen shot below appears to allow the custom scripting of ship AI. Good news if true! :rock:


We knew before release that the UI and AI would be scripted and able to be changed, it's the other things we don't know about - can you add in new equipment for example? How deep does the scripting go?

[jazman]

I agree with the OP, this could be very big, although qualified by what Nisgeis just said. I have a feeling that a lot of coding work went into this scriptability, more work than we appreciate at the moment as we look over the eye candy and basic changes to gameplay. At least, I'm hoping.

[Drifter]

Most of us don't have the game yet! We know the power of scripting, but it depends on what can be scripted and what can't.

Yes, I know most of us don't have the game yet- including me. I think many here don't know the power of scripting. That is why I was trying to alert non-modders of it's significance.


We knew before release that the UI and AI would be scripted and able to be changed, it's the other things we don't know about - can you add in new equipment for example? How deep does the scripting go?

You keep saying 'we'. Who is 'we'? Me and some others here just now realized the ability to change or add new scripts in SH5. I think it's good to be cautious, but geez. Please show at least a little enthusiasm. ;)

Regardless of how much can be scripted, the modability of SH5 is still a huge improvement over SH3.

[Nisgeis]

You keep saying 'we'. Who is 'we'? Me and some others here just now realized the ability to change or add new scripts in SH5.

Well, I guess people who have been following the progress of SH5, the modders especially. The scripting has been mentioned lots of times in various threads, as it came from a dev Q&A quite a while ago. There's even a thread in the mods section about Python. The devs said that certain things can't be scripted and certain controls can't be accessed from a script. What those things are, I don't know. Yet.

I think it's good to be cautious, but geez. Please show at least a little enthusiasm. ;)

No! Must... control... enthusiasm... until have game... in... hands...

[Drifter]

Well, I guess people who have been following the progress of SH5, the modders especially. The scripting has been mentioned lots of times in various threads, as it came from a dev Q&A quite a while ago. There's even a thread in the mods section about Python. The devs said that certain things can't be scripted and certain controls can't be accessed from a script. What those things are, I don't know. Yet.

You know, after I posted that, I discovered your Python post. :oops: Looks like I was in the dark about this whole SH5 scripting thing. Hadn't followed it at all. And that's interesting you mention that the devs said that certain things can't be scripted and certain controls can't be accessed from a script. I didn't know that. Thank you for the info. :salute:

No! Must... control... enthusiasm... until have game... in... hands...

I know how you feel. Sometimes I think I get a bit too excited thinking about the scripting possibilities in SH5. I must try to remain calm until I get my hands on the editor. :DL

[janh]

Scripting is potentially quite useful, BUT only given that the developers implemented SUFFICIENT scripting commands and language. If not, then it won't get you far.

Also note that scripts are slow in terms of CPU cost, i.e. anything that is not implemented in the game engine but is jimmy-rigged by scripts will likely slow down the game when run in numbers. Was the case with Operation Flashpoint, and remains with the Armas. Since Arma 2 there are at least scripting commands for doing almost all sorts of things except side-switching, or reverse config-value manipulations. It is awesome, but it takes a lot of time to implement complex things correctly, and it does slow the FPS notably if you run dozens of scripts on hunderds of units (ACE, SLX etc).

Quite obviously I would conclude that SHV is a bit more open to modding than SHIII. But I don't have the game, nor have I seen how the dynamic campaign is implemented, nor the scripting language. Assuming both of the latter are completely open source and powerful, and that modders fix things like the semi-manual TDC, the gamey-windows type interface etc., then I would say SHV shows huge potential. However, that alone is not sufficient reason to buy as long as the DRM remains. And I can wait as modders will take a few month to a year to get the first REALISM supermod ready...

[Nisgeis]

Oh yes and one of the devs said that we can't add new variables, which of course severely limits the scope of what we can do.

[ozzietj]

perhaps this will allow someone to create a tool, conversation maker or something to that effect that achieves a small but critical element of submarine command, relaying orders and having them followed

e.g. Captain to XO - I want the boat surfaced every (insert variable) hours/distance -
*tick boxes for
battle stations manned
AA gun manned
Deck Gun manned
etc
When batteries recharged to X amount, set your depth to X on course.

that sorta thing. instead of manually having to surface the boat, click the same things over and over for a "routine" transit of the patrol, my god.... we have officers. Im sure we can give them something more complex than "COB Rig ship for dive" (sorry, im not good on submarine terms.. excuse me if its wrong).

im sure some of you feel even the lack of control you have now (controlling each engine etc) and dont want to relinquish it.... however i'd find this easier for managing transits. Whilst this is going on you could be walking the sub, talking to your crew... if something happens, it prompts you on action to take like the old ones... "dive/engage/maintain orders"

the way i see it, once you have worked out the efficient speed/distance management of your sub over long distances, you could call up a preset e.g. Cruise mode with the parameters you set.
or a starlight surface running. E.g. once you have crossed a horizontal/vertical line (latitudes/longitudes?) on the map.... (closer to enemy territory).... the ship will stay submerged during daylight, running slower, only surfacing at night to return batteries to strength/recycle air/give the crew some sanity by way of sea spray on the lookout post away from all the farts downstairs :)

i dont know if any of this makes sense.
but i sure like the voice commands. Make your depth 180 feet, heading 295, all ahead one third, rig for slient running, lower periscope

as fast as i could rattle them off the crew carried it out. That was by far the best thing i ever downloaded to make me feel in charge of my sub. Now im looking to make my XO/team take on some more orders.
Scripting would be the way to go.
I dont know how to write stuff..... im just a concept man.
I guess it would all start out with a series of drop down boxes, type in a number, tick in the box for something on/off etc.... i dont know

i just had the idea when i saw screen shot.... and the speech from the XO was broken up into parts, with the information (variables like speed, type etc) underlined.

I'll stop waffling now.
and thanks for everyones useful input for the game so far.
I've only got a 3G mobile broadband with 500MB per month... hopefully thats enough to play SH5 with!

[Drifter]

Assuming both of the latter are completely open source and powerful, and that modders fix things like the semi-manual TDC, the gamey-windows type interface etc., then I would say SHV shows huge potential.

We can only hope.

[CCIP]

I've started looking into scripts and indeed at least in theory there is a lot that can be done with the AI using this language. Take a look at this for example:


This is a chunk of the script for AI escort tactics. It allows the AI's response to a submarine contact to be coordinated, currently with 3 special tactics that ships could use. One of them is Operation Plaster.

strategy OperationPlaster(Ship)
{
precond
{
Ship:GetCurrentTacticID() == OPERATION_PLASTER and Ship:ContactDetected()
}
strategies
{
Role_OP_Plaster,
Role_OP_Directing
}
}

strategy Role_OP_Plaster(Ship)
{
precond
{
Ship:GetRole() == ROLE_PLASTER
}
action
{
# this step is necesary in order to give the ships time to allign themselsves before starting the first plaster pass
# during the plaster passes (between StartFiringDCs and StopFiringDCs the ship cannot turn right/left
# and because of this it might miss its destination and never stop going forward -- actually until the ship looses contact)
Ship:SetGotoDestRelToContact(-800);
Ship:GotoAction(0, true, 100);
Ship:WaitForFormation();

# ready the ship for the first plaster pass
Ship:SetGotoDestRelToContact(-150);
Ship:GotoAction(0, true, 100);
Ship:WaitForFormation();

# throw first round of DCs while passing over the contact
Ship:SetGotoDestRelToContactKeepFormationOrientati on(200);
Ship:StartFiringDCs();
Ship:GotoAction(0, false, 100);
Ship:StopFiringDCs();
Ship:WaitForFormation();

# go further away in order to have room to turn
Ship:SetGotoDestRelToContact(-1000);
Ship:GotoAction(0, true, 100);
Ship:WaitForFormation();

#Ship:TurnToHeading(Ship:GetCurrentFormationHeadin g() - 180, 1.0);

# come back and turn towards contact in the process
Ship:SetGotoDestRelToContact(-500);
Ship:GotoAction(0, true, 100);
Ship:WaitForFormation();

# ready the ships for the second plaster pass (all ships should have the same orientation at this point)
Ship:SetGotoDestRelToContact(-150);
Ship:GotoAction(0, false, 100);
Ship:WaitForFormation();

# throw second round of DCs on the way back
Ship:SetGotoDestRelToContactKeepFormationOrientati on(200);
Ship:StartFiringDCs();
Ship:GotoAction(0, false, 100);
Ship:StopFiringDCs();
Ship:WaitForFormation();

Ship:SetGotoDestRelToContact(-1000);
Ship:GotoAction(0, true, 100);
Ship:WaitForFormation();

#Ship:TurnToHeading(Ship:GetCurrentFormationHeadin g() - 180, 1.0);

Ship:SetGotoDestRelToContact(-500);
Ship:GotoAction(0, true, 100);
Ship:WaitForFormation();


Ship:EndCurrentTactic();
}
}

strategy Role_OP_Directing(Ship)
{
precond
{
Ship:GetRole() == ROLE_DIRECTING
}
action
{
Ship:SetGotoDestRelToContact(-1500);
Ship:GotoAction(0, true, 100);
Ship:WaitAction(15.0);
}
}


Looking through it carefully, you can see a whole number of features programmed in - the pre-conditions for when such an attack would be executed, the assignment of two different roles to escorts, and a whole bunch of parameters for the execution determining how the ship will move, where it will drop its charges, and how it will behave afterwards. You can't count on them just dropping this stuff on your last known position anymore!

How actually effective this is... I'm not sure. But in theory this is now all part of the game and can be edited and added onto very easily by modders, needing nothing more than the notepad and some understanding of the game's commands.

[ichso]

I wonder whether SH5 will turn out to be a huge U-boat-development-kit in the end. Let the gamers create the game that they like. That would be great on the one hand but I cannot get really warm with that kind of approach compared to just delivering a convincing simulation right out of the box.
It would be like a lot of people paying good money to do half the work on the game they *really* wanted to play in the first place.