View Full Version : subs on rails , again!
oscar19681
02-28-10, 04:55 PM
Check the 3rd video on the website.
http://www.marinesims.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=11936&sid=36d7b98e40faddbbd3a79a4f04a5431b
Why did they keep the horrific subs on rails again! I,m pretty positive about sh-5 but this is something that has GOT to go! I mean why is it so hard to get this right. The community did for sh-4 ! Well guess yet another task for the modders!
Platapus
02-28-10, 04:58 PM
What do you mean by "subs on rails"? I am not familiar with that term
It is the same game engine as in previous two titles. So nothing to be surprised about.
Actually I find the sub movement in rough seas the most realistic so far, be it on rails or not.
They are rushing the games. They should take their time, get a new engine out or give the existing one a huge overhaul. Tho, I imagine the suits at Ubi have their hands on this and keeping the pressure on the devs to keep pumping out the games if they want publish via them. :hmmm:
What do you mean by "subs on rails"? I am not familiar with that term
The boat goes through the waves, instead of riding them.
oscar19681
02-28-10, 05:03 PM
It is the same game engine as in previous two titles. So nothing to be surprised about.
Actually I find the sub movement in rough seas the most realistic so far, be it on rails or not.
Actually sh-3 did not have subs on rails. It was first introduced with sh-4 . Think of it a boat alsway rides the waves depended on the size and weight. A u-boat is relativly light for a boat and isnt that big either. There for it should ride the waves insted ot going throught them. And it the video it doing exacly not that. I mean seriouslt dont tell me you havent seen das boot?
Actually sh-3 did not have subs on rails. It was first introduced with sh-4 . Think of it a boat alsway rides the waves depended on the size and weight. A u-boat is relativly light for a boat and isnt that big either. There for it should ride the waves insted ot going throught them. And it the video it doing exacly not that. I mean seriouslt dont tell me you havent seen das boot?
Don't use the Das Boot reference, please. :D The model they used there was 6m long - scene shot in a real ocean. What I saw looked more like Das Boot. ;)
oscar19681
02-28-10, 05:27 PM
Don't use the Das Boot reference, please. :D The model they used there was 6m long - scene shot in a real ocean. What I saw looked more like Das Boot. ;)
I have to do disagree. Even thought the model from das boot was only 6 meters long it still ride the waves. The footage in sh-5 keeps the boat almost horizontal when it takes a wave. You can also find some real footage on youtube to see how a u-boat reacts on heavier seas .
I have to do disagree. Even thought the model from das boot was only 6 meters long it still ride the waves. The footage in sh-5 keeps the boat almost vertical when it takes a wave. You can also find some real footage on youtube to see how a u-boat reacts on heavier seas .
I miss understood you. You should have clarified that the horizontal-axial tilting isn't representing the proper sub motion in big waves. :)
On that I have to agree. The 'rails issue' from SH4 and now obviously SH5 is probably related to the 3D waves (wakes) IMO. But I might be wrong...
Sailor Steve
02-28-10, 05:31 PM
I have to do disagree. Even thought the model from das boot was only 6 meters long it still ride the waves.
I think that was his point. That model rode so well because it was so small.
The footage in sh-5 keeps the boat almost vertical when it takes a wave. You can also find some real footage on youtube to see how a u-boat reacts on heavier seas .
I think you mean horizontal. Vertical would be standing on end. On the other hand I haven't seen a video with the boat completely out of the water, a la SH4. The video boat seems to be surging quite a bit (straight up and down), but not enough pitch.
Hopefully that's another thing they made easily adjustable.
Steeltrap
02-28-10, 05:34 PM
I miss understood you. You should have clarified that the horizontal-axial tilting isn't representing the proper sub motion in big waves. :)
On that I have to agree. The 'rails issue' from SH4 and now obviously SH5 is probably related to the 3D waves (wakes) IMO. But I might be wrong...
The most obvious example is the way the sub remains horizontal while breasting a wave then covering the trough. It ends up with large parts of the hull all bbut entirely out of the water as though maintaining a horizontal plane while the water rises and falls around it, instead of being part of/subject to the wave motion.
Looked terrible in SH4.....
THE_MASK
02-28-10, 05:38 PM
The sub should ride the waves like in my sigature movie .
I noticed that the large waves are slightly too big and the crew goes under in one of the videos i seen . Easily fixed by adjusting wave height i reckon . I also noticed that the wave peak is non existant . The sub on rails is the biggest immersion killer along with the yellow outline on the clickable objects .
oscar19681
02-28-10, 05:43 PM
The most obvious example is the way the sub remains horizontal while breasting a wave then covering the trough. It ends up with large parts of the hull all bbut entirely out of the water as though maintaining a horizontal plane while the water rises and falls around it, instead of being part of/subject to the wave motion.
Looked terrible in SH4.....
So it does in sh-5. I was pretty confident the devs did not overlooked this problem. But it seems i am wrong on this one.
Decoman
02-28-10, 05:44 PM
A little bit of particle splash as the ocean wave reach the upper part of the conning tower would be nice :yep:
THE_MASK
02-28-10, 05:54 PM
W_CLEAR to the rescue .........up up and away .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kTWwJ9NQbY this explains it perfectly .
V.C. Sniper
02-28-10, 06:08 PM
OMFG NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!
subs on rails is the most immerisve killing crap in the sh series!!!
shows that you can't trust the devs with their words anymore when the ubi suits are a few feet behind them ("we are just tuning the buoyancy mechanics now" my ass).
this is the keel shot for me, no matter how awesome (and immersive) the fp view and completely modeled sub is, subs on rails COMPLETELY negates that (wtf this is not rreal water, this is just fake water with crappy unrealistic properties) , i'm definately not buying this crap.
oscar19681
02-28-10, 06:11 PM
OMFG NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!
subs on rails is the most immerisve killing crap in the sh series!!!
shows that you can't trust the devs with their words anymore when the ubi suits are a few feet behind them ("we are just tuning the buoyancy mechanics now" my ass).
this is the keel shot for me, no matter how awesome (and immersive) the fp view and completely modeled sub is, subs on rails COMPLETELY negates that (wtf this is not rreal water, this is just fake water with crappy unrealistic properties) , i'm definately not buying this crap.
I,m dissapointed about this to . But i have faith in the community.
cherbert
02-28-10, 06:21 PM
Yeah!
We have had to put up with this crap since Silent Service.
http://www.abandonware-paradise.fr/Gifs/Abandonware/Silent_service_01.png
Paajtor
02-28-10, 06:23 PM
The sub should ride the waves like in my sigature movie .
Correct.
Webster
02-28-10, 07:12 PM
i figured it would have issues when i saw the sinking ships stand up like buildings before sinking, forget gravity and the laws of physics and the ships look like they are going down a drain pipe. because it is pushed down by its own weight you shouldnt see more then 1/4 of a ship sticking out the water before it breaks from its own weight.
hopefully something in those talked about modding tools we will have but i see no mention of them yet and i expect the game to be troubled so the mod tools are my favorite subject im waiting to hear about
malkuth74
02-28-10, 07:15 PM
This is kind of disappointing.
derblaueClaus
02-28-10, 07:42 PM
It is, absolutly.Seemed to be the right decision not to buy the game. I have no problem with their DRM but ignoring such major errors ( just my view of course) that are in since the predessor game is something that is inexcusable and hasn't to be tolerated.
And speaking of old "mistakes" :Is there anything to say about the Destroyer-AI at the moment ? Found it much to easy to get away in the previous versions. Is there any difference at last ?
Steeltrap
02-28-10, 07:52 PM
Found it much to easy to get away in the previous versions. Is there any difference at last ?
If anything, I found previous 'vanilla' versions to have the opposite problem.
The fact that depth charges always went off at/near your true depth, even though the asdic/sonar of earlier times had no way of knowing that, always used to bug me. Indeed, for part of the war the depth charges were unable to 'reach' the depth subs could, as nations had underestimated the operational depths achievable by subs. This was true of Brit DCs vs. German suns, and Japanese DCs vs. USA subs.
The Japanese ASW, in particular, was poor. I found this not to be true in the games (SHI and SH4). In SH2 the escorts were absurdly accurate and capable.
Another problem for me was the apparent lack of performance degradation that should have occurred with poor weather and/or the speed of the escorts.
The big mods for SH3 went a long way to making escort performance more reasonable, although I think they overestimated the value of passive detection (hydrophones) on escorts.
Anyway, I think the vanilla games overestimated the effectiveness of ASW, especially early in the war. Guess that's just my opinion, however.
Just what I feared. With all the complaints on this forum, over the last 2 years, and they still keep the subs on rails? A game about ships should first model the correct behavior of ships in their natural environment - water - and only then start improving the other, non-critical aspects, like walking through the sub and chatting with the cook.:down:
Frederf
03-01-10, 12:38 AM
Gah, lens flare!!! Why does SH5 has lens flare for the human eye!?!
theluckyone17
03-01-10, 01:26 AM
Gah, lens flare!!! Why does SH5 has lens flare for the human eye!?!Because someone somewhere thought it adds quality to the screen... *helpless shrug*. A lot of sims/games do it, probably because they can.
I've never seen a sub cut through or ride above a wave before, so I don't know any better. Heck, I barely leave the sub (SH4 has my external cam turned off). I'd much rather have the dev's concentrate on something else, like having the AI ping only when they're suspicious and looking for me, rather than if I just happen to be in the right spot at the right angle.
Schunken
03-01-10, 02:24 AM
....maybe the mods can fix it with change the mass centre of the sub with weight distrubution.
I can only explain what I mean with my Ship models:
When I put 6 battery cells in the middle of my flowerclass model it will ride the waves. (What look not so nice on a surcace vessel on the pond)
but when I put 3 cells in the bow and 3 cells aft it will plow trough the waves.
So maybe in the sub model of sh5 the weight center is also in the middle. Maybe in a ini.file we can move weight from the middle to the bow and the aft....than it should ride the waves...:hmmm:
Andreas
karamazovnew
03-01-10, 03:32 AM
Because someone somewhere thought it adds quality to the screen... *helpless shrug*. A lot of sims/games do it, probably because they can.
I've never seen a sub cut through or ride above a wave before, so I don't know any better. Heck, I barely leave the sub (SH4 has my external cam turned off). I'd much rather have the dev's concentrate on something else, like having the AI ping only when they're suspicious and looking for me, rather than if I just happen to be in the right spot at the right angle.
Well, if you're a DD, escort or not, you're not out there to get a sun tan. You will keep the sonar active all the time, even when going fast and straight.
The waves in this starting out vid are not enough to move a small sailboat let alone a rather massive U-boat. Despite how they look, U-boats were HEAVY. For god's sake the boat isn't even out of port in these vids. I don't want my boat listing wildly in such calm waters, or pitching all the much either. These were heavy machines and had momentum that had to be over come by the waves. The Puny waves here HAD BETTER NOT MOVE MY BOAT all that much. Now when I get out to open and heavy seas I expect to see the boat pitching and rolling line they did in SH3, or in the ancient movies of the actual things.
The waves in this starting out vid are not enough to move a small sailboat let alone a rather massive U-boat. Despite how they look, U-boats were HEAVY. For god's sake the boat isn't even out of port in these vids. I don't want my boat listing wildly in such calm waters, or pitching all the much either. These were heavy machines and had momentum that had to be over come by the waves. The Puny waves here HAD BETTER NOT MOVE MY BOAT all that much. Now when I get out to open and heavy seas I expect to see the boat pitching and rolling line they did in SH3, or in the ancient movies of the actual things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOtwcYC2bIM&feature=player_embedded#
Paajtor
03-01-10, 05:10 AM
The waves in this starting out vid are not enough to move a small sailboat let alone a rather massive U-boat.
One isolated wave might indeed look like having not enough energy to move an entire sub.
But a seavessel is influenced by many more waves at the same time...waves that have already passed it, but also waves that are actually "pushing" the isolated one ahead, thus lifting that one even higher.
And let's not forget the valleys inbetween waves, where gravity pulls (part of the) the vessel down, while an other part is being lifted.
The longer a vessel is, the more this pitching will occur.
A short vessel is more likely to be moved up & down like being on rails.
Waves come in groups, which total number of waves depend on depth and size of the water-surface, as well as on the moon-phase.
You can have 5-6 regular looking waves over a period of let's say 1min, before you'll start to notice a difference...either a group of larger, or a group of lower waves.
Every now and then, let's say every 4mins, the sea will suddenly look either calmer, or rougher, untill it returns to regular pattern again.
This graphic illustrates a bit what I mean:
http://ams.allenpress.com/archive/1520-0426/19/2/figure/i1520-0426-19-2-225-f04.gif
(Acoustically determined surface elevation obtained from the vertically oriented sonar over a 5-min period at high sea state. (a) Measurement based on the threshold method, illustrating drop-out due to dense bubble clouds. (b) The result obtained by integrating the vertical velocity data)
Frederf
03-01-10, 06:10 AM
Well, if you're a DD, escort or not, you're not out there to get a sun tan. You will keep the sonar active all the time, even when going fast and straight.
I know the Japanese escorts were keen on pinging like the clappers 24-7 which had the downside of drawing every Tom, Dick, and Harry from miles around to get a pot shot. Weren't the British escorts smarter and preferred stealth to constant ping use?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZL7-nclmO0&feature=related
4:39-4:45 and 6:53 - 7:04 That how it should go, this sea is not really rough ...
corvette k225
03-01-10, 07:53 AM
This thing was made for kid's. Ubisoft has taken me for a fool.:damn:
oscar19681
03-01-10, 07:54 AM
This is what the devs said about the whole thing in the Q&A .
Will there be improved ship buoyancy dynamics EG the roll and pitch of the submarine?
Yes. Physics throughout the game is under tuning. We added a “flooded” mechanic to enemy ships as well, which simulates water flowing from one compartment to another, thus buoyancy is expected to be more realistic.
This really blows my mind! They say stuff like this and we still get subs on rails!! I wonder what they mean by "buoyancy is expected to be more realistic" or "Physics throughout the game is under tuning" thats why i thought we were ok regardig the dredfull subs in rails.
Michal788
03-01-10, 08:00 AM
I hope we see more in the first update.
oscar19681
03-01-10, 08:02 AM
I hope we see more in the first update.
Well i afraid the community has to fix this since the Q&A posted here is pretty old allready. I would be very suprised if they fix it in a patch since they never did for sh-4.
Michal788
03-01-10, 08:24 AM
"Physics throughout the game is under tuning."
Maybe it is not finish before 5 march.
But ofcourse i hope that they fix it.:up:
theluckyone17
03-01-10, 08:45 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOtwcYC2bIM&feature=player_embedded#
The vertical motion of the uboat looks good to me, compared to the latter video. What seems to be missing is the rolling & pitching...
oscar19681
03-01-10, 09:05 AM
The vertical motion of the uboat looks good to me, compared to the latter video. What seems to be missing is the rolling & pitching...
Yes indeed.
AVGWarhawk
03-01-10, 09:33 AM
USS Taney now CG Cutter Taney:
http://taney.org/taneyphoto/Taney-SF_Bar_2.jpg
Needs something like that. For the heavy seas in SH4/5.
That video is incredible!!!
Also, there is a thread here about the interior colors. It seems it indeed alternated between gray and white between different boats. Take a few watches of this amazing vid.
On a different note, I just wonder if this was a Goebles project (SP). or made be a competant Kreigsmarine fellow.
http://ve3d.ign.com/videos/63014/Other/General/Trailer/February-22-Sail-Simulator-2010-Launch-Trailer
This looks very good :)
Paajtor
03-01-10, 04:29 PM
http://ve3d.ign.com/videos/63014/Other/General/Trailer/February-22-Sail-Simulator-2010-Launch-Trailer
This looks very good :)
Off course...it's made in Holland!:yeah:
EgoApocalypse
03-01-10, 06:01 PM
W_CLEAR to the rescue .........up up and away .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kTWwJ9NQbY this explains it perfectly .
Missed that.
Hehe.:D
Sailor Steve
03-01-10, 06:47 PM
This video from Sparrowfist shows some good pitch movement from the boat in the short sequence beginning at 2:59
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyQ1sxHeoa4
oscar19681
03-01-10, 06:57 PM
This video from Sparrowfist shows some good pitch movement from the boat in the short sequence beginning at 2:59
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyQ1sxHeoa4
Yes it does. Which makes me believe that it depends on the sea state. I guess how rougher the sea the worse the sub pitches and roll maybe.
derblaueClaus
03-01-10, 07:31 PM
In the Video Sailor Steve postet the behavior of the boat looks quite realistic. Hmm also some very positive news from others but I'm still not sure if I should buy it.......:hmmm:
CaptainNemo12
03-01-10, 07:37 PM
This video from Sparrowfist shows some good pitch movement from the boat in the short sequence beginning at 2:59
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyQ1sxHeoa4
The music is AMAZING!!
Task Force
03-01-10, 07:58 PM
This video from Sparrowfist shows some good pitch movement from the boat in the short sequence beginning at 2:59
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyQ1sxHeoa4
Hmm, Nice movement, but I knoticed alot of partical glitches...
theluckyone17
03-01-10, 08:32 PM
This video from Sparrowfist shows some good pitch movement from the boat in the short sequence beginning at 2:59
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyQ1sxHeoa4
That's Pretty. :sunny:
oscar19681
03-02-10, 06:40 AM
I pm,ed Dan and this is what he had to say about the subject.
"Hi Oscar,
Regarding the subs on rails, I was aware of it but its not an easy fix.
We didn't have the amount of time/dev resources to resolve this properly before release - also in light what other stuff needed fixing. Maybe in one of the future patches.
Dan"
urfisch
03-02-10, 07:14 AM
Testpilot1978 changed the behavior of the boat in waves for sh3 successfully...it is rolling in the waves now...
test his new VIIB and check the rolling:
http://rapidshare.com/files/357835315/Testpilots_Typ_7B_Boot_V2.11.rar
:up:
oscar19681
03-02-10, 07:43 AM
Testpilot1978 changed the behavior of the boat in waves for sh3 successfully...it is rolling in the waves now...
test his new VIIB and check the rolling:
http://rapidshare.com/files/357835315/Testpilots_Typ_7B_Boot_V2.11.rar
:up:
I would have to install sh-3 again. I rather wait for him to fix it in sh-5.
I pm,ed Dan and this is what he had to say about the subject.
"Hi Oscar,
Regarding the subs on rails, I was aware of it but its not an easy fix.
We didn't have the amount of time/dev resources to resolve this properly before release - also in light what other stuff needed fixing. Maybe in one of the future patches.
Dan"
:damn:
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.