Can I sink a hospital ship and sleep at night?

[applesthecat]

Okay, I have been waiting for days for something to come along. Days and days off the coast of Ireland and nothing. Then, out of the darkness, my watch officer tells me there is a hospital ship coming. Just my luck. Strangely, no sound contact. (thanks to automatic identification, otherwise I would have sunk it)

Now, I know we are penalized for sinking a hospital ship as it is against the rules. But I have two questions:

1) considering the ship is coming from America and going to England, it would not have any wounded on board. It should be empty except for doctors and nurses. Legal issues aside, what are the ethical arguments for sinking it vs. not sinking it, considering that wounded soldiers are not present and it is, after all, an asset for fighting a war in which winner takes all.

2) Am I a bad person for wanting to sink a hospital ship in a computer http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/2ujox35.jpg:arrgh!: Or do I need to get out more?


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/2ujox35.jpghttp://i49.tinypic.com/2ujox35.jpg


I decided to fire my flak guns, if nothing else, just to see what would happen. Much to my surprise, she reacted and shone her spot lights in my direction. See below

http://i48.tinypic.com/33acsgm.jpg

I decided to let her go. Here she is sailing off due to my magnanimity.

http://i49.tinypic.com/a9s12t.jpg

[SubHunter88]

In the game, I personally would have wasted that sucker.... I mean it's just to easy :P and after all letting it complete its mission means medicine and doctors helping the enemy = more troops droping on our coast at D DAY


IRL U-boats did often break international laws of war; rather at the will of the comander or by order in many cases we will never know since these ships an thier radio logs ended up at the botom of the atlantic. At any rate my tactical sence would say to me that if in a real war, facing an iminent war on our home soil, I would employ any and all means to hinder the enemy regardless of international conventions. "Survival of the fittest"

[Castout]

I would sink her and to avoid the point penalty I would atb tab the game and end it through task manager :arrgh!:

[BillCar]

In GWX (I believe), you can sink her and not sleep just at night, but forever and ever and ever!

Firing squads can make you really sleepy like that. It's pretty much like drinking an entire bottle of NyQuil, except the NyQuil is being shot into you and it's also a bullet.

[Apache312]

Kaleuns,

During this career, I have let 2 Hospital ships go by. We are not animals, we are gentlemen. I am an American in a German U-boat (which beckons me to be evil), but I also know that during WW2, the sub officers and the Luftwaffe officers were humane. Even Rommel showed humanity was more important than getting an easy kill. Officers were not all buying into Nazism, so we too can afford to be humane....after all, we are Kaleuns.

/S

Apache312

[KL-alfman]

right words, Apache!

[Apache312]

right words, Apache!

Thank you KL-alfman. It all boils down to one word...HONOR!

/S

Apache312

[applesthecat]

So Apache, you are saying if I sink this hospital ship in SH3, that would be evil? And being an American playing SH3, beckons you to be evil, as well?

You do realize this post was about sinking hospital ships in a computer game, not in real life?

[Apache312]

So Apache, you are saying if I sink this hospital ship in SH3, that would be evil? And being an American playing SH3, beckons you to be evil, as well?

You do realize this post was about sinking hospital ships in a computer game, not in real life?

lol...yep, its a computer game. To each their own I say. I am not getting on anyone's case regarding their playing a game the way they want to...just noteing that ROE are something to be considered. I play simulators with diligence, but being evil is not in my person. I tried playing Fallout3 as evil and couldnt do it...even in a game. But as I said, enjoy. Just offering a difference in opinion...not suggesting that you molest cats. (Thats a joke..you can smile) Happy hunting.

/S

Apache312

[Jimbuna]

So Apache, you are saying if I sink this hospital ship in SH3, that would be evil? And being an American playing SH3, beckons you to be evil, as well?

You do realize this post was about sinking hospital ships in a computer game, not in real life?

Keep a cool head Kaleun....the game is there to be played for enjoyment and everyone will play it the way it gives them most enjoyment http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[krashkart]

The only enemy ships I spare are any under 500 tons. Would be kind of nice if the sim took into account how much shipping is taken down on either side and adjusted overall war victory to suit. Oh well. Not every game can play like a spreadsheet.

[Sailor Steve]

1) considering the ship is coming from America and going to England, it would not have any wounded on board. It should be empty except for doctors and nurses.
So you don't want to kill soldiers who are already wounded, but killing non-combatants whose sole duty is to save lives is okay?

Legal issues aside, what are the ethical arguments for sinking it vs. not sinking it, considering that wounded soldiers are not present and it is, after all, an asset for fighting a war in which winner takes all.
You don't know there are no soldiers on board, and I stand beside my above argument.

Am I a bad person for wanting to sink a hospital ship in a computer?
No, but you ovbiously are concerned enought to try to justify it in your own mind.

Besides, it will cost you ten times the normal renown (I think - it may be more).

[KL-alfman]

nobody wants to judge you or your actions, applesthecat.
but you questioned what the community thinks so there might be different opinions.
if someone says it's a matter of honour not to sink hospital ships one states only his point of view.
if you like this tonnage do it! you are not killing real people.
but pls be aware that some others won't because they think it wouldn't be right. even in hardest battles.

and I might add:
not all of the u-boat commanders had high standards of morale and honour all the time.

so it's just up to you. :03:

[applesthecat]

Sailor Steve, I don't know why you get your panties into a twist. This was a lighthearted thread about a sinking a virtual ship in a video game. You and Apache seemed to have totally missed that. Let's draw back from our virtual world for a moment and remember sinking virtual ships is fun. Certainly no one can argue that killing or destroying things in a computer game is a reflection of values in real life. Some people take things so seriously when it is totally inappropriate.

And yes, there is a difference between sinking a ship full of wounded soldiers, and sinking one without if you really want to go there.

[Randomizer]

In GWX sinking a hospital ship will end your career and get you shot.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=155686

Sailor Steve points out one of the great ethical dilemmas of warfare, if it is considered correct to kill one of the enemy, why is it not correct to kill them all?

If you cannot kill them all, how many can you kill? Who is qualified to quantify when enough is enough?

If you can legally kill the bomb-dropper, why not the bomb maker?

If one can shell a first aid post, as is statistically possible during any indirect fire program, sinking a hosptial ship differs only in scale and probability.

How does laying a mine that sinks a hospital ship differ from torpedoing one?

No ethical judgements are intended here, once the decision has been made to use lethal force to impose a political agenda it is very easy to have violence escalate and societal mores fall off the rails. In WW2 an errant 500 pound bomb that killed non-combattents was called a miss but in our enlightened 21st Century some would have the same thing today a war crime akin to the Holocaust.

That is why wars are better avoided than fought but if one needs to be fought, they are better won than lost. The winners get to decide when any particular action is "correct" or not. That may be unacceptable to some but it's the reality of war and politics since the dawn of time.

Answers to the above and other questions are entirely subjective, all any soldier/sailor/airman can do is make the best decision they can at the time and hope that those who presume to judge their actions can put it into the context of the event.

<Climbs off soap box while donning Nomex suit and body armour>

[FIREWALL]

In GWX sinking a hospital ship will end your career and get you shot.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=155686

Sailor Steve points out one of the great ethical dilemmas of warfare, if it is considered correct to kill one of the enemy, why is it not correct to kill them all?

If you cannot kill them all, how many can you kill? Who is qualified to quantify when enough is enough?

If you can legally kill the bomb-dropper, why not the bomb maker?

If one can shell a first aid post, as is statistically possible during any indirect fire program, sinking a hosptial ship differs only in scale and probability.

How does laying a mine that sinks a hospital ship differ from torpedoing one?

No ethical judgements are intended here, once the decision has been made to use lethal force to impose a political agenda it is very easy to have violence escalate and societal mores fall off the rails. In WW2 an errant 500 pound bomb that killed non-combattents was called a miss but in our enlightened 21st Century some would have the same thing today a war crime akin to the Holocaust.

That is why wars are better avoided than fought but if one needs to be fought, they are better won than lost. The winners get to decide when any particular action is "correct" or not. That may be unacceptable to some but it's the reality of war and politics since the dawn of time.

Answers to the above and other questions are entirely subjective, all any soldier/sailor/airman can do is make the best decision they can at the time and hope that those who presume to judge their actions can put it into the context of the event.

<Climbs off soap box while donning Nomex suit and body armour>

After reading your link I, had to go check it out.

Late 1940 in BF grid area.

Sunk a hospital ship. Got big renown hit. That's it.

Play GWX3, SH3C 3.2 100% DiD

[PappyCain]

I'd have to give them a pass. Why? Little AI nurses have a special place in my heart, as do the AI wounded who are in enough pain and suffering, not to mention the AI sailors on my boat who look up to me and my leadership!

:salute:

[Matador.es]

lol...yep, its a computer game. To each their own I say. I am not getting on anyone's case regarding their playing a game the way they want to...just noteing that ROE are something to be considered. I play simulators with diligence, but being evil is not in my person. I tried playing Fallout3 as evil and couldnt do it...even in a game. But as I said, enjoy. Just offering a difference in opinion...not suggesting that you molest cats. (Thats a joke..you can smile) Happy hunting.

/S

Apache312

Well, one could wounder if it could or could not in real life.... but whats the point of the thought, if the dead is taped.... It happend :down:

I red the book Iron Coffins, stating it was an ussue for german commanders and most did not kill ppl in "the drawn".

See video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6gFQH54k0M

Aye

[Jimbuna]

After reading your link I, had to go check it out.

Late 1940 in BF grid area.

Sunk a hospital ship. Got big renown hit. That's it.

Play GWX3, SH3C 3.2 100% DiD

That is correct....no career ending, simply a wack load of renown.

[Iranon]

Pretty much everyone would rather have you leave these hospital ships alone. The Kriegsmarine was quite touchy about the laws of war in some respect - Dönitz was more than annoyed when his Italian colleague told him that hospital ships make great weapons transports *wink wink*.

There were incidents of german submarines brining survivors ashore under the red cross flag... a practice which ended with the Laconia incident. Brief rundown: A German submarine sank a passenger liner that was modified for use as a troop ship but turned out to have mostly passengers and Italian prisoners onboard. Several submarines were ordered to the same spot for a rescue operation, all flying the red cross flag. After these came under fire from American bombers, Dönitz ordered that such operations were not to be attempted in the future, and there was bitterness all around (also about Dönitz' later conviction as a war criminal for giving that order. Most german submariners and quite a few allied naval officers felt it was unjust.)

So... definitely play nice until Septermber 42. Overreacting in the aftermath of that incident would be somewhat more realstic but the KM would not have condoned such blatant war crimes by their own reckoning.

[Falkirion]

I made contact with a hospital ship. I let it go despite it being the first contact I'd had in over a week.

[Sailor Steve]

Sailor Steve, I don't know why you get your panties into a twist. This was a lighthearted thread about a sinking a virtual ship in a video game. You and Apache seemed to have totally missed that. Let's draw back from our virtual world for a moment and remember sinking virtual ships is fun. Certainly no one can argue that killing or destroying things in a computer game is a reflection of values in real life. Some people take things so seriously when it is totally inappropriate.

And yes, there is a difference between sinking a ship full of wounded soldiers, and sinking one without if you really want to go there.
My panties in a twist?
:rotfl2:

Did you even read the last line of my post? Maybe I need thirty-two smilies to put it into perspective (unfortunately you can only do twelve at a time).

My comments were directed at your comment, and I was speaking in character to your character.

And yes, the only thing that really matters here is that if you sink the hospital ship you will lose a huge amoung of renown. I can tell you how to change that if you like.:dead:

[sharkbit]

The red crosses painted on the side make perfect aiming points. :O:

Never had the guts to pull the trigger though.....sail on my friends. :salute:

[Paul Riley]

Hi guys.
I find it difficult to even sink a ship bearing the English flag,let alone a medical ship.On the other hand,if they bear either American,Russian,French,or even Argentinian flags then they will go to the bottom no problem.I like to fight my own little personal wars sometimes :smug:
And as we are all keen to stress this far...its just a game.
Still,sinking a hospital ship I reckon I wouldnt sleep again...you EVIL butchers!! ONLY JOKING!! (Just wanted to get the blood pumping there) :up:
Have fun,however you like to approach the game.

[Paul Riley]

Just one last little clarification.
Think of it like a predator would,in this case the great white shark would be an ideal candidate.If the shark considered every moral factor involved in the attack it would never feed and ultimately starve.We are predators,grey wolves,and our job is to destroy,slow and even hinder the enemy at every turn.That hospital ship could even be a decoy,it could for all you know be carrying extra troops,and letting it pass would be letting those troops land safely.Personally speaking,I wouldnt attack it as I like to save my torpedos for convoys (if possible)...but it would still be tempting nonetheless :arrgh!: