View Full Version : Why is the boat dark grey on the inside?
GertFroebe_neu
02-26-10, 04:47 AM
Yes, my question is: why are the u-boats in SH5 dark grey on the inside? U-Boats insides were painted in white or ivory to scatter the light and make the inside more bright.
I have the feeling that the Devs were inspired by DAS BOOT, where the inside color is the wrong one too.
I hope that can be modded in the future, with all the baked light in the textures ...
cheers
Marc
Nisgeis
02-26-10, 04:59 AM
The historical document 'Das Boot' is a source of inspiration for many. It should be possible to mod it.
urfisch
02-26-10, 07:34 AM
surely this can be modded. the whole sh5 game was inspired by "das boot"...
I ahve seen pictures where large parts of the boats where not painted, but yes, as a rule interiors should be white.
kapitan_zur_see
02-26-10, 08:14 AM
Sometimes, you people are too narrow-minded, if you'll excuse me, about realism for some trivial matters. It's a probability the game was inspired from das boot, though you remember the devs visited some real uboat...
For das boot however, the choice of dark grey is for obvious reasons. Realism is not everything, it's above all, a dramatic movie!
And a dark grey interior easily fits better in a drama movie, not to mention it emphasis better a claustrophobic atmosphere. It was intended, no big deal...
But yes you will be able to mod it, though in my opinion, it will look less good, will feel less dramatic. But that's just a matter of taste, i guess...
Turbografx
02-26-10, 09:53 AM
Some people expect accuracy in a sim. After performance and modeling, detail is important. This is not a misplaced rivet, the interior color is wrong, the interior is a major part of the sub representation..
Heretic
02-26-10, 10:01 AM
Some people expect accuracy in a sim. After performance and modeling, detail is important. This is not a misplaced rivet, the interior color is wrong, the interior is a major part of the sub representation..
There's two aspects to accuracy - appearance and performance. Personally, I'd prefer the development resources be devoted to accurate performance as first priority. If it doesn't perform in a historically accurate manner, eye candy, however accurate, is small consolation.
Subnuts
02-26-10, 11:08 AM
Sometimes, you people are too narrow-minded, if you'll excuse me, about realism for some trivial matters. It's a probability the game was inspired from das boot, though you remember the devs visited some real uboat...
For das boot however, the choice of dark grey is for obvious reasons. Realism is not everything, it's above all, a dramatic movie!
I imagine it was a deliberate choice on the part of the cinematographer, Jost Vacano. As it was, the only lights they could use were the ones already part of the set, and those had to be substantially brighter than the "real" ones due to limitations of the film they were using. If they'd painted the interior white, as it was IRL, you'd end up with "hot spots" all over the place that wouldn't look good on the big screen. So, the interior of the submarine in Das Boot was painted dark grey to avoid this problem.
Yeah, I'm kind of a film geek. :O:
Bilge_Rat
02-26-10, 11:23 AM
I imagine it was a deliberate choice on the part of the cinematographer, Jost Vacano. As it was, the only lights they could use were the ones already part of the set, and those had to be substantially brighter than the "real" ones due to limitations of the film they were using. If they'd painted the interior white, as it was IRL, you'd end up with "hot spots" all over the place that wouldn't look good on the big screen. So, the interior of the submarine in Das Boot was painted dark grey to avoid this problem.
Yeah, I'm kind of a film geek. :O:
for the same reasons, I am not convinced a white interior would show up properly on a computer screen. for example, pics of U-995:
http://www.uboat.net/gallery/u995/photos//ames_u995_aft3.jpg
http://www.uboat.net/gallery/u995/photos//ames_u995_controls.jpg
light/medium gray might show up better...:hmmm:
LiveGoat
02-26-10, 11:36 AM
Exactly. An ivory interior would have been a gaffer's nightmare, also it would have meant an increase in budget for the set construction as I'm sure the dark interior was a good way to hide some obvious plywood walls. Also it's a good way to hide walls that tend to wiggle during depth charge scenes. There is one scene, I believe where you can see a wall waggle but it's been awhile and I can't remember which scene. The rule of set construction for the stage says: "As long as it looks real from 15 feet away." For film I'd guess 3 feet or so.
I imagine it was a deliberate choice on the part of the cinematographer, Jost Vacano. As it was, the only lights they could use were the ones already part of the set, and those had to be substantially brighter than the "real" ones due to limitations of the film they were using. If they'd painted the interior white, as it was IRL, you'd end up with "hot spots" all over the place that wouldn't look good on the big screen. So, the interior of the submarine in Das Boot was painted dark grey to avoid this problem.
Yeah, I'm kind of a film geek. :O:
Nisgeis
02-26-10, 12:32 PM
There's two aspects to accuracy - appearance and performance.
And whether it matches the historical document 'Das boot'. :DL.
alexradu89
02-26-10, 01:06 PM
so... UBI has failed -.-
jerm138
02-26-10, 01:32 PM
While the OP may sound nitpicky, I'm glad he at least brought it up and that someone else posted pictures. I had no idea that they were painted white, and it does look quite different.
On my boat the only place that was painted white was the Reactor Compartment. It was REALLY bright in there! I could see that being a nightmare for filmmakers. Plus a dark boat does give a much more claustrophobic feel, which is one of the best things about Das Boot.
I don't care much about what interior color they choose as long as it's not Sea Foam Green. That color makes me want to vomit.
A little side story about the white paint in our Reactor Compartment (RC): One day during a long underway when everybody is bored out of their mind and has run out of stories to tell, one of the mechanics came up to me and said he had a "secret" to show me. Knowing what a dangerous situation that could be on a sub, I hesitantly followed him to the aft bulkhead of the RC where we had a small periscope-like window that allowed us to look into the sealed compartment. Right in front of the view is a Steam Generator (basically a big boiler tank, also painted white). He told me to stay there and keep looking as he walked away. Expecting something horrible to happen to me, I kept my guard up as I alternated between looking through the window, and looking over my shoulder. While looking through the window, the lights went off in the RC as he flipped a breaker. The view went pitch black except for huge glow-in-the-dark letters painted on the side of the Steam Generator that said "FTN." (for those that don't know... FTN stands for "F--- The Navy", even though we often insisted that it meant "Fully Trained Nuke.") I'm not sure if upper command ever found out about it because the glow-paint is clear when the lights are on and the only way to see it is to know the secret.
Sailor Steve
02-26-10, 01:32 PM
so... UBI has failed -.-
Did you read Bilge Rat's comment above? If he's right, then UBI suceeded admirably. We won't know for sure until somebody tries to mod the wall white.
vickers03
02-26-10, 01:40 PM
i think SH3 had the white paint, looking at the
textures but it looked grey because of the lighting.
And whether it matches the historical document 'Das boot'. :DL.
Anyone else think of Galaxy Quest when this was mentioned?
Decoman
02-26-10, 02:39 PM
I did actually :D
Nisgeis
02-26-10, 02:52 PM
Anyone else think of Galaxy Quest when this was mentioned?
That was the intention :O:. A fictional account being held up as a yard stick to measure all things against and the absurdity of it. Nice spot to you both!
A fictional account being held up as a yard stick to measure all things against and the absurdity of it.
Ah, I didn't know if it was intentional or not.
Good point, subtly made :up:
The wartime shots from the inside of a U-boat that I have seen the interior is indeed grey. They were not painted white, American boats...white...British boats...White. U-boats...Grey.
Why? Don't know.
My thinking is that the interiors actually were not painted, due to the fact these boats were not meant to last long, and were built in a rushed manner.
People that Pan Das Boot must remember that the captain of the ACTUAL U-96 was on set during the filming. Something tells me the word of an actual war time commander of these boats would bear far more than us rivet counters. (I can't remember this Man's name, but he later became the head of the 9th flotilla, and the actual U-96 made it through the war, and was last used as a training vessel.
The boats on display now are painted inside for the same reason American boats were, to slow down corrosion, or in the case of U-995, to stop corrosion of this historic vessel.
Nisgeis
02-26-10, 04:44 PM
People that Pan Das Boot must remember that the captain of the ACTUAL U-96 was on set during the filming. Something tells me the word of an actual war time commander of these boats would bear far more than us rivet counters.
Requirements of film massively outweigh anything else due to broadcast standards. It wouldn't have mattered if the U-Boats were painted sky blue pink, with tartan, if it didn't look good on film, it wouldn't have been shot that way. The human eye has an amazing HDR, the camera does not.
You're forgetting that even the author of 'Das Boot' had series criticisms of the film and... well, he was there! Whose word would you take in that case - someone who was there or someone who wasn't? :hmmm:
Bottom line... Das Boot is not a historical document, it's an entertainment product to entertain us. Nothing more. You cannot draw inference of reality from things depicted in it.
Hello all, I rarely post but thought I might have something to add to this discussion. Ubootwaffe painting instructions standarized the colors of uboat hull interiors. The instructions called for the upper half to be painted RAL 9001 Elfenbeinweiss (Ivory White) and the lower hull half to be painted RAL 9002 Grauweiss (Grey White). One has to be careful using U995 as an example for interior colors, both because it was used and repainted in areas by the Norwegian Navy before it was sold to Germany and because of inaccuracies in interpeting historical records when the uboat was repainted in the early 1980's. U505, on the other hand, was very accurately repainted when it underwent its major restoration 6 or so years ago.
Ernest
Nisgeis
02-26-10, 05:10 PM
You should post more often Ernest :DL. You'll make those of us that don't know anything look bad, but that's OK :yeah:.
Jimbuna
02-26-10, 05:28 PM
Hello all, I rarely post but thought I might have something to add to this discussion. Ubootwaffe painting instructions standarized the colors of uboat hull interiors. The instructions called for the upper half to be painted RAL 9001 Elfenbeinweiss (Ivory White) and the lower hull half to be painted RAL 9002 Grauweiss (Grey White). One has to be careful using U995 as an example for interior colors, both because it was used and repainted in areas by the Norwegian Navy before it was sold to Germany and because of inaccuracies in interpeting historical records when the uboat was repainted in the early 1980's. U505, on the other hand, was very accurately repainted when it underwent its major restoration 6 or so years ago.
Ernest
An excellent informative post....my pictures, not being in colour, prevent me from deciding, but your post makes it easier to come to a conclusion....cheers http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif
Requirements of film massively outweigh anything else due to broadcast standards. It wouldn't have mattered if the U-Boats were painted sky blue pink, with tartan, if it didn't look good on film, it wouldn't have been shot that way. The human eye has an amazing HDR, the camera does not.
You're forgetting that even the author of 'Das Boot' had series criticisms of the film and... well, he was there! Whose word would you take in that case - someone who was there or someone who wasn't? :hmmm:
Bottom line... Das Boot is not a historical document, it's an entertainment product to entertain us. Nothing more. You cannot draw inference of reality from things depicted in it.
Criticism by novel author Buchheim
Buchheim himself was a U-boat correspondent. He has stated that the following film scenes are unrealistic:
In the film, an unidentified member of the crew throws an oil-stained towel into Lt. Werner's face. As a Lieutenant, Werner would have commanded special respect and in reality, the culprit would have been court-martialed and received a hefty sentence.
The crew behaves far too loudly during patrols; the celebrations after getting a torpedo hit were described as unprofessional. For example, after surviving a bombing, the crew celebrate loudly in their bunks, even with a sailor dressing up as a woman in a red-lit room.
Even though overwhelmed by the literally perfect technological accuracy of the film's set-design and port construction buildings, novel author Lothar-Günter Buchheim expressed great disappointment with Petersen's adaptation in a film review[3] published in 1981, especially with Petersen's aesthetic vision for the film and the way the plot and the effects are, according to him, overdone and clichéd by the adaptation. As well he criticised the hysterical over-acting of the cast, which he called highly unrealistic, while acknowledging the cast's acting talent in general. Buchheim, after several attempts for an American adaptation had failed, had provided a script detailing his own narrative, cinematographical and photographical ideas as soon as Petersen was chosen as new director. It would have amounted in full to a complete 6-hour epic; however Petersen turned him down because at the time the producers were aiming for a 90-minute feature for international release. Ironically, today's Director's Cut of Das Boot amounts to over 200 minutes, and the complete TV version of the film to roughly 5 hours long.
Buchheim attacked specifically what he called Petersen's sacrificing of both realism and suspense in dialogue, narration, and photography for the sake of cheap dramatic thrills and action effects (for example, in reality one single exploding bolt of the boat's pressure hull would have been enough for the whole crew to worry about the U-boat being crushed by water pressure, while Petersen has several bolts loosening in various scenes).
Uttering deep concerns about the end result, Buchheim felt that unlike his clearly anti-war novel the adaptation was "another re-glorification and re-mystification"[3] of the German WWII U-boat war, German heroism and nationalism. He called the film a cross between a "cheap, shallow American action flick"[3] and a "contemporary German propaganda newsreel from World War II".[3]
Is that you Thor?
The Croatian bomber?
Is that you Thor?
The Croatian bomber?
I thought you have put two and two together already :D
Nice to see you mate. :) I've been playing SH4 lately, the only thing that runs on my broken PC. So I visit these forums often lately.
urfisch
02-26-10, 05:52 PM
buchheim complained about many things...in the film. and he was really upset and angry about the cinema version of the movie.
but later, as he had seen the full length version, he was astonished to the realistic setting and play of the actors. he felt like send back 40 years...even some scenes never would have happened that way the movie shows them. not only the oil towel scene was mentioned, also the screaming of the crew during dc waves, the way the kaleun listens on the headphones to the contacts, etc.
but all in all, he was more lucky than upset with the final version. this all can be found in the book "searching for the crew of u96 (die suche nach der crew von u96)" http://www.amazon.de/Das-Boot-Suche-nach-Crew/dp/389487550X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267224672&sr=8-1 a book following the exhibition of "das boot" in the german movie museum in 2007. very interesting, to read notes from all sides of the crew, in front of and behind the camera.
JScones
02-26-10, 06:20 PM
Nothing beats the actual German wartime building specs...
From the Allegmeinen building regulations No. 31, edition March 1940 (http://www.u-boot-archiv.de/dieboote/farben_maerz_1940.html)
From the Allegmeinen building regulations No. 31, edition July 1944 (http://www.u-boot-archiv.de/dieboote/farben_juli_1944.html)
In German, but I'm sure someone can translate better than Babelfish.
You can match it to the RAL colour card here... http://www.themeter.net/ral_e.htm
It seems...shock horror...that...shock...Das Boot may be...shock...wrong... Yeah, yeah, I know, impossible, but still...
bigboywooly
02-26-10, 07:23 PM
Nothing beats the actual German wartime building specs...
From the Allegmeinen building regulations No. 31, edition March 1940 (http://www.u-boot-archiv.de/dieboote/farben_maerz_1940.html)
From the Allegmeinen building regulations No. 31, edition July 1944 (http://www.u-boot-archiv.de/dieboote/farben_juli_1944.html)
In German, but I'm sure someone can translate better than Babelfish.
You can match it to the RAL colour card here... http://www.themeter.net/ral_e.htm
It seems...shock horror...that...shock...Das Boot may be...shock...wrong... Yeah, yeah, I know, impossible, but still...
Just posted those links then saw you had
lmao
:yeah:
Ducimus
02-26-10, 07:32 PM
It seems...shock horror...that...shock...Das Boot may be...shock...wrong... Yeah, yeah, I know, impossible, but still...
Blasphemy! Repent now or be excommunicated and branded an infidel! :haha:
Bow to the one true god!
http://www.dataphone.se/~ms/ubootw/movies_das-boot_directors-cut_poster-cover.jpghttp://dbcgroups.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/bowing.jpg
If anyone is interested I can translate and post Section a, which deals with interior colors, of the document(s) that JScones posted. This is an important document that is mostly accurate and very helpful to determining correct colors. It also illustrates a few of the pitfalls researchers have to watchout for when using primary source documents as references. For example, the two rightmost columns in the 1940 document states: 2 Coats of fire resistant color RAL 9003 Ivory White.
RAL 9003 is actually Signal White, a very white shade. Why the mistake? Well there is no definitive answer, but IMHO I think the original translation had a mistake in it, very easy to make with some of the original German documents from WWII as they were in what was known as Frakturschrift, which can be hard to make out in older documents.
As an aside, as I am sure more then a few people are wondering how I happen to know something about this rather arcane subject, I am currently building the CMK interior sets for a 1/72 scale Type VIIc build. I spent a few months doing research and as luck would have it I was able to look at many original documents in the Military Archives in Germany.
Ernest
LiveGoat
02-26-10, 08:04 PM
Dougie Martindale did a document about Kriegsmarine paint specs:
http://www.rokket.biz/models/modelsweb/rokket/u557/paint.shtml
This link talks about the interior a bit:
http://events.nace.org/library/articles/features/uboat.asp
Hi LiveGoat, Dougie did a great job on his document dealing with uboat colors, though his document covers mostly exterior colors. Understandable, as that document is was written a a reference for modellers. I post fairly frequently over on Dougie and Wink Guise's forum, and have talked with both of them about this very topic. Always informative and interesting!
Your second link describes the research and repainting process that Keith Gill's team did while refurbishing U505. As a result of their outstanding work U505 is the "gold standard" for what a uboat most likely looked during WWII. The link is a very good one.
Ernest
Dougie Martindale did a document about Kriegsmarine paint specs:
http://www.rokket.biz/models/modelsweb/rokket/u557/paint.shtml
This link talks about the interior a bit:
http://events.nace.org/library/articles/features/uboat.asp
Elder-Pirate
02-26-10, 09:29 PM
SHIV Gato ( USS Drum ) Modded interior:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/Sprucedtheoldgirlrightup.jpg
Looks better than the SHV shots.
Well of course, it's American.
So you all are saying that the presence of THE actual war time Commander of U-96 would not know the color of his own damn boat?
As far as Buchiem bitching about Das Boot, Have you all not read the novel? Yes as with any literary work stuff is left out, but the parts that are in the film ARE IN THE NOVEL, including the screaming crew!!!
Read the novel, it is in there. The brooding captain...in there, the boisterous crew at the hit of a torpedo...IN THERE!!!
In Iron Coffins, Werner describes the interior of the first boat he saw as Wood paneled and GRAY!!!.
Perhaps there were several schemes used over the course of the war.
GertFroebe_neu
03-01-10, 04:15 AM
So you all are saying that the presence of THE actual war time Commander of U-96 would not know the color of his own damn boat?
As far as Buchiem bitching about Das Boot, Have you all not read the novel? Yes as with any literary work stuff is left out, but the parts that are in the film ARE IN THE NOVEL, including the screaming crew!!!
Read the novel, it is in there. The brooding captain...in there, the boisterous crew at the hit of a torpedo...IN THERE!!!
In Iron Coffins, Werner describes the interior of the first boat he saw as Wood paneled and GRAY!!!.
Perhaps there were several schemes used over the course of the war.
Calm down! Buchheim also took a lot of photos in the war. On these photos it can be seen, that the uboat was ivory-colored (or white because of the black/white photos).
I have since seen German propaganda films, and the interior of the boats seem to vary, it is possible one yard did things differently than the other. It is possible U-96 had a grey interior, and the boat Buchiem took pictures on other than 96 had the white interior.
Bilge_Rat
03-26-10, 12:43 PM
for those who don't visit the mod forum, modders have already released a white interior:
http://shmods.ailantd.com/shots/SH-V/AilWhiteInterior02.jpg
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=166161
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7113/allwhite2.jpg
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=165759
modders are doing some amazing work..:arrgh!:
SteamWake
03-26-10, 01:21 PM
LOL three pages of rant on the color of paint and its already been modded... Priceless ! :haha:
Nordmann
03-26-10, 01:30 PM
Not surprising really, why rant, when you fix. Simple really. Besides, I'm sure many boats differed greatly, especially when production ramped up.
Plus a dark boat does give a much more claustrophobic feel, which is one of the best things about Das Boot.
Boats were painted in bright colors also to have a positive effect on the sailors' morale. The same is done today in space stations (ever seen interior shots of Salyut and Mir? They were painted in light blue, a color very close to the tint used inside soviet subs of the era).
SabreHawk
03-26-10, 02:19 PM
Someone said it right, accuracy on something like this isn't everything. And on this color subject, one must consider the effect a white interior color will have on your eyes staring at it on your monitor for the lengths of time we do.
IMO, it's likely to be too bright and hard on the eyes after a while. So this color choice the DEV's made is probably due to this.
All simulation is a comprimise from the real thing and some things like this are done like it is as they are to accomidate the limits of the human eye, and the strain it may have on it.
One reason why I like the colors of this forum for instance, over those of other's I visit who's background is white. Very hard on my eyes, and I really notice the difference when I've been reading here for a while, and then go to say RCG foums and my eyes just go bonkers with it's white background.
Nordmann
03-26-10, 02:21 PM
That is very true actually. I dislike bright colours, especially those displayed on a monitor; bright white being one of the worst offenders for headaches. This forum has possibly the best theme I have seen, not too dark, and not too bright either.
SteamWake
03-26-10, 02:39 PM
Heh... maybe they did it to extend laptop battery time :haha:
java`s revenge
03-26-10, 02:47 PM
I have seen pictures today on this forum of somebody who is
modding the real colours....:hmmm:
LiveGoat
03-26-10, 02:48 PM
I used Ail's white interior last night in a mission and I must say I like it very much.
Regarding the boat being grey in Iron Coffins, I remember in the Martindale pdf that he mentioned the KM being more lax about boats being painted to spec due to shortages of paint and schedule crunches so it's very likely there were some boats near the end of the war (Iron Coffins covers the late war) that were possibly painted with grey interiors.
java`s revenge
03-26-10, 02:49 PM
Found it on the mod forum,
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=166161
Frederf
03-26-10, 03:08 PM
And the funny thing is, painted the proper lighter color... monitor, aesthetics are fine. My monitor didn't break looking at the modded screenshots. Someday UBI will make it the right way the first time.
TheElitePhoenix
03-30-10, 04:44 PM
Yes, my question is: why are the u-boats in SH5 dark grey on the inside? U-Boats insides were painted in white or ivory to scatter the light and make the inside more bright.
I have the feeling that the Devs were inspired by DAS BOOT, where the inside color is the wrong one too.
I hope that can be modded in the future, with all the baked light in the textures ...
cheers
Marc
Here's a mod you might want to try. It makes the interior white: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=166161
This mod has a couple of alternate floor colors to chose from: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1683
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.