Support the Community - DONT BUY SHV

[Uber Gruber]

If 61% of the voting subsim community have voted against buying till DRM is removed then surely the other 39% of the subsim community should support their fellows by at least holding off from purchase for a few weeks so that UBI get the hint ?

So if you buy then you're working against the majority of subsim members.

I accept this is a controversial stance.....but surely it would be nice to help support your community ?

Cheers, UG

[Noren]

Im sure not everybody will agree to this, Im for one is not buying until the DRM is cast aside and the game is something more than just flashy graphics.

Hopefully we can get the idea across to the developers.

[Darkhat]

Even if we don't buy it, the DRM won't probably be removed, I mean, we are not like millions of members at subsim, they won't lose too much money.

On the other side, if we don't buy, maybe there won't be another silent hunter :(.

And on the third side, the new DRM isn't installing malware or rootkit on your computer like securom, at least it seems so, an I think it should work out fine.

So as what it seems, if everyone buy this, we support the community by making the developers rich and able to make another silent hunter game with whatever we'd like. :) I dunno but I will buy it.

[Letum]

You won't change anyone's mind with a post like this.
You are more likely just to piss people off.

Me included.

[mookiemookie]

I'm going to buy it on Tuesday and take a picture of me caressing it. I will do this simply to rub it in the faces of people like you who are trying to bully and shame me into not buying it.

I really wish you would all quit with this attitude. Letum's right - you're pissing people off. Me included also.

[Wolfehunter]

Even if we don't buy it, the DRM won't probably be removed, I mean, we are not like millions of members at subsim, they won't lose too much money.

On the other side, if we don't buy, maybe there won't be another silent hunter :(.

And on the third side, the new DRM isn't installing malware or rootkit on your computer like securom, at least it seems so, an I think it should work out fine.

So as what it seems, if everyone buy this, we support the community by making the developers rich and able to make another silent hunter game with whatever we'd like. :) I dunno but I will buy it.Dude there are other ways to support Subsim by donating instead of paying for a crappy game. Ubi has lost me in there last crap game there putting out. There not getting my support. If that means this is there last SH game so be it. I didn't ask for this to happen. They didn't listen to there fans. They don't care about us, why should I care about them.

You want to help neal. Support by donating.

Neal though.. you may need to broaden your game selections in the future since ubi's gone wako... :up:

[urfisch]

Dude there are other ways to support Subsim by donating instead of paying for a crappy game. Ubi has lost me in there last crap game there putting out. There not getting my support. If that means this is there last SH game so be it. I didn't ask for this to happen. They didn't listen to there fans. They don't care about us, why should I care about them.

You want to help neal. Support by donating.

Neal though.. you may need to broaden your game selections in the future since ubi's gone wako... :up:

agreed!

:yeah:

[Sailor Steve]

I'm going to buy it on Tuesday and take a picture of me caressing it. I will do this simply to rub it in the faces of people like you who are trying to bully and shame me into not buying it.

I really wish you would all quit with this attitude. Letum's right - you're pissing people off. Me included also.
:rock:

I'm one of the people NOT buying it, and I'm starting to get pissed off by this kind of garbage posting too.

[ReFaN]

I'm going to buy it on Tuesday and take a picture of me caressing it. I will do this simply to rub it in the faces of people like you who are trying to bully and shame me into not buying it.

I really wish you would all quit with this attitude. Letum's right - you're pissing people off. Me included also.


im going to do more then caress it, going to make a hole an... ehm.

Im going to buy it atleast.

[Méo]

You won't change anyone's mind with a post like this.
You are more likely just to piss people off.

Me included.

Agreed.

Stop insulting people who disagree with you or don't share the same level of outrage.

Stop dictating what people should do or not do.

Stop saying what is crap when you never tested it and especially when you never offer a better solution.

----

Present some real & objective debate with concrete evidence and you will maybe convince me.

Until there my decision remain unchanged.

----

Edit: The Stop isn't an order, this is only a suggestion if you want to gain credibility, at least for me.

[oscar19681]

If 61% of the voting subsim community have voted against buying till DRM is removed then surely the other 39% of the subsim community should support their fellows by at least holding off from purchase for a few weeks so that UBI get the hint ?

So if you buy then you're working against the majority of subsim members.

I accept this is a controversial stance.....but surely it would be nice to help support your community ?

Cheers, UG

I refuse to hold back on a purchase because some statistic says 60% is agains purchase untill DRM is released . Allthough i understand you point of view and i am most certainly against DRM. I however feel that if you prevent or hold back purchases of sh-5 you could actually hurt the subsim community and submarinse simulations as a whole more then you actually realize. You essectially feel that you are some sort of hypthecal freedom fighter while in reality your nothing more then a hypothetical terrorist

[ichso]

I think people should stop wondering how their buy/refusal to buy will affect this community and the genre as a whole.
I you expect to like it: buy it. If you expect to not like it, for whatever reason, don't buy it.

And @UG: people who have their gripes with the game and/or DRM won't buy it anyway, and I don't believe that you can sway many - if anybody at all - who already made his decision to buy.

I for my part am not buying it right now because I simply have not enough time right now to really get into this game. This at least allows me to await a lot of reviews, impressions and feedback about how the whole DRM disaster turns out to be in reality.

[Méo]

I refuse to hold back on a purchase because some statistic says 60% is agains purchase untill DRM is released . Allthough i understand you point of view and i am most certainly against DRM. I however feel that if you prevent or hold back purchases of sh-5 you could actually hurt the subsim community and submarinse simulations as a whole more then you actually realize. You essectially feel that you are some sort of hypthecal freedom fighter while in reality your nothing more then a hypothetical terrorist

I understand what you mean Oscar and I agree with you to some extend.

But the ''hypothetical terrorist'' is really harsh, remember some of them may change their mind if everything goes alright with SHV, they will still be welcome.

Anyone can change their mind.

----

Edit: sorry, I read hypocritical instead of hypothetical, anyway I think you know what I mean.

[guynoir]

... hypothetical terrorist

Hypothetical terrorist?? Hah... that's a laugh. :rotfl2:

[piri_reis]

:down: This has been discussed before and all views have been expressed. Now please let people decide what they want to do.. This is not the correct way to act.

You can not start a thread in a SH5 Forum, asking people to support this forum by not buying the game !

I support a stand against the DRM but this is just not how it should be done.

[cherbert]

Support SUBSIM Community - DONT BUY SHV

Seems a massive contradiction in terms to me?

I'm buying it.

[Itkovian]

I am new to this community (I've been lurking for a while, mind you), but I am buying SHV to support the developers, and anybody willing to invest in simulations.

There are too few game studios out there who devote time and energy to simulations, and all of them deserve support IMO (given that you enjoy that kind of simulation, naturally). The 90s are over, and while there has been something of a resurgence of simulators in the east, the market is far from generous.

Ubi's DRM is unfortunate, and I hope it will fade away as the RoF one did, but campaigning to deny the sales that the devs depend on to survive is not the way to go IMO.

Thank you.

Itkovian

[Hackerspy]

I am going to BUY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Al of you who tell us not to buy a suck EXCEPTIONAL game, are....... and don't force us not to buy it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:stare::stare::shifty::shifty: :down::down::nope::nope:

[Méo]

I am new to this community (I've been lurking for a while, mind you), but I am buying SHV to support the developers, and anybody willing to invest in simulations.

There are too few game studios out there who devote time and energy to simulations, and all of them deserve support IMO (given that you enjoy that kind of simulation, naturally). The 90s are over, and while there has been something of a resurgence of simulators in the east, the market is far from generous.

Ubi's DRM is unfortunate, and I hope it will fade away as the RoF one did, but campaigning to deny the sales that the devs depend on to survive is not the way to go IMO.

Thank you.

Itkovian

100% agree.

Welcome aboard! :yeah:

[pythos]

DRM will die. SH5 will Rock.

That is my decree.

[Ragtag]

Even though i am one of them giving Ubi a msg by holding off a buy for now, i'm not a fanatic shoving opinions down someones throat. That would be übi behavior ;)
Please close this thread!

[martes86]

IMO, this thread goes too far. Giving your opinion is one thing, and openly organizing massive boycott is another (with which, for the moment, I don't agree). And I think there was some moderator directive against it.

Also, punching those of us who are buying it (for whatever reason, which can be very different from one person to another in some cases) isn't giving your cause a good press around here either. :nope:

[Heretic]

When a movement starts demanding loyalty tests, that movement has gone off the rails. What started as a consumer education effort has morphed into a jihad. This is no longer a movement to give people information to make an informed buying decision. This is a organized movement to pressure people to comply with their demands and harass and insult those who refuse to knuckle under to their demands. They're bullies, plain and simple, and I'm not going to give in to them.

[rcjonessnp175]

we should just start a case of beer thread for the modders as theyll once again save this series hats of to the modders and wish Dave was here to get his hands on this puppy.

Jonesy:rock:

[TDK1044]

I hope that the game succeeds, and that at some point Ubisoft removes the necessity to be connected to the internet in order to play it. At that point, I will purchase it. In the meantime, I wish the members who will be purchasing it well. :)

[Méo]

What started as a consumer education effort has morphed into a jihad. This is no longer a movement to give people information to make an informed buying decision. This is a organized movement to pressure people to comply with their demands and harass and insult those who refuse to knuckle under to their demands.

Once again Heretic, Well said! :up:

[Hitman]

When a movement starts demanding loyalty tests, that movement has gone off the rails. What started as a consumer education effort has morphed into a jihad. This is no longer a movement to give people information to make an informed buying decision. This is a organized movement to pressure people to comply with their demands and harass and insult those who refuse to knuckle under to their demands. They're bullies, plain and simple, and I'm not going to give in to them.

I agree with that. I won't buy SH5 as long as the DRM is there, but anyone is free to do whatever they want. No loyalties owed to anyone, the less so in your buying preferences :down:

[mookiemookie]

When a movement starts demanding loyalty tests, that movement has gone off the rails. What started as a consumer education effort has morphed into a jihad. This is no longer a movement to give people information to make an informed buying decision. This is a organized movement to pressure people to comply with their demands and harass and insult those who refuse to knuckle under to their demands. They're bullies, plain and simple, and I'm not going to give in to them.

Great post. I never responded well to bullies when I was little. When they shoved me, I was the type to see red and shove back. I still take the same approach today.

[jimimadrid]

DRM will die. SH5 will Rock.

That is my decree.

100% my opinion. I will buy it.

[Buddahaid]

I once bought some milk that was spoiled, I'm not buying any more milk until they remove the DRM. :D

I've already purchased the game and am really looking forward to the new interface since it hasn't changed much from the beginning of time. I may not like it, but that's for me to decide. :up:

[Gunnodayak]

Sometimes I have a feeling of embarrassment for being the member of this forum, all this SH5 frenzy (pro or against) had left me a sour taste about the way most people here can react to such an insignificant thing, and I feel sorry that such an amount of energy is being invested in nothing. In plain nothing.

[morttheslayer]

Buying a game with "unnacceptable" DRM constrictions is a personal choice.

It's a free market.

I'm not buying cos I don't like it (DRM internet connection) - and can't make me. I require freedom to install uninstall as I see fit without the vagaries of a company/server that might not be around in a year or two dictating how I use what I bought - it's not a bloody firearm!! its a game.

My own view and my own choice --- All the Best Mort

[Bilge_Rat]

http://www.selebritiz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/run-like-hell.jpg




c'mon...preorder...you know you want to....:arrgh!:

[theluckyone17]

Do what you want to do.

I'm a staunch opponent of OSP. But I am not going to strong arm others into not purchasing Ubisoft's products solely on the basis of OSP's inclusion. Stand my ground and state my stance, yes. Pressure and bully someone who would otherwise have purchased SH5, no.

[Nisgeis]

When people who are buying a game are compared to people who collaborated with the Nazis, you know something's gone wrong.

[Safe-Keeper]

1. Like it or not, this game is made for the wider audience. It's not for us.
2. Therefore, it doesn't matter much to UBI at this point whether we buy it.
3. Either way, the best -the only- way to prevent increasingly strict and invasive anti-piracy measures (not to mention more and more games for the consoles and less to none for the PC) is to stop pirating games. I honestly don't understand what part of that is so hard for people to get.

Its so simple.

1) Buy the game
2) Download the crack
3) Play with no connection

Follow the steps and be happy.Wow. If that's not skating close to the line, I don't know what is.

[Fincuan]

Its so simple.
1) Buy the game
2) Download the crack
3) Play with no connection
Follow the steps and be happy.

A small problem with that approach:
Ubi still gets your money, which is ultimately all they care about. The only way to affect their decisions is via their wallet. Meanwhile pirates and some legitimate customers will happily download the crack and live DRM-free. Kind of beats the purpose of DRM in the first place...

[Iron Budokan]

Haha, even I don't agree with this tactic and you know what I think about SH5.

If someone wants the game they should buy it. Period. They don't have to hold off on that just to make a tactical statement to insure blowback on Ubi.

The game will do that for itself, prove itself or not, when it comes out, for good or ill.

[Nisgeis]

Ubi still gets your money, which is ultimately all they care about. The only way to affect their decisions is via their wallet.

Yeah, but the trouble with that is that sales of SH5 will be like a handful of sand, compared to a huge dumper truck full of sand for AC2. There's also nothing to compare the sales against for SH5, but there is for AC2 - consoles. All the suits will see for SH5 is SH2 sold reall well, SH3 sold well, SH4 didn't sell well, SH5 didn't sell well either... interest in the genre is dead. They won't see DRM or bugs as a factor. I'm not buying AC2, as that's where the damage to Ubi's wallet will be the most extreme and there's no way I'm losing my progress if the net dies. In fact, I may even not buy two or there copies, just to teach them a lesson.

Most people who are going to buy the game won't have been ever been to these forums.

[Alex]

@ Uber Gruber : Only a handful of possible SH5 buyers are currently aware of the problems that DRM is going to create. A majority of players will certainly buy this game on impulse, cause the pictures on the game's cover look fine, without even knowing what is a U-Boot, in fact. :hmm2:
Ubi would give in to boycott pressure if it was general, I mean, if and only if every possible buyer refrains from purchasing the game until it gets a patch disabling DRM.

And as even those who know what DRM is can't come to an agreement on what to do following SH5's release, I don't think a solution to this problem will be found.

[Vikinger]

I find it quite offending to propose people to boycott the game and nearly say that thos that are gona buy the game are "quislings".

I will buy it, I will play it, and i will enjoy it.

I dont care if there is a DRM and if i need to stay online to play the game. I see it as just another online game i play even if its a single player game.
Ive been a fan of the game serie since the first game came and this wont hold me back.
In fact i really look forward to a new episode of SH.

[Grey_Raven75]

Not a big fan of the DRM, but I like sub sims more, so I'll be buying it as soon as it comes out.

[Mud]

This kinda posts makes me wanna buy just to piss people off, and my computer can't even run it.

I'll decide for myself thank you very much.

Mud

[Turbografx]

Dude there are other ways to support Subsim by donating instead of paying for a crappy game. Ubi has lost me in there last crap game there putting out. There not getting my support. If that means this is there last SH game so be it. I didn't ask for this to happen. They didn't listen to there fans. They don't care about us, why should I care about them.

You want to help neal. Support by donating.

Neal though.. you may need to broaden your game selections in the future since ubi's gone wako... :up:


This is how I feel.

Why should the community feel some sort of obsessive loyalty to a franchise which:
1. We pay for in the first place.
2. May no longer meet our desires/expectations.
3. Doesn't care about what this community thinks.

[msxyz]

If Subsim is an indication of people stance on the DRM issue, I think SH5 sales will suffer.

No need to incite people not to buy them. As a consumer you vote with your wallet and half of the potential customers turning away is a huge fiasco for any company. HEck, even one third would be a big blow to Ubi's ego.

Let the sales figures speak for themselves.

Me? I won't buy until a proper, "official" patch is out removing DRM. This might mean never. I don't care. SH3 with the community mods is good enough for me.

[AVGWarhawk]

@ Uber Gruber : Only a handful of possible SH5 buyers are currently aware of the problems that DRM is going to create. A majority of players will certainly buy this game on impulse, cause the pictures on the game's cover look fine, without even knowing what is a U-Boot, in fact. :hmm2:
Ubi would give in to boycott pressure if it was general, I mean, if and only if every possible buyer refrains from purchasing the game until it gets a patch disabling DRM.



Alex, I think you assume to much.

[flakmonkey]

The silent hunter series IS the community, without a game to congregate around the community ceases to exist, despite any differences we may have with ubi over DRM i think its important we still support the series, after all its all we have!

[KV]

If 61% of the voting subsim community have voted against buying till DRM is removed then surely the other 39% of the subsim community should support their fellows by at least holding off from purchase for a few weeks so that UBI get the hint ?

That's like saying if 61% were voting for a presidential candidate, the rest of the population should do the same for the best of the nation. It didn't work in the Soviet Union or anywhere else, so why would it be logical now? I am not going to buy the game now since I do not even have the free time you need to be able to play it properly, but I will in the future. One thing I most definitely will not do is buy it because someone says it is for some "greater good".

[Nisgeis]

Let the sales figures speak for themselves.

What will make them attribute poor sales to DRM, as opposed to lack of interest?

[BigBANGtheory]

I will respect the suggestion made by the OP, it may well be the numbers or volume of players are too small to be noticed but it is a point of principle worth supporting IMHO.

Publishers like to divide and conquer and assume all gamers/consumers are just looking out for themselves, I'd like to change that perception.

[Apos]

I wont buy now SHV cos of 3 reasons:
- too high price for stock game,
- where SH game series is going - casual/arcade area,
- SHV need some good mods and fixes/patches, then i start thinking about buying it

Im not big fan of DRM but it doesnt bother me.

[AVGWarhawk]

The silent hunter series IS the community, without a game to congregate around the community ceases to exist, despite any differences we may have with ubi over DRM i think its important we still support the series, after all its all we have!


Thats all right! Well said sir! :up:

[Schultzy]

I won't be buying it, as much as it pains me, but that is my decision. However, that's all it is; my decision. It's not done to further a cause or to emphasise an already laboured point.
I really do hope that UBI change their stance (doubtful I know), but I also hope that those who do buy it enjoy their purchase. :up:

[msxyz]

What will make them attribute poor sales to DRM, as opposed to lack of interest?

Focus groups, market surveys, opinion hunters scouting the comunity forums. I work in the field, I know what I'm talking about...

They might not admit it (ever heard of a public company admitting "sorry, we screwed" if not for avoiding legal charges?) and they might even go further and release a statement that they're terminating SH series due to poor interest in the public. But they will surely know what the real cause is.

Let Silent Hunter 5, Assassin Creed 2 be a reminder to the industry. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice and you may rot in hell :stare:

[Greentimbers]

I will buy it because I prefer the Atlantic theater. :salute:

[Nisgeis]

Focus groups, market surveys, opinion hunters scouting the comunity forums. I work in the field, I know what I'm talking about...

They might not admit it (ever heard of a public company admitting "sorry, we screwed" if not for avoiding legal charges?) and they might even go further and release a statement that they're terminating SH series due to poor interest in the public. But they will surely know what the real cause is.

There's just as much complaining about the game and rivets not being in the right place and the crew animations being poor and the game only being to 1943 and there only being one type of boat and there only being... as there is complaining about DRM, so the only way for them to test how much of it is due to DRM is to release a DRM free version and watch how the sales pick up.

[Q3ark]

If 61% of the voting subsim community have voted against buying till DRM is removed then surely the other 39% of the subsim community should support their fellows by at least holding off from purchase for a few weeks so that UBI get the hint ?

So if you buy then you're working against the majority of subsim members.

I accept this is a controversial stance.....but surely it would be nice to help support your community ?

Cheers, UG

By purchasing a game that interests me I am "working against the majority of subsim members" Really?? Well forgive me if I don't lose any sleep over that :doh:

[msxyz]

There's just as much complaining about the game and rivets not being in the right place and the crew animations being poor and the game only being to 1943 and there only being one type of boat and there only being... as there is complaining about DRM, so the only way for them to test how much of it is due to DRM is to release a DRM free version and watch how the sales pick up.

Not necessarily. Professional opinion hunters are trained to ignore the ever present people nitpicking defects in every product they happen to buy. People complaining about small defects may be vocal but hardly have any statistical relevance.

Even before committing resources to develop SH5 you can be sure UbiSoft studied past sales and the market interest for another sequel.

They're expecting to move a certain amount of copies of SH5. If the amount of copies sold is well below expectations and cannot be explained by indipendent or external causes (economic downturns, competition offering a better product, shift of interest in the consumers due to unforseen factors, etc...) they will start to look for the cause elsewhere.

Software houses even have some pretty accurate data on how many pirate copies are circulating of a certain game.

If DRM will scare people away or boost the demand for a pirated copy of SH5, Ubisoft will know it. Trust me. :)

[piri_reis]

Software houses even have some pretty accurate data on how many pirate copies are circulating of a certain game.

If DRM will scare people away or boost the demand for a pirated copy of SH5, Ubisoft will know it. Trust me. :)

:doh: Pretty accurate data on number of pirated copies? How would they do that?

Also Ubisoft determining the causes of demand or lack of it, is pretty remote, with the intelligence of reading their consumers and the market, they have shown so far..

[jerm138]

:yawn:
I won't be buying it right off the bat, but not only because of DRM.

Having said that, I think that the OP has fallen off his rocker, as have many of the doomsdayers acting like SH5 and its DRM will be the end of the world for them.

I got into the game late (just a few months ago). I liked SH3 for the short time I played it, and REALLY like SH4. I can't understand getting emotionally upset that the new version doesn't suit you. Just don't play it. Obviously you like the other versions or you wouldn't be here, so just keep playing them. But don't try to rally other players to NOT buy the game just because YOU don't like it. There are much more appropriate ways to get your point across.

I'm amazed that the moderators tolerate boycott talk like this. :nope:

[longdog499]

The silent hunter series IS the community, without a game to congregate around the community ceases to exist, despite any differences we may have with ubi over DRM i think its important we still support the series, after all its all we have!

I, along with many others supported SSI and bought SH1 which presumably encouraged UBI to buy the franchise and publish SHII which in my opinion was a real dog but nevertheless I supported them again by buying SHIII which the modders turned into a classic and encouraged me to support Ubi again by buying the dissapointing SHIV which was again saved by the modding community and convinced me to go for SHV which UBI have now made impossible for me with the DRM/permanent internet connection issue. I feel like a wounded crewman being left behind by his friends becuse he can no longer keep up.:wah:

[Highbury]

I'm amazed that the moderators tolerate boycott talk like this. :nope:

Not that long ago we were all told that it is ok to be against DRM and it is ok to say so, it was however NOT ok to call on the Subsim membership for any form of boycott.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=160798

[Brag]

I, along with many others supported SSI and bought SH1 which presumably encouraged UBI to buy the franchise and publish SHII which in my opinion was a real dog but nevertheless I supported them again by buying SHIII which the modders turned into a classic and encouraged me to support Ubi again by buying the dissapointing SHIV which was again saved by the modding community and convinced me to go for SHV which UBI have now made impossible for me with the DRM/permanent internet connection issue. I feel like a wounded crewman being left behind by his friends becuse he can no longer keep up.:wah:

We haven't left you behind. Nor all the rest of the people who are hurt by DRM. :salute::salute::salute:

Please sign the petition @

No to Ubisoft DRM Petition (http://www.petitiononline.com/ew15dl94/petition.html)

[jazman]

When a movement starts demanding loyalty tests, that movement has gone off the rails. What started as a consumer education effort has morphed into a jihad. This is no longer a movement to give people information to make an informed buying decision. This is a organized movement to pressure people to comply with their demands and harass and insult those who refuse to knuckle under to their demands. They're bullies, plain and simple, and I'm not going to give in to them.

The OP makes an argument that is novel here. I've seen lots of calls around here to support subsimming by buying the game; this is the first I've seen to support subsimming by NOT buying the game. (What is typical is the call to oppose DRM by not buying the game.) He hasn't introduced any loyalty test, he has just inverted it.

Calling him a bully leading a jihad is just plain silly, and way overblows his stature.

[Alex]

@ AVG : I sincerely hope you're right, and that what I assumed is wrong. :up:

[HundertzehnGustav]

in before lock!:yeah:

... do not temll me what to do... will put me against you, no matter what my stance is on the subject at hand.

support the community by creating mods for SHIII and IV! Or donate to neal!

[PL_Andrev]

This SH series (and DC I hope) will be developed again if many copies od SH5 is sold...

[jazman]

The silent hunter series IS the community, without a game to congregate around the community ceases to exist, despite any differences we may have with ubi over DRM i think its important we still support the series, after all its all we have!

Are those of us who don't buy the new game traitors to the community?

[HundertzehnGustav]

you cannot support a "series"!

they promise nothing! not even the removal of the online requirement!

and people here are hoping for a DCII "if only "enough" copies are sold?

THIS IS A FEKKN WAKEUP CALL:!
THEY
WANT
YOUR
MONEY
AND
PUT
YOU
ON
A
CHAIN
AND
PROMISE
NOTHING
AT ALL


damn.

but okay, go ahead, waste your hard earned cash.

[Highbury]

but okay, go ahead, waste your hard earned cash.

Ok I will :up: I'm sorry me spending my money upsets you so much you have to type in caps. Wait, no I am not.. I feel sorry for people who get so worked up over how other spend their gaming money.


Most popular mantra of the anti-DRM crowd is "I paid for it with my money and don't want them telling me how or when I can use it". Fair enough. So what makes these people feel they can tell us how or where to use our money? "hey pot, this is the kettle. guess what? You're black!"

[Méo]

This is how I feel.

Why should the community feel some sort of obsessive loyalty to a franchise which:
1. We pay for in the first place.
2. May no longer meet our desires/expectations.
3. Doesn't care about what this community thinks.

1. I don't get what you mean, but 50$ these days for a new game is not that bad.

2. Maybe it's because your desires/expectations are too high for a simulation that can sell around 250 000 copies worldwide as opposed to other game that can sell around 9 000 000...

3. I would like to hear what Neal has to say about it.. when the lead designer posted around 800 posts here (he must be reading too, and at least 2 other members of the dev team are members here), when he assisted to the last 2 subsim meeting, when he gave privileged info to this community. Of course they cannot ONLY please us...

When people who are buying a game are compared to people who collaborated with the Nazis, you know something's gone wrong.

Choosing to not purchase a $50 consumer product does not make you the moral equivalent of Nelson Mandela.
+1

[Méo]

... do not temll me what to do... will put me against you

you cannot support a "series"!


:shifty:

[HundertzehnGustav]

Its just a wakeup call afterall.
go ahead, do as you please.
But dont come crying about servers down for gods sake!

[j_o_nn_y]

Well I bought all the Silent hunter games straight away when they came out. But I am not going to buy this one until people say it is great, can be modded and even then I might not even buy it because of the DRM issue. If people keep on buying these games, Ubisoft will think its been the right move and DRM is going to be here forever with every game you are going to buy from Ubisoft including future Silent Hunter games. This would incourage other games companies to follow suite and so all your future game purchases will have draconian DRM and you will be slaves to always online play where save games get lost. etc. (This is my personal opinion and not because of the first post).

[Méo]

Don't worry, IF it happens, I'll complain to Ubi, not to you.

But dont come crying about servers down for gods sake!

I could tell you not to come crying when there is no U-boat simulation that fits perfectly to your likings..

[Nisgeis]

But I am not going to buy this one until people say it is great, can be modded and even then I might not even buy it because of the DRM issue.

So you're OK with modders buying it?

[HundertzehnGustav]

Don't worry, IF it happens, I'll complain to Ubi not to you.



I could tell you not to come crying when there is no U-boat simulation that fits perfectly to your likings..

dont worry. it already exists. at least a whole lot better than what the Ubi Execs want to poison me with this time. Pity for the uninformed customer that doesnt read the 0.05inch high text on the box.

[j_o_nn_y]

Maybe they wont let you play the game through their server if you have modded it?.

[Méo]

Pity for the uninformed customer that doesnt read the 0.05inch high text on the box.

A permanent internet connection is required to play the gameWe can see it clearly on the cover: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002PAIPQO?tag=cyberknight&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=B002PAIPQO&adid=1RR6DSR2QYP06KRB0QN1&

[Méo]

Maybe they wont let you play the game through their server if you have modded it?.

He's a member of the dev team:

You can transform the entire content of the game to your liking and it will still work.

You can mod the dynamic campaign, the missions, objectives, ships (AI <yes, for the first time>, characteristics, textures), crew (AI, dialogs <including sounds>, abilities, appearance), game commands, the interface, keyboard layout, graphic shaders.

You'll have the old tools (Mission Editor) plus some new ones, we hope you'll enjoy. That's exactly the same tools the team used to create the game in the first place.

The game is even more mod-able than SH3 and SH4. The entire team has gone to great lengths to give you an open ground to work your magic, so the end result is a game you enjoy, a game that can proudly sit in the hall of fame of submarine simulations, a game that sets a new standard for submarine games to come.

regards,
M.

[AVGWarhawk]

Maybe they wont let you play the game through their server if you have modded it?.


I think that point was cleared up a week or so ago. Mods should not make any difference IIRC.

[Schunken]

What choice I have?

I must buy, its just a curse....

I love Simulation! I get hooked on the Commodore 64 with Microprose Gunship! It was have crappy graphics with 1 Frame per second and I play it like mad. Also start with Sublogics Flight Simulator...also crappy graphics and real poor frames....

But since I was child I keep my imagination, my Phantasy....

Sure I do not like DRM, sure there will be bugs.

But Silent hunter was have it and I love it, SH2 also followed by SH3 and SH4 was real bad in the start....

But every SH game I play longer than Mass Effect, GTA4, Call of Duty 4 and who they all called....

If you loose your imagination and phantays ability and allow yourself not to fall into this simulated worlds.... you will not find pleasure....

But on the other side maybe I just be be mad:hmmm:....who else have 1300 flight hours collected in a virtual airline???... I wonder where I take all this time...


Andreas

[trenken]

Im not going to cry about DRM. Ill buy the game, I dont care what the rest of you do. While you all sign useless petitions, ill be enjoying the game. I wonder who will be having more fun?

[JU_88]

If 61% of the voting subsim community have voted against buying till DRM is removed then surely the other 39% of the subsim community should support their fellows by at least holding off from purchase for a few weeks so that UBI get the hint ?

So if you buy then you're working against the majority of subsim members.

I accept this is a controversial stance.....but surely it would be nice to help support your community ?

Cheers, UG

I dont like the DRM but im still buying it, for which I make no apology to you or anyone.

And Uber, I dont appreciate your attempt at manipulation. Please dont feed us the 'with us or against us' and 'moral majority' BS.
If 61% told you jump off a bridge would you do it?

For the record, even before the DRM you seemed to HATE SHV with a passion, (bashing it at every given opportunity) so much so that I am truley amazed that you are still around :hmmm:
Everyones entitled to voice his opinion and all, but my god, for the sake of us 39%... give it a rest man. :timeout:

Lasty, I fail to see how boycotting the last surviving subsim franchise is 'helping the community'.
So we do our bit for the honest PC gamer vs the OSP weilding Publisher, fine - but at what cost I wonder?

[Buddahaid]

I wont buy now SHV cos of 3 reasons:
- too high price for stock game,
- where SH game series is going - casual/arcade area,
- SHV need some good mods and fixes/patches, then i start thinking about buying it

Im not big fan of DRM but it doesnt bother me.

I love the "I will not buy it until it's patched/modded" crowd. Sure, let the modders buy it, fix/alter it, put their money and time into it, and then buy it at a discount and complain about the mods not being perfect. Too bad modders can't charge for their efforts. We'd really know how expensive it is then. :o

[tomfon]

Just a few months ago a guy (i don't remember his nickname and frankly speaking i'm too tired to search for it now) complained about the unfinished state of stock SH3 and 4 and argued that it is a waste of time to bother with these games. In fact, he said that these games are not even worth modding them. He also added that he would stop playing them. Back then, a lot of people disagreed with him saying, ''hey, you don't like it? Then don't play it.''

Given that the DRM issue has been discussed extensively, a lot and various opinions have been heard, i think it's time to adopt a similar attitude. I'm not suggesting to jump on everyone who says sthg like ''DRM is bad (because of this or that), don't buy it!''. I'm just saying that these kind of threads (nothing personal with the OP) and posts are ''déjà vu'' and the whole matter has become obsolete. Please, don't give me the usual argument that everyone is entitled to his/her opinion 'cause despite the fact that this holds true, we usually tend to confuse things and therefore blabber instead. Just a thought.

[FIREWALL]

I love the "I will not buy it until it's patched/modded" crowd. Sure, let the modders buy it, fix/alter it, put their money and time into it, and then buy it at a discount and complain about the mods not being perfect. Too bad modders can't charge for their efforts. We'd really know how expensive it is then. :o

Even payware mods get hacked. :yep:

[HundertzehnGustav]

i wouldnt mind spending 200 balls for a GOOD-AS-GETS subsim. honestly not.

I play such games for years, and the cheap price does not reflect the true intellectual and intercultural value, history lessions and interest generated in a given subject.

[msxyz]

:doh: Pretty accurate data on number of pirated copies? How would they do that?

Also Ubisoft determining the causes of demand or lack of it, is pretty remote, with the intelligence of reading their consumers and the market, they have shown so far..

They extrapolate data from torrent sites traffic, p2p networks, etc... There are some firms which specialyze in this kind of research. It's all based on guestimates but surveying (and statistics, in general) is not an exact science. But you're able to tell the % of people playing a pirated game versus those buying the original.

To me, this whole DRM issue seems like a convenient excuse to bail off the PC market or, at worst, a stupid decision imposed by some executive who doesn't know what he's selling and his customers. The industry is full of these crap spouting, short sighted, self confident a**holes.

[himlaviz]

I survived the NGE, I can take this as well.

I am going to buy Silent Hunter 5, because I want to support the development of sub games, whatever it's more or less simulation but SH5 do seem to be taking am interesting approach to playing the captain.

Forums?
Well, it brings out the best and worst in the community sometimes I miss the good old days when you would read about a game in some computer/game magazine or just see it in the shop and buy it. Play it for what it was and don't hack it to pieces and loose the magic.

Now it's a year or more waiting and over analyzing the game and build up expectations and feel ripped off in the end...

[jwilliams]

DRM will die. SH5 will Rock.

That is my decree.

OSP will only die if it fails....

If pirates fail to crack OSP then its here to stay. unless this new DRM impacts sales.

Sure they may release a patch that allows you to play offline but thats only after SH5 is no longer selling (and simulation games seem to last awhile, due to lack of competion). they arnt going to release the patch if SH5 is selling well because then that just go's against the idea of OSP.

[jazman]

I didn't find the original post to be bizarre or out of line or like some Draconian edict demanding Scorched Earth and Death to Traitors. It could lead to some good discussion of what it means to support this community. We might realize that what holds this community together is thinner even than water. Some of the reaction, though, is downright hysterical. I especially like the references to "Nazis" and "Jihad" and "bullying." Good reactionary entertainment.

[Gunnodayak]

Just a few months ago a guy (i don't remember his nickname and frankly speaking i'm too tired to search for it now) complained about the unfinished state of stock SH3 and 4 and argued that it is a waste of time to bother with these games. In fact, he said that these games are not even worth modding them. He also added that he would stop playing them. Back then, a lot of people disagreed with him saying that, ''hey, you don't like it? Then don't play it.''

Given that the DRM issue has been discussed extensively and a lot and various opinions have been heard, i think it's time to approach a similar attitude. I'm not suggesting to jump on everyone who says sthg like ''DRM is bad (because of this or that), don't buy it!''. I'm just saying that these kinds of threads (nothing personal with the OP) and posts are ''déjà vu'' and the whole matter has become tiring. Please, don't give me the usual argument that everyone is entitled to his/her opinion 'cause despite the fact that this holds true, we usually tend to confuse things and therefore blabber instead. Just a thought.
Finally, after dozens of replies to this thread, a one that can be considered as a good conclusion ...

[tonschk]

if you prevent or hold back purchases of sh-5 you could actually hurt the subsim community and submarinse simulations as a whole more then you actually realize.




The next week I will go to buy the :yeah: Silent Hunter 5 :up: Game to support the Subsim Community :rock:

[Turbografx]

1. I don't get what you mean, but 50$ these days for a new game is not that bad.

2. Maybe it's because your desires/expectations are too high for a simulation that can sell around 250 000 copies worldwide as opposed to other game that can sell around 9 000 000...

3. I would like to hear what Neal has to say about it.. when the lead designer posted around 800 posts here (he must be reading too, and at least 2 other members of the dev team are members here), when he assisted to the last 2 subsim meeting, when he gave privileged info to this community. Of course they cannot ONLY please us...




1. I was not saying the game was too expensive, I meant that since we are paying for the thing, it is not like they are doing us a favor. We don't have to feel obligated to the franchise like we've been give some kind of generous gift. We don't owe them anything, it is a balanced transaction.
On a side note, I do actually think $60 is too much when I consider the value compared to games I want from AGEOD, Paradox or DCS.

2. Other games manage to meet my expectations, none of which are major blockbusters. I have enjoyed every single title from AGEOD and titles from Paradox, SES, HPS, MMG, OBD, Laminar, MicroProse, SSI etc etc etc have all met my uber desires/expectations. Some of those companies (HPS, SES) probably only sell a few thousand copies.
In fact, I would wager that all of those had a smaller budget than SHV. It is not that UBI didn't have enough money or wouldn't get enough sales, it is that they are heading in a different direction and are just not as dedicated as a specialized software company, one that produces only a certain genre.

3. The devs care, at least a little, this is clear from their previous work. The suits who OWN the franchise don't though. Like any good business people they are interested in making as much money for as long as possible. If that means following popular market trends at the expense of development time, original principles and the core community, so be it.

[Nisgeis]

Some of the reaction, though, is downright hysterical. I especially like the references to "Nazis" and "Jihad" and "bullying." Good reactionary entertainment.

I think you are misunderstanding. The comparison was made that those who were buying this game were the same as Nazi supporters. That is not something that was made up in this thread by those objecting to the OP... it was an actual comparison made to stop people buying the game. People are objecting to that and quite rightly I think.

[jazman]

I think you are misunderstanding. The comparison was made that those who were buying this game were the same as Nazi supporters. That is not something that was made up in this thread by those objecting to the OP... it was an actual comparison made to stop people buying the game. People are objecting to that and quite rightly I think.

No, you were the one, in post #35, to mention "Nazi" first. The OP never said anything about Nazi, in fact, no one did until you did:

When people who are buying a game are compared to people who collaborated with the Nazis, you know something's gone wrong.

Go read the OP again. There isn't even the word "collaborate" in there. In fact, YOU said it first.

[Heretic]

Jazman, a lot of stuff folks are fed up with are not specifically related to the text of the original poster. They're spread out in many other threads.

[Nisgeis]

No, you were the one, in post #35, to mention "Nazi" first. The OP never said anything about Nazi, in fact, no one did until you did:

Go read the OP again. There isn't even the word "collaborate" in there. In fact, YOU said it first.

I didn't say the OP mentioned it. I didn't say it first. It does help though if you are familiar with this particular issue, it does tend to invade lots of different threads and the arguments are never seperate and distinct. The inference was made in this thread:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=162331

I would point out the post, but it would of benefit to you to read the whole thread, to see how quickly an innocent thread went south. This thread is, I believe, a direct result of that thread.

So, here we go, the comparison to Nazi collaborators was made as an attempt to disuade people from buying the game. The people who are complaining about it are not making it up. Thanks.

[JU_88]

I didn't say the OP mentioned it. I didn't say it first. It does help though if you are familiar with this particular issue, it does tend to invade lots of different threads and the arguments are never seperate and distinct. The inference was made in this thread:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=162331

I would point out the post, but it would of benefit to you to read the whole thread, to see how quickly an innocent thread went south. This thread is, I believe, a direct result of that thread.

So, here we go, the comparison to Nazi collaborators was made as an attempt to disuade people from buying the game. The people who are complaining about it are not making it up. Thanks.

lol, well they can call me Nazi collaberating ubisoft fanboy poo poo face for all I care.
Im buying the game and if anyone here has a problem with that they can well.... piss off and mind there own business (to put it bluntly)

[Méo]

I do actually think $60 is too much when I consider the value compared to games I want from AGEOD, Paradox or DCS.

Well this is your point of view.

----

I'll show you mine:

Let's say I play an average of 10 hours each week for the next 3 years with 2 weeks of vacation per year.


10 hours/week x 50 weeks/year x 3 years = 1500 hours

60$/1500 hours = 0.04$/hour.

----

So approximately 0.04$ per hour, no big drama for me.

[SteamWake]

I'm not so inclined as to tell anyone wether or not to buy the product.

It is their decision.

I've made mine you make yours. Lets see where the chips fall.

[Apos]

I love the "I will not buy it until it's patched/modded" crowd. Sure, let the modders buy it, fix/alter it, put their money and time into it, and then buy it at a discount and complain about the mods not being perfect. Too bad modders can't charge for their efforts. We'd really know how expensive it is then. :o

I wrote in other topic that i'd rather pay modders for their version of SH than to Ubi.

[sabretwo]

:nope:

I just read this threat and my head is aching! :doh:

I personally agree with Uber's sentiments as one of the many without practical access to the Internet when I play games (basically one of the many that UBI decided to flip the bird at when designing their DRM). But this kind of post is bomb-throwing. Not cool in my book.

I think the decrease in sales will be self-evident without calling for a boycott or tossing names around.

[Philipp_Thomsen]

If you own the software, then you can use all the means you want to play the game. From the moment you buy it, it's YOURS, ergo its not illegal to use my approach.

They won't change their policies just cos we dont want to connect to the internet, they know we are easier to fold.

If a tree falls in your path while you're driving, will you start a war to remove the tree from the road, or will you drive around it and keep going?

I will drive around it.

It's not my problem to solve.

Specially if the tree was put in my way on purpose.

[JU_88]

If you own the software, then you can use all the means you want to play the game. From the moment you buy it, it's YOURS, ergo its not illegal to use my approach.

Nope, unfortunatley that is not the case - you own a license to use it as prescribed by the publisher and nothing more. What do think the license agreement is all about?
Hell the only way you can 'own' your software is to write it yourself.

[Lord Justice]

I'm not so inclined as to tell anyone wether or not to buy the product.

It is their decision.

Here Here. :yep: Now men, i shall push on, to avoid such friendly fire. :-? Bye your leave.

[jwilliams]

If you own the software, then you can use all the means you want to play the game. From the moment you buy it, it's YOURS, ergo its not illegal to use my approach.

They won't change their policies just cos we dont want to connect to the internet, they know we are easier to fold.

If a tree falls in your path while you're driving, will you start a war to remove the tree from the road, or will you drive around it and keep going?

I will drive around it.

It's not my problem to solve.

Specially if the tree was put in my way on purpose.

I think you will find that it is illegal to remove DRM (without the owners permition).

Digital rights management systems have received some international legal backing by implementation of the 1996 WIPO Copyright Treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIPO_Copyright_Treaty) (WCT). Article 11 of the Treaty requires nations party to the treaties to enact laws against DRM circumvention.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management

And as for owning the software that you bought.... think again.
what you buy is a licence to use the software.

THIS SOFTWARE IS LICENSED, NOT SOLD. BY INSTALLING, COPYING OR OTHERWISE USING THE GAME (DEFINED BELOW), YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU ARE NOT PERMITTED TO INSTALL, COPY OR USE THE GAME.You could always try this :-

Kitty agrees

most people never read the EULA. they just click Accept.
Who knows what your rights your giving up?
Anne Loucks made a little cardboard placque with a downward extension, put it over her keyboard, and by charmign her cat into walking over it, the placque pressed down on the space bar, agreeing to Adobe Reader's EULA. Her cat might not be a legal entity, but the fact of the matter is that she herself did not agree to the EULA, so technically, she shouldn't be covered by it. Right?http://www.osnews.com/story/21010/Can_Your_Cat_Agree_to_an_EULA_

:har:

[Platapus]

If 61% of the voting subsim community have voted against buying till DRM is removed then surely the other 39% of the subsim community should support their fellows by at least holding off from purchase for a few weeks so that UBI get the hint ?

Actually it was 61% of the people who chose to participate in an unscientific poll. Don't confuse that with 61% of the total population

So if you buy then you're working against the majority of subsim members.

And I should care about this for what reason? The opinions of the other people who post in no way influence my opinions. I respect other people's opinions, and expect people to equally respect mine. Considering someone who disagrees with a person group's opinion as "working against them" is, frankly, an immature and illogical attitude.

People should feel free to exercise their freedom as a consumer with respect to buying or not buying this game.

[JU_88]

Actually it was 61% of the people who chose to participate in an unscientific poll. Don't confuse that with 61% of the total population



And I should care about this for what reason? The opinions of the other people who post in no way influence my opinions. I respect other people's opinions, and expect people to equally respect mine. Considering someone who disagrees with a person group's opinion as "working against them" is, frankly, an immature and illogical attitude.

People should feel free to exercise their freedom as a consumer with respect to buying or not buying this game.



QFT -
I agree with you 100% :up:

[THE_MASK]

I said i wouldnt buy SH5 at the start of the debarcle but if SH5 doesnt drop out the game when disconnected then i dont have a problem .

[Onkel Neal]

I survived the NGE, I can take this as well.

I am going to buy Silent Hunter 5, because I want to support the development of sub games, whatever it's more or less simulation but SH5 do seem to be taking am interesting approach to playing the captain.

Forums?
Well, it brings out the best and worst in the community sometimes I miss the good old days when you would read about a game in some computer/game magazine or just see it in the shop and buy it. Play it for what it was and don't hack it to pieces and loose the magic.

Now it's a year or more waiting and over analyzing the game and build up expectations and feel ripped off in the end...

:sign_yeah: I feel the same way. I love discussing what is good about a sim and what could be better, and what is not good. But over the last 10 years, it seems like most people are primed to find faults with the game, jump to baseless conclusions, nitpick, and take things to extremes. So much angst! :-?

My prayer is that SH5 sells fairly well, they release a 2nd patch in 6 weeks and sales pick up, another patch in 3 months and they see a spike in sales, etc until they get the game completed. So, for the skeptics and protesters, they might be just what we need...if they will come onboard at exactly the right time.:D

PS: I'm also going to add to my wish list: if the DRM is cracked, Ubi should release a no-online patch immediately. If the DRM lasts 6 months, it would be nice if they would release a patch that means online for activation. I know they won't say this is their plan up front...and it may not be in their plans. But I hope.

[Capt.Warner]

What is DRM?Is this similar to starforce because that was a pain in SH3.:o

[Cptn_Enth]

I'm with you, Neal...here's to hoping that Ubi does the right thing. I'm looking forward to getting my copy on Tuesday and forming my own opinions on the product.

You're absolutely correct, though...forums these days typically end up places for people to go and "Tilt at Windmills", railiing about real and perceived errors and imperfections and discussions usually end up turning into a parody of the old SNL skit "POINT/COUNTERPOINT" where Dan Akroyd and Jane Curtain slug it out verbally over some pre-determined topic...Usually with Dan Akroyd starting his counter-argument with "Jane, you ignorant slut..."


Anyway, I'm looking forward to losing sleep over SH-V...I hope it will be worth it.

Regards,

[JU_88]

What is DRM?Is this similar to starforce because that was a pain in SH3.:o

DRM = Digital Rights managment, and yes Starforce was a type of DRM
but it was nothing compared to Ubis latest 'ball and chain' idea

[kapitan_zur_see]

I'm going to buy it on Tuesday and take a picture of me caressing it. I will do this simply to rub it in the faces of people like you who are trying to bully and shame me into not buying it.

I really wish you would all quit with this attitude. Letum's right - you're pissing people off. Me included also.

Don't forget to include me as well...
:shifty:
I'm not ten years old anymore to let people sort of dictate what I should do for a greater good that is but a matter of perspective

[Webster]

Not that long ago we were all told that it is ok to be against DRM and it is ok to say so, it was however NOT ok to call on the Subsim membership for any form of boycott.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=160798


that message was unstickied because we felt everyone had gotten the message about such talk.


this thread wasnt immediately closed because the members were doing a good job of self modderating such talk so it was allowed to run its course.

i think everyone has said their minds now so thread is closed.


please continue in the DRM thread if you feel the need to continue this