View Full Version : The Inevitable Woes of SH5
scrapser
02-23-10, 03:41 PM
This inconvenient truth keeps bringing me back to the question of why software companies keep going down the mass market/mass appeal road for everything they publish. Why can't one of them recognize the gaming industry, like any industry, has a life of its own and will mature/has matured? The games I bought 20 years ago and the circumstances under which I bought them no longer exist but the marketing approach is pretty much the same...produce a title...make lots of copies...and sell to as many people as possible.
This is really dumb. I have matured and so has the industry. Time for something new. How about announcing the intent to produce a highly detailed submarine simulation that people will have to pay big bucks for? I spent $1100 dollars for a high quality wide screen computer monitor last spring. I love it. I would spend big bucks for an incredible submarine simulation as well (or any other sim platform) and I bet there are many others out there who would do the same...enough to make the venture viable and profitable.
It's really bizarre none of the software companies have tried this approach.
Incidently, I used to have a program for my old Commodore 64 that would only work if you had a little hardware card plugged into one of the ports and served as a key. Why can't something like this be developed for modern software using a USB port...sort of like an identity card that cannot be duplicated?
Schunken
02-23-10, 03:46 PM
Its the same why toyota and Honda do not sell much hybrids compare too the gas-guzzler models....
The consumer demand 200hp for transport one man 3 miles to work :nope:
menkind is stupid and selfish, why game-publishers should be different?
Andreas
Its the same why toyota and Honda do not sell much hybrids compare too the gas-guzzler models....
The consumer demand 200hp for transport one man 3 miles to work :nope:
menkind is stupid and selfish, why game-publishers should be different?
Andreas
I am sorry, but there is just no love with those cars. :O: Give me a solid internal combustion car any day. :D
Besides, they are expensive and still very new.
You really can't compare the two IMHO. I would say that the answer is in money and investment / profit ratio. And since there is world crisis going on nowadays, put two and two together. Still, crisis alone isn't the reason, the money and fast development of the GPUs is dictating the rules here. In the old days, there wasn't much to see visually, so they had to focus on the story and quality.
scrapser
02-23-10, 04:05 PM
I am sorry, but there is just no love with those cars. :O: Give me a solid internal combustion car any day. :D
Besides, they are expensive and still very new.
You really can't compare the two IMHO. I would say that the answer is in money and investment / profit ratio. And since there is world crisis going on nowadays, put two and two together. Still, crisis alone isn't the reason, the money and fast development of the GPUs is dictating the rules here. In the old days, there wasn't much to see visually, so they had to focus on the story and quality.
I agree about the story and quality. There's something about having to use your imagination that cannot be denied...even toys for small children have this element and it's a proven factor in their development and growth. But I still think if a company put it out there that they are looking into developing what amounts to a mega detailed game or sim that will cost big bucks...people will sign on to the idea.
This would solve an enormous amount of problems as far as development is concerned. Obviously how to fund such an endeavor is the key but if nobody is even talking about it nothing is going to happen.
It is the same problem that is happening every where.
Professional managers.
That's it.
Professional managers are those types that have for the most part no other learned skill other than generating as much profit cutting as many corners as possible.
They are a result of consumerism
I have been harping how the airline industry is being run into the ground by people that have absolutely no place working with aircraft, pilots, mechanics, and so on.
The same goes for games.
That's my view and I am sticking to it, unless there is a view that is better:)
makman94
02-23-10, 04:09 PM
edited : Off topic post
This inconvenient truth keeps bringing me back to the question of why software companies keep going down the mass market/mass appeal road for everything they publish. Why can't one of them recognize the gaming industry, like any industry, has a life of its own and will mature/has matured? The games I bought 20 years ago and the circumstances under which I bought them no longer exist but the marketing approach is pretty much the same...produce a title...make lots of copies...and sell to as many people as possible.
This is really dumb. I have matured and so has the industry. Time for something new. How about announcing the intent to produce a highly detailed submarine simulation that people will have to pay big bucks for? I spent $1100 dollars for a high quality wide screen computer monitor last spring. I love it. I would spend big bucks for an incredible submarine simulation as well (or any other sim platform) and I bet there are many others out there who would do the same...enough to make the venture viable and profitable.
It's really bizarre none of the software companies have tried this approach.
War in the Pacific - Admiral's Edition: $70. You should have heard the wailing and gnashing of teeth. It was utterly unconscionable for a company to do such a thing! And this is for a hard-core niche of wargaming. If you play WitP, you know exactly what I mean.
If you think the DRM wailing has been bad, just imagine if UBI said, "SH6 will be $100." It doesn't matter if they ship it with three Swedish super-models.
Iron Budokan
02-23-10, 04:41 PM
Same thing happens in books, music, film, etc. Not just the gaming industry.
People have been spoon fed to believe that mediocrity is the new normal.
jwilliams
02-23-10, 04:46 PM
the only reason that we don't drive electric cars (imo...the best solution ...better than hybrids too ) is becuase some nations (and all know very good which nations these are...no need to mention them) are 'pushing' the whole world to use gas as a fuel.
you are right that the answer is on how much money are spent for investment...etc but we are not far away from the electric cars ...in fact we are really 'close' !
as for if electric cars are fast or not....look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVV9azx4OBA
ps: sorry for been off-topic and if my reply is not in theme with your comments (my english didn't allowed me to understand exactly your points here)
I dont see why electic cars are better than your normal petrol cars..... where does the electric to charge the cars come from???? carbon fuel power stations??
so how extra pollution does the power station have produce to charge up your electric car compared to the pollution created by petrol cars???
what was this thread abour again??? :06:
Why can't something like this be developed for modern software using a USB port...sort of like an identity card that cannot be duplicated?
It's called a dongle, and those are crackable as well. Usually in the form of a tray application that emulates the dongle.
scrapser
02-23-10, 06:18 PM
Back to my main point about the concept of developing a high end simulation. I think Steel Beasts is the closest to what I'm talking about. It seems to be working.
I'll ask this question. Does anyone here know or have the connections to pose this idea to the most likely company/developers who could give some feedback and maybe explain why or why not it would work? I'm not suggesting Ubisoft Romania but obviously they would be one of the groups of people to ask.
As far as I know, nobody has put this question directly to anyone during an interview. It's usually to talk about the title about to be released or the next E3 convention and what to expect.
Tarnsman
02-23-10, 07:02 PM
I agree with the OP, I would pay more for a high qulity simulation. Thats all I buy anyway gamewise, so instead of 4 or more a year in the old days its like maybe one. I dont really even look in the game section anymore because I know what is there already, and new stuff comes out so infrequently.
There are lots of days when Im stuck in the mall wishing I could find something to buy for myself for 50 bucks or so. The lady will drop a fifty in the time it takes me to get a sip of water and Im walking around empty handed.
As for electric cars... get a HEMI
Tarnsman
02-23-10, 07:05 PM
Also! How much money did the M$ Flight Simulator gang spend on their little addiction? Man M$ really dropped the ball on that one, I wonder what they were smoking. Or maybe they had stopped smoking. MMMM?
Back to my main point about the concept of developing a high end simulation. I think Steel Beasts is the closest to what I'm talking about. It seems to be working.
I'll ask this question. Does anyone here know or have the connections to pose this idea to the most likely company/developers who could give some feedback and maybe explain why or why not it would work? I'm not suggesting Ubisoft Romania but obviously they would be one of the groups of people to ask.
As far as I know, nobody has put this question directly to anyone during an interview. It's usually to talk about the title about to be released or the next E3 convention and what to expect.
My guess is that it wont work for the simple reason that its not as profitable (if at all)
1) Ubi want a silent hunter title to compete with other action/war games on offer from other publishers. (Silent hunter does have a bit of 'ive-never-tried-a-sub-game-before' novelty to its credit)
But the higher price tag could easily scare off potential new and casual gamers, I doubt that beefing up the price tag and selling to the hardcore minority would any where near compensate for those losses of sales to the broader market.
2) Also, to devlelop a sim to the detailed standards and quality expected by most simmers - the devs would would probably require near enough the development time and budget for all three of the last silent hunter games combined.
Not gonna happen.
Hanomag
02-23-10, 07:23 PM
How about announcing the intent to produce a highly detailed submarine simulation that people will have to pay big bucks for? I spent $1100 dollars for a high quality wide screen computer monitor last spring. I love it. I would spend big bucks for an incredible submarine simulation as well (or any other sim platform) and I bet there are many others out there who would do the same...enough to make the venture viable and profitable.
I dont know ..there are alot of tight wads out there.. just ask Neal how hard it is to get a 10 buck donation for his site.
I mean from what I have read in the forums most wouldnt spend a nickle to watch the Statue of Liberty scratch its ass.
OakGroove
02-23-10, 07:34 PM
I think Steel Beasts is the closest to what I'm talking about. It seems to be working.
I own SB Pro. It´s excellent. While SB Pro might "eventually" be financially worthwhile for ESim Games, it wouldn't be for UBI. They probably won't waste a second brainstorming on a serious simulation that caters "the few". Peanuts for them, the crumbs of the pie they leave for smaller companys. That's where our only hope is.
btw. DCS Black Shark is selling currently for 20 Eur, that's a serious siimulation as well. Genre-reference.
Turbografx
02-23-10, 09:29 PM
I dont know ..there are alot of tight wads out there.. just ask Neal how hard it is to get a 10 buck donation for his site.
I mean from what I have read in the forums most wouldnt spend a nickle to watch the Statue of Liberty scratch its ass.
Lol, guess I need a paypal account!
I own SB Pro. It´s excellent. While SB Pro might "eventually" be financially worthwhile for ESim Games, it wouldn't be for UBI. They probably won't waste a second brainstorming on a serious simulation that caters "the few". Peanuts for them, the crumbs of the pie they leave for smaller companys. That's where our only hope is.
btw. DCS Black Shark is selling currently for 20 Eur, that's a serious siimulation as well. Genre-reference.
Keep in mind Esims had the incentive of military contracts for their modern tank combat simulator. I doubt many governments would have much use for a WWII Uboat simulator with that level of fidelity.
I can't wait for DCS: A-10 to come out. ACHTUNG SPITFEU...WARZENSCHWEIN!
mookiemookie
02-23-10, 09:35 PM
But the higher price tag could easily scare off potential new and casual gamers, I doubt that beefing up the price tag and selling to the hardcore minority would any where near compensate for those losses of sales to the broader market.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Non-subsimmers are not going to spend $100 on a "oh what the heck, I'll give it a try" kind of purchase.
It's called a dongle, and those are crackable as well. Usually in the form of a tray application that emulates the dongle.Depends on how sophisticated the dongle is, with todays technology a USB device could be quite complicated, but mass produced quite cheap, I would pay around $200 for a good sim with this device, as long as there was no DRM crap!!:yep:
THE_MASK
02-23-10, 11:55 PM
How about something radical like the customer paying for DLC that includes hard code fixers because SH3/4 could have done with some more . I was willing to pay for DLC + patches for SH4 but they just abandoned the games as usual . SH5 will be a bug fest like SH3/4 or it will need hard coded things changed to suit hard core simmers . I bet a lot of people would pay extra if that was the only way to get what we want . The old argument that the fixers should be included free is correct and the first 3 or so should be free but after that why not give us payware .
OakGroove
02-24-10, 03:28 AM
Keep in mind Esims had the incentive of military contracts for their modern tank combat simulator. I doubt many governments would have much use for a WWII Uboat simulator with that level of fidelity.
I can't wait for DCS: A-10 to come out. ACHTUNG SPITFEU...WARZENSCHWEIN!
:D . Yepp, not unlike BIs mil contracts. VBS is available to the consumer market as well, at a hefty pricetag - few people own it. Can't wait for DCS A-10 either. :rock:
java`s revenge
02-24-10, 03:43 AM
Scrapser,
Have patience, we have 2 mods of the great TOMI in the wait.
If that comes out we have almost a perfect uboat sim.
scrapser
02-24-10, 10:10 AM
I've read all the replies so far and want to keep this idea alive if possible. Many have offered reasons why it wouldn't work but if you look carefully at some of your arguments you will see you are trying to fit the idea back into the existing marketing model. No disrespect but you need to remember this would be a completely new approach in both how the sim is developed and the market that would purchase it.
For example, it would not appeal to the casual gamer because the casual gamer is not the target audience, so they should not be considered as part of the formula. Yes, a few may catch wind of the project and buy into it but that's a happy side effect.
It's also an attempt to produce a highly detailed simulation that pays for itself and gives the developers/publisher a return for their effort but is not meant to be a money making machine like the console gaming market is set up. This is what is wrong with the current PC market. The publishing companies keep trying to produce titles that are essentially, "fire and forget" titles that make them money with minimal effort on their part. Get it?
The users are in it for the fun. The modders are in it for the challenge and pride of accomplishment. Developers are a mixed bag. I'm sure many of them are also gamers, but I bet that's the exception...not the rule. A project of this sort would have to be embraced by people who have the passion for the resulting end product and are not concerned simply with making money.
catar M
02-24-10, 10:59 AM
War in the Pacific - Admiral's Edition: $70. You should have heard the wailing and gnashing of teeth. It was utterly unconscionable for a company to do such a thing! And this is for a hard-core niche of wargaming. If you play WitP, you know exactly what I mean.
If you think the DRM wailing has been bad, just imagine if UBI said, "SH6 will be $100." It doesn't matter if they ship it with three Swedish super-models.
Welcome to my world most games are $100 AUD (Australian $) 1AUD = .90 US
and then developers and publishers wonder why there is piracy
jwilliams
02-24-10, 03:53 PM
How much are you prepared to pay for such a game???
how much will it cost to make this game???
how many copies do you expect to sell??
well the avage compuer dev cost is = $28 million
http://www.develop-online.net/news/33625/Study-Average-dev-cost-as-high-as-28m
SH4 sold 50k http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=161973 (post #3) so lets estimate you new game will sell 50k also.
28,000,000 / 50,000 = 560
then there would be other costs involved (disturbution, taxes, store profit etc.).
Are you realy goning to pay around $700 for this sub game???
and at that price i doubt that you'd sell 50k copies pushing the price even higher.
SH2: ~95K
SH3: ~90K
SH4: ~50K
Those are US numbers, worldwide is something like 2X those figures.
Just a little precision.
Heretic
02-24-10, 04:07 PM
well the avage compuer dev cost is = $28 million
That's the high end for a multi-platform game. The article you linked said a single platform game runs about $10 million. If so, that's quite a lot more than I'd have guessed for this game.
Your point remains valid. Do the math and you can come to no other conclusion.
Your point remains valid. Do the math and you can come to no other conclusion.
Yeah!
And that always make me chuckles when I see some comments...
The SH series had obviously never been a blockbuster.
jwilliams
02-24-10, 04:40 PM
That's the high end for a multi-platform game. The article you linked said a single platform game runs about $10 million. If so, that's quite a lot more than I'd have guessed for this game.
Your point remains valid. Do the math and you can come to no other conclusion.
Yeah my example isnt ment to be spot on... its just an example. (a guess-timate)
but everyone wants this new sub sim to be the `crem del la creme`.
look at dev cost for Gran turismo "$60 million" and gran turismo is single platform (PS3 only).
so what im getting at is making a high end sub sim for the `niche' market is just not profitable.
it's sad but true.:wah:
Heretic
02-24-10, 04:46 PM
I couldn't afford a nice car, but I could get a fixer-upper.
I couldn't afford a nice house, but I could get a fixer-upper.
They'll never make the sub sim of my dreams, so... well you get the idea.
jwilliams
02-24-10, 04:59 PM
I couldn't afford a nice car, but I could get a fixer-upper.
I couldn't afford a nice house, but I could get a fixer-upper.
They'll never make the sub sim of my dreams, so... well you get the idea.
And I beleive that "fixer-upper" is soon to be released. It's called SH5 :O:
FIREWALL
02-24-10, 04:59 PM
Why do they have to ?
Game consumers are like salivating dogs. :yep:
Will fight amongst themselves and...
Will take and bone or scrap tossed at them. :haha:
Heretic
02-24-10, 05:21 PM
Game consumers are like salivating dogs. :yep:
I had to change my shirt after viewing the new screenshots from that German mag. :D
scrapser
02-24-10, 06:45 PM
Yeah my example isnt ment to be spot on... its just an example. (a guess-timate)
but everyone wants this new sub sim to be the `crem del la creme`.
look at dev cost for Gran turismo "$60 million" and gran turismo is single platform (PS3 only).
so what im getting at is making a high end sub sim for the `niche' market is just not profitable.
it's sad but true.:wah:
I appreciate what is being argued here but again I must remind everyone the information, the research, is taken from the existing market dynamics. That $10 million estimate could very well include factors that would not come into play if a company were to take a radical approach to developing a high end sim.
And yes, I think it would be safe to say a sim of the caliber I am thinking of would likely cost at least $100 a pop if not much more. But for that money you would get something with incredible detail and realism and it would not be pushed out the door until it was at a stage where bugs were actually hard to find.
It may sound like a lot of money to spend on a title but think about this...how much would you be spending or have already spent on SH3, SH4, SH5, (SH6?)??? With a high end sim like I envision you would be buying the last sub sim you would ever need and if done right, the developer could make the core code portable to transfer as significant new technologies come available which at this point would mostly be graphics and AI.
I'm thinking way outside the box here and hope others will too.
Cptn_Enth
02-24-10, 07:01 PM
I will be making my opinions of SH5 when I receive my copy on Tuesday...as to whether or not it will remain installed on my hard drives or not remains to be seen. I am looking forward to seeing what it will do. But I digress...
I would personally pony up the dough for a title that had the depth and realism akin to some of the titles I cherished back in the early years of gaming...Like "Falcon IV" for example, whose 600+ page binder still occupies a prominent place on my bookshelf next to my desk. People used to tell me I was insane (my wife included) for buying a game whose instruction manual was bigger than the dictionary I had sitting on my desk at the time...but I couldn't find a game out there whose "realism" came as close as Falcon IV.
I wish there were more indy development houses like neoQB (Rise of Flight: The Great Air War) or DCS (Black Shark, A-10) produce Ultra-realistic simulators for their niches willing to step up to the plate and tackle our particular Genre, even earlier or parallel Genres (i.e.. Age of Fighting Sail, WWI, WWII Surface/Sub Fleet) with the same level of detail.
I'm fond of the old adage that states, "If you build a better Mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door." It's time that developers wake up and realize that people will pay extra for a quality product. Look at any Mercedes/BMW/Ferrari/Porsche/Jaguar/Rolls Royce dealer's price list and then look at the product they offer. There's a reason that the aforementioned vehicles command the pricetag they display...Developers need to stop churning out Yugos and start building the kind of titles that their core customers want...
I hope the analogy fits...
jwilliams
02-24-10, 07:41 PM
SH5 if i buy it will cost me $120 (collectors ed), about $90 US. we're not all lucky enough to live in the US where prices are lower.
I would pay more if the ultimate sim we want was developed. Im sure alot of people here would. :yeah: but is it enogh people to make this project profitable?
The publishers say that its not! otherwise we would be seeing these amazing sims.
Also you would need to find a publisher (and convincing them that this game would sell) to put the money up front.
Its alot of money and a long time of development with no return on the money!
navyvet
02-24-10, 07:48 PM
Scrapser is right on. I have a cad program that can only be run by plugging in a hasp into usb slot. Might make game slightly more expensive but would work. My program is six years old and still going.
scrapser
02-24-10, 08:12 PM
SH5 if i buy it will cost me $120 (collectors ed), about $90 US. we're not all lucky enough to live in the US where prices are lower.
I would pay more if the ultimate sim we want was developed. Im sure alot of people here would. :yeah: but is it enogh people to make this project profitable?
The publishers say that its not! otherwise we would be seeing these amazing sims.
Also you would need to find a publisher (and convincing them that this game would sell) to put the money up front.
Its alot of money and a long time of development with no return on the money!
These are the right kind of questions. Part of what I'm pursuing here is have these questions really been round tabled with some representative developers/publishers or have they remained hypotheticals? We will never know unless the initial research is done. It may turn out there are in fact enough people who would fund such a project.
And let me remind everyone, this is not meant to be a "retail" product...at least not during development. It would be something done almost like a contract that would pay for the end result and not fall into red ink. If afterwards it can be packaged and sold on the retail market then all the better but the point is to get the thing done right.
As things are now it's done backwards. We simmers keep waiting for the next release of Sim X and hope it meets our dreams which so far has always been only a partial fulfillment.
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