Dutch government falls

[DarkFish]

...again, for the 4th time in a row:shifty:
seems our prime minister simply cannot keep our cabinet together for four years, it's his 4th time in office, each time ended with a collapse of the government.
(4 times in less than 8 years - averages 2 years per government:-?)

Reason this time was whether our troops should be withdrawn from Afghanistan or not. Two years ago it was already decided our troops would leave end 2010. The NATO didn't like that however so they asked us to stay longer. The Christian Democratic Appeal (CDA) of our Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende finds our little NATO friends more important than his promises to the Dutch People, so suddenly he changes his mind and says with his prettiest smile "hey, let's stay in Afghanistan a little longer!"
The Labour Party (PvdA) of minister of finances Wouter Bos didn't quite agree with that and wanted to keep their promises with the Dutch People.
Eventually neither party could come to an agreement with the other, so after 15 hours of debating this morning our cabinet collapsed.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE61J02H20100220

[Oberon]

I blame Voldemort :yep:

[DarkFish]

I blame Voldemort :yep:NOOOooooooooooo
Don't mention that name ever again... Now he's coming to get us!:gulp:

[Skybird]

:06: - "Sssame procedure as last year, Miss Sophie?"

:stare: - "The sssame procedure as every year, James!"

The same old faces will pop up again after the elections. The only questionmark is Geert Wilders. But even if his party would win (German TV today says his party currently runs second place), I doubt he would be asked to form a coalition government as prime minister. Because, as he has been told by a Dutch court, it does not matter whether or not he can prove his statements at court, but what counts is that his views are illegal (says the court).

Good luck, Holland. Some more years of political degeneration and corruption at courts and nullifying of legal evidence, and you can truthfully announce "Land unter" even with the sea level staying where it currently is and Global Warming having turned into an Ice Age. We others are close on your heels anyway, heading into the same abyss .

[Jimbuna]

What sort of military presence does Holland have over there?

[Skybird]

What sort of military presence does Holland have over there?

1800 troops in Urusgan, in the south, a battled-over, dangerous and poor province. 21 Dutch casualties since 2006. the Dutch are engaged in fighting quite often, and frequently.

It is strongly assumed that the Conservatives encouraged NATO to send a letter demanding them to stay, so that the Conservatives would have a stronger "argument" against the Socialdemocrats who entered the coalition only by explicit mutual agreement to bring home the troops in 2010. In other words: that letter was an attempted trick, and the one coaltion party decided it does not wish to be overwhelmed by it. Getting the troops out was one of their promises during the election campaign.

[Jimbuna]

1800 troops in Urusgan, in the south, a battled-over dangerous province. 21 Dutch casualties since 2006.

It is strongly assumed that the Conservatives encouraged NATO to send a letter demanding them to stay, so that the Comnservazoves would have a stronger "agumkent" against the Socialdemocrats who entered the coaltiion only by explciit mutual agreement to bring home the troop in 2010. In other words: that letter was an attempted trick.

Rgr that... cheers sky :up:

Bloody politics :nope:

[Skybird]

I hate to be quoted. It reiterates how many typos I produce with my undisciplined speed-typing. :doh:

Corrected.

[DarkFish]

It is strongly assumed that the Conservatives encouraged NATO to send a letter demanding them to stay, so that the Conservatives would have a stronger "argument" against the Socialdemocrats who entered the coalition only by explicit mutual agreement to bring home the troops in 2010. In other words: that letter was an attempted trick, and the one coaltion party decided it does not wish to be overwhelmed by it. Getting the troops out was one of their promises during the election campaign.hmm, never heard that story yet, but politics are dirty enough for it to be true..

Besides, the US have been treating the Netherlands as their little pet dog, and we've been acting like one, sitting, barking and laying dead at command. Why do you think the last NATO Secretary General was a Dutchman? Not because De Hoop-Scheffer is such a great leader, but because Dutch politicians tend to lick the *sses of all important countries out there, with the US having the biggest one.
I hate to be quoted. It reiterates how many typos I produce with my undisciplined speed-typing. :doh:

Corrected.not quite, there's still the matter of "coaltion";)
where's Sailor Steve when you need him?:)

[Fish]

I hate to be quoted. It reiterates how many typos I produce with my undisciplined speed-typing. :doh:

Corrected.
I thought you were drunk. :woot:

[Rhodes]

...again, for the 4th time in a row:shifty:
seems our prime minister simply cannot keep our cabinet together for four years, it's his 4th time in office, each time ended with a collapse of the government.
(4 times in less than 8 years - averages 2 years per government:-?)


That's nothing, we had four goverments from 2000 to 2005!:yeah:

[krashkart]

We had a Darth Vader and his crew from 2000-2008.

Darth pictured on the right:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Rumsfeld_Bush_Cheney.jpg/220px-Rumsfeld_Bush_Cheney.jpg

Pax Americus! :up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rumsfeld_Bush_Cheney.jpg

[Tribesman]

Because, as he has been told by a Dutch court, it does not matter whether or not he can prove his statements at court, but what counts is that his views are illegal (says the court).

No matter how many times Skybird repeats it or how many different topics he can mention it in, it is still untrue.
Does Skybirds constant repetition of the untruth amount to mythomania?

[KeptinCranky]

Skybird, It does appear that our foreign minister made some verbal guarantees to the Nato chairman... there's also that whole business with our previous foreign minister being the Nato chairman before Rasmussen,...

there's no actual evidence but I doesn't take a genius to piece together that they promised Nato to stay longer and thought they could get away with a fait accompli. :nope: I'm glad they didn't, I'm not a big fan of the current (ex)government, I do not like the way they mix their christian mythology into their politics...I'm happy to see them sod off, I just wish they'd done so earlier.
All I hope is that we'll finally be rid of that ineffectual nitwit Balkenende, and hopefully have the next government entirely without the christian democrats.

There's local elections for city councils in two weeks, we'll see what happens there for an indication about who we Dutch feel takes the blame for this mess.

As to the mission our military's doing in Uruzgan province in Afghanistan, I think they've done some good over the years, I just hope it lasts, despite the casualties. I just feel that two important rules for any military action were ignored in agreeing to go there in the first place:
- "Never start a land war in asia" and
- if you have to fight, fight to win,

they should've gone in with everything and the kitchen sink to back them up, not leave the Leopard tanks and the artillery support behind... I've seen some references from other countries that call our troops "the beggar army". if there's ANY truth to that I feel the government responsible has a lot to answer for..

[Schroeder]

As to the mission our military's doing in Uruzgan province in Afghanistan, I think they've done some good over the years, I just hope it lasts, despite the casualties. I just feel that two important rules for any military action were ignored in agreeing to go there in the first place:
- "Never start a land war in asia" and
- if you have to fight, fight to win,

they should've gone in with everything and the kitchen sink to back them up, not leave the Leopard tanks and the artillery support behind... I've seen some references from other countries that call our troops "the beggar army". if there's ANY truth to that I feel the government responsible has a lot to answer for..
I have a deja vu! That sounds so familiar...even the part about Leopards.:o

[Jimbuna]

they should've gone in with everything and the kitchen sink to back them up, not leave the Leopard tanks and the artillery support behind... I've seen some references from other countries that call our troops "the beggar army". if there's ANY truth to that I feel the government responsible has a lot to answer for..

I have a deja vu! That sounds so familiar...even the part about Leopards.:o

There is a growing feeling (has been for a while now) in the UK that our troops are ill equipped for the role they have taken on.

There is a general election due this summer and I expect to see equipment suddenly materialise in the run up to the polls.

[Skybird]

Skybird, It does appear that our foreign minister made some verbal guarantees to the Nato chairman... there's also that whole business with our previous foreign minister being the Nato chairman before Rasmussen,...

He shouldn't have done that if the coalition was only entered by the Socialdemocrats under explicit mutual agreement that the troops would not stay beyond 2010. That promise to NATO thus boarders blackmailing, if not betrayal, then. the goivernment should have known they can't do that. In a coalition, you just can't run your head through the wall.


there's no actual evidence but I doesn't take a genius to piece together that they promised Nato to stay longer and thought they could get away with a fait accompli. :nope: I'm glad they didn't, I'm not a big fan of the current (ex)government, I do not like the way they mix their christian mythology into their politics...I'm happy to see them sod off, I just wish they'd done so earlier.
All I hope is that we'll finally be rid of that ineffectual nitwit Balkenende, and hopefully have the next government entirely without the christian democrats.
I would not cry for Balenende either, but I think you have around 20 parties, or did I misread that? Any new government likely will have 4 or 5 parties. I expect the Conservatives in it again, and Wilder's party. The socialdemocrats have fallen drastically in past months, but maybe they can regain some points due to their decision to hold their line in the Afghanistan row.


As to the mission our military's doing in Uruzgan province in Afghanistan, I think they've done some good over the years, I just hope it lasts, despite the casualties. I just feel that two important rules for any military action were ignored in agreeing to go there in the first place:
- "Never start a land war in asia" and
- if you have to fight, fight to win,

I often said the German govenrment is on a reality-disconnected ghost-flight in it's assessement of Afghanistan. I think that is true for all NATO, and thus: also for the Netherlands. the expectations of what can be acchieved are - bizarr.

they should've gone in with everything and the kitchen sink to back them up, not leave the Leopard tanks and the artillery support behind... I've seen some references from other countries that call our troops "the beggar army". if there's ANY truth to that I feel the government responsible has a lot to answer for..
Tell that the Germans and their inadequate "air mobility"! They still are stuck with just five transport helicopters, 2 or 3 usually are down for maintenance and repairs at any given time. That makes 2 or 3 active helicopters - for over 4000 soldiers acting in an area in the North half the size of Germany!

Since here are some Dutch assembled, this raises the chance for German being understood. This is an interview with Ruslan Auschew, who was Lieutenant Colonel at the time of the Soviet Afghanistan war, and later was president of Ingushetia.

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/international/afghanistan/Sowjetunion-Taliban-Terror-USA-Ruslan-Auschew;art15872,3027688

[Tribesman]

I expect the Conservatives in it again, and Wilder's party.
But Wilders can't speak, its illegal, how can he possibly campaign?
:har::har::har::har:

I expect the freedom party will do well in the next elections, then will follow the usual pattern of these populist nuts.
Fail to deliver on anything at all, rip themselves apart over exactly how much can be blamed on which immigrants without losing the support of either the racist idiots or normal disaffected people....
Then fade into oblivion in the following election.

[MGR1]

There is a growing feeling (has been for a while now) in the UK that our troops are ill equipped for the role they have taken on.

There is a general election due this summer and I expect to see equipment suddenly materialise in the run up to the polls.

Agreed. I don't think it'll do much good for Labour though.

Blair and pals obviously never heard of or ignored the lessons of British attempts on Afghanistan in the 19th century.

Afghanistan is a quagmire, and has been for any country that stuck it's nose in!

Mike.

[Jimbuna]

Agreed. I don't think it'll do much good for Labour though.

Blair and pals obviously never heard of or ignored the lessons of British attempts on Afghanistan in the 19th century.

Afghanistan is a quagmire, and has been for any country that stuck it's nose in!

Mike.

Rgr that http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[KeptinCranky]

But Wilders can't speak, its illegal, how can he possibly campaign?
:har::har::har::har:

I expect the freedom party will do well in the next elections, then will follow the usual pattern of these populist nuts.
Fail to deliver on anything at all, rip themselves apart over exactly how much can be blamed on which immigrants without losing the support of either the racist idiots or normal disaffected people....
Then fade into oblivion in the following election.

Well yes, I think so too :) they are only represented in two cities for the council elections in a few weeks so we won't have a clear picture of how they will do.

As for Wilders, I disagree with almost everything that man says, and when he does say something I can find some form of agreement with, he says it in a way I can't agree with... He won't get my vote.
Then there's the way he runs his political party....
All the political parties have an internal democracy that determines who they pick for leader and what the party line on the big issues should be, The PVV does not have that, it's one man, one vote, Wilders is that man, he has the vote. all the other parliamentarians from his party at the moment are little more than Yes-men... it's even worse than with Fortuyn.

We'll see... interesting times....

[Snestorm]

Maybe Wilders can get in and start to clean things up.
When Immigration becomes the top issue at elections, good things generaly start to happen.
There's a-lot of "stuff" that needs fixing.

[bookworm_020]

If the Dutch goverment pulls their troops out it will have an effect on troops that Australia has posted at their base. We have around 1200 troops based there as well.

[Tribesman]

When Immigration becomes the top issue at elections, good things generaly start to happen.
When immigration becomes the top issue very little of any worth happens and a bunch of muppets get elected for a single term where they do nothing but argue with themselves.

[Skybird]

Maybe Wilders can get in and start to clean things up.
When Immigration becomes the top issue at elections, good things generaly start to happen.


Radio, yesterday night. A spokesman of a Danish - claimed "moderate" - Islam organisation said that refering to muslim migrants as "migrants", is discrimination. He said that any Muslim migrant coming should be considered to be a Dane from the very beginning on - since Europe is Islam's anyway and it is only a quesiton of time until quote "the intelligent Europeans" unquote will accept the ruling of Islamic law in Islam'S own country - Europe - anyway. He said it is an act of hostility that Islam is denied to implement Sharia in it's own place, Europe, that denial expresses a deep intolerance and lacking respect. - Read my current sig! The author of that quote, Bassam Tibi, is a popular german political scientist and orientalist of Syrian origin, and sees himself as a Muslim, too.

Say what you want, such underhanded shamelessness at least holds a fascination in itself. If that guy nowadays even is considered "moderate", then I am in urgent need to redefine my understanding of "radical".

The radio moderator afterwards started babbling about multi-culti and a case of rape in Berlin two days ago, where a 15-year old German girl was brutally and repeatedly gang-raped by 5 Arab- or Turk looking men (words of the victim) - and he stopped just an inch of calling her guilty for having provoked the deed for having walked alone. The background of the story I also had read earlier yesterday: the Tagesspiegel's representative and moderator, a politically correct Turk, had temporarily attempted to censor the news and wrote in the news message that it were "5 men of southern looking", and apparently also had tried to censor user comments, supressing complaints.

In german major cities, reading the daily and nightly police station reports of cases coming in shows that the very clear majority of cases includes Arabs, Turks, Afghans, Albanians. The spectrum begins with physical assault, vandalsiing and beating up passenegers in poublic transportation (sometimes with the victim crippled forvever, even killed) leads over rape, and ends with street robbery . The Muslim migration background often gets supressed in media reports, courts tend to weigh the "assumed positive social prognosis" of the attackers as more important than the crippled health and traumatisation of the victims. the legal system in Germany is a very sad joke. If oyu have a migration bonus, you really have a bonus at the courts, you can be an "Intensivtäter", an "intense offender", who has been brought to court repeatedly before, for physical violence, robbery, whatever - and because your precious migrant future should not be threatened and you are just a poor innocent victim of social circumstances, you will again get away with a suspended "penalty". In main cities like Berlin and Frankfurt and cologne policemen openly admit that they do not go into areas anymore that are dominantly foreign muslim, saying they get beaten up and threatened with firearms and knifes and being told that it is no german territory anymore. Many policemen also are frustrated, and close to burn out. I know two such guys myself who now are with the BKA, they say thzat even at their time in uniform there already was a widespread feeling of frustration with judges and courts releasing dangerous crimionals on the basis of hysteric pedagogic theories and bizarr social prognosis.

Similiar stories from other countries coming in on a daily basis.

the election cattle nevertheless will stroll to the polls again like ordered, and will bring the same clique of people to power again who are responsible for bringing in more and more of these antisocial invaders and giving them priviliged social wellfare and protection from the criminal law. Some days ago they reported about a Muslim migrants (sorry the discriminating term) who refuse to work, instead f###s like a rabbit and says that with the social wellfare he gets for every kid, he makes a better monthly income. He says he plans to have more children to become wealthier, and not needing to work. His current kid count is "10".

Germany - this is your bright future cure to the shrinking population - antisocial, ideologically hostile, uneducated, refusing social low class nobodies with criminal outlooks multiplying and forming the future population structure more and more. At the same time politicians dream of germany as an education superpower and hightech industry basing on a huge pool of highly specialised academics (we have a brain drain, and a big one, but who cares...).

Last week I telephoned with an old friend of mine, we studied together. She has two girls meanwhile and sometimes worries about their future. I tell her time and again that if they can manage it, they should leave Europe. she then says she would miss her family and our friendship, and I say she should not care if she really cares for her kids' future. In Germany, the future is constant detoriation, and Islam and colonisation corroding social systems, legal systems, edcuation standards and Western culture.

I think it is the same in the Netherlands. Last year they have had the highest rates of natives turning their backs on the country since WWII, and it also had seen the highest rate on Muslim migrants (ooops, no discrimination meant, I mean originally Dutch people coming home to what is their own anyway, of course) arriving in the Netherlands. Good trade.

[Tribesman]

Same old rubbish from Sky, same old immigration crap.
He really should flee europe like he keeps saying , perhaps he can settle in the US and complain about the mexicans, mormons, koreans, catholics, puertoricans, jews, italians, protestants, irish, hmong, russians ........

[Schroeder]

I tell her time and again that if they can manage it, they should leave Europe. she then says she would miss her family and our friendship, and I say she should not care if she really cares for her kids' future. In Germany, the future is constant detoriation, and Islam and colonisation corroding social systems, legal systems, edcuation standards and Western culture.


But leaving without resisting means to clear the field for them. If everyone leaves they have won, right?;)

[Skybird]

But leaving without resisting means to clear the field for them. If everyone leaves they have won, right?;)

If people do not will to stand up against them, such people maybe are not worth to be defended, hm?

You know the debate about Westerwelle and his reference to Roman decadence. but in a different context than Hartz-IV, these remarks about the fall of Rome and it's fight-unwilling "decadentia" being overthrown by fighting barbarians is true, too:

http://www.welt.de/kultur/article6501979/Die-Dekadenten-werden-von-den-Barbaren-besiegt.html

[Tribesman]

If people do not will to stand up against them, such people maybe are not worth to be defended, hm?


there are no germans left now, all the true germans have fallen in the east resisting the jewish bolsheivic barbarian horde, what is left is not worth saving.

You know the debate about Westerwelle and his reference to Roman decadence. but in a different context than Hartz-IV, these remarks about the fall of Rome and it's fight-unwilling "decadentia" being overthrown by fighting barbarians is true, too:

Ah the decadence of Berlin, the liberal elite stabbing the country in the back and handing everything to the barbarians at the gate as they were too unwilling to fight.

[Snestorm]

Ah the decadence of Berlin, the liberal elite stabbing the country in the back and handing everything to the barbarians at the gate as they were too unwilling to fight.

Much worse than backstabbing.
They are Parasitic Worms destroying the country from the inside out.

[Tribesman]

Much worse than backstabbing.
They are Parasitic Worms destroying the country from the inside out.
Oh dear
Was that a quote from Ernst Rohm?:rotfl2: