View Full Version : Sight of view ?
Hi, I see there is a lot of people who play to SH4 at least! cool... I have a little question plz... :timeout:
Does someone know how long is the (average) sight of view for warships and merchants ships when sky is clear.
Because I am often detected by ennemy boat while I am on surface, preparing my interception at full speed... :oops:
I hope you will understand my question, my English is really poor... :cry:
RodBorza
02-19-10, 07:28 PM
From my experience so far, if it's broad daylight, I got destroyers coming at me fast, guns blazing from 18,000 yards. Usually they spot you at 15,000 yards.
Always remember that they can't see you as far as you can see them because of your low profile. But it doesn't mean than they can't see you at all: your boat's wake, profile, aspect to them all count on visual detection.
So, there are two things you can do:
1) with merchants, get paralell to them from a safe distance, get past them and intercept them submerged.
2) with warships, well, if they are coming towards you, try to intercept them ahead of their course. If they are going away from you, you have litle chance to intercept due to thei high speeds.
And last, but not least: try to make most of your attacks at night. In this way you can do a better approach surfaced and get to periscope depht near their course faster than in broad daylight.
Armistead
02-19-10, 08:43 PM
Mod's differ, but when you're sighted at long ranges, they usually have picked you up using radar. Other factors are what experience levels the crew have, they can be competant, veteran or elite, the better they're, the better all factors. Don't send reports, you get nothing for it and they can pick up your radio transmissions. They can also pick up your actual radar which is the reason they often come from far distances earlier war.
Best to cut it off once you have a base track, cut if on when only needed.
Weather effects sighting, merchants won't see you like warships due to ability level. I think the shooting range in TMO is 6000 yards. I know of no mod that where they shoot roughly 9nm's as you say, much less sight you, in stock it's less.
If they come at you from that far away, they've either got you on radar or picked up your radar transmissions
If you're within the minute contact zone and a plane spots you, he'll tell them.
SteamWake
02-19-10, 08:59 PM
Un modded there are rings that represent rings of detection ranges depicted on the stratigy map.
Thank for your reply (and happy to see you have understood me).
Steamwake, i remember there was a ring Like this in SH3 and i have seen it too in the SH5 videos preview... If you know where i can find this mode, you're welcome :) If not i Will search ! ;)
rodborza thank you for your precious tips. For warships who are going away from me at hight speed i have my little tips... Engaging them with deck gun when he is far enough then dive, make big noise to attract him and attack when he is very close... Risky tactic but it works.... Some Times! :)
Armystead thanks too, i didn't know ennemies could intercepted radio transmissions or radar signal. Looks very realistic :)
ok i Will raise down the radar antenna and Will take care for distances you have given to me.
Learn how you are detected, you must observe the behavior of the escorts on the map (provided you do not play at 100% realism)
a) If your watch does not see them either do not see you.
b) If the convoy sailed quietly and abruptly left an escort and patrol training erratically, then he caught your radar emissions.
c) If the convoy sailed quietly and suddenly a frigate is heading your direction at high speed, then you have detected with the radar or that of another ship.
If you are detected in case c), this may be the opportunity to make a nice hole in the convoy.
PS : Watch se traduit par vigie (et pas montre)
Thank you Gibus :03:
I have already seen the differents behaviors of a convoy when I am dectected but the aim is to react before they detect me... I would like to dive as later as possible to keep high speed for my intercept course.
You are right.
But being detected voluntarily is also a way to attract frigates out of the convoy.
Allez l'OL !:DL
yes... it is a good tactic.
PS: I hate foot :haha: sorry...
RodBorza
02-20-10, 06:33 PM
rodborza thank you for your precious tips. For warships who are going away from me at hight speed i have my little tips... Engaging them with deck gun when he is far enough then dive, make big noise to attract him and attack when he is very close... Risky tactic but it works.... Some Times! :)
[QUOTE]
Oww man, you are crazy!!! :DL But it's ok, as long as you are getting some tonnage out of it and bringing your boys back home safely. I always say that every captain is different from other captain, and there are thousands of different ways to do one thing.
[QUOTE=Armistead;1274211]Mod's differ, but when you're sighted at long ranges, they usually have picked you up using radar. Other factors are what experience levels the crew have, they can be competant, veteran or elite, the better they're, the better all factors. Don't send reports, you get nothing for it and they can pick up your radio transmissions. They can also pick up your actual radar which is the reason they often come from far distances earlier war...
If they come at you from that far away, they've either got you on radar or picked up your radar transmissions
If you're within the minute contact zone and a plane spots you, he'll tell them.
Armistead, I will need your help on this. I'm playing mission Redfish from Single Missions on RSRDC to prepare my videos about destroyer evasion tactics. But everytime I get detected from very far away. And no matter how deep I go, or how silent, they start to ping me and I have to get away without firing a torpedo. I have used every litlle dirty trick I know to not get detected before the attack and no success so far. Would it be because my radar emissions? If so, what can one do? Have some readings, and then after it shutdown radar? Or not using radar at all? It's 1944, South of Formosa.
:) we, (frenchies) have strange Tactics... (remember the beginning of WW2 with the "ligne Maginot" if you see what I mean... LOL)
RodBorza
02-20-10, 09:25 PM
LOL :rotfl2:
Armistead
02-21-10, 12:43 AM
The first rule of evading is not to be found in the first place. A good place to understand AI is here.
http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ai.htm
The main thing with not being detected is water conditions. Nothing effects sonar or passive listening like rough water conditions, the rougher the better, even a 5kt wind gives you a much better chance. Attacking in calm water with 0 wind in TMO is a sure way to get caught, so don't do it or shoot from much further away, 3500 yards if you don't want to be heard.
Obvious it differs with different mods. The AI is very hard with TMO.
The most important factor is water conditions. You can get by with murder in rough seas, but in calm water you can be heard from far away and easily pegged.
Obvious being below the thermal layer helps some, but not near as much as good water conditions.
I always ID the DD screen. I want to know what ships will soon be throwing charges at me. My tactics for evading a TYPEAB with 6 Y guns differs some from an escort with only rear racks.
You want to be on silent running when it benefits you. Those that think they can evade running silent at 1kt all the time are usually those that get killed. Your tactics have to change as the enemy responds...direction, speed, ect. But in general you want to head away from the direction of the convoy.
The common tactic that everyone uses is to wait and listen for the dd to speed up as it makes it's run. As it starts the run, most hit flank speed and turn some. The deeper you are the better. It will take some time for the charges to reach you in the depths, so at flank speed they will almost always fall behind you. If a escort has lots of Y guns, I seldom turn hard, just a 10 degree turn. If you turn hard, you're basically turning sideways into the Y gun pattern. A mild turn you keep your speed and it's enough to get out of the way of the rear drops, but not enough to turn into a spread from the Y gun.
Escorts do one of two things..They ping with sonar or listen. If they're pinging, they can't hear you so you can crank up speed, if they're listening, not pinging, that's the time to be quiet, run silent, until you have to evade. Still, one may be listening why one is pinging. You always want to keep a narrow profile as possible to the closest ship.
There is some debate. At some moment the JP's have to decide your depth and how deep to drop the charges. They don't drop some shallow and some deep, but they don't all explode at the same depth, usually 50 ft of each other. I think they determine your depth when they speed up. So I will sometimes be at say 300 ft and dive for deeper depths when they drop charges. If I'm in shallow water, say 300 ft, I'll come up fast as they speed up and charges will usually blow below me. Simply, if you can change your depth right before they drop enough, they will blow above or below you. If the water is 400 ft, I don't just go to 400 ft and stay there. I'll go to 300 and dive deeper when they make a run, then repeat.
Another tactic I found that works great in shallow water, say 100ft or less. Is not to flank when the DD passes. Stay almost at 1kt. Right before I think it will speed up or when I hear it speeding up I hit flank reverse. If I time it right all the charges will blow in front of me. I only do this against TypeAB's with 6 Y guns as it's about impossible to get out of their drop pattern in 200ft of water or less.
It really differs. When I play without cams or contacts, you really have to pay attention. If you use the cams while being attacked, it's rather easy to evade as you can see everything and adjust...stay in the sub where you can't see what's going on, it can be loads of fun.
I've got another thread somewhere that gets into surface radar, detection, ect..I'll see if I can find, but as you know, no fighting on the surface in TMO if you plan to live, but you can work radar to great advantage for night surface attacks or pulling the escort screen away.
Hello Armistead,
I fully agree with your doctrine. I play with TMO to 99% Realism, but I reduced the noise factor in the thermocline, that of Ducimus seems much too severe towards reality.
For now, I am still alive after the battle of Guadalcanal.
The purpose of my post is the following question: What do you call "Y guns"?
Armistead
02-21-10, 06:00 AM
Hello Armistead,
I fully agree with your doctrine. I play with TMO to 99% Realism, but I reduced the noise factor in the thermocline, that of Ducimus seems much too severe towards reality.
For now, I am still alive after the battle of Guadalcanal.
The purpose of my post is the following question: What do you call "Y guns"?
Which battle, are you playing RSRD? You can partake of several of the GC battles.
It is hard playing realistic. One thing I do check is for stability. Either my eyes or getting older, I can't deal with all that mad rocking. However, if you cut the cams and contacts off it's about as real as it can get.
I haven't cut back thse sensors yet. Just now trying the new patch in which he toned things down. I agree, the JP's are overpowered with TMO, but it's just a factor of what you like. In some ways it's still too easy, so it's a fair balance...I just finished a career and sank over 2 million tons, so even with cams and contacts off it's obviously too easy in many ways.
I would rather see the sensors toned down, but the convoy patterns be much more difficult, a better zig pattern, more speed, ect. That's where things need to be fixed.
Thanks for your great tips Armistead. I will read it a second time to understand everything... :hmmm: and then will practice...
I didn't know, the noise of the waves could have any influance with AI sound detection. Really great! Is it a improvement of Trigger Maru mod or was it setting like this in the stock game?
I play at 73% of realism (no dud torpedoes! :x) I have the update contact setting on cause even if I like to play as realistic as possible, I am not able to find precise position of an ennemy contact. Update contact allow me to find ennemy course and speed easily.
I would like to turn it off but, in my opinion, Hydrophone is not precise enough to find the right angle of a target.
How do you determinate precise position of contact?
Do you use ping to determinate the distance and periscope view to detreminate the precise angle of the contact?...
Gibus, I would like to take part at big battle (if my CPU allow me to do...) How do you know where to go to find one please? Or maybe you play single mission?
:arrgh!:
Which battle, are you playing RSRD? You can partake of several of the GC battles.
Oups ! I think we have a langage problem because I misspelled English.
My question was : what do you call "Y-guns" ?
I have spoken of Guadalcanal only to tell you that I shared your doctrine explained before, because I play with Trigger_Maru_Overhaul at 99%.
The language barrier is difficult for me to jump !
Gibus, I would like to take part at big battle (if my CPU allow me to do...) How do you know where to go to find one please? Or maybe you play single mission?
:arrgh!:
Tu peux me la redire en français ? :D
Je ne suis pas sûr d'avoir tout capté (le CPU, tout ça ...)
My question was : what do you call Y-guns?
Y Guns!
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/7624/scygun.jpg http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/1726/wamusygunsc267pic.jpg
I see. Thank you, Sergei.
Tu peux me la redire en français ? :D
Je ne suis pas sûr d'avoir tout capté (le CPU, tout ça ...)
:wah: en fait je disais " où vas tu pour prendre part à de grandes batailles? J'aimerais en trouver aussi et y prendre part si mon pc me le permet..."
I understand your matter with language barrier... Here I am trying to pass over it: > :damn:
:O:
Armistead
02-21-10, 01:57 PM
You have to love TMO and RSRD for the many ships it adds. Nothing worse than having six Type AB's above you, each with six Y guns a piece and roll offs..throwing twice in one run, over 24 charges. The real devil is the Matsu with double roll offs, Y guns and K guns..Seems they have an endless supply of charges.
I don't consider it unrealistic for those that play with contacts on. In reality your crew would be giving you that information. It's fairly easy to track with sonar and radar without contacts. Radar gives you bearing and range, so it's just simple as marking it on your chart over and over until you get a base course. You just have to keep a decent range so they can't get you with their radar.
All the large battles are included in RSRD, but many smaller ones. Most of the battles are in stock, but poorly scripted. You just have to be at the historical place at the right time or know the path they take. RSRD for the most parts starts the TF at the correct port, the right path all the way to battle. Take the Midway Japan TF. Instead of looking for it near Midway, you can ambush it coming through the Bungo Straits.
The large TF for the battle of the Philippines sits in Tawi Tawi. One of the best battles is the battle of Leyte. I went through the San Bern Straits and waited. Finally found the JP TF. The day before they go through the straits, US planes attack in mass. I watched a few hundred US planes attack the group. I then sank two ships and saved over 20 pilots and started chasing them again all the way through the straits. The next day set up another attack as I watched the American DD's come and give battle...right place , right time, you can have surface fleets doing battle with ships and planes...gets rather intense.
Inner Sound
02-21-10, 02:17 PM
rodborza thank you for your precious tips. For warships who are going away from me at hight speed i have my little tips... Engaging them with deck gun when he is far enough then dive, make big noise to attract him and attack when he is very close... Risky tactic but it works.... Some Times! :)
Like it, thanks Maltro
nother tactic I found that works great in shallow water, say 100ft or less. Is not to flank when the DD passes. Stay almost at 1kt. Right before I think it will speed up or when I hear it speeding up I hit flank reverse. If I time it right all the charges will blow in front of me. I only do this against TypeAB's with 6 Y guns as it's about impossible to get out of their drop pattern in 200ft of water or less.Like this too, thanks Armistead
One of the best battles is the battle of Leyte. I went through the San Bern Straits and waited. Finally found the JP TF. The day before they go through the straits, US planes attack in mass. I watched a few hundred US planes attack the group. I then sank two ships and saved over 20 pilots and started chasing them again all the way through the straits. The next day set up another attack as I watched the American DD's come and give battle...right place , right time, you can have surface fleets doing battle with ships and planes...gets rather intense.
Epic story... :up: That looks great!
Does your PC "lag" (don't know the good word to say "run more slowly") when
you had 100 planes and JP TF at the same time on screen? I have never seen a battle like this but I am not sure my PC could survive!... :hmmm:
(Athlon Dual core x2 6000+ 3Go - 2Go of DDR2 - Nvidia 8800GT 512 Mo - run windows xp pro)
Do you know if I can install RSRD after Trigger Maru?
You looks have a good knowledge of the epics battles of the Pacific theatre and so, you know where are the TF and the rights places for major battles but for a newbie (like me :oops: :D) is it easy to find those location and take parts to them (in RSRD)?
Thx! :arrgh!:
I don't consider it unrealistic for those that play with contacts on. In reality your crew would be giving you that information. It's fairly easy to track with sonar and radar without contacts. Radar gives you bearing and range, so it's just simple as marking it on your chart over and over until you get a base course.
Yes you are right, it is certainly why when you check or not the setting "map contact update" with TM mod, the % of realism doesn't change...
But even if it is quite easy to find the distance by using ping or periscope, how do you find the exact bearing ? The needle of the radar dial is not precise enough (+or- 5°) and the rule isn't too... I suppose we have do deal with?...
I have try in the submarine school, mission n°3 (destroy the Mogami) and it works but the speed I have found wasn't rights (find 10 instead 9) due to the approximate rule...
Armistead
02-21-10, 05:37 PM
You should be able to handle the epic battles. You have about the same system as I do..Sometimes it may slow down a little, but still can deal with it..I do take my AA down while attacking so I don't pick up a bunch of plane contacts..Most surface battles are without planes unless you just hit the lucky spot.
Yes, you can run RSRD after TMO..Here are a few convoys and battles of RSRD.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=159862
Heres a good animated map that works good with RSRD.
http://www.historyanimated.com/pacificwaranimated/
Just pick a battle then watch animated battle, go through all the icons. You can see the complete path of the TF to the battle. Most just try to fight the battle where it historically happened, but I prefer to find a better place to ambush the TF along it's path to battle..Usually I'll find a Strait and figure out the time before I need to be there. Like Midway, I prefer to attack...think it's May 25 in the Bungo Straits when the TF is coming out instead of near Midway, but have done both.
The battle of Leyte is rather easy to find..Just sit in the San Bern Straits Oct 24-25 1944 and the large TF will come through or go sit in the Surigao Straits Oct 24 and you'll see a big surface battle.
Sonar and radar give you plenty info. You can get range close enough on radar. I think they're a few youtube videos on tracking without contacts and I will try to find and post later.
You should be able to handle the epic battles. You have about the same system as I do..Sometimes it may slow down a little, but still can deal with it..
Good news! :woot:
Yes, you can run RSRD after TMO..Here are a few convoys and battles of RSRD.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=159862
wow, I have never seen as much contact! It must be fun to play... I have seen you sunk many of them. Good job! Have you been annoying by their sensors?
Heres a good animated map that works good with RSRD.
http://www.historyanimated.com/pacificwaranimated/
Great website, I am sad to don't speak English as well as I would like... :wah:
Are thoses battles have been correctly (like in real history) script in the game? What RSRD brings more?
:arrgh!:
:wah: en fait je disais " où vas tu pour prendre part à de grandes batailles? J'aimerais en trouver aussi et y prendre part si mon pc me le permet..."
I understand your matter with language barrier... Here I am trying to pass over it: > :damn:
:O:
In réality, my English is too bad that I can leave with honor in this trap !
But here is a very comprehensive link :
http://www.mille-sabords.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28544
Good reading.
Gibus
Armistead
02-22-10, 07:13 PM
Good news! :woot:
wow, I have never seen as much contact! It must be fun to play... I have seen you sunk many of them. Good job! Have you been annoying by their sensors?
Great website, I am sad to don't speak English as well as I would like... :wah:
Are thoses battles have been correctly (like in real history) script in the game? What RSRD brings more?
:arrgh!:
Here is the link to RSRD so you can read all the changes...Yes, makes the battles historically correct...
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=123467&page=117
Your English is fine...
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