Penny Arcade!

[Tonnage_Ace]

[/URL][URL="http://img695.imageshack.us/i/791728635vj8qal.jpg/"]http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/4541/791728635vj8qal.jpg (http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/4541/791728635vj8qal.jpg)

[Catfish]

Helo,

this is brilliant !! :rotfl2:

I already said, if those companies go on with their pro-DRM lobbies harassing politicians, and pressing their own "laws" in existance, i will probably abstain completely of further buying sims and software that intrude in such manner.
Or i'll behave like the one in the comic strip. I would never have thought i would ever say something like this :-?

Greetings,
Catfish

[Onkel Neal]

Sad. The police are patroling my street to watch for criminals and that upsets me so I am going out and rob houses too.

[Fincuan]

Sigh... If it only were "patrolling the streets", but no... A more fitting analogy would be:
"Because I bought a can of soda the police are knocking on my door every 10 seconds and searching through my house to verify the can is legally obtained. Next time I'll just take the can without them knowing."

[Gunnodayak]

It's Catfish's way of taking a stand against the things that he believes that are not fair. I can understand him, at least partially. And he's not the only one, I know.

[Méo]

Sigh... If it only were "patrolling the streets", but no... A more fitting analogy would be:
"Because I bought a can of soda the police are knocking on my door every 10 seconds and searching through my house to verify the can is legally obtained.

Yeah, and with SH5 you will have to get up your chair and open your door every 10 seconds.

[TarJak]

Yeah, and with SH5 you will have to get up your chair and open your door every 10 seconds.
Or not play it at all if you are travelling or unable to get a connection to the network.:O:

[Nordmann]

Sad. The police are patroling my street to watch for criminals and that upsets me so I am going out and rob houses too.

Police? What are they? Some kind of law enforcement body? Over here, we don't have police, we have the PC Stasi. They ensure that criminals do not have their feelings hurt in any way.

Anyway, while I do not condone piracy, I can see intrusive DRM pushing more people towards the shadier zones on gaming. It's a simple fact of life, push people hard enough, and they start pushing back.

[urfisch]

AGAIN: the new DRM is not to prevent piracy!!! damn...and it wont prevent it, anyway.

its to prevent the reselling...

:shifty:

[Gunnodayak]

Anyway, while I do not condone piracy, I can see intrusive DRM pushing more people towards the shadier zones on gaming. It's a simple fact of life, push people hard enough, and they start pushing back.
Sometimes if you think you are right, and you are taking as a fool by others (in this case "almighty" UBI), and you want to fight and to win, you may use anything that is necessary. But not necessarily orthodox.

[martes86]

"Because I bought a can of soda the police are knocking on my door every 10 seconds and searching through my house to verify the can is legally obtained. Next time I'll just take the can without them knowing."

I can only agree with the first part. The second, well, represents what it says. :-?

[Safe-Keeper]

Sad. The police are patroling my street to watch for criminals and that upsets me so I am going out and rob houses too.Osama bin Laden recently visited Manhattan and stayed over the weekend. While he greatly strolling down the famous streets, shopping in the huge skyscrapers, and visiting the fabled Ground Zero (where he spent a great deal of time, for reasons known only to himself), he complained about the high level of security at US airports and stated that he, quote, felt he was being treated like a potential criminal, unquote:nope:.

"Because I bought a can of soda the police are knocking on my door every 10 seconds and searching through my house to verify the can is legally obtained. Next time I'll just take the can without them knowing."
...and now for another analogy that actually reflects reality to at least a limited degree.

Anyway, while I do not condone piracy, I can see intrusive DRM pushing more people towards the shadier zones on gaming. It's a simple fact of life, push people hard enough, and they start pushing back.Really. The gamers were just sitting there all meek and mild, not doing any piracy at all, and then all of a sudden, the greedy, evil Big Gaming started treating them like pirates as if games were downloaded illegaly at a rate of 9:10 or something. They deserve that pirates keep... eh, start stealing games when they treat pirates like the pirates they are... um, aren't!

[Méo]

its to prevent the reselling...

:shifty:

IF I plan to resell it, I will create a new e-mail address with new password, log with it and then write all this on a piece of paper and put it in my SH5 box.

[Nordmann]

Really. The gamers were just sitting there all meek and mild, not doing any piracy at all, and then all of a sudden, the greedy, evil Big Gaming started treating them like pirates as if games were downloaded illegaly at a rate of 9:10 or something. They deserve that pirates keep... eh, start stealing games when they treat pirates like the pirates they are... um, aren't!


I obviously can't speak for everyone here, but personally I have never engaged in piracy in the entirety of my gaming history, and nor do I intend to start now. Frankly, while companies claim pirates are putting a dent in their sales, it just isn't true. These people had no intention of buying the game in the first place, and thus said company hasn't actually lost a sale, they would not have had one to begin with.

I can understand their stance, and their desire to protect their property, but there should be limits. Since we're all so fond of analogies, if I were frisked each and every time I entered and left a store, I would not be shopping there again!

[Onkel Neal]

Sigh... If it only were "patrolling the streets", but no... A more fitting analogy would be:
"Because I bought a can of soda the police are knocking on my door every 10 seconds and searching through my house to verify the can is legally obtained. Next time I'll just take the can without them knowing."


No, not really. More like there's a tiny lil cop in a metal box under my desk, and he's not making any noise as long as my game is legal :)

And thank you for becoming a part of the problem. I look forward to knowing the next time I buy a game, I am paying for you as well.

[Méo]

Or not play it at all if you are travelling or unable to get a connection to the network.:O:

That may be an issue, but personally, each time I travel I have other things to do (visit, discover, enjoy, etc.) than to play a computer game.

[TarJak]

Good luck to you. I also tend to spend time working visiting, doing other things however there are times when sinking ships is a great way to kill off some time. For example:

I regularly visit a city an hours flight away that I lived in for 4 years. There ain't much I've not seen of it and when I'm finished work after a 12 or 13 hour day and feel like relaxing instead of going out to meet some mates for a beer, sometimes cracking the laptop and sinking some ships is a nice way to do it.

I also travel internationally quite a bit and when I've seen most of the in flight entertainment, finished the meal and some work and have another 4 hours to kill before feeling tired enough to sleep, again sinking ships would kill some time in the air.

Unfortunately that won't be possible with SHV.:shifty: You all know why...

[Fincuan]

And thank you for becoming a part of the problem. I look forward to knowing the next time I buy a game, I am paying for you as well.

I really expected more from you than this same "He's against DRM so he MUST be a pirate"-thinking. I'll put this very simply: If a game is worth playing it's worth buying. The proposed DRM scheme makes SH5 not worth playing for me, so I sure as hell am not going to buy it either.

[Heretic]

The thing that makes me so leery of the anti-DRM movement is they use a lot of the same reasons to oppose DRM that the pirates use to justify their piracy. To be clear, I am not accusing or implying in any way that those opposed to DRM are pirates, but lending credence to the pirates' justifications seems counter-productive and will likely lead to more DRM, not less.

[Nordmann]

The thing that makes me so leery of the anti-DRM movement is they use a lot of the same reasons to oppose DRM that the pirates use to justify their piracy. To be clear, I am not accusing or implying in any way that those opposed to DRM are pirates, but lending credence to the pirates' justifications seems counter-productive and will likely lead to more DRM, not less.

Well, it's certainly not the best of arguments, but frankly the same can be said of the pro-DRM movement. Some of the things they come out with are nothing short of astounding, one wonders at times as to whether these people are on Ubi's payroll!

[Onkel Neal]

I really expected more from you than this same "He's against DRM so he MUST be a pirate"-thinking. I'll put this very simply: If a game is worth playing it's worth buying. The proposed DRM scheme makes SH5 not worth playing for me, so I sure as hell am not going to buy it either.

Excuse me, but didn't you say: Next time I'll just take the can without them knowing. :hmmm:

Saying you "expected more from me" implies that if I pretend I didn't read that, I am ok. How could have ever expected me to ignore that?

But we're still mates :O:

[Fincuan]

It was an analogy in an effort to demonstrate how the average gamer feels DRM complicates his life without any gains and actually promotes such "shortcuts", not how I'm going to act. Besides I said "taking the can without them(the DRM 'watchdog', which may or may not be the same as the developer) noticing", not "without paying".
edit: In the case of SH5 it might be that the latter approach is impossible.

[Brag]

The problem with DRM, it is alienating large numbers of people, thus worsening the piracy problem.

[Onkel Neal]

It was an analogy in an effort to demonstrate how the average gamer feels DRM complicates his life without any gains and actually promotes such "shortcuts", not how I'm going to act. Besides I said "taking the can without them(the DRM 'watchdog', which may or may not be the same as the developer) noticing", not "without paying".
edit: In the case of SH5 it might be that the latter approach is impossible.


Ok, I understand, so you were speaking from the viewpoint of the typical gamer? I offer my sincere apologies, I read that as if Fincuan were gearing up to steal games. I am relieved to know that's not the case, I expected more from you than that too! Glad to know my expectations were well-founded, thanks. :yep: Edit: PS: you have to remember it's hard for me to know all of you as well as you know me :( Sorry

The problem with DRM, it is alienating large numbers of people, thus worsening the piracy problem.
Possibly, but those who choose to let this sway them into piracy, do not have strong principles to begin with.

If this DRM bothered me so much, I would buy the game, make a video of me burning it, and post it on YouTube. Now that would make a statement!

[mookiemookie]

I'm probably treading very close to the brig on this, but ...

Edit: Yes, that's commonly known. --NS

Mods - if this is unacceptable, please edit or delete. I'm fine with that.

[martes86]

If this DRM bothered me so much, I would buy the game, make a video of me burning it, and post it on YouTube. Now that would make a statement!

Then you could just burn your money as well, lol. In this world of crysis, I don't think it would be well regarded to burn your own money. :haha:

[Sailor Steve]

Anyway, while I do not condone piracy, I can see intrusive DRM pushing more people towards the shadier zones on gaming. It's a simple fact of life, push people hard enough, and they start pushing back.
Some of us will push back by refusing to be part of at all. This does not mean we'll become part of the problem. Won't buy it, won't play it either.

[Nordmann]

Some of us will push back by refusing to be part of at all. This does not mean we'll become part of the problem. Won't buy it, won't play it either.

Oh I agree, I'll be making my stand by refusing to buy it as well, heck, it's not as if I'm short on games! But there are people who will go the other way, and right or wrong, it will be Ubi's own doing.

[Jimbuna]

Whether the individual decides to boycott the game because of the DRM or chooses to buy it despite having misgivings is entirely down to each individuals choice.

Turning to or supporting the position regarding piracy can not and should not be condoned in any way shape or form.

[TarJak]

Some of us will push back by refusing to be part of at all. This does not mean we'll become part of the problem. Won't buy it, won't play it either.

+1

Whether the individual decides to boycott the game because of the DRM or chooses to buy it despite having misgivings is entirely down to each individuals choice.

Turning to or supporting the position regarding piracy can not and should not be condoned in any way shape or form.

+1

Just because I am not buying SHV or any other Ubi game because of the OSP does not make me part of the problem. I have no plans to obtain the game in any form until Ubi either releases it without OSP, or it hits the bargain bins where a $10 investment make me say so what if I can only play it online. It makes me an informed consumer making a choice NOT a supporter of software piracy.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Then you will pay for a whole lot of "other people".
I still dont need that cop right there.

Down with it.
The more i see talk about it, the more i feel like kicking the dead horse or some stupd beancounter donkey in th butt.

This is my PC. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

http://www.imfdb.org/images/8/8f/FMJ-M14.jpg

[Tonnage_Ace]

Haha nice FMJ ref

[NeonSamurai]

I think some of you missed the point of the comic, it is actually a statement against piracy.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2010/2/19/


A Cyclical Argument With A Literal Strawman

Alright. So, Ubisoft's new DRM. Supports unlimited installs and Cloud-based save data. Requires absolutely unbroken access to their master servers, or the product ceases to function. I can boil it right down for you:
Nobody wins.
Well, except pirates. Pirates always win, on a long enough timeline. Honestly, the timeline doesn't even need to be that long.
Visit any thread regarding the topic, and I mean any thread, and it won't be three posts until someone raises the Goddamned Jolly Roger and says they'll pirate the game as a gesture consistent with some comprehensive ur-morality they've ginned up, one where stealing things is alright provided they were very angry when they did it. It's entirely possible that you don't like being spoken to in this way, but somebody has to get this done. What Ubisoft is doing here is Draconian - I don't mean those lizard dudes, I'm talking about laws which are characterized by their severity. Before they eventually dismantle it, and it will be dismantled, it will have achieved exactly the opposite of their intention. But what I won't tolerate from rational beings is the idea that you don't understand why they're doing it.
Every avenue of convenience for the user is also a vector of exploitation.
They have given up.
As fiery rhetoric goes, this sucks. It doesn't have that revolutionary quality that rallies the faithful. The trouble is that this dialogue between pirates and publishers, one which was always characterized by falsehood and ill-will, has ceased to exist in this case. A maneuver this extreme means that they're finished talking altogether: this mechanism is their response, the final word. Only it's impossible to get the final word here in The Cloud. Ever.
And no-one of any sense has ever bet against the scorn and resourcefulness of young men.
(CW)TB out.

Anyhow for all you would be pirates ready to 'stick it to the man' by pirating SH5, I wouldn't hold your breath. I don't expect this DRM to be broken any time soon, and SH5 would be the last game on the list to bother with (particularly when compared to AC2 and SC Conviction), if ever.

I will not be buying any further Ubisoft games due to this new form of DRM until the DRM is removed (which may happen if sales are actually worse with it). Being angry over the DRM does not give license to steal the work, the DRM is there largely because of stealing. Software piracy has become a huge problem due to the ease at which people can now commit it. Any drooling moron can do it now, as evidenced by the huge numbers of idiots who contact tech support over problems with their stolen game.

Piracy has gotten so far out of hand that it is not unusual for games to hit 4:1 or higher pirated:bought ratios. Some games have hit 90% piracy rates (that means out of 10 people who have the game 9 are pirates)! No matter how you slice it this is costing the companies a fortune, especially when compared to console piracy rates, which are considerably lower (well below 1:1) due to the added difficulty, and if it continues it will eventually wreck PC gaming.

Now I am not going to say that the game companies are all saints. They release plenty of garbage that is either just bad, buggy, and/or broken. I'm sure everyone of us can point to at least one game we bought where we got ripped off. Sometimes they fix the game, too often they don't, or just barely make the game work. A lot of this is their fault sure, but piracy doesn't help either. Number of copies sold helps determine if its economical to patch the game or not. I don't agree with game companies doing this, and I think when they do this, they are stealing from us. But this doesn't justify wholesale piracy back either, as its not the bad games that get pirated like crazy, its the top games; games that the game companies deserve to be paid for, for making a good game.

Anyhow all I am going to say on this issue.

[Hanomag]

Actually I think the cartoon is rather funny and probably quite realistic. Most will travel the path of least resistance.

Bottom line is some of the most "seasoned" subsimmers are.. shall we say "unhappy" with this whole DRM thing. :hmmm:

This whole piracy thing is hogwash... we all know that everything gets pirated or knocked off.. from Gucci bags to jeans to video games. So give it up.. DRM will not stop or slow down the wheels of "hacking" or whatever you want to call it. If I could tell you how many "pirated" movie dvds I have seized over the years, the number is staggering. I have friends who work for NYC sanitation that havent had to rent or go to the movies for years because of seizure "rewards". And in the face of thousands arrests nothing has stemmed the tide of the waves of pirated stuff.

So will it prevent or prevail?... or will be just another PITA kinda like childproof lighters, pill bottles, doors etc. Only time will tell.

I firmly stand on what I know.. SH3 GWX is the greatest subsim I have ever played. If it has to be the last one I ever play.. so be it. :nope:

Sorry in advance... :-?

[FIREWALL]

Or not play it at all if you are travelling or unable to get a connection to the network.:O:

So Right.:up:

So fitting, flying to a SubSim meeting and can't play SH5 to while the flight away. :roll:

[Sailor Steve]

:rotfl2::rock:

Oh wait. I just used those two together responding to another statement of yours.

But it's so true, and you are so right with that one.:sunny:

Oh, wait again. I promised I wasn't going to talk about 'IT' anymore!:damn:

But this was so good!:|\\

[Task Force]

I look at it this way... Pirates sometimes DL a game they wouldnt have ever buyed... Ither way, the publisher would have got nothing,

If he would have found out about the DRM, and not bought the game... no money gained.

If he pirated the game The company dosent really loose anything, they didnt have to pay for the disc, or the publisher to print it... No money gained.

Im not saying piracy is right, but ither way, they lost a sell...

(why do I feel im gonna get blasted.)

[jazman]

Can someone point me to a place where a software company has presented their actual losses due to so-called "piracy"?

[tommyk]

I look at it this way... Pirates sometimes DL a game they wouldnt have ever buyed... Ither way, the publisher would have got nothing,

If he would have found out about the DRM, and not bought the game... no money gained.

If he pirated the game The company dosent really loose anything, they didnt have to pay for the disc, or the publisher to print it... No money gained.

Im not saying piracy is right, but ither way, they lost a sell...


well said! :up:

I do not support piracy but I also do not want to support such crazy DRM. Currently I see no reason for me to go from SH3 GWX to SH5...

[NeonSamurai]

I look at it this way... Pirates sometimes DL a game they wouldnt have ever buyed... Ither way, the publisher would have got nothing,

If he would have found out about the DRM, and not bought the game... no money gained.

If he pirated the game The company dosent really loose anything, they didnt have to pay for the disc, or the publisher to print it... No money gained.

Im not saying piracy is right, but ither way, they lost a sell...

(why do I feel im gonna get blasted.)

<loads cannons and comes about for a broadside>

Oh sure pirates steal lots of games that they never would have bought, but they also steal a lot of games they would have bought if they couldn't have pirated it, and that costs the publisher money. DRM becomes important during the first few months the game goes on sale; the longer the delay between the game going on the market and it showing up on the internet, the more copies they will sell as people give in to waiting and decide to buy it rather then steal it when it eventually gets cracked.

This is why a lot of cross platform games have long delays before the pc version gets released, not because the port isn't ready in time, but to delay the inevitable and hopefully get more sales out of the console games (studies have shown that console sales drop dramatically if a pirate version of the same game is available for pc at the same time). This is also shown by the sales of console games vs similar pc games (console game sales can be 10 times higher currently) even though theoretically there are way more pc's capable of playing the game then there are console owners.

Ultimately its human nature and greed, and this time its not publisher greed, it's consumer/gamer greed. Why pay for something when you can get it for free.

[HundertzehnGustav]

That question is a Good one.

Up to them to find an answer.
DRM makes SHV the most expensive game i have ever played, costing up to 600 euroes a year to play.

[Elder-Pirate]

I look at it this way... Pirates sometimes DL a game they wouldnt have ever buyed... Ither way, the publisher would have got nothing,

If he would have found out about the DRM, and not bought the game... no money gained.

If he pirated the game The company dosent really loose anything, they didnt have to pay for the disc, or the publisher to print it... No money gained.

I'm not saying piracy is right, but either way, they lost a sell...

(why do I feel I'm gonna get blasted.)



You should be Blasted for telling the Gods honest truth???

Not in my book you won't. More power to you. :up:

[Nisgeis]

Possibly, but those who choose to let this sway them into piracy, do not have strong principles to begin with.

What if they purchase the game legitamately, yet find that they can't realistically play the game in its 'out of the box' configuration, so they go on line to get a 'fix' and use that instead. Piracy figures +1, but no loss of sale. Doesn't that just play into the hands of the DRM companies hands? Duuuuuuude look how many copies you COULD have sold, if it weren't for those evil pirates (legitimate consumers with crippleware).

(studies have shown that console sales drop dramatically if a pirate version of the same game is available for pc at the same time). This is also shown by the sales of console games vs similar pc games (console game sales can be 10 times higher currently) even though theoretically there are way more pc's capable of playing the game then there are console owners.

Hmmm, there was the one case of one particular game having a sales rate of ten to one consoles to PC, but that was a rarity. Can you post some links to one of the multiple studies that have shown console sales drop dramatically? I'm not trying to call you out or anything, I just would like to read up about it. The averaage piracy world rate of 38% doesn't seem that high, but if there are certain games that are pirated at a rate of 1000%, then that means that it's a minorty of games that are accounting for that 38% figure and the rest of the market really isn't at risk of piracy at all. Anyway, I'd be interested in those study reports.

[Nisgeis]

Alright, so let's try changing the name of DRM, as it's become a bit of a negative phrase and sometimes changing the name allows people to see things in a new way, so here goes... Let's instead refer to it as 'Fairy Dust' or perhaps 'Unicorn Tears'.

So, has there ever been a major (not niche) title published, that has been sprinkled with fairy dust that has not been pirated? Because I just don't believe sprinkling fairy dust on a game will protect it from pirates - it's like some sort of weird belief system. How much is fairy dust per pound and why are we, the legitimate purchaser, paying for fairy dust, if it doesn't work?

As for the fairy dust used on SH5, then if it's the dust from the same fairy that AC2 has, then the fairy dust won't be of any use to anyone and will again be a complete waste of money on the part of the publisher once the AC2 fans have blown the fairy dust off the game. Why do they keep wasting money and bumping up the cost of their game (or alternatively eating into their profits) by sprinkling things with fairy dust? It's like an old wives' tale. Fairy dust is paid for by the legitimate buyer and is completely useless.

[JScones]

Fairy dust:rotfl2:

[frau kaleun]

Alright, so let's try changing the name of DRM, as it's become a bit of a negative phrase and sometimes changing the name allows people to see things in a new way, so here goes... Let's instead refer to it as 'Fairy Dust'

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=144&pictureid=1298

[frenema]

I don't understand how some people still automatically conclude that: 700,000 piracy = 700,000 games unsold. That's like saying ID requirement for alcohol purchase will automatically lead to all or even most teenagers to wait until legal age (yeah right...).

I'm not saying that piracy is not causing any problems at all, because it is apparent from the game stores I visit where the PC games went from filling half of the store to being pushed off by console games and hiding in a small corner. So yes, PC companies are feeling desperate and they're implementing their new protection system in hopes of getting people to gradually accept the new DRM as the norm. So even if Ubisoft loses many customers for their initial games with the new OSP, but enough people eventually come to accept it as being 'normal', then Ubisoft recuperate their profits. But only time will tell if this works or not and whether people will give in or not. I for one refuse to submit to such fascist c**p.

[Nordmann]

We have become a society of sheep, and sheep can easily be herded. :nope:

Sadly this is all too true. People are only too willing to accept more and more restrictions in their lives, more laws, more enforcement measures. It's an ongoing process of gradual oppression, of which most appear oblivious. It's the age old case of bread and circuses, keep the unwashed masses amused, so they do not focus on their lack of freedom. But watch out, say anything against this system and you're in for a brow beating.

[JScones]

Sadly this is all too true. People are only too willing to accept more and more restrictions in their lives, more laws, more enforcement measures. It's an ongoing process of gradual oppression, of which most appear oblivious. It's the age old case of bread and circuses, keep the unwashed masses amused, so they do not focus on their lack of freedom. But watch out, say anything against this system and you're in for a brow beating.
Reminds me of a poignant quote from Desmond Tutu:

If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality. Not implying a comparison to SH5 mind you, but still thought provoking nonetheless...

[karamazovnew]

IF I plan to resell it, I will create a new e-mail address with new password, log with it and then write all this on a piece of paper and put it in my SH5 box.

ABout 10 years ago I sold my 486 and, to make the deal more interesting for my buyer, I also threw in my games. Nothing fancy, just:

- entire Comanche 1 series :damn:
- Wing Commander 4 :damn::damn:
- Flight Unlimited 1 :damn::damn::doh::damn:
- F15 Strike Eagle 3.... :damn::damn:


Since then, I vowed never to sell another game. For example, I still have my Age of Conan Collector's edition box even though I haven't played it after the first month (almost 2 years ago). But I guess a lot of people resell their games so here's an advice if you want to protect your "not sure how legal" right to resell.

Every time you buy an OSP game, make a new Ubi.com account AND a new mail account. For example, Meo, make a MeoSH5 account for SH5 and a MeoAC2 account for Assassin's Creed 2. That's because you'll not be able to log into 2 different games with one account at the same time.

[Jimbuna]

Reminds me of a poignant quote from Desmond Tutu:

Not implying a comparison to SH5 mind you, but still thought provoking nonetheless...

Similarly this quote by Thomas Jefferson:

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.

[NeonSamurai]

Hmmm, there was the one case of one particular game having a sales rate of ten to one consoles to PC, but that was a rarity. Can you post some links to one of the multiple studies that have shown console sales drop dramatically? I'm not trying to call you out or anything, I just would like to read up about it. The averaage piracy world rate of 38% doesn't seem that high, but if there are certain games that are pirated at a rate of 1000%, then that means that it's a minorty of games that are accounting for that 38% figure and the rest of the market really isn't at risk of piracy at all. Anyway, I'd be interested in those study reports.

Well lets start with some figures, I'll dig up the rest when I have some time and am not sick (have the flu atm).

http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=15831


US Console & Handheld Game Software Sales
1998 - $3.7 billion
1999 - $4.2 billion
2000 - $4.1 billion (130.6 million units)
2001 - $4.6 billion (141.5 million units)
2002 - $5.5 billion (162.8 million units)
2003 - $5.8 billion (186.4 million units)
2004 - $6.2 billion (203 million units)
2005 - $6.1 billion (190.5 million units)
2006 - $6.5 billion

US PC Game Software Sales
1998 - $1.8 billion
1999 - $1.9 billion
2000 - $1.78 billion (84.9 million units)
2001 - $1.75 billion (83.6 million units)
2002 - $1.4 billion (61.5 million units)
2003 - $1.2 billion (52.8 million units)
2004 - $1.1 billion (47 million units)
2005 - $953 million (38 million units)
2006 - $970 million


That's a pretty giant drop in software sales for pc in the US, 2006 made half as much as 1999. It isn't explained by people switching to consoles, there are still far more gaming capable pc's then there are consoles.

Anyhow the companies certainly have noticed that sales of their console games drop down quite a bit if they release a pc version at the same time (and no the pc sales don't go up). This is precisely why they delay the pc release for 3-6 months. The logic is pretty simple, if its available to be pirated on pc, fewer people are going to buy it (and console sales will suffer too).

For further reading Neal posted a link to a pretty good examination of the effect piracy is having on the industry. I don't agree with everything in it but most of it is accurate by my knowledge.
PC Game Piracy Examined (http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html)

Anyhow, my point is its always wrong to pirate stuff, it is stealing no matter how one tries to excuse it. If you don't like the DRM, don't buy or pirate the game. I personally never buy steam games, or anything else that will limit my ability to play the game when I want, far into the future.

[Dowly]

@Neon

Those figures cant be just because of piracy, Xbox360 games are as much pirated as PC games. :hmmm:

Also, does that count all console sales? As in Wii, xbox360 and PS3 games combined? That would skew the figures a lot.

[Méo]

Every time you buy an OSP game, make a new Ubi.com account AND a new mail account. For example, Meo, make a MeoSH5 account for SH5 and a MeoAC2 account for Assassin's Creed 2. That's because you'll not be able to log into 2 different games with one account at the same time.

Yeah, but that's why I said IF I plan to resell it.

Anyway, how much could I resell a 50$ game to a friend. And how much could I resell an already used 50$ computer game on the net with shipping fee... ...maybe few bucks... but it's no drama for me.

[karamazovnew]

Yeah, but that's why I said IF I plan to resell it.

Anyway, how much could I resell a 50$ game to a friend. And how much could I resell an already used 50$ computer game on the net with shipping fee... ...maybe few bucks... but it's no drama for me.

True... and as long as Ubi doesn't force you to use the same account for all its games, I don't see how OSP can prevent reselling. And I can't find a reason to only make one account. All games will have a login screen with automatic account/password entires. The downside might appear in the future when games will have linked content or friends will try to reach you Steam-style. I'm sorry they didn't find a way to link their OSP to Steam as an option. I've just gotten used to Steam. Demos and game manuals (which are better than demos) are enough to make it worth the space.

btw, I forgot to add Red Alert 1 to that list of lost games :damn: :damn: :damn:

[BarjackU977]

I happened to wonder what influence has marketing over people behaviour, and piracy.

Around games, there is marketing. Ads in magazines, on websites, on some TV channels.
Goal: let you know about the game first, and second, also tempt you. Create new "needs".

This questions is quite "out of topic", sorry for that. But It came to my mind as I've read this topic (reading about house robbery, for which there is no marketing).
Marketing is logical from a sales perspective. What I wonder is if piracy raises following the same curve as sales thanks to marketing, or if it follows another curve.
A question that will remain for sure unanswered.

Footnote: this question doesn't intent to put any doubt on the fact that piracy is illegal, bad for the industry and for customers.

[NeonSamurai]

@Neon

Those figures cant be just because of piracy, Xbox360 games are as much pirated as PC games. :hmmm:

No they are not pirated anywhere near as much due to the fact that you have to physically modify your xbox360 (or any other console) by soldering on a "mod" chip onto its main board to be able to play pirated (copied) games. At best maybe 5% of users have mod chips. This significantly limits how many pirate copies are downloaded (most figures put console piracy at around 5%-10% then the rate of PC piracy)

From that article Neal found (The data is just from one torrent site)
http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_4.html

Fallout 3 (released Oct. 30 2008):

PC Version:

Fallout 3-RELOADED--cgaurav™-- - 75,152
Fallout 3 Full-Rip Skullptura - 72,987
Fallout 3-RELOADED.[sitenameremoved.org] - 48,926
Fallout 3 [PC] - 45,130
Fallout.3-RELOADED.[sitenameremoved.com] - 12,226
Fallout 3-RELOADED [Full ISO/RPG/2008] - 12,110
FALLOUT 3-TRiViUM - 5,032


I counted almost 90 individual torrents for the full PC version of Fallout 3. The small sample listed above adds up to 271,563 downloads in a one month period.

XBox 360 Version:

Fallout 3 USA XBOX360-RUiNS - 6,649
Fallout 3 READNFO XBOX360-Seed4ME - 5,612
Fallout 3 PAL XBOX360-GLoBAL - 4,220
Fallout 3 GERMAN-0x0007 - 2,336
Fallout 3 USA PROPER RETAIL XBOX360-x360inT - 1,171


I counted around 30 individual torrents for the XBox 360 version of Fallout 3. The sample listed above adds up to 19,988 downloads in a one month period.

PS3 Version:

I couldn't find any Fallout 3 torrents which were labelled as or appeared to be for the PS3.


Call of Duty 4 (released Nov. 6 2007):

PC Version:

Call of duty 4 [PC-DVD] [English] 3876100 TPB - 205,277
Call of Duty 4 Modern Warfare Full-Rip Skullptura - 111,310
Call Of Duty 4 Modern Warfare [English][PCDVD] - 96,082
Call Of Duty 4 [PCFullGame][Eng-DvD][CrackIncl] KaYZ 2008 - 43,805
Call Of Duty 4-Razor1911 - 40,839
Call Of Duty 4-Razor1911 [sitenameremoved.com] - 21,456
Call Of Duty 4 - 18,295
++sitenameremoved com++-Call of Duty 4 DVD Modern Warfare - 17,212
Call of Duty(R) 4 - Modern Warfare - 12,300


I counted over 100 active torrents for the PC version of this game, a year after its release. The sample listed above adds up to 566,000 downloads in a one year period.

XBox 360 Version:

XBOX 360 Call Of Duty 4 Modern Warface [PAL] - 12,231
Call Of Duty 4 PAL FR XBOX360-PROPER - 11,758
[Xbox360-ITA]Call Of Duty 4- Modern Warfare - 9,702
Call Of Duty 4 Modern Warfare PAL FRENCH XBOX 360 - 9,277
Call Of Duty 4 Modern Warface PAL XBOX360-GAC[sitenameremoved.org] - 7,182
Call of Duty 4 [PAL - Spanish - XBOX360] - 5,194
Call Of Duty 4 ENG XBOX360 - 3,513


There were around 20 XBox 360 torrents for this game, and the sample listed above adds up to 58,857 downloads.

PS3 Version:

Call of Duty 4 Modern Warfare USA PS3-PARADOX - 24,185
Call of Duty 4 Modern Warfare PAL PS3-MRN () - 9,484
Call of Duty 4 Modern Warfare PAL PS3-MRN - 6,876
Call of Duty 4 Modern Warfare USA PS3-PARADOX[sitenameremoved.net] - 5,382
Call of Duty 4 Modern Warfare USA PS3-PARADOX[sitenameremoved.org] - 3,683
Call of Duty 4 Modern Warfare USA PS3-PARADOX[sitenameremoved.org] - 3,065


There were only 6 PS3-labelled torrents for this game, and I've listed all of them above, adding up to 52,657 downloads over the past year.

Then there is the call of duty: MW2 case. quoted from that article again.
http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_4.html
For 2009, the most pirated PC game as reported in this article (http://kotaku.com/5435876/report-the-most-pirated-games-of-2009) was Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. The PC version had a staggering 4.1 million downloads via torrents alone compared with an estimated 200,000 - 300,000 actual sales via retail and Steam, demonstrating that the most popular game of 2009 was also the most pirated, and more importantly, that the actual number of downloads for the most popular game is now almost three times as high as in 2008, signalling the rampant growth of piracy. It is also interesting to note that while COD:MW2 sold around 300,000 copies on PC and had 4.1 million pirated downloads, the console version sold in excess of 6 million copies during the same period according to this article (http://kotaku.com/5426474/report-modern-warfare-2-pc-us-retail-sales-about-170000-in-november), and yet had a fraction of the number of pirated downloads at around 970,000.


Then there is the "world of goo" case which is reporting 90% piracy rates (by comparing number of unique IP addresses connecting to the leader board vs number of copies sold). Its a real original and very good game that sells for 20$.
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/55906

I was going to reference a BSA study but in the end I decided not to as I consider their offered data far to flawed to do so, particularly in the amount of money they consider lost sales; they like to equate every single instance of piracy as being a lost sale at a 1:1 ratio which is beyond absurd, especially in poor countries. They also like to make other claims which also don't make much sense logically, and they are obviously heavily biased given they are the legal arm of the games industry.



Also, does that count all console sales? As in Wii, xbox360 and PS3 games combined? That would skew the figures a lot.

Yes that figure is all console games reguardless of type, it is a comparison of sales figures from pc (which have dropped by half) to console (which have doubled). Not sure why it skews the figures though.


I happened to wonder what influence has marketing over people behaviour, and piracy.

Around games, there is marketing. Ads in magazines, on websites, on some TV channels.
Goal: let you know about the game first, and second, also tempt you. Create new "needs".

This questions is quite "out of topic", sorry for that. But It came to my mind as I've read this topic (reading about house robbery, for which there is no marketing).
Marketing is logical from a sales perspective. What I wonder is if piracy raises following the same curve as sales thanks to marketing, or if it follows another curve.
A question that will remain for sure unanswered.

It is certainly possible that heavy duty advertising is driving up piracy rates by instilling a need for the person to posses the game (look at the COD:MW2 example above, that was a heavily marketed game). They may decide to pirate the game because they can't afford to get it but yet they must have it. This may then cause a slippery slope effect which leads to the person switching over entirely to piracy (why buy when I can just steal it and spend my money on other things).

You can certainly see the effect of mass advertising and hyping products just by walking along the street and seeing all the crap people have which they don't really need, yet are going broke over it to have it. But that is another topic.

[karamazovnew]

It would be nice to see the proportion in each country. You might find that most piracy occurs in countries where people don't actually consider buying consoles. Even more, I'd like to point out that since the major public sites have gone down, private torrent groups are the main method of downloading. One rule is that you need to have a ratio of upload, or you risk loosing membership. You wouldn't believe how many people with P4 and 512 MB RAM download new games just to increase their ratio to be able to continue downloading porn on blue-ray formats :har:.

[Bilge_Rat]

Then you will pay for a whole lot of "other people".
I still dont need that cop right there.

Down with it.
The more i see talk about it, the more i feel like kicking the dead horse or some stupd beancounter donkey in th butt.

This is my PC. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

http://www.imfdb.org/images/8/8f/FMJ-M14.jpg

I saw the movie. He shoots his drill sergeant and blows his head off........Is it because Ubi added Uplay to their games?.....:o






and to put all the Hysteria about DRM in perspective, how about this oldie but goodie...

Steam's DRM is the kind of DRM that open source advocates (http://www.eff.org/IP/DRM/) have nightmares about. It takes a technical stance that is firmly in favour of copyright holders. While this may be good for drumming up business, it also highlights some of Steam's and DRM's biggest flaws.

First of all, there is no allowance made for playing offline. If you don't have an internet connection then you can't play your game, even if it's a single player game that doesn't neccessarily need an internet connection. That is, until Valve decides to make a version of Steam that will work without a network connection.


http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/9/13/03945/7308

or this:

http://www.petitiononline.com/nosteam/petition.html

:ahoy:

[Task Force]

In the end, Unless the game company gives you a mysterous man in a black suit and tie with eatch each game download/CD piracy is still gonna happen... to a degree...