Dubai Hamas killing pledge by UK foreign secretary

[OneToughHerring]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8521246.stm

Anybody been following this? I'd imagine Brits have been. Ireland seems angry too, and I'd imagine Germany and France as well. Seems to me international law doesn't mean much to Israel.

'11 Europeans.' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/8517716.stm)

[Tribesman]

OK I am lost, we have serious ****e going on , countries "possibly" reneging on earlier agreements about identity fraud.
Countries breaking their own laws

But how can we blame the evil USA?
Come on OTH you have missed out on your main topic.
Its like Skybird complaining about Muslim EU Druids on midsummers eve in the middle of december:yeah:

[Jimbuna]

Developments if and when they arise are sure to be announced on international media.

I'm personally looking forward to learning the truth about this matter but there is the risk of a cover up if matters should be deemed as potentially damaging to the security and or integrity of a sovereign state.

Until more detail is announced I'm sure conspiracy theories will abound.

[Skybird]

Nothing wrong in targetted killing of terror leaders, but for Mossad standards the execution this time was lousy, if it really was like the media puzzles it together. This seems to be the tenor in Israeli media, too: the complains are against Mossad operation allowed to get caught on camera (but not the assassination, mind you), not against the killing of the terrorist.

[OneToughHerring]

Nothing wrong in targetted killing of terror leaders, but for Mossad standards the execution this time was lousy, if it really was like the media puzzles it together. This seems to be the tenor in Israeli media, too: the complains are against Mossad operation allowed to get caught on camera (but not the assassination, mind you), not against the killing of the terrorist.

So it would be ok for Hamas to kill, say, Netanyahu. Ok I get it now.

OK I am lost, we have serious ****e going on , countries "possibly" reneging on earlier agreements about identity fraud.
Countries breaking their own laws

But how can we blame the evil USA?
Come on OTH you have missed out on your main topic.
Its like Skybird complaining about Muslim EU Druids on midsummers eve in the middle of december:yeah:

Why is that? Have you been most impressed by my anger of the US? I don't necessarily hate them the most, I have a lot of hate to go around. Even more for Ireland if you so wish. I haven't really even gotten started on the Catholic mafia that controls your country and your corrupt government/nation.

[NeonSamurai]

Hmm I guess forged Canadian passports are not as popular as they one were.

[VipertheSniper]

Could someone please pass the popcorn?

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Nothing wrong in targetted killing of terror leaders, but for Mossad standards the execution this time was lousy, if it really was like the media puzzles it together. This seems to be the tenor in Israeli media, too: the complains are against Mossad operation allowed to get caught on camera (but not the assassination, mind you), not against the killing of the terrorist.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

[Oberon]

It's nothing new for Israel or MOSSAD, but it's unusual that it gets out like this. Rather a botched op I'd say.
However, the more interesting question is not how they did it but why they did it. I read an interesting claim by some 'Middle Eastern Intelligence Experts' in the Daily Fail today that hinted that MOSSAD was looking to whack any underground organisations which would form a basis for Iranian retaliation against Israel after an Israeli strike on Iranian nuclear installations. The fact that this op has been blasted open will probably put a red flag up in Iran and buy time for the Iranian program because the element of surprise in any attack carried out within the next month or so will have been lost. However, it's a clear indication that a second Opera is on its way. I wonder what the US position on it would be, I recall hearing somewhere before the election that the US was telling Israel not to do anything but I can't imagine the US not fist-pumping if a second Opera is successful but probably in private, whilst publicly condemning the use of force over negotiation, etc, etc, etc (the usual diplo-bull).
Of course, this was from the Daily Fail so it's probably a pretty unsafe guess but it does make a bit of sense and with Iran still marching forward towards nuclear status it's a matter of when, not if, Israel will reach out and whack Iran in the way they whacked Iraq and IIRC Saudi Arabia has already given a subtle nod to Israel for use of their airspace.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6638568.ece

Here's something I just found and might be worth a read:

http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/070305_iran_israelius.pdf :up:

[Morts]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Exactly

[Skybird]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

:nope:

Wishing to kill innocents undiscriminatingly, targetting civilians intentionally, and wanting to wipe out as many of them as possible; poisoning one's own youth and youngest chidlren with hate and bloodthirst and having utmost racism and hate-crime as regular children TV program; hiding behind women and children while firing at the enemy and hoping these human shoeilds get killed so thta oen can score in the picture war: that is no freedom fight, but is cynism, and is terror - no matter how much you try to distort it by relativising it until no evil is left anymore and the victim becomes the perpetrator.

But you are very much en vogue with your revolutionary mindset, I admit. It is so popular in the saloons these days.

[Skybird]

Hmm I guess forged Canadian passports are not as popular as they one were.

then only problem with these passports are that they picked real people's identities, bringing these unsuspicious innocents in danger. Beyond that, it is intel business as usual.

[FIREWALL]

So it would be ok for Hamas to kill, say, Netanyahu. Ok I get it now.



Why is that? Have you been most impressed by my anger of the US? I don't necessarily hate them the most, I have a lot of hate to go around. Even more for Ireland if you so wish. I haven't really even gotten started on the Catholic mafia that controls your country and your corrupt government/nation.


Why do you bring your HATE to a Gaming Website ?

All I see is a sick little boy that is allowed to play here.

[OneToughHerring]

:nope:

Wishing to kill innocents undiscriminatingly, targetting civilians intentionally, and wanting to wipe out as many of them as possible; poisoning one's own youth and youngest chidlren with hate and bloodthirst and having utmost racism and hate-crime as regular children TV program; hiding behind women and children while firing at the enemy and hoping these human shoeilds get killed so thta oen can score in the picture war: that is no freedom fight, but is cynism, and is terror - no matter how much you try to distort it by relativising it until no evil is left anymore and the victim becomes the perpetrator.

But you are very much en vogue with your revolutionary mindset, I admit. It is so popular in the saloons these days.

Actually it's very possible that Israel had a hand in the foundation and ascent of Hamas. Fatah had grown very strong and a counterweight was needed, and along came Hamas. But Israel couldn't make Hamas into a 'Israel-friendlier' version of Fatah, actually it kinda became the opposite.

As far as shooting at women and children etc., Israel leads the body count in that 'sport' by a mile so cut the sanctimonious BS.

[OneToughHerring]

Why do you bring your HATE to a Gaming Website ?

All I see is a sick little boy that is allowed to play here.

Big words (and I don't just mean font) coming from "Mr Brig". :DL

[FIREWALL]

Big words (and I don't just mean font) coming from "Mr Brig". :DL


I'd say something funny but the joke has already spoken. :haha:

[OneToughHerring]

I'd say something funny but the joke has already spoken. :haha:

And the bottle has been opened from the looks of it. :roll:

[Castout]

This doesn't make Dr Kelly's case any more right. :nope:

One was a military target that promoted violence the other was a peaceful civilian.

I'm not saying it was right but at least the target was not an innocent civilian

Just saying. . .

[FIREWALL]

And the bottle has been opened from the looks of it. :roll:

Cheap shots are all you got. :haha:

[Skybird]

A piece on which side Europe already has chosen to line up with, which also means which side it stands up against - Israel's.

http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/article/captain_renault_is_shocked_once_again/


While Europe commemorated International Holocaust Day last month, the
European Union is experiencing an explosion of modern anti-Semitism. Have
the lessons of murderous Nazi racial anti-Semitism been inculcated into
mainstream European opinion and action?
The results of the Jewish Agency’s report released in January showing global
anti-Semitism spiraling out of control – and of a German Bielefeld
University study in December documenting mushrooming hatred of Israel –
recall the memorable line in the film “Casablanca,” in which police Captain
Renault announces that Rick’s Cafe must be closed because of illegal
activity. “I’m shocked, shocked to discover that gambling is going on
here!’” says Renault, while being handed the proceeds of his gambling wins.
While some observers of Jew-hatred in Western Europe are not shocked by the
largest wave of anti-Semitism since the Hitler movement, many European
governments, policy makers and academics tend to feign shock like Renault or
simply cannot fathom that hatred of Israel is the most ubiquitous form of
contemporary anti-Semitism.
The Bielefeld study found that 41 percent of Europeans agreed with the
statement that Jews are exploiting the Holocaust to advance their own
interests, and 46 percent supported the contention that Israel in general
“is conducting a war of extermination against the Palestinians.”
The shift from the largely obsolete version of Nazi-based biological
anti-Semitism to the prevailing form of contemporary anti-Semitism was best
captured by the Swedish Social Democratic mayor of Malmo, Ilmar Reepalu. “We
accept neither Zionism nor anti-Semitism,” Reepalu said on International
Holocaust Remembrance Day, blasting the city’s small Jewish community for
not “distancing” itself from Israel during the country’s efforts to repel
Hamas rocket attacks during last year’s Operation Cast Lead war. Meanwhile,
the mayor has solidified an alliance with radical Islamic strands among the
Muslim population, which makes up 15 percent of Malmo’s 250,000 people.
The Jewish Agency report revealed that more acts of anti-Semitism took place
during the first three months of 2009 than in the entire year of 2008; in
France, 631 incidents were recorded during the first six months of 2009,
compared to 474 in all of 2008.
The report appears to reflect what many commentators in Europe have observed
over the years: a marriage between leftists and Islamic organizations that
aims to turn the Jewish state into an international punching bag.
European leftists frequently declare the empty slogan of “never again
fascism,” while championing anti-Semitic despotic groups and regimes such
as Hamas, Hezbullah and the Islamic Republic of Iran. Witness the example of
the vice president of the German Left Party, Sahra Wagenknecht, and her
fellow party members of the parliament.
When Israeli President Shimon Peres indirectly referenced the Iranian threat
and the need to stop the Islamic Republic’s drive to go nuclear during his
speech on Holocaust Remembrance Day to the German Parliament, Wagenknecht
and fellow German Left Party members Christine Buchholz, Heike Hänsel and
Sevim Dagdelen refused to participate in a standing ovation. They justified
their protest because Peres warned about the dangers of the Iranian regime
and because he participated in Israel’s self-defense wars.
Buchholz lead a hardcore faction within the Left Party that supported
Palestinian suicide attacks against Israel as a legitimate form of
“resistance.” Wagenknecht is an admirer of the ex-German Democratic
Republic’s Stalinist system, which refused – as part of its foreign policy
doctrine – to recognize Israel’s right to exist.
All of the Left Party members, of course, cynically cherish the notion of
memorializing murdered Jews. Wagenknecht issued a statement in early
February defending her snub of Peres: “My behavior does not mean in any way
that I withhold respect for the occasion of the speech, the commemoration of
the crimes of the Holocaust committed by the Germans. I bow in deep humility
to the victims of the Shoah.”
Yet what disturbs the Left Party – and it is not merely limited to members
of the German Left who participated in pro-Hamas and pro-Hezbullah rallies
–is the notion of Jews flexing their muscles to defend their national
security. With bitter irony, Eike Geisel, an undogmatic leftist author
(1945-1997), neatly summed up the problem: “The Jews, if they’re not dead,
should please suffer, admonish and warn, but not fight back.”
The lesson that many Germans fail to grasp within the context of the endless
series of Shoah remembrance events is “Pray for the dead, and fight like
hell for the living,” to invoke the American trade unionist Mother Jones.
Where are the Mother Joneses of Europe when it comes to stopping Iranian
anti-Semitism, the regime’s violence toward its civilian population and its
nuclear weapons threat?
All of this helps to explain why Germany’s only institute devoted to
researching anti-Semitism is slavishly devoted to dead Jews instead of
fighting to prevent harm to living Jews in Europe. Wolfgang Benz, the
scandal-plagued director of the Berlin Center for Research on Anti-Semitism,
spends his time documenting desecrated Jewish cemeteries in East Germany and
dangerously lumping murderous anti-Semitism together with bias against
Muslims. Benz argues, “The fury of the new enemies of Islam parallels the
older rage of anti-Semites against the Jews.”
Harvard-trained political scientist Daniel J. Goldhagen previously told me,
“Anti-Semites the world over have tried to stir further hatred of Jews by
equating Israelis and Jews with Nazis. Now the Berlin center, supposedly
devoted to the study of anti-Semitism, has abetted them by delegitimizing
telling the truth about the people with the most Nazi-like views of Jews:
the political Islamists.” One of the key manifestations of modern
anti-Semitism is equating the Jewish state with Nazi Germany. Just as the
Nazi regime was defeated and dissolved, the Nazi Germany-equals-Israel
parallel encourages the abolition of Israel.
The Berlin Center advises the German government on combating anti-Semitism.
Its decision to ignore the deadly cocktail of Islamic anti-Semitism and
left-wing anti-Semitism (read: modern anti-Semitism) does not bode well for
the security of Germany’s Jews or the so-called German-Israeli special
relationship. Benz’s reputation took a beating last month when he was
unrepentant about revelations that he had repeatedly honored his doctoral
supervisor Karl Bosl, who early in his career had been a hard-core Nazi
ideologue.
Absent an assertive, confrontational posture toward turning Israel and
Diaspora Jewry into a whipping boy, Europe will experience a flight of Jews
seeking refuge in Israel and the United States. But, unlike Captain Renault
in Casablanca, Europeans cannot claim they are “shocked, shocked” because
the anti-Semitic writing is clearly on the wall.

[Jimbuna]

Could someone please pass the popcorn?

It's a pity this thread is turning into a series of personal attacks....the original topic is current and of interest to so many of us regardless of our country of origin.

@Viper.....get your own popcorn, mine is already spoken for :DL



http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/6942/popcorncowtx0.gif

[CaptainHaplo]

I have to differ with Skybird on this one. While one country may be making an issue of this, the UK and Ireland both have been clear on they are just looking for information from israel, and as such this is no major issue for them.

Of course a Jewish group is going to say there is more Anti-Semitism out there. And yes - some Jews do use the holocaust to forward their own interests. The NAACP often does the same thing with slavery. NCLR uses the reality of the poor in Mexico to advance its own agenda on immigration. Caucasion advocacy groups (Caucasian club, College Republicans, etc) use unfair instances of affirmative action to show the double standard embraced by the politically correct. To act suprised that a group - regardless of who they are, would not use a major historical event to further their own agenda is to ignore human nature.

The only suprising part was the "46%" that see suicide bombings as legit "resistance". Makes me wonder how many of that 46% have a religious or cultural heritage that says so. Of course, without demographic info we don't know, but Sky is always talking about the influx of Muslims, so perhaps the 2 are linked?

[Tribesman]

While one country may be making an issue of this, the UK and Ireland both have been clear on they are just looking for information from israel, and as such this is no major issue for them.

Where did you get that from?
Just looking for information?
The people looking for "information" happen to belong to the police branch that deals with serious organised crime, its serious organised crime because its organised fraud and murder.
The UK and Ireland governments are also seeing it as a major issue because these are British and Irish government documents that are being forged..plus of course Israel has previously given assurances that it wouldn't forge these documents anymore.

The only suprising part was the "46%" that see suicide bombings as legit "resistance".
You will have to ask Sky about that as he must support such actions, in fact as far as he is concerned when it comes to waging war absolutely anything is acceptable.

Still look on the bright side, at least this time they managed to murder the person they wanted to murder and didn't murder the wrong people by mistake.

[Skybird]

I have to differ with Skybird on this one. While one country may be making an issue of this, the UK and Ireland both have been clear on they are just looking for information from israel, and as such this is no major issue for them.

The essay I linked and quoted is not a specific reply by the author to the Mossad disaster. It is hinting at a general trend in european policies in general. you see it every time you realise the massive disbalance in EU reactions to terror comitted by Hamas or Hezbollah (the Israelis are expected to take it without reacting while the EU makes some lame statements calling Palestinians to order), and the military reaction by Israel that always triggers outbursts of most angry reactions and tirades. You canot escape the impression that to many saloon-communists in the West, to the Eurocrats, the lefts and those who are traditionally anti-American anyway due to their notorious revolutionary '68 mindset Palestinian lives are so much more valuable than lives of just some damn Jews. The ME policy of the EU consists of just this_demanding Israelis to do nothign when they get bombed in busses or by rockets that both are inentionally aimed at their civilian population. But when the Israeli army strikes back, but does so with an almost hilarious ammount of effort being oput into warning the targetted persns and avoidjng civilians getting killed and aiming only the intended targets - then all diplomatic hell brakes lose, even more so if nevertheless civilisans accidentally get killed. what do these amok-running Jews think who they are...? Can't they just suffer and die in silence like it is to be expected from them since long? you see, this form of extreme double standards is one of the faces of this new anti-semitism. Another form is when some smart-headed supermind thinks the adequate way to minimise the Palestinian terror and wickedness is to point out that one person'S terrorist is another persons "freedom fighter". Here the victim becomes declared the perpetrator, and "up" becomes relabelled as "down". The Nazis did that, too.


The only suprising part was the "46%" that see suicide bombings as legit "resistance". Makes me wonder how many of that 46% have a religious or cultural heritage that says so. Of course, without demographic info we don't know, but Sky is always talking about the influx of Muslims, so perhaps the 2 are linked?

Not really. The Bielefeld study, one of two major studies with potentially immensly explosive content being released in Germany in the past 4 months - that'S why both get systemtaicvally hidden from the public, was done with a representative sample of the populations, which should mean that migrants and colonists are neither over- nor under-represented but should be represented in the sample in roughly matching proportions regarding their share in the total population. The bielefeld study is oignored as best as they can. the other study that I mentioned and is massively ignored, shows that migrants in Germany are massively overrepresented in the official federal stantistcs describing who depends on sopcial wellfare and who not. Of all native Germans, only around 4.1% live by so-called "Hartz-IV", as it is called here (4th stage of a wellfare reform invented by a manager named Hartz). but more than 8% of migrants. There are far less igrants than there are native germans, so these total numbers means that by several factors a bigger share of migrants live by wellfare, than Germans.

Ignoring unwanted federal statistics has tradition in the discussion in Germany. when federal crime statistics showed that migrants are massively overrepresented in crime, copared to Germans, criterions and procedures for these yearly startistics have been chnaged in following years, now there hardly is any discrimination anymore between migrants and native Germans, excusing this by avoiding "discirmination". but the wanted effect is that you cannot prove by statistics anymore that a several times as high share of migrants is criminal, than native Germans.

Isn't anti-discrimination a great thing?:yeah: And who could argue against "anti-discrimination!" (please raise and cheer and applaude for us being so very much against discrimination here) without showing that he is racist himself and discriminates all those poor handicapped potential citizens with migration background...?

If I ever should develope a cancer in my life, then it will be because of my anger about this underhanded wickedness of our politically oh so correct self-declared morale-apostles and Islam-friends. This cursed breed will drive me into my grave one day.

[Tribesman]

Only Sky could introduce a conspiracy theory on top of one of his conspiracy theories:har:
Studies are being systematicly hidden away which is why a small local zionist paper from thousands of miles away cannot write a report on them because they are too hard to find.

[Schroeder]

@Skybird

Well, but declaring the Israelis to be victims only isn't correct either. I'm pretty sure that France would be pretty pi$$ed too if Germany would start building settlements on their soil. How long do you think would they condone that before a few Le clercs and Rafales would "help" the settlers to de construct their houses again? I think both sides are constantly pouring gas into the fire down there.

[Skybird]

@Skybird

Well, but declaring the Israelis to be victims only isn't correct either. I'm pretty sure that France would be pretty pi$$ed too if Germany would start building settlements on their soil. How long do you think would they condone that before a few Le clercs and Rafales would "help" the settlers to de construct their houses again? I think both sides are constantly pouring gas into the fire down there.
On parts of the settlements issue you are right. However, the palestinians already could have had an agreement and treaty with Israel - SINCE MANY YEARS. they screwed up, because they wanted all, and thought that all Arab states' support would be theirs.

I never hid that I hold no special feelings for Israel, I do not defend it'S right for self-existence due to sympathy or because I think as a german I should do so, or any other of this sentimental stuff. I pragmatically do it because the foundign of Israel is more than two generations ago. you can't reverse the time without doing a comparable ammount of injustice AGAIN, but this time to the Israelis. Israeli state shouldn't not be there, but it is, and since long, and now we have to deal with it. Cancelling it's founding is no option.

Maybe that is no the kind of sympathetic lip confession diplomacy is so fond of, but it is a solid reason why I support Israel in real, not just by lip confession. You can reverse a state founding when it is 2 or 3 years ago - not 60 years.

Whether I think that Israel can strategically survive in the long term, is another thing. Nor do I tzhinbk foundign the state iof Israel in that place should have been done. Strategically, it was foolish. But for the time being I see no moral alternative to supporting it. And despite it's obvious flaws and problems with Jewish extremists, it still is a hundred times a more sane and reasonable place than any of it's neighbours in the region.

[OneToughHerring]

On parts of the settlements issue you are right. However, the palestinians already could have had an agreement and treaty with Israel - SINCE MANY YEARS. they screwed up, because they wanted all, and thought that all Arab states' support would be theirs.

Do you mean the proposal for a Palestinian state offered to Arafat in Camp David summit? I've had this discussion before with someone else, it seems that the pro-Israel camp will forever claim that the deal in question was a really good deal from the POV of the Palestinians and all problems are due to them not signing that deal. The Palestinians claim that it was infact a bad deal they did not want to sign.

I guess Palestinians don't have the luxury to not sign papers offered to them by the US and Israel. Kind of takes away the whole point of signing things, doesn't it?

Whether I think that Israel can strategically survive in the long term, is another thing. Nor do I tzhinbk foundign the state iof Israel in that place should have been done. Strategically, it was foolish. But for the time being I see no moral alternative to supporting it. And despite it's obvious flaws and problems with Jewish extremists, it still is a hundred times a more sane and reasonable place than any of it's neighbours in the region.

Egyptians and Jordanians would be happy to hear that, after all the concessions they've made and crap they've had to take from Israel.

[Oberon]

Israel, I perceive, militarily wise, as being somewhat akin to Finland in that it has been attacked on several occasions by forces outnumbering its own and then not only beaten off the attack but then gone on the offensive itself.
One should not underestimate them, and should definitely respect them.

I do not agree with all their movements, some of their tactics towards Palestine I find distasteful, as well as their assistance to Apartheid South Africa in acquiring nuclear devices however Israel is a nation which really shouldn't exist. It's been surrounded by mortal enemies since day one and yet some sixty-two years later, it's still going and still going strong.

[OneToughHerring]

Israel, I perceive, militarily wise, as being somewhat akin to Finland in that it has been attacked on several occasions by forces outnumbering its own and then not only beaten off the attack but then gone on the offensive itself.
One should not underestimate them, and should definitely respect them.

I do not agree with all their movements, some of their tactics towards Palestine I find distasteful, as well as their assistance to Apartheid South Africa in acquiring nuclear devices however Israel is a nation which really shouldn't exist. It's been surrounded by mortal enemies since day one and yet some sixty-two years later, it's still going and still going strong.

The relations between the UK and Israel have never really been particularily warm. This is partly due to the times when Palestine was governed by the British and the Jewish terrorists started killing off the British servicemen. They did snuff off quite a few, actually.

The idea of Israel being a kind of plucky, heroic nation that has 'earned' it's right to exist through military power is in some ways worrying. I don't think political problems should be solved in the battle field but rather through negotiations. The wars that Israel have won should be looked as parts of the cold war and it's proxy wars, not really as something that serves to give any kind of just agreement and settlement into the area.

But I am aware of this idea of Israel as the 'underdog' country, although I don't think it is an accurate description of the situation in the area, but I do have to say that I do resent the comparison of Finland and Israel.

[NeonSamurai]

Kind of hard to sit at the diplomatic table and negotiate peace when you are being invaded isn't it? Last I checked other then when Israel was formed, it didn't fire the first shot in any of these conflicts.

I honestly can't imagine any other western country being as controlled as Israel often is, given what happens there. Would the US, UK, Finland, or anywhere else sit around on its hands while its civilian centers (cities and towns) are being hit by mortar and rocket attacks by terrorist groups hiding in another country, a country which quietly condones and supports those attacks? I don't think so...

Sky is right, this is part of the new form of anti-semitism. Our societies think its perfectly alright to expect and demand that Israel and the Jews sit there and take what we never would in a second.

This doesn't mean Israel is a perfect country, and everything it does is good and just. But no country can hope to claim that.

One should also be wary of what they see and read..
Pallywood (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys) is the perfect example of that.

[OneToughHerring]

Being invaded and driven away from your ancestral living area, you mean, like the Jewish terrorists did to the Arabs living in British controlled Palestine? Yes, it was difficult for them to negotiate. Btw, many of these people are still alive, having lived their lives in the refugee camps which have become a kind of permanent fixture, as has Gaza, one of the most tightly populated areas in the world.

There's actually a lot of stuff you never hear about. The everyday goings on at an average controlling post in Israel is some pretty third world stuff. The Israeli military treats people badly, beats them or even shoots them with very little or no repercussions. This is all normal and goes on day after day. The walls and the watch towers and of course the extreme Israelis who have been allowed to burrow into the West bank and build settlements with absolutely no attempt being made to hand the West bank back as was agreed according to the treaties.

I would also say that being pro-Israel you're actually in the minority in Canada.

A big deal is made of "pallywood", as if a kid born in the refugee camps and who lives there would need some tv-show to hate the Israelis.

[NeonSamurai]

I had started writing a reply then I realized why bother, its not worth the time to smash apart the imaginary little world you live in.

[OneToughHerring]

I had started writing a reply then I realized why bother, its not worth the time to smash apart the imaginary little world you live in.

Lol, yea it is easier to just weasel out isn't it. :har:

Btw, for a moderator you kind of set a pretty bad example when it comes to polite discussion.

[Tribesman]

Last I checked other then when Israel was formed, it didn't fire the first shot in any of these conflicts.

Can you find the peace treaties from that first conflict?
In the absence of peace treaties these "other" conflicts after Israel were formed are still the same conflict.

Our societies think its perfectly alright to expect and demand that Israel and the Jews sit there and take what we never would in a second.


That is rubbish, people expect Israel to act within the law, same as they expect Britain, America or any other country to act within the law.
So as an example, would a country that decided to just execute someone make it onto the US State Depts. annual reports of very nasty countries who do things like carry out extra judicial killings?


One should also be wary of what they see and read
You mean like what you would read in a german blog running an opinion piece from an American pro-zionist newspaper saying that easily available studies in Germany are really being hidden as part of a global conspiracy?
As for the Jewish agencies report on spiraling incidents, well they became a bit of a joke when they made headlines about the dramatic rise in anti-semitism in Iceland.....which amounted to one incident of extremely dubious provenance.

[Foxtrot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFmG4tpbNf4

[CaptainHaplo]

OTH - lots of claims there you just stated about Israel. Got any documentation to back it up?

I ask because I know what some of those areas are like - having been there before. Personal experience tells me your simply throwing out more "herrings".

While I DO agree on the settlements issue, it was the UN that created the state of Israel, not a group of "jewish terrorists". Nice try, but facts show your talking bullcrap again. As for the refugees in the camps - Israel was partitioned in 1948 - meaning that any person alive at that time would be a MINIMUM of 62 years old today. There are not many 62 yr old and older suicide bombers are there? This is not being driven by the people who were removed from what is now Israel. The whole right of return issue is bull because Palestinians want the "right of return" to people who NEVER LIVED IN ISRAEL at any point in their lives. The people 62 years of age or older still living in refugee camps - that says something about the lack of their own people and government - since it is their own people and government that has failed them by not taking the last 60+ years to improve the situation. Instead of actually trying to dig their own areas out from under poverty and "third world status", the powers that have been for those 60+ years have been more focused on finding an external foe to rally the people against - because an external foe means internal issues don't need to be addressed.

Funny how the Palestinians want their own "homeland" - recognition as a state - yet the creation of a palestinian partition that they claim they want falls under the SAME UN partitioning that created Israel. Instead of taking their share of the pie and moving forward, they have spent 60+ years trying to be the bully (by killing Jews) and take the whole pie. Sorry - won't happen.

[OneToughHerring]

OTH - lots of claims there you just stated about Israel. Got any documentation to back it up?

Which points exactly?

And also, if I'm going to have to find proof for everything I say then it would only be logical if all of you would start doing so as well.

[August]

Personal experience tells me your simply throwing out more "herrings".

Of course he is.

Don't. Feed. The. Troll.

[OneToughHerring]

Of course he is.

Don't. Feed. The. Troll.

We're trying to have civilised discussion here and you butt in with your trolling. And of course the mods do nothing. :down:

[Bubblehead1980]

Guess it is time to weigh in on this one....

The basic premise is like my points on the Falklands.Israel has fought many wars over the years and won them all, Six Day War etc The weak sisters lost even though they were the aggressors yet they have continued to attack Israel via supporting terrorist groups like Hamas. Refusing to recognize their right to exist even though Israel has earned they right many times.Lets say the Colonies had lost the American Revolution, hell lets say we had lost a Second one, well then the US would not exist because we would be the weak sister, but we were not, we won the Revolution and managed to stay a country in the years that followed.

Now I don't like it that Mossad used REAL people's names etc because they put some completely innocent people in danger.However, the op was a success, they killed the target who being a member of Hamas, was a scumbag.Can not say the op was a failure because the act itself was not caught on video and there was no way to avoid being spotted by the hotel cameras.I mean if they had disabled them that wouldve caught attention or if they had taken out the security in the room watching the cameras, then they wouldve killed an innocent person.So they waltzed in like normal guests, snuffed this piece of garbage out and then left, pretty good operation, the only one killed was that target.

Israel is in a tough position, they want to and should attack Iran if they can prevent Iran from becoming a nuclear power.Obama is not exactly a friend of Israel, prob due to his Islamic ties, he has sympathy for the wrong people and prob would not have Israels back in the backlash they would get for a premptive strike.I just can not understand how any sane person, esp an American can be Anti-Israel? I remember Palenstinians dancing in the streets after 9/11/01.Although Iran has expressed they wish to wipe Israel off the map, I highly doubt Iran would directly attack Israel (or the US) with a nuke BUT could see them passing nukes on to terrorists so they could try to deny it.A direct nuke attack would provoke such a response, Iran would be finished.

People try to complicate things so much and that can be attributed to the cancer of Liberalism/Progressivism and the mindset they have bestowed on many people.Israel has earned the right to exist and has every right to defend herself, esp against the nutjobs in Iran.So honestly, no one should care that Israel offed some terrorist rodent, hopefully there will be many more.I hate that saying about one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.Sure that is the perception but there is right and wrong.American Colonists were freedom fighters.People in Iran who have been murdered and beaten for protesting their crackpot President and Islamic rule are freedom fighters and were were/are in the right.Palestinians and Al Qaeda, Hamas etc are TERRORISTS.They suicide bomb, recruit the impoverished, ignorant people who see no future because of their lack of knowledge to pick up arms and die for a cause they really don't understand other than the next life will be better than the one they have now and they are just WRONG.Not an opinion, just the black and white truth.

[CaptainHaplo]

Which points exactly?

And also, if I'm going to have to find proof for everything I say then it would only be logical if all of you would start doing so as well.

OTH - In the link below thread you make the claim that Iraq was about oil. A baseless accusation.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1277193&postcount=64 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1277193&postcount=64)

Here I answered you:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1277472&postcount=66 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1277472&postcount=66)

Note I quoted the sources of the numbers. Of course - some people are not interested in facts and truth.... And big suprise - you had no answer - because your not interested in facts or truth - instead your more concerned with bashing others.

As for my points in this thread - what you need a link to establish when Israel was founded?

http://www.gov.il/FirstGov/TopNavEng/EngSubjects/EngSIndependence/EngSIEstablished/ (http://www.gov.il/FirstGov/TopNavEng/EngSubjects/EngSIndependence/EngSIEstablished/)

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm (http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm)

Of course - a quick google search would have provided these. But notice that once again you have no response to the FACT that the "refugees" your talking about in camps would be at a MINIMUM - 61 years old at the time of the creation of Israel (had they been less than 1 year old at the time) - so the fact remains that its not the 60+ refugees who are making bombs and going into Israel to kill civilians.

Does OTH have an answer for that reality? Nope.

What about the outrage when civilians who just are trying to live their lives inside their own country get blown to bloody pieces? Well if they are Jewish - then does OTH have anything to say? Nope.

Now if he hears about, reads about or just plain makes up a story about a poor Palestinian who is crossing the border and gets beaten up, or even shot or killed - by gosh and by golly he is OUTRAGED!

Does he have an answer on why the leaders of the Palestinians haven't focused on helping those refugees, and instead have focused on trying to kill Jews instead? Nope.

Does he have an answer on why the "Right of Return" should be granted to people who never actually lived a day on the land that is now Israeli? Nope.

If he thinks the American actions in Iraq are about oil - do you think actual facts are going to change OTH's mind? NOPE

The UK doing something inside their own territorial waters and OUTSIDE the Argentinian legally agreed to boundaries - and OTH is FURIOUS.

Well OTH - you now can sit with Tribesman on my ignore list. He was getting lonely after all. A "herring" you really are.

[Skybird]

Israel has fought many wars over the years and won them all, Six Day War etc
By all reason, the Lebanon war in no way can be counted as a win. It was a defeat. None of the strategic objectives they were able to acchieve, their declared enemy was stronger short time after the war, then before the war.


Israel is in a tough position, they want to and should attack Iran if they can prevent Iran from becoming a nuclear power
High ranking leaders of the army as well as of the intelligence service have repeatedly indicated relatively clearly over the past 6 months to foreign press, that they have no illusions about Israel being able to attack Iran on its own, and take out that weapon program. They simply cannot. Not only because of the range, but because of the limited size of their air force, numerically. and it still is in serious doubt that conventional weapons exist to destroy those hidden, hardened structures whose precise target locations still seems to be unknown.

Training, motivation and technical advantages can compensate disadvantageous tactical situations and inferior number ratios only to a certain degree, and not beyond. Taking out the Iranian program without massive aid by the americans, is beyond Israel's reach.

[Tribesman]

Obama is not exactly a friend of Israel, prob due to his Islamic ties
Its Glenn Beck.:rotfl2:

I just can not understand how any sane person, esp an American can be Anti-Israel?
From a sane perspective, its easy. Israel should not exist, its just about the most stupid idea ever envisaged.
It breaks juist about every law it has ever signed up to and consistantly has its government ignoring its own courts and its own constitution. Its military repeatedly has to order its troops to stop doing war criomes then makes excuses for doing war crimes again and again.
As for why an American might be anti-Israel...well there is the cost, he not only pays a fortune to support the country he also has to pay other countries to be nice.
Just about every promise Israel has made to America has been broken.
Espionage, as though its not bad enough that you give lots of military assistance and information to Israel they also steal it off you and put spies all over the place.
I suppose an american might take issue with the fact that some of the crazy settlers from the states who block every attempt at peace used to be second on the list of nasty domestic terrorists in doing bad **** in america.
And of course talking of terrorism, wasn't it Israel who did terrorist bombings on American property in Egypt so they could try to blame it on the arabs.
Funny really, in that spate of terrorist bombings against American interests, the Israeli terrorists were posing as foriegners too, French, British German

Israel has fought many wars over the years and won them all,
If it had won them then it would have peace treaties with all those countries and recognised borders.

[Tribesman]

you now can sit with Tribesman on my ignore list
Oh no the young earth creationist put me on ignore...I am heartbroken:har::har::har:

[Bubblehead1980]

Calling me Glen Beck, was that supposed to be an insult? Trust me it's not, if you called me Keith Olberman then I would be insulted.I typically do not care for guys like Beck but Beck works hard and has been to the bottom and worked his way to the top.The Left hates him because he exposes things.Van Jones, an admitted Communist had a pretty high up position in the Obama Admin until Beck put so much pressure that Jones resigned.Anita Dunne who admitted she admired Mao, gone because of Beck.Name a commentator who has had that much influence other than Beck, you can't.

I was simply stating you can not deny that Obama being the son of a muslim, step son of musilm, having lived in a predominantly muslim country(Indonesia) attended Islamic schools when younger does not affect his judgement and views on issues dealing with muslim.Obama's actions towards Israel have not been friendly, they have not been supportive, his admin has been pressuring Israel to give in to the Palestinians which is WRONG.This sob has sucked up to enemies and ignored our Allies.
Tell me why you think Israel should not exist? They have fought off multiple enemies over the years and are continuing to fight Hamas etc they do have the right to exist and have earned the right.

[Tribesman]

Calling me Glen Beck, was that supposed to be an insult? Trust me it's not
I know you think it isn't.
But.
From a sane perspective,
Beck is a complete joke.
The Left hates him because he exposes...
Its because he is such a joke that people love him, he is even better than Palin when it comes to making a fool of himself.
I was simply stating you can not deny that Obama being the son of a muslim, step son of musilm, having lived in a predominantly muslim country(Indonesia) attended Islamic schools when younger does not affect his judgement and views on issues dealing with muslim.

I see where you are coming from, that old angle was introduced in 2007, it was thoroughly trashed within days, it is still running round in those crazy conspiracy chain e-mails, it doesn't stop people like Beck playing on it and people who don't realise how dumb Beck is from believing it.

Obama's actions towards Israel have not been friendly
Obamas actions have been mixed, Israels actions have been mixed, same as it was under Bush...same as it has always been.
his admin has been pressuring Israel to give in to the Palestinians which is WRONG.
Errrrrr...the charter which says you can't take land by force was drawn up at the insistance of who?
the law that says people living somewhere have rights was drawn up by who?
The resolution about settling the conflicts were drawn up by who?
The resolution about what to do with Palestinians was drawn up by who?
The agreement to stop expanding illegal setlements was negotiated by who with who?
Your problem is that you appear to not know much about the history of Israel and know even less about US/Israeli relations.

Tell me why you think Israel should not exist?
errrrr....its just about the most stupid idea ever envisaged.
They have fought off multiple enemies over the years and are continuing to fight Hamas etc they do have the right to exist and have earned the right.
Really ? where are its borders to be drawn then? what is to be done with people who live there who Israel don't want within their borders?

Oh and one thing Haplo is consistantly ignoring as it weakens his point very badly, he talks of refugees and right of return. What of the refugees from territory occupied in later events ? What about the refugees within Israel since the creation of the state and those who were made refugees within the state at later dates through government actions?

[OneToughHerring]

15 more suspects named in the case. They really had the whole congregation gang up on one guy.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/02/24/uae.murder.plot/index.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/8534303.stm

[Bubblehead1980]

I know you think it isn't.
But.

Beck is a complete joke.

Its because he is such a joke that people love him, he is even better than Palin when it comes to making a fool of himself.


I see where you are coming from, that old angle was introduced in 2007, it was thoroughly trashed within days, it is still running round in those crazy conspiracy chain e-mails, it doesn't stop people like Beck playing on it and people who don't realise how dumb Beck is from believing it.


Obamas actions have been mixed, Israels actions have been mixed, same as it was under Bush...same as it has always been.

Errrrrr...the charter which says you can't take land by force was drawn up at the insistance of who?
the law that says people living somewhere have rights was drawn up by who?
The resolution about settling the conflicts were drawn up by who?
The resolution about what to do with Palestinians was drawn up by who?
The agreement to stop expanding illegal setlements was negotiated by who with who?
Your problem is that you appear to not know much about the history of Israel and know even less about US/Israeli relations.


errrrr....its just about the most stupid idea ever envisaged.

Really ? where are its borders to be drawn then? what is to be done with people who live there who Israel don't want within their borders?

Oh and one thing Haplo is consistantly ignoring as it weakens his point very badly, he talks of refugees and right of return. What of the refugees from territory occupied in later events ? What about the refugees within Israel since the creation of the state and those who were made refugees within the state at later dates through government actions?


Again my question, what other commentator has had that power? None Personally, I think Beck goes over the top sometimes and attribute that to a lack of formal education BUT the man makes some very valid points and knows his stuff because of self motivation, knowledge is power.The left tries spin as conspiracy because they know he is speaking the truth.Beck goes against the other party as well.Beck is much more intelligent and in tune with things than say Maddow or Olberman.One thing I do admire about Beck is he's been at the bottom of the barrel and has made it to the top and is making a difference.You did not say why you think he is a joke but pretty obvious MOST people do not think he is a joke? I dislike Palin as well, so hey we actually agree on something.

The "old angle" was not an angle, it is a legitimate question that was raised but was swept under the rug because many in media felt it was not PC and would hurt their progressive wet dream's chances.A person's upbringing etc highly influences their views later in life.Truth is Obama's father was a muslim, step father was, he did live in Indonesia and did attend an Islamic school.That was openly acknowledged.So here is a guy from a broken family who leaves the US spends some formative years in a predominately muslim country, at an Islamic school then comes back to live with his grandparents.Then after time becomes the most Liberal Senator(when he actually voted) and somehow managed to become President who in turn is not friendly towards traditional Allies like Israel, but has no problem bowing to a Saudi King or playing nice with jagoffs like Hugo Chavez.Now I do not believe Obama is a practicing muslim, I believe he is an atheist myself, read his books.I am an atheist so pretty easy to spot them, even ones who do not want to admit it.Unfortunately the media was all caught up with Obama for some reason and did not vet him and when things came out that should have ruined his chances like the Reverend Wright thing, media gave him a pass.The "unwashed masses" liked him, prob because just tired of Bush, I was one of them but supported McCain because no way in hell should someone so far to the Left be President.


I know quite a bit about US/Israel relations but do not claim to be an expert.The charters are basically meaningless documents, sort of meant as an appeasement to look like working towards peace, it's politics.Hell there is a law in most states that says that Adultery is illegal and one can be arrested for it, but it is not enforced, same thing.I said I am an atheist so have an objective view, most people's views are influence by religion.I support an opressed people who have proven to not be the weak sister in the area as they have literally fought for their right to exist since day one.The conflict could be simply solved if muslims would just accept they have lost to Israel time and time again and just leave them alone, but that won't happen because some idiots just do not know when to quit.

Why do you think Israel is the "most stupid idea ever envisaged"

Personally, I don't care about the refugees you speak of, as another poster pointed out(think it was on this topic or may have been elsewhere) life is not fair, don't abuse them but when you are the weak sister, you kind of have to deal with what comes your way until you can change it.Plenty of muslim countries in the world, unfortunately.

We may rarely agree but one thing we do agree on, Palin is just :damn:

[Bubblehead1980]

15 more suspects named in the case. They really had the whole congregation gang up on one guy.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/02/24/uae.murder.plot/index.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/8534303.stm



Do you really care that Israel offed a Hamas leader? So they took out a scumbag, big deal.My problem is they used names of real people who had nothing to do with it and got them involved in a mess they had nothing to do with it.However, they did get rid of someone from Hamas.

[OneToughHerring]

Do you really care that Israel offed a Hamas leader? So they took out a scumbag, big deal.My problem is they used names of real people who had nothing to do with it and got them involved in a mess they had nothing to do with it.However, they did get rid of someone from Hamas.

Well I don't really know what Israel's motives for this assassination were, exactly. I do know that in the past the assassinations have only resulted in backlashes and then Israel has struck back etc. etc ad infinitum. So I see this as a negative act which will most likely be avenged and then the vendetta deepens and becomes more convoluted. I'd like peace in the area but I also give full human rights to the Palestinians as well.

I'd say that although there are murderers on both sides, so far the Israelis have a far higher body count and they admit this themselves, including women, children, elderly, etc. So according to purely mathematical count, the Israelis have more blood in their hands.

[Tribesman]

The "old angle" was not an angle, it is a legitimate question that was raised but was swept under the rug because many in media felt it was not PC
It was not swept under the rug and was dealt with, its wingnut conspiracy crap.
Personally, I don't care about the refugees you speak of, as another poster pointed out(think it was on this topic or may have been elsewhere) life is not fair, don't abuse them but when you are the weak sister, you kind of have to deal with what comes your way until you can change it.
So you clearly support suicide bombings then.
The charters are basically meaningless documents
Remember that next time your government cries foul.
The conflict could be simply solved if muslims would just accept they have lost to Israel time and time again
you just said people should keep fighting till they win.

Why do you think Israel is the "most stupid idea ever envisaged"

Because it makes no sense at all.

I am an atheist so pretty easy to spot them, even ones who do not want to admit it.
errrr......From a sane perspective, :har:

BTW
I know quite a bit about US/Israel relations but do not claim to be an expert.
you don't have to be an expert, even some basics would be a start.
When you claim the current administration is suddenly working for Palestine and against Israel then you might be able to show how it isn't doing exactly the same and following the same policies as all the other administrations have for the past 50 years.
Which policies interestingly enough stem from when the US screwed over two of its allies who were allied with Israel when they attacked another US ally(which happened to be the country where Israel had been doing terrorist bombings against America)

[CaptainHaplo]

Bubblehead - dangit ya quoted tribeman - and the ignore won't ignore quotes. Now I have to slap tribesman's "logic" back into its fairy foo foo world from with it arose.

Oh and one thing Haplo is consistantly ignoring as it weakens his point very badly, he talks of refugees and right of return. What of the refugees from territory occupied in later events ? What about the refugees within Israel since the creation of the state and those who were made refugees within the state at later dates through government actions?

Note that there is the admission of "later events" - meaning events like the Six Day war, or the Yom Kippur war. Both were conflicts in which Israel was forced to defend itself from aggressive neighbors, and resulted in territorial gains in the Sinai and the Golan Heights. Or maybe he means the 2006 Lebanon war, in which Hezbollah fired rockets into Israeli border towns and attacked a Israeli border patrol? Yes - all these events caused the displacement of civilians - but in every case the "refugees" were created because ARABS attacked (economically or militarily) Israel first - and then lost their A$$. The Arabs didn't care who got displaced, as long as they could kill Jews. And of course - some of these refugees are the same ones that watched Hezbollah launch the rockets, both that time and many times before - and didn't do a thing to stop it. But when they suddenly lose THEIR homes to an Israeli response, everyone is supposed to go "poor refugees". They hold a culpability in such attacks. They sided with those who wanted to kill others, but when that same action comes home to roost, they want to play victim. Sorry - but that double standard doesn't fly. The "refugees" in those cases abrogated their "right of return" when they chose to be complicit in the murder of other people.

Thats reality and what real life is like. Feel free to let tribeman return to his land of unicorns and other fantasy now though....

[Tribesman]

The usual reading problems from Haplo.
Nothing new there.
Now I have to slap tribesman's "logic"
how can a cretinist use the word logic?:har:
Still as he doesn't understand the words refugee or rights either there is nothing much that can be done to educate him.
Note that there is the admission of "later events"
Yes later events which mean his talk of 60 year olds is nonsense.
Both were conflicts in which Israel was forced to defend itself from aggressive neighbors
Yes Israel never does anything wrong.
but in every case the "refugees" were created because ARABS attacked (economically or militarily)
Certainly Israel would not attack militarily and they would never dream of doing anything economically.

resulted in territorial gains in the Sinai and the Golan Heights
Errrrr ...Israel signed up to a law that states quite clearly it cannot make territorial gains through conflict. Which is why Israel lacks recognised borders.
in which Hezbollah fired rockets into Israeli border towns and attacked a Israeli border patrol?
What border?????????


And of course he avoids entirely the thing he quotes
What about the refugees within Israel since the creation of the state and those who were made refugees within the state at later dates through government actions? .
Internal refugees, plenty of stuff out there about them and their treatment. Those are the people who stuck with the state and have been getting screwed by the state ever since.
Its amazing how someone can link to Ami Isseroffs work and still have such a biased closed minded view. But maybe that view comes from being a fundamentalist who takes a selective literal interpretation of scripture

[Bubblehead1980]

Has anyone ever figured out what was put in the Libeal Kool-Aid? Must been some good stuff if they can still function but "exist" in the make believe world where the actual good guys are the bad guys and idealogy defies reality:haha:

[Tribesman]

What you don't understand Bubblehead is that the goodguys badguys line is just empty crap from people who have little understanding of subjects.
Its your ideology and lack of understanding reality that are on display here , that has been evident ever since you said
I just can not understand how any sane person, esp an American can be Anti-Israel?
it shows that you have no noticable knowlegdge of the actual history of the situation and no understanding of international politics.
You started with a false premise and obviously were unable to rationalise it as you had just grabbed the "idea" with no thought of the reality of it

It does explain why you love Beck so much...Glenn Beck the man who says what people who don't think are thinking.

[CaptainHaplo]

Bubblehead, its not so much of a "good" vs "bad" - as just like in any situation there is a mix of both on all sides. There are reasons some Americans are anti-israeli. Some are anti-Semetic, some don't understand why people can't just get along, and some cannot fathom why Israel is such an important ally for hte US. On top of it, there are those who come to the conclusion that just because they hear about Israel in some way whenever something happens in the Middle East (even if its just a speech by some guy who claims they must be wiped out) - they get an impression that all the problems in the ME are because of Israel - and thus cultivate a negative view.

The reality is that no country is perfect, but Israel actually shows tremendous restraint in dealing with its hostile neighbors.

As for Skybird's assertion that Israel cannot take out Iran's nuclear program, I would have to say that he makes that claim based purely on publicly available data, and that there is alot more that the public never sees. Can Israel take out Iran's nuclear program if they felt they had no choice? Absolutely. Because at the end of the day, the reality is that Israel COULD, if it felt its survival was necessary (and they will feel that way if Iran gains a true nuclear ability) take out not just the Iranian nuclear program - but all of Iran. Can they stop the process cold with conventional weapons - no. But they can do what they have done in the past - and set the project back significantly. Ultimately - whether this time or decades down the road - there WILL be a nuclear exchange in the Middle East. If it doesn't involve Israel, it will involve Pakistan.

[Bubblehead1980]

You say I have no understanding because because I disagree with you When it comes to Israel it is a good guys vs bad guys.The Left always seems to be on the wrong side.They complain when terrorists are waterboarded(not torture by the way) they complain when the police shoot some thug who had a gun.They complain when we take the fight to the terrorist instead of waiting around to get hit again like we did under Clinton.Yes I simplified to good vs bad but its reasonable.The Left villifies Israel when it's the Muslims who create problems because of their backwards mentality.They fail to see it is good guys vs bad and they are on the wrong "team"

Again, I am not a huge Glen Beck fan but he does make valid points, he does have influence.Lefties hate this and have no valid arguments against him so just try to disparage him.I will admit even Keith Olberman makes valid points now and then but he is a bag-o-douche about 90% of the time.I am a right leaning independent, have been pushed a bit more to the right because of the election of Obama, pretty much the most dangerous man elected.I knew this long before heard Beck say it btw, was not difficult to see, just read his books and did some other research.

People just make these issues so much more complicated than they are.Israel declared it's independence back in I believe it was May 1948, Arab nations attacked next day.Since then Israel has fought several wars such as 6 day war etc which they won.This means Israel gets to call the shots.They occupy territories beyond the original borders correct? so they occupy land they took after winning a war they didnt start, hmm thats how it goes.The arabs are the weak sisters, they lost.What are they supposed to just give it back ? NO WAY.Now that as before is a simplified explanation but its the truth, no ideology clouding things on this end.

Bottom line, who cares if Israel assasinates a member/leader of Hamas etc

[HunterICX]

You say I have no understanding because because I disagree with you When it comes to Israel it is a good guys vs bad guys.The Left always seems to be on the wrong side.They complain when terrorists are waterboarded(not torture by the way) they complain when the police shoot some thug who had a gun.They complain when we take the fight to the terrorist instead of waiting around to get hit again like we did under Clinton.Yes I simplified to good vs bad but its reasonable.The Left villifies Israel when it's the Muslims who create problems because of their backwards mentality.They fail to see it is good guys vs bad and they are on the wrong "team"

Good Guys, Bad Guys...it's something to make it sound better while it is just a Evil against a lesser Evil. In a fight there is no good there is no bad...that crap you read in Fantasy stories.

Left villifies Israel when it's the Muslims who create the problems....

let me give you a wake up call, what if some group of people from a different nation, no matter who takes up half your country and declare independence and the whole world allows it?

and I have to say its just a small % of the Muslims that causes the problems....the isue is the rest of who lives there has to pay the price.
It's also that when generally both sides want to call it enough its the small groups that do not agree that light the conflict back up.
but I wouldn't dare to say what I would have done growing up in a country that is torn up in half because someone think it's in their right to call it their own when it has been ours.

Don't think I'm left at all or in a position to judge Israel or Palestine, but the problem of Israel is far more complicated to just point you finger at one side of it and blame them alone.

---

People just make these issues so much more complicated than they are.Israel declared it's independence back in I believe it was May 1948, Arab nations attacked next day.Since then Israel has fought several wars such as 6 day war etc which they won.This means Israel gets to call the shots.They occupy territories beyond the original borders correct? so they occupy land they took after winning a war they didnt start, hmm thats how it goes.The arabs are the weak sisters, they lost.What are they supposed to just give it back ? NO WAY.Now that as before is a simplified explanation but its the truth, no ideology clouding things on this end.

I would like to see you say this if it where your own country.


Bottom line, who cares if Israel assasinates a member/leader of Hamas etc

I don't, the Hamas are a bunch of scumbags, good riddance if you ask me....
but I must say it was a messy job they pulled.

HunterICX

[Skybird]

As for Skybird's assertion that Israel cannot take out Iran's nuclear program, I would have to say that he makes that claim based purely on publicly available data, and that there is alot more that the public never sees. Can Israel take out Iran's nuclear program if they felt they had no choice? Absolutely. Because at the end of the day, the reality is that Israel COULD, if it felt its survival was necessary (and they will feel that way if Iran gains a true nuclear ability) take out not just the Iranian nuclear program - but all of Iran. Can they stop the process cold with conventional weapons - no. But they can do what they have done in the past - and set the project back significantly. Ultimately - whether this time or decades down the road - there WILL be a nuclear exchange in the Middle East. If it doesn't involve Israel, it will involve Pakistan.

You do not correctly recall the complete opinion I hold over this. I stick to the claim that you cannot bomb a target whose precise coordinates you do not know, and that Israel has not the conventional means to take out the Iranian program all by itself. And you may recall that I repeatedly said - and sometimes took Flak for it - that if one really wants to destroy that program, one probably needs small nukes. Then Israel could do it, yes. If they would survive as a state, is someting different.

Becasue that is an option that in a first strike scenario is not available to Israel. It would mark the beginning of it's national suicide. Internal riots both by a split Jewish public as well as the Palestinian subgroup living in Israel, as well as outrage and according consequences from the Muslim outside, would pressure Israel beyond breaking point. All thw world, and very much so all of europe, would attack and isolate Israel. Civil war inside Israel is the most likely outcome. Hostile reactions by neighbours with which it maintained a state of non-violent cooperation, is extremely likely - these nations themselves could probably not surive if they do not give in the the pressure of the street and turn against Israel. Israel can use its nukes only in case of being attacked first. I also wonder if with their small number of warheads they really have the diversity of nuclear weapons to select that size of warheads needed to take out those bunker-installation. We do not want to see huge mushroomclouds marking where once a city stood. We need small specialised nuclear warheads designed to take out such subterranean structures. While I say that without nukes I see little chance to destroy that program, I do not see the military need to nuke Persian cities and masskill the civil population there.

Some years ago there were reports that the Pentagon has started to develope nuclear bunker-busting bombs, so-called mini-nukes. I wonder what their destruction capacity is, and what has become of that project. I remember that Rumsfeld took much fire when announcing it. I seem to recall that the program officially has been stopped, but that means nothing.

the use of nukes, no matter what size, will come at the cost of a heavy political and economic fallout. Stockmarkets will go insane. Tensions in the whole ME will skyrocket. Hostility towards the US and Israel will steeply climb to massive heights, and terror groups will have a propaganda argument why they may want to try nuclear attacks themselves: "See, the forces of Satan did it first". The chinese reaction will be massive, not militarily, but financially - finances and economic ties are their primary weapon, and america is in an extremely vulnerable position for financial and economic warfare. Still, america is the only possible actor to carry out nuclear missions against key facilties of the Iranian weapon program, and survive the political fallout. China will oppose using nukes, and will love to seeIran challenging the West. Russia will not do it. Israel would commit suicide doing it. France and Britain also will not do it, and possibly do not have the specialised weapon design needed (Polaris - or have they Tridents now? - SLBM warheads hardly can be described as the ideal solution for the job described).

the alternative to the "surgical" nuclear destruction of key facilities that by conventional means cannot be reached and/or destroyed, is indeed the unlimited destruction scenario, using big ICBMs to turn the places into radiating hellholes for long time to come. Or the less spectacularly implemented targetted intoxication of the research sites (mind you some of them are hundreds of squarekilometers in size, an area in which the subterranean targets you are after are hidden) with small dirty bombs or whatever, making the area unaccessible for decades to come. Such an intoxication nevertheless would probably reach the ground water and travel with the hot, dry winds and sand particles, reaching the civilian population centres as well, and again causing a huge mass killing. I personally think that small nukes penetrating deep into the earth before going up, are the best solution to ensure the destruction of the target, whith radioactive pollution at the lowest possible level. Since even a bomb drop from high alltitude for physical reasons will not let any projectile penetrating deeper than, if I remember correctly, 12 or 15 meters, even such an explosion will cause aerial pollution, but I assume it is better than nothing. In this latter scenario I can imagine the cost of civilian life and health beeing smaller than in a scenario of months of conventional aerial warfare and cluster bombing suspicious possible target locations with huge bombs conventionally. In such a war, we need to accept that civilians will be killed as a side-effect where they stand between us and the target, you cannot avoid it - but there is no need to intentionally target them elsewhere as well.

It is in any case a scenario I do not like. but if you are in a situation where you are confronted with two or more unacceptable options, then put priority on serving your most urgent, most imminent needs. The destruction - not the delay - of that weapon program, and the destruction of the Persian know-how, ist such an urgent need and priority. I do not support any scenario where the goal only is to "delay", because then sooner or later we will be in the same situation again, but then the tough decisions will be even harder to make, and the unity of nations standing up against Iran (if there is any unity worth to be called that...), will be even smaller than now. Also, I cannot justify to myself to will such a huge destruction of so many people getting killed, and cannot justify to send our own people into fire for just delaying the program where at the same time we have the chance to shut it down once and forever. I imagine that I would have had kids and one day would need to tell them why I accepted a war, and even accepted to use nukes in it. that simple trick is an easy safeguard against any hooray-attitude. It's bad enough to speak for war, but if you do it, be sure of your motives, that you can justify them, and be determined. Don't hurt but kill the objective. The objective is the iranian weapon program, both wearheads and carrier systems. Don't delay it - destroy it. To acchieve that, use as little force as possible, but as much force as is needed to guarantee acchieving the mission objectives. Using nukes I see as inevitable as long as we do not get knowledge about new conventional bombs able to replace them in the intended role. "Nuking Persian cities" I do not see as a need, nor as desirable. We must not do it as long as a vital, critical target is not built directly underneath it and there is no other way to destroy it.

[Tribesman]

You say I have no understanding because because I disagree with you
I say you have no understanding because you demonstrate no understanding.
For example
When it comes to Israel it is a good guys vs bad guys
Three people in the last couple of posts have pointed out that your appraoch there is nonsense.
They complain when terrorists are waterboarded(not torture by the way)
It is torture, if the US calls it torture when other couintries do it then it cannot be denied that it is torture.
The only people who would insist that it isn't torture are those who consider complicated issues in a simplistic goodguys/badguys manner and take the blinkered appraoch that whatever they do they are always the goodguys.
they complain when the police shoot some thug who had a gun.
Do they?:rotfl2:
They complain when we take the fight to the terrorist instead of waiting around to get hit again like we did under Clinton.
Clinton????isn't that the fella that set up the deal with the French for bombing terrorists in Yemen.
As far as I recall the only serious objections from anywhere about the war on terror have been about the effectiveness of certain action, the legality of certain aspects...oh and the idiots wasting time and effort by invading Iraq over a pile of lies.

Yes I simplified to good vs bad but its reasonable
If it was reasonable the reasoning would stand up.
It hasn't stood up at all,though I think a lot of that is due to your simplistic approach to a topic you seem to know very little about.
People just make these issues so much more complicated than they are.
Yes the middle east and the long running arab-Israeli conflict are not complicated:rotfl2:
Israel declared it's independence back in I believe it was May 1948, Arab nations attacked next day.Since then Israel has fought several wars such as 6 day war etc which they won.This means Israel gets to call the shots.They occupy territories beyond the original borders correct? so they occupy land they took after winning a war they didnt start, hmm thats how it goes.The arabs are the weak sisters, they lost.What are they supposed to just give it back ? NO WAY.Now that as before is a simplified explanation but its the truth, no ideology clouding things on this end.

There is very little in there which is actually true, it isn't really ideology that is clouding things that end its an almost complete ignorance of the topic.
I would suggest you start with some basics. Use the link Haplo provided and just run though the "brief history" section first, it should give you some of the basic knowledge that you are clearly lacking.

[CaptainHaplo]

Bubblehead - first of all understand that I am a staunch supporter of Israel, for both moralistic as well as strategic reasons. However, it is a bit more complex than your indicating, though I am glad you recognize your simplifying it.

Ultimately, both sides have done things that violate the peace. The expansion of settlements by Israel is just as much a violation as a rocket attack by palestinians. However - there is a big difference MORALLY between the two. One is an act that involves building houses and settling an area that has no people in the immediate area (think finding an open, unused area and building your own little community) vs the willful and intentional killing of another human being. The struggle I think you have, and I have had it in the past, is how people can claim that the first action is "wrong" but the second action is "justified". The answer to that is simple - an unwillingness to recognize that the intentional targetting for extermination of civilians is morally wrong.

Hunter - I understand where your going with the whole "if it was your country what would you say" - but I have to point out that when Israel was created - it was NOT the country OF the palestinians - nor was it controlled by any arab state. In 1917, "Palestine" was created, but was not an independant state. Rather, in accord with the League of Nations declarations and the Balfour declaration, Palestine was governed by, and part of, the British Empire. At no time in modern history have the Palestinians EVER had an autonomous country. When Israel was created, the land area used was BRITISH - and Britain immediately recognized the State of Israel. It was THEIR land, not the arabs, to turn over to Israel. It is also important to note that it was intended to set up a Palestinian nation as well, but that has STILL not happened because the Arabs are unwilling to accept that they, acting like spoiled chidren, didn't get ALL the land. It was not the Jews that displaced them - Britian CONQUERED large parts of the Middle East, and agreed to the creation of Israel. If anyone has a claim to the land of Israel, it would be the British. Unless of course you want to go all the way back to ancient history - which is where the land changed hands multiple times, between the nation of Israel and a large number of varied arab nations.

Perhaps someone should claim they are Phoniecian (sp?) and thus they could have a legal claim to the entire southern and eastern coast of the Med, and run everyone else out? Of course not.

Ultimately, if the Palestinians wanted their own state, they could have it - but instead they want to dictate and overturn the legal mandates and actions of almost 100 years, simply to kill Israelis - and much of those decisions DO have to do with religion.

[Tribesman]

When Israel was created, the land area used was BRITISH - and Britain immediately recognized the State of Israel.
It was mandated territory not British.
Mandated territory is the same as territory under trust, it is administered by an appointed country of behalf of the residents of the land.
Britain did not immediately recognise the State of Israel, the first State to do so was the Soviet Union 3 days after the declaration of independance(or 2 days after the proposed partician was scheduled)
It was THEIR land, not the arabs, to turn over to Israel.
No it was mandated land to be turned over to the inhabitants, though of course the provisions it was formed under rendered the legal creation of a Jewish state impossible. also besides the fact that it wasn't British land in the first place britain only had power to distribute land that was formerly government owned and that land was supposed to be distributed on an equitable basis between the two proposed states.
At no time in modern history have the Palestinians EVER had an autonomous country.
Irrelevant.
It is also important to note that it was intended to set up a Palestinian nation as well, but that has STILL not happened because the Arabs are unwilling to accept that they, acting like spoiled chidren, didn't get ALL the land.
No, the main fault with that statement is that the proposed state gave the majority of the land to the minority of the people.
It also avoids the fact that even before the Israeli declaration several major Arab areas not allocated to the proposed State had been siezed.
It also avoids the fact that it is quite clearly spelt out that nothing can be done against the wishes of the locals.
That is why there are many legal problems recognising the State of Isreal as it has actually never existed within agreed defined borders.

[Skybird]

Some years ago there were reports that the Pentagon has started to develope nuclear bunker-busting bombs, so-called mini-nukes. I wonder what their destruction capacity is, and what has become of that project.

I think this answers it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8543897.stm


The new strategy will also seek to abandon plans put in place by the previous administration to develop a new generation of nuclear weapons for penetrating underground targets known as "bunker busters."


What is that old saying - it's better to have a weapon and not needing to use it, than to need that weapon but not having it.

Anyhow this probably is a strong hint that Obama is determined to allow Iran it's nuclear weapon, like Europe also is determined to allow them that.

Next will come Syria, Lybia (with French help, most likely), Saudi Arabia, Turkey. In the longer run expect Brazil, and Japan (if both do not already have them).

We are family - applaus!

[OneToughHerring]

Earlier in this thread I wrote about the connections between Israel and Hamas, this story will further illustrate that. Originally Israel thought that Hamas could act as a counterweight against Fatah, and supported it's rise to power against Arafat's Fatah. This type of spying only further underlines how shady the whole scene is. Double agents on both sides, probably triple agents as well, assassinations, economic dealings, etc. And also torture of prisoners by the Shin Bet.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/03/02/hamas.spy/index.html

[Tribesman]

Oh well the British police have done their initial investigations, what a surprise they said it was Israel who forged the passports.
As a result the British foriegn secretary is expelling an Israeli diplomat.
Straight away MKs from Kadima and the National Union lined up to denounce the british politician as a typical european antisemite who is just dressing up his hatred of jews as a dislike of Israel
.....do you think someone should tell those Israeli politicians he is Jewish or is it best to just let them make themselves look like the hate filled bigots that they are?

[XabbaRus]

I would have expelled more than one diplomat if it was me.

I have no problem with terrorists being bumped off, I have no problem if the spec ops people doing it are using false passports but I do have a problem if the indentities used are of real people.

Surely they could have come up with some decent false identities instead of nicking other nationalities?

[Dimitrius07]

Could someone please pass the popcorn?

Hold on...

http://startupblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/popcorn.jpg

Here you go... beware its kosher :yeah:

[Jimbuna]

I'm not suprised at the outcome.

Countries obviously know severing ties with one another would have potentially far more serious implications in the future.

[Dimitrius07]

Surely they could have come up with some decent false identities instead of nicking other nationalities?

Is that bother you to much? Judging by some post in this thread folks here are more angry about the killing of a Na.... ops a extreme freedom fighter. Its also pretty clever how fast people take everything as a fact, especially when its come down to my country. Maybe my signature make people mind goes blank, who knows :shifty:.
---------------------
This whole topic reminds me of a incident with jewish mass immigration in 90`s. An example.
Some Russian used fake jewish passports to come here, the goal was to make an easy life, but that is not how it works here. Now in good case some have no particular love for my country or my people, in bad case they just bring they hate with them, same here. We have a shmuck on the boards who blamed jews for a buggy sh5 and lack of nazism in the game, this is what i call a lost case :haha::har:. O wait...... Extreme is also a jewish conspirasy, yeah baby :rock:

[Tribesman]

Is that bother you to much? Judging by some post in this thread folks here are more angry about the killing of a Na.... ops a extreme freedom fighter. Its also pretty clever how fast people take everything as a fact, especially when its come down to my country. Maybe my signature make people mind goes blank, who knows
The issue here is that as a result of the threats to Israel Israel gets special treatment.Come on dimitrious you miust have taken an el-al flight somewhere....OK maybe not, maybe you are posting from pure bloody ignorance.
So as this topic covers 4 different countries 3 of which have special security deals with Israel covering passports what is the significance of the main "friendly" country saying "bugger Israel they can't be trusted withaccess to your passport"

This whole topic reminds me of a incident with jewish mass immigration in 90`s.
The implications of that statement are hilarious would you like to explore them?
Would you like some real serious Rabbis from the agency ripping each other apart how to address it?
Or would you like the example of those "Jewish" Neo Nazis who became Israelis after becoming immigrants to Israel suddenly turning into immigrant, immigrant hating violent brain dead thugs in the name of immigrants in Israel?

Funny thing though every time I have flown with El Al they havn't offered popcorn.
Please send a memo...Izzy Borovich...please send a memo about popcorn.

Dimitrius, from the instant you chose to fly the flag you lost objectivity entirely.
Its undertanable, after all its hard to remain objective when your only arguement boils down to "they hate jews" yet you get faced with the fact that "they" happen to be jewish.

I do hope that is a big bowl of pocorn as you will have a long ride if you attempt to defend that which cannot be defended

[Dimitrius07]

The issue here is that as a result of the threats to Israel Israel gets special treatment.
The issue here is that people like you use this kind of thread as a platform for hate. And your posts says it all. Instead of taking this thread down to a same old Palestinian freedom fighting excuse (Mufti is a head chief probably) maybe its a good idea to say something relative to the topic for a change, or its to hard to accomplish? You know!!! You can do a great career in Al-Jazeera, i think you have what it takes really, you can be even better that Galloway :yeah: (dummy account coming up).

From a sane perspective, its easy. Israel should not exist, its just about the most stupid idea ever envisaged.

Well done!!! Well since you so smart and everyone who disagree with you is stupid, maybe you can tell me your smart envisaged idea about it? Deport us back and make us watch 1930 European antisemitic show? No thanks i already know a true love especially from the likes of you. After all this is a reason why we wanted your own country back in the first place.

The implications of that statement are hilarious would you like to explore them?
Why not. "Look first at your plate before you point the finger at the other"

Or would you like the example of those "Jewish" Neo Nazis who became Israelis after becoming immigrants to Israel suddenly turning into immigrant, immigrant hating violent brain dead thugs in the name of immigrants in Israel?

What???? You mean the incident with self hating jews who shout Zieg Hail, whats the problem? Your friends got deported back, don`t tell you expected that we give them a massage or something.

I do hope that is a big bowl of pocorn as you will have a long ride if you attempt to defend that which cannot be defended
We will see.^^
----------------
As long as deep
in the heart,
The soul of a
Jew yearns,
And towards
the East
An eye looks to
Zion,
Our hope is not
yet lost,
The hope of two
thousand years,
To be a free
people in our
land,
The land of
Zion and
Jerusalem.
:salute:

[OneToughHerring]

Na-zionists.

[August]

Na-zionists.

Spotted Finntrolls. See other people can play that game too! :DL

[OneToughHerring]

Nazis and Zionists had the same goal, to get Jews into Palestine/Israel. Why do you think the Zionist Israeli Jews called Holocaust-survivor Jews "soap"? No love lost there, but I have to say my sympathies lie with the Holocaust survivors.

[Oberon]

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x48/muppet1010/persistent-fail.jpg

[Dimitrius07]

Na-zionists.

A classic answer from a true profesional "racist card" player, especially when he have nothing interesting to say at the moment. Hey you can use this towards all who speak out against you. jaja :yep:. Iranian Hitler will be proud to have such a brilliant person like you self on his side. OMG!!! How i envy you :yep:

[Tribesman]

The issue here is that people like you use this kind of thread as a platform for hate.
Not in the slightest, its people like you who try and play the race card.

maybe its a good idea to say something relative to the topic for a change, or its to hard to accomplish?
The topic, you mean a country making promises that it won't break the law by faking other countries passports getting caught faking other countries passports again.
Its you who has a problem facing the issue, in fact such a problem that you resort to mindless accusations.

Well done!!! Well since you so smart and everyone who disagree with you is stupid, maybe you can tell me your smart envisaged idea about it?
Can you possibly contend that the creation of the state was a good idea?

Deport us back and make us watch 1930 European antisemitic show?
What on earth are you ranting about?

No thanks i already know a true love especially from the likes of you
You are making no sense at all.

Why not. "Look first at your plate before you point the finger at the other"

Its you who raised that topic which has been very divisive within Israel, if you yourself have a problem with Jewish immigrants then its your problem.

Your friends got deported back
Do you have a functioning mind at all?

We will see
Its there for all to see, you are unable to defend on the actual topic so instead are just ranting nonsense like those NU MKs about how everyone is hating Jews.

[Castout]

People even innocent people as foreign or local get killed from time to time and I mean get killed by some government here or there. Nobody cares about them. Many don't make it to the news. Even with more convincing proof than the case in Mabhouh whose work is said to have dealt with arm sales. Or was Mabhouh killing of personal reason perhpas that of Israeli PM that we are not aware of?

Mabhouh certainly got some friends in high places. :hmmm:

As for passport faking which govt agency that doesn't do it??!!

If the international community wanted to condemn Mahbouh assassination then they must by all account condemn the others even the many innocent blood that have been shed that didn't make it to the news who were killed for trivial pathetic reasons. Otherwise it's just one big hypocrisy....a politically motivated game...

[Skybird]

An interesting - German - interview with an Israeli investigative journalist, Ronen Bergman, who is a claimed expert for the Israeli intelligence services

Questions on the issue remain open.

http://www.heise.de/bin/tp/issue/r4/dl-artikel2.cgi?artikelnr=32283&mode=print

On the author:

Bergman is a member of the Israeli Bar (http://www.subsim.com/wiki/Israel_Bar_Association), holds a M.Phil degree in international relations, and was awarded a Ph. D by Cambridge University (http://www.subsim.com/wiki/Cambridge_University) for his dissertation about the Israeli Mossad (http://www.subsim.com/wiki/Mossad), the first ever on that subject, written under the supervision of the esteemed Professor Christopher Andrew (http://www.subsim.com/wiki/Christopher_Andrew_(historian)), chairman of the History Faculty. He is a member of the new Project for Security Studies at Cambridge and a lecturer in various forums. He also teaches investigative journalism at Tel Aviv University (http://www.subsim.com/wiki/Tel_Aviv_University).

[OneToughHerring]

A classic answer from a true profesional "racist card" player, especially when he have nothing interesting to say at the moment. Hey you can use this towards all who speak out against you. jaja :yep:. Iranian Hitler will be proud to have such a brilliant person like you self on his side. OMG!!! How i envy you :yep:

And if a Jew doesn't want to live in Israel? You will send Mossad after them?

[Oberon]

And if a Jew doesn't want to live in Israel? You will send Mossad after them?

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/9999/cote20de20pablo.jpg

They can go after me any day... :O:;)

[Bubblehead1980]

Mossad killed a guy supporting islamic terrorism, NO BIG DEAL.I do not like Israel using the identities of REAL people who have nothing to do with it, can't care they killed this guy unless you have sympathies for his cause.