Why did the RN in WW2 have open bridges for some vessels?

[Torvald Von Mansee]

This I don't get. I know visibility is better, but being open to the elements seems very silly.

[UnderseaLcpl]

This I don't get. I know visibility is better, but being open to the elements seems very silly.

I don't know for sure, but I'll posit a theory. Someone else may well have a better answer.

IIRC, the reason for ships to have an open bridge in the days of yore was, as you mentioned, visibility. The same goes for WW2 ships, and even some fairly modern ones.

Originally, the open bridge was a necessity because technology did not exist to permit the captain or the senior officer on the bridge to relay orders to other parts of the ship from more than one location. Even when the voice pipe came about, it was still not really practical to have two bridges. A voice pipe is just a tube to channel sound, and the more openings it has the less effective it is.

Another reason for the open bridge was to permit operation of the ship's compass, which would not function well within an iron or steel bridge enclosure.

My guess is that since many WW2 RN vessels were designed well before the start of WW2 it was either impractical to refit them with multiple bridges and additional control devices or they just weren't refitted at all. Britain was still reeling from the costs of WW1 then, as the compensation from Germany under the Versailles treaty amounted to very little. In short, they just didn't have the money to construct all manner of fancy ships, so they just went with the simplest solution on the smaller vessels.

To what extent this is true, I cannot say, but hopefully someone with more knowledge on the subject will have a more definitive answer.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

I don't know for sure, but I'll posit a theory. Someone else may well have a better answer.

IIRC, the reason for ships to have an open bridge in the days of yore was, as you mentioned, visibility. The same goes for WW2 ships, and even some fairly modern ones.

Originally, the open bridge was a necessity because technology did not exist to permit the captain or the senior officer on the bridge to relay orders to other parts of the ship from more than one location. Even when the voice pipe came about, it was still not really practical to have two bridges. A voice pipe is just a tube to channel sound, and the more openings it has the less effective it is.

Another reason for the open bridge was to permit operation of the ship's compass, which would not function well within an iron or steel bridge enclosure.

My guess is that since many WW2 RN vessels were designed well before the start of WW2 it was either impractical to refit them with multiple bridges and additional control devices or they just weren't refitted at all. Britain was still reeling from the costs of WW1 then, as the compensation from Germany under the Versailles treaty amounted to very little. In short, they just didn't have the money to construct all manner of fancy ships, so they just went with the simplest solution on the smaller vessels.

To what extent this is true, I cannot say, but hopefully someone with more knowledge on the subject will have a more definitive answer.

Strangely enough, I once remember seeing a photo of a batch of WW1 destroyers delivered to Britain under Lend Lease, and the caption mentioned how the DDs would be altered by having their bridges made open air. That would seem to indicate it's a doctrine motive rather than economic, but I'm not that knowledgeable on the subject. I'll bet there's someone around here who knows off the top of his head!!

[sharkbit]

I don't know for sure, but I'll posit a theory. Someone else may well have a better answer.

IIRC, the reason for ships to have an open bridge in the days of yore was, as you mentioned, visibility. The same goes for WW2 ships, and even some fairly modern ones.

Originally, the open bridge was a necessity because technology did not exist to permit the captain or the senior officer on the bridge to relay orders to other parts of the ship from more than one location. Even when the voice pipe came about, it was still not really practical to have two bridges. A voice pipe is just a tube to channel sound, and the more openings it has the less effective it is.

Another reason for the open bridge was to permit operation of the ship's compass, which would not function well within an iron or steel bridge enclosure.

My guess is that since many WW2 RN vessels were designed well before the start of WW2 it was either impractical to refit them with multiple bridges and additional control devices or they just weren't refitted at all. Britain was still reeling from the costs of WW1 then, as the compensation from Germany under the Versailles treaty amounted to very little. In short, they just didn't have the money to construct all manner of fancy ships, so they just went with the simplest solution on the smaller vessels.

To what extent this is true, I cannot say, but hopefully someone with more knowledge on the subject will have a more definitive answer.

Good theory. :up:

This may sound stupid, but one possible factor-weight savings.
Enclosed bridge means more steel plating for protection=more weight.
Also the added weight higher up may have made for some ungodly rolling in heavy seas with possibility of capsizing.
Just guessing. My knowledge of maritime engineering is lacking.
:)

[Letum]

Almost all ships with an open bridge also have an enclosed bridge too.

[Randomizer]

A second opinion...

When the RN started converting from sail to steam the desirable trait in a naval officer was character rather than professional skill. That said, one had to stand bravely on the quarterdeck in all weather conditions and as shot and shell flew in battle. To do otherwise would be "ungentlemanly" and unworthy of a Naval Officer.

The problem was that ironclad battleships could no longer be commanded from the quarterdeck and so command had to move forward to an elevated superstructure called a "flying bridge" and later just "bridge". However, the requirement to remain exposed to the elements and enemy fire remained in spite of all reasons to the contrary.

The more pragmatic U.S. and German navies went to enclose bridges before the Dreadnaught era but the RN stuck to their open bridges until HMS Nelson from the 1922 programme and the main reason for it was to provide protection from the muzzle blasts of the ships own guns. Even then, the enclosed bridges were unpopular with some of the old guard who had spent the Great War on open bridges. So essentially there was no reason to retain open bridges other than an institutional resistance to change and a "It was good enough for me dammit" mindset.

Note that the designers provided armoured conning towers and enclosed wheel houses from the 1890's but these were generally avoided by the executive officers while on watch. WW2 again demonstrated the logical fallacy behind the idea of fighting the ship in the open and later wartime construction saw enclosed bridges incorporated into new construction even as the ship's command elements started to move from the bridge to an "Operations Room" (CIC in the USN). Also the social nature of the Navy had changed so getting under cover carried none of the stigma that effected the Navy from when the leadership was still steeped in the traditions of wood and sail.

It's a good question and one difficult to find solid information about however the following books have mention of this very subject in passing:

British Battleships 1860 - 1950 by Oscar Parkes

The Rules of the Game, Jutland and British Naval Command by Andrew Gordon

The Anatomy of British Sea Power 1860 - 1905 by Arthur Marder

[Tribesman]

Almost all ships with an open bridge also have an enclosed bridge too.

Perfect.
What is a bridge?
This I don't get.
What is a RN bridge and what is a USN bridge?
Is a platform a bridge or is it a station?
Is a station a platform or a bridge?
What is a platform and what is a bridge?
What is a bridge and what is a flying bridge?
When is a station a platform and when are they are bridge?

Open "bridges" occured in many navies , the reasons(as well as the nomenclature) are widespread and diverse.
So answer#1 may be weight
Answer#2 visibility(in the increased inter war period regarding air threats)
Answer#3 stability
#4cost
#5 ops
#6..as to the question...RN resources

I suppose the main questions are what do you call a bridge and what do you call open?

[ReFaN]

Fresh air is always good

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Fresh air is always good

Heh. You'd say that during an arctic gale escorting a convoy to Murmansk?

[Jimbuna]

IMHO UnderseaLcpl was pretty close if this article is accurate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_(nautical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_(nautical))

Note the caption from the photo of the Royal Navy destroyer compass platform:

The Royal Navy favoured the open bridge for the unique tactical view it gave the Captain, long after other navies had moved indoors.

Edit: For some reason my rig won't allow me to get the link above right. After clicking on it click on the option 'Did you mean Bridge (nautical)'

[Tribesman]

IMHO UnderseaLcpl was pretty close if this article is accurate:

But undermined by USN ships moving to open bridges

[August]

I think Randomizer has the answer:

the enclosed bridges were unpopular with some of the old guard who had spent the Great War on open bridges. So essentially there was no reason to retain open bridges other than an institutional resistance to change and a "It was good enough for me dammit" mindset.

[Sailor Steve]

Partly tradition, partly necessity.

The first steel battleships had to have open bridges for the simple reason that flying glass was a very real danger, and portholes too small for conducting battle strategies, so the captain (and admiral) had to be where they could see. The bridge was built above the armored conning tower, which housed and protected the helmsman and other crew essential to driving the ship. Between the wars saw the development of armored glass, and by World War Two all battleships had enclosed bridges with big windows. The conning tower behind them was the most heavily armored part of the ship, and the bridge continued to be built from thin plates of mild steel, but that is where the leading officers still had to be because they still couldn't see from the conning tower.

The original Torpedo Boat Destroyers had a small unarmored conning tower, only big enough for the helmsman. The captain stood on the 12pdr gun platform, which was mounted directly on top of the conning tower. The Germans used an actual bridge on their TBDs, which practice was followed by the British 'River' class, but for the reasons given above these continued to be open. World War Two destroyers started to have enclosed bridges, but these were too small for armored glass windows so the officers stood outside unless the weather was bad. True enlosed bridges didn't come to the smaller ships until the 1960s.

[edit] :damn:

First I type up a big long post, hit 'Submit' and find that I've been logged out.:damn:

So I retype it, with changes, make sure I copy it first and everything is fine.

Then I notice the linked Wiki article. :damn:

[Jimbuna]

Partly tradition, partly necessity.

[edit] :damn:

First I type up a big long post, hit 'Submit' and find that I've been logged out.:damn:

So I retype it, with changes, make sure I copy it first and everything is fine.

Then I notice the linked Wiki article. :damn:


http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/4030/winkbigid2zj6.gif



















:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:

[boatguy]

I'm no expert but I've always appreciated the aesthetics of Royal Navy vessels.
I've read that when America built destroyer escorts for England, England requested that we not outfit them with ice cream makers, standard on the American ships. The DE's also came with open bridges.

Not sure if it has to do with visibility or "stiff upper lip".

[Skybird]

Zo-zo-zo-zo-zombie Award...!!!

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

IMHO UnderseaLcpl was pretty close if this article is accurate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_(nautical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_%28nautical))

<snip>Edit: For some reason my rig won't allow me to get the link above right. After clicking on it click on the option 'Did you mean Bridge (nautical)'Jim, reason for your link's inoperability is that ")" is not included in it.

EDIT: @Skybird: :) Good point Sky! So I just corrected Jim for two year old small error in linking. Nice! :D

[frau kaleun]

And you've won a prize!

http://theelderscrollsskyrim.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Staff-of-Zombies.jpg

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

And you've won a prize!

http://theelderscrollsskyrim.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Staff-of-Zombies.jpgIs that from Skyrim, Frau? :hmmm:

[frau kaleun]

Is that from Skyrim, Frau? :hmmm:

Of course, it's where I get all my good stuff these days.



Edit: altho to be honest that staff isn't all that "good" any more since nothing I want to reanimate is weak enough to be affected by it. Still, gotta have one in the collection to complete the set. :O:

[Oberon]

I used to be a zombie...but then I...braaaaains...

[frau kaleun]

Have you tried necro-threading work? It might suit you.

[Sailor Steve]

WELCOME ABOARD! :sunny:

But one has to wonder why you're responding directly to a post made two years ago.

[frau kaleun]

WELCOME ABOARD! :sunny:

But one has to wonder why you're responding directly to a post made two years ago.


Oooh oooh let me guess!


I bet it's because someone stole his sweetroll. :rotfl2:

[AVGWarhawk]

I think the open bridge has something to do with tea.

[Randomizer]

Isn't open bridge like contract bridge except nobody dies?

[frau kaleun]

I think the open bridge has something to do with tea.

Well, it is the Royal Navy, so... either that or sodomy. :hmmm: :O:

[Blood_splat]

http://www.minerwars.com/ForumUploads/20100916023519_217_Necromancy.jpg

[Schroeder]

O.K. guys I think he understood it, no more need for more "OMG ze Zombies are here" posts. He found a topic that he found interesting (perhaps through a search engine like Google) and obviously responded to the thread without looking at it's age. So what?

Welcome aboard boatguy.:salute:

[August]

O.K. guys I think he understood it, no more need for more "OMG ze Zombies are here" posts. He found a topic that he found interesting (perhaps through a search engine like Google) and obviously responded to the thread without looking at it's age. So what?

Welcome aboard boatguy.:salute:

+ 1

[Herr-Berbunch]

I wasn't here two years ago, so it's been nice to read through this, didn't even realise it was a necro'd thread to start with. And yes, Google sometimes brings me back here which reminds me, as if I needed it, how nice and informative this place is. :D

[AVGWarhawk]

The bridges were open for sightseeing. :DL

[Jimbuna]

The bridges were open for sightseeing. :DL

A bit like the Tyne Bridge...you'll see some right sights there :haha:

[Platapus]

Would weight and stability have a factor? Enclosed bridges, especially enclosed by steel, are added weight located up pretty high up. That has to create some moment. Would something like that have any practical effect on stability in poor weather?

[Jimbuna]

I wouldn't have thought so...many other countries had warships with covered bridges.

[Stealhead]

I do not think that weight would have been the reason because unless it was really over the top like the IJN Japanese pagodas(and they seemed to stay afloat err well non just simply capsized not without a lot of American steel helping it anyway) I would think that a ballast would counter the effect of an enclosed bridge over an open.Besides on a destroyer an enclosed bridge probably only added 5 or 6 tons to the weight.


An open bridge would allow the bridge crew to yell out orders with a megaphone or pure voice if needed without leaving the bridge that could be useful.

[Sailor Steve]

Read the post I made two years ago. I think I explained it pretty well back then.

[JU_88]

Inresting thread, I didnt understand our love for open bridges either - especially when you consider how much rainfall we get in the UK. :woot: