Sales figures - Where?

[Nisgeis]

There have been a few posts of late talking about the 'success' or 'failure' of SH3 and SH4 based on the sales figures. Some have said that SH3 sold well because... and others have said that SH4 didn't sell well because... Others have compared sales figures from other titles.

I've never seen any sales figures released from Ubisoft. Could someone who has seen them tell me where the sales figures are listed please? I'd really be interested to see how well each title sells compared to others in its genre category.

Thanks!

[Ragtag]

As far as i know Ubisoft do not give out their salefigures to the public. Most statistics are usually based on sales from shops and are quite inacurate due to alot of shops not giving out salesfigures to.

[Onkel Neal]

I get my info from several distinct sources, some from some inside Ubisoft (not the devs), some independent of Ubi (marketing research groups), but I cannot say who. These are sources I have built over nearly ten years and I don't want to lose them. And I cannot say I know they are 100% accurate. But the different sources do have similar numbers.

SH2: ~95K
SH3: ~90K
SH4: ~50K

Those are US numbers, worldwide is something like 2X those figures.

[Sonarman]

Ubisoft did state publically a while back in a press release (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=942730) that the series as a whole had sold over 1.5 million units. Traditionally a simulation game was considered successful in the industry with sales of over 300,000 units. The figures Neal quotes may be full price retail ie. before releasing on budget figures? Reading between the lines on various articles it appears that the series is selling more copies in Europe than the US. Indeed SHIII reached number 3 in the UK PC charts on release and stayed in the charts for some time after, unheard of for a subsim.

[Nisgeis]

Thanks Neal. I can't help wonder how much the reviews of SH4 saying 'This game clearly isn't finished' hurt the sales figures, compared to the content itself. Unlike subsim, reviews don't usually get updated with patches.

I don't think they take budget sales into account, as they sell the right to the title on to the budget company, so they get a lump sum instead. That said, the 1.5 million figures doesn't add up.

[THE_MASK]

50,000 sales for SH4 . I am afraid games that are not quite up to standard and bad press makes for slow sales . I would say the torpedo has already been fired at SH5 and it looks to be a circle runner . The only thing that will save it now is for the tools to mod the damaged hull of SH5 and get it into shape .

[onelifecrisis]

Ubisoft did state publically a while back in a press release (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=942730) that the series as a whole had sold over 1.5 million units. Traditionally a simulation game was considered successful in the industry with sales of over 300,000 units. The figures Neal quotes may be full price retail ie. before releasing on budget figures? Reading between the lines on various articles it appears that the series is selling more copies in Europe than the US. Indeed SHIII reached number 3 in the UK PC charts on release and stayed in the charts for some time after, unheard of for a subsim.

Fascinating stuff. I wonder what that says about the UK? Maybe just that the U-boats had a lasting effect on us?

I've also seen that number (1.5 million) somewhere, but there's a big gap between that and Neal's figures. Too big, I think, to be explained by budget sales. :hmmm:

[THE_MASK]

Now that SH5 is online there is no excuse for Ubi to not continue ongoing support , paid or otherwise . You can download the silent hunter 5 soundtrack on itunes .

[Hitman]

SH2: ~95K
SH3: ~90K
SH4: ~50K Interesting how the buggy and unfinished SH2 sold more than SH3 ... doubtlessly because of the multiplayer sub vs. destroyer. Also may be the bad reputation of SH2 damaged SH3 later? Had more widespreaded piracy a direct impact in SH3/4 sales?

Even if unfinished, I bet that the reason that SH4 sold less was also because of it being about US subs. The myth of the grey wolves in popular culture is still much spreaded than the US boats campaign, and that shows here.

Also, Neal, do those figures for SH4 include Uboat missions??

One final consideration: If the amount of recent Sh games sold goes up to

nearly 240.000, then 1.260.000 sales in the franchise go to the good original SH 1 :rock:

[martes86]

Interesting how the buggy and unfinished SH2 sold more than SH3 ... doubtlessly because of the multiplayer sub vs. destroyer.

Yeah... it still had some predicament in the community, it took SH3 some time to overcome the gameplay of SH2/DC, specially in MP (SP was actually much better equipped).

[bishop]

I've also seen that number (1.5 million) somewhere, but there's a big gap between that and Neal's figures. Too big, I think, to be explained by budget sales. :hmmm:

The press release said the series 'as a whole' which I would suspect would (should) include SH1. Neal's figures don't include SH1, possibly because it was SSI and not Ubisoft's title originally. But I think if you include those sales, the 1.5 mil # might be accurate. I think the original SH as a whole (including the expansion packs and Commanders Edition) may actually have been the biggest seller of the entire series...

[Sonarman]

Here is an interesting quote I found a whille back on the original SSI Silent Hunter by Joel Billings in the book "Interactivity in action"...

The product with the most potential for SSI is "Silent Hunter" , it's a world war ii submarine simulation, and submarine simulations sell really well. - Aces of the Deep sold a ton. Silent Hunter is an outstanding product in every way and we are thinking it may well become our all-time biggest seller.

That's quite a compliment and an eye-opener considering SSI's output at the time.

[Heretic]

Here is an interesting quote I found a whille back on the original SSI Silent Hunter by Joel Billings in the book "Interactivity in action"...

The product with the most potential for SSI is "Silent Hunter" , it's a world war ii submarine simulation, and submarine simulations sell really well. - Aces of the Deep sold a ton. Silent Hunter is an outstanding product in every way and we are thinking it may well become our all-time biggest seller.

That's quite a compliment and an eye-opener considering SSI's output at the time.

Back then , that was the case. PC games were made by enthusiasts for enthusiasts. Back in the day, wargames were a good size chunk of the market. I bought almost every Gary Grigsby game SSI produced. It was a niche market.

Ironicly, technology played a big role in killing that. Better hardware allowed better graphics and sound, etc. Development costs shot up, so they had to cater to a wider audience to stay in business. It became a mass medium with all the pros and cons that goes with it.

Joel and Gary are still around. Still making great games. Still a niche market.

[Sonarman]

I wonder if those figures are US sales only, I remember EAST posting a while back that he had heard on the industry grapevine that the budget for SHIII was around 3 million dollars.

Based on the above 90K copies for SH3 x a full retail price of of $40 gives 3.6 million but only about a third of that or less would be Ubisoft's when you factor in distribution & retail. I doubt there would be a SH4 and SH5 based on those figures. And SH3 was considered a success by Ubi.

[Bilge_Rat]

For SH1, I had read a long time ago, I believe in a Ubisoft press release announcing SH2, that SH1 had sold 300,000 units. Of course, that was a different time when the Sim market was stronger and there was no competition from consoles.



SH2: ~95K
SH3: ~90K
SH4: ~50K

On SH3, mr. Stevens may have forgotten his little sit-down with the SH4 Dev Team:


Subsim: Back in June 2005 CNN quoted the NPD Group’s April sales numbers at 26,600 units. Is that accurate? What does Ubisoft claim for sales numbers for SH3 to date?
SH4 Dev Team: The best thing about a simulation title is that the amount of sales tends to remain constant each month. SHIII sells well even one year after its release. We estimate Silent Hunter 3 sold over 300,000 copies worldwide.


http://www.subsim.com/ssr/sh4/sh4_interview1.php

Regarding SH4, I would also think the figures were influenced more by the theater, since in terms of game mechanics and features, SH3 and SH4 were the same. From what I have read previously, the two strongest markets for subsims are U.S.A. and Germany. I presume there is less interest in Germany for the Pacific theater.

The 1,500,000 total figure seems suspect, since after we remove the 600,000 for SH1 and SH3, that leaves 900,000 for SH2 and SH4. :o

However, even if the 1.5 milion sales figure for sh1 to 4 since 1996 is true, it is still only a blip on Ubisoft's balance sheet. Assassin's Creed 2 alone has sold 6,000,000 copies since november and Ubisoft is predicting total sales of Euros 860,000,000 (i.e. about U.S. $1.2 billion) this year.


http://www.ubisoftgroup.com/index.php?p=59&art_id=60&vars=Y29tX2lkPTcyNyZzZW5kZXJfdXJsPWluZGV4LnBocCUzR nAlM0Q1OSUyNmFydF9pZCUzRDYwJTI2dmFycyUzRFkyOXRYMmx rUFRjek1DWnpaVzVrWlhKZmRYSnNQV2x1WkdWNExuQm9jQ1V6U m5BbE0wUTFPU1V5Tm1GeWRGOXBaQ1V6UkRZd0pUSTJkbUZ5Y3l VelJGa3lPWFJZTW14clVGUmplVTU1V25wYVZ6VnJXbGhKT1Vwd FduQmlTRkpzWTJ3NU1HVllRbXhRVTFwdFlWZDRNRnBZU21aaVZ 6bDFaRWRuT1VwdFduQmlTRkpzWTJ3NU5WcFhSbmxRVVNVeU5UT kVKVEkxTTBRJTI1M0Q%3D

[oscar19681]

A thread about sales figures? Man i feel like i,m watching wall street reports here!

[Sonarman]

At least it gets our minds off the dreaded DRM topic for a while!

[Hitman]

However, even if the 1.5 milion sales figure for sh1 to 4 since 1996 is true, it is still only a blip on Ubisoft's balance sheet. Assassin's Creed 2 alone has sold 6,000,000 copies since november and Ubisoft is predicting total sales of Euros 860,000,000 (i.e. about U.S. $1.2 billion) this year.

Yeah, I see how rightfully they are bothered about some people pirating their new SH5 ... would ruin them to care about the loyal customers of their niche market, would it? :rotfl2:

[tater]

According to their annual reports, total sales have ~45% US, 49% Europe, and 6% the rest of the world.

Even doubled, those numbers are quite low. Low enough, in fact, that instead of us being beholden to them ("oh, please, oh please, sell use broken products that WE will finish for you—oh, and add ), invasive DRM schemes!"—they should be beholden to us.

[onelifecrisis]

According to their annual reports, total sales have ~45% US, 49% Europe, and 6% the rest of the world.

Even doubled, those numbers are quite low. Low enough, in fact, that instead of us being beholden to them ("oh, please, oh please, sell use broken products that WE will finish for you—oh, and add ), invasive DRM schemes!"—they should be beholden to us.

Er... those numbers are percentages. They aren't high or low. They add up to 100. :doh:

[FIREWALL]

Concerning SH3. I can account for 3 discs. :D

[Bilge_Rat]

I took a quick gander at the Ubi financial statements for 2008-09:

Highlights:

- sales: E 1,057 million
- funds re-invested
in game development: E 209 million
- sales from products developped in-house: 81% (60 out of 112)
- PC game sales: 9% of total sales (i.e. 81% from consoles)
-number of employees : 5,765 (83% or 4,790 in production)
-average age of employees: 31.2 years.

http://www.ubisoftgroup.com/index.php?p=195&art_id=

- Ubisoft's profits have gone down from E 110 million in 08 to E 68 million in 09 and they are forecasting a loss of (E 50 million) for 2010.

They have more important things to worry about than a boycott of SH5 by a few hundred consumers.

[Navarre]

Ubisoft sells their games to wholesalers, the wholesalers sell these games to retailers and retailers to the customers (players).

For every Ubissoft game you see in the shops, Ubisoft got the money already from the wholesalers. They don't get our money we pay if we don't order directly at the Ubisoft shop.

So in first place, Ubisoft has only the number of sales to the wholesaler.
They don't know how well a game eventually sold, they only recognized that it is bad in sales if there is low or no re-orders from the wholesaler.

To get the true sales numbers in realtime(24h/7d) , they must pay for an expensive account at MediaControl (http://www.media-control.de/startseite.html). MediaControl collects the real sales numbers of games from the retailer and create analysis and charts of these data.

But now with these new online DRM, Ubisoft don't need anymore this expensive MediaControl account. They can now see how much bought their games, because a customer who bought a Ubisoft game is online and connected with their own servers.:O:

[Onkel Neal]

For SH1, I had read a long time ago, I believe in a Ubisoft press release announcing SH2, that SH1 had sold 300,000 units. Of course, that was a different time when the Sim market was stronger and there was no competition from consoles.

On SH3, mr. Stevens may have forgotten his little sit-down with the SH4 Dev Team:

Subsim: Back in June 2005 CNN quoted the NPD Group’s April sales numbers at 26,600 units. Is that accurate? What does Ubisoft claim for sales numbers for SH3 to date?
SH4 Dev Team: The best thing about a simulation title is that the amount of sales tends to remain constant each month. SHIII sells well even one year after its release. We estimate Silent Hunter 3 sold over 300,000 copies worldwide.



See the part where I said sources "inside Ubisoft (not the devs)"?

[Bilge_Rat]

See the part where I said sources "inside Ubisoft (not the devs)"?


oh, so it's even more of a niche product than I thought with around 90,000 sales for SH3. :o

[Onkel Neal]

Like I said, I cannot say with 100% accuracy, but I have seen them verified by different sources. Check on the web for niche game sales, for stuff like strategy games, etc. They don't sell many copies. That's why there are no more Nuke Subsims. EA said hell no, and when Sonalysts tried to go it on their own with Dangerous Waters, it did not sell well.

But, hey, no worries, I'm sure some indie developer is working on a nuke subsim as we speak. Any day now. Soon! :haha:

[Heretic]

That's why it's so crazy to expect some other developer to make a decent sub sim. They'd have the same budget and time restraints. They'd still have to market it to the casual gamer. But they start from scratch! Do they have the budget to have both hardcore and mass appeal elements? No. And which of those will get cut? The hardcore stuff, since it's not vital to the mass market you have to reach. The Silent Hunter franchise is built on a first rate sim. They can put all the mass market goodies they want to on top of it as long as the guts are still there and still accessable.

[tater]

Er... those numbers are percentages. They aren't high or low. They add up to 100. :doh:

Neal's numbers were real numbers. SOmone suggested that might just ne US sales.

So take the 90k sales figure, assume it is just the US, and call it 200k, it's still not huge global sales.

[Onkel Neal]

Correct, they are US numbers, sorry. I have amended the post.:yep:

[tater]

How many unique visitors does SS get? Seems to me SS catches the eye of a LARGE % of total SH sales. MOst forums only reach a tiny fraction of gamers per title...

SS is an amazing resource for people wanting to make sub games.

[rascal101]

Jesus no wonder the games scene is dying in the arse - your average sales rep earns 90k in a year

How you get a developer team working for two or three years on a title and only make 90k for your efforts thats serious loss, either that or the developers are paid peanuts

How the hell did SH2 make more than three!

R

I get my info from several distinct sources, some from some inside Ubisoft (not the devs), some independent of Ubi (marketing research groups), but I cannot say who. These are sources I have built over nearly ten years and I don't want to lose them. And I cannot say I know they are 100% accurate. But the different sources do have similar numbers.

SH2: ~95K
SH3: ~90K
SH4: ~50K

Those are US numbers, worldwide is something like 2X those figures.

[Nisgeis]

Thinking back, SH4 was in the Top 10 (or perhaps 20) best selling PC games in the local games shops where I worked and when the expansion pack came out, that was up there too, always a few places behind the main game, so it can't have sold that badly in the UK.

[Sailor Steve]

How you get a developer team working for two or three years on a title and only make 90k for your efforts thats serious loss, either that or the developers are paid peanuts
I think that's copies sold, not amount paid (or brought in).

90k copies x $50 US would be $4.5 million. Still a pittance compared to a mainstream game, but more than ninety thousand.

[martes86]

Correct, they are US numbers, sorry.

Oh... then global sales are probably much higher... wow, lots of subsimmers in the US. :DL

[Heretic]

I think that's copies sold, not amount paid (or brought in).

90k copies x $50 US would be $4.5 million. Still a pittance compared to a mainstream game, but more than ninety thousand.


You need a breakout of how many sold at full price versus various levels of discount to calculate the total revenue generated. I doubt such figures are available. I'd be surprised if the 95k figure refers to full price sales.

[Sailor Steve]

You need a breakout of how many sold at full price versus various levels of discount to calculate the total revenue generated. I doubt such figures are available. I'd be surprised if the 95k figure refers to full price sales.
Agreed, but not my point. My point was that the numbers quoted were not money figures, as the post I cited seemed to believe.

[Jimbuna]

Thinking back, SH4 was in the Top 10 (or perhaps 20) best selling PC games in the local games shops where I worked and when the expansion pack came out, that was up there too, always a few places behind the main game, so it can't have sold that badly in the UK.

Yeah but for what time period did it stay in the charts? I saw scant evidence of it in the northern region.

[lynx]

If I was a manager of Ubi, I´d very nervous and worried after reading here, SH5 DRM, Global sales!!
:-?"old this Spanish says: : he is of wise people to rectify(es de sabios rectificar)"

[Nisgeis]

Yeah but for what time period did it stay in the charts? I saw scant evidence of it in the northern region.

Quite a while, I remember being surprised that it had the staying power, which is why I noticed it each time I went in. It was in the charts from the vanilla version through to the Add-on being released. The add-on bumped it up a bit.

[Jimbuna]

Quite a while, I remember being surprised that it had the staying power, which is why I noticed it each time I went in. It was in the charts from the vanilla version through to the Add-on being released. The add-on bumped it up a bit.

Interesting :up:....its just a pity the sales figures aren't known.

[tater]

Oh... then global sales are probably much higher... wow, lots of subsimmers in the US. :DL

According to their annual report, US was 45% of sales, and Europe was 49% of sales (total for Ubi).

Assuming SH matches that:
So 90k units is 45% of sales. That's 200,000 units total, and that means Europe bought 98k units. Not a huge difference.

[martes86]

According to their annual report, US was 45% of sales, and Europe was 49% of sales (total for Ubi).

Assuming SH matches that:
So 90k units is 45% of sales. That's 200,000 units total, and that means Europe bought 98k units. Not a huge difference.

Not really the difference itself, but from where it comes. I mean... the US is a whole country, with a fairly unified culture, while Europe is a continent full of different countries and cultures. Sure, Europe's all big and modern now, and the EU keeps growing (as long as the economy doesn't crash us), but one can't skip the fact that there are lots 'n lots of differences, starting with the ways people see/rate gaming in each country... even within the countries themselves. And seeing like one single country has as many sales as a whole continent, well, it's impressive. I don't know if you get my point, it's too long to explain. :DL

Cheers :rock:

[Platapus]

Concerning SH3. I can account for 3 discs. :D

There you go, spoiling the curve again. :D

Although I have to admit to two copies myself. :shifty:

[Ducimus]

Slighty off topic but related.

You know what i wonder?

What were the sales figures for UBM, and of that number, how many of those sales were made due to mods supporting only SH4 version 1.5. I know i've seen more then a couple of posts by people buying UBM who had no interest in uboats, but got the expansion anyway only so the could run the latest supermod. If the number is high enough, i think the SH4 modders deserve a free game as a pat on the back for supporting the series and generating sales. :O: (yeah i know, self serving wishful thinking. :har: )

[Nisgeis]

Well, I know some didn't like 1.5 being referred to as a patch, but it was. That's the version that went from being stuck at a maximum resolution of 1024x768 scaled up to fit your monitor, to actually supporting native higher resolutions. That's one of the things that SH4 got slated for in the reviews.

[Platapus]

If I was a manager of Ubi, I´d very nervous and worried after reading here, SH5 DRM, Global sales!!
:-?"old this Spanish says: : he is of wise people to rectify(es de sabios rectificar)"

That's assuming a Ubi manager would even read this forum.

And even if he or she did, I don't think it would enable any changes

I can just imagine the conversation between the program manager and the Senior Management of Ubi.

Manager: I think we need to re-look at your decision for DRM, it might affect sales.

Senior Uber Vice President: And why do you think it would affect sales?

Manager: Uh I read some anonymous comments on an internet website.

SUVP: :stare:

CEO of Ubi: I hope you enjoy your promotion as the head program manager for Ubi operations on Pitcarn Island. Pack your bags.

Manager: But it is a pretty important internet website!

SUVP: :stare:

CEO: :stare:

[malkuth74]

Nothing personal but those numbers seem awfully low to me. I can't believe with sales like that they would even bother founding this game anymore.

Those numbers have to be off. When you sell a game for 40 dollar you guys are thinking wrong. Your think UBI gets all that money. Your wrong. You have the cost of making the boxes, DVDS, manuals, advetisments! Then you have the shops like Gamestop or wallmart. They don't sell a game for 40 dollars and give that money to UBI. They take a share of that money too.

So if you figure in 80K sold, and actual take in money of maybe 20 ( I read an acticle few years ago the estimate was more like 12-14 dollars for a 40 dollar game after all expenses of making the game, not including Develpment) Dollars if your lucky. Those sale numbers look like loses to me, and no way they would continue the franchise after SHIII with numbers like those.

Sorry.

[Webster]

Nothing personal but those numbers seem awfully low to me. I can't believe with sales like that they would even bother founding this game anymore.



well how do we actually know how much they put into this game?


isnt it possible they already had all the stuff used for the game and just repackaged it wearing new clothes so to speak? sh5 may not have cost very much to make in terms of time or money, im just sayin

[Heretic]

well how do we actually know how much they put into this game?


isnt it possible they already had all the stuff used for the game and just repackaged it wearing new clothes so to speak? sh5 may not have cost very much to make in terms of time or money, im just sayin

Certainly less than starting from scratch. The engine has years of development in it.

[malkuth74]

Yes but you guys are thinking that im just talking about SHV. The problem is that neal posted numbers going back to SHII. And they never sold over 100K titles in the US.

Can't be right. They might use the same engine. But they still have development cost to update it, pay the Developers a years salery etc. Then production cost, advertisments, forums, manuals. ETC.

It cost more then you guys think.

They have to be making money though, becuase they keep making the games. Thats why I don't think the numbers are any good.

[Hitman]

You know what i wonder?

What were the sales figures for UBM, and of that number, how many of those sales were made due to mods supporting only SH4 version 1.5. I know i've seen more then a couple of posts by people buying UBM who had no interest in uboats, but got the expansion anyway only so the could run the latest supermod. If the number is high enough, i think the SH4 modders deserve a free game as a pat on the back for supporting the series and generating sales. :O: (yeah i know, self serving wishful thinking. :har: )

If the free game is a DRM included SH5, then they can keep it for themselves, I resign :nope:

[Heretic]

Yes but you guys are thinking that im just talking about SHV. The problem is that neal posted numbers going back to SHII. And they never sold over 100K titles in the US.

Can't be right. They might use the same engine. But they still have development cost to update it, pay the Developers a years salery etc. Then production cost, advertisments, forums, manuals. ETC.

It cost more then you guys think.

They have to be making money though, becuase they keep making the games. Thats why I don't think the numbers are any good.


Oh, I absolutely agree. I'm sure the budget for this game was similar to the average game. But if they had to start from scratch, the cost would have been doubled, at least. They couldn't even sell enough copies to break even, let alone make a profit. The only reason it is being made at all is it has a mature engine to build on.