Are you you rooting for failure for SH5?

[Heretic]

Every new bit of information about this game is pounced on by people gleefully picking every nit and smugly predicting SH5 a total failure because it doesn't address their pet issue to their satisfaction. I swear, some people are going to actually be disappointed if the game doesn't suck! Not to mention the DRM freakout. No one has seen anything other than descriptions of unfinished previews and they're ready to write it off. Talk about cutting of your nose to spite your face!

Do you not understand what's at stake? This is likely the best we're ever going to get. There is never going to be a sub sim made for us. It's too expensive and the market is too small. The best we can hope for is a game aimed at the mass market that, underneath, has the realism our community can bring out with mods. Everything I see about this game screams 'potential'. Yeah, it's got a simplified interface, but it has to to bring new people into our hobby. Without new people, our hobby dies.

I'm convinced 'our game' is in there, underneath that 'ease of use' layer, if for no other reason than that it's built on SHIII/IV. They didn't throw away their code and start over.

I'm not saying everyone should be a mindless cheerleader and buy the game no matter what, but for God's sake, if SH5 fails, the franchise is quite likely finished. And with that, this hobby, that means so much to us, is DEAD.

Alright, I figured I'd take my turn at a rant. So now go ahead and call me a fanboy or a sellout or tell me 'moo!' a few more times if it makes you feel better.

[ETR3(SS)]

This is business as usual I'm afraid. It's been like this for the past 3 installments of the game.

[Lanzfeld]

Well I certainly hope the DRM fails. I wont buy it until it does. :down:

As far as the game goes. Fail or not what I really want is a change in the development direction and give me a REALISTIC sim.:up:

[Uber Gruber]

I'm pretty confident SH5 can be modded into an excellent sub sim. BUT that can only be of benefit to me if I buy SH5....which I can't whilst it has DRM/OSP/KACK.

I'm voting you see....with the only voice I have, my wallet. Why ? Because I don't like an unnecessary intrusion into my life and DRM is just that.

:yawn:

[TarJak]

I am acutally wanting the game to be a great success. Yes there are somethings that I don't like:

1943 campaign limitation
Only type VII boats
Expected retitiveness of AI character interactions.

However there is one big bugger of an elephant in the room preventing me from wanting to buy the thing and that is the OSP tether. Without OSP SHV is a buy. With OSP it is not.

My reasoning is simple, I don't want to pay AU$90 odd for a game that I cannot play whenever I want regardless of where I am and whether or not I have an internet connection and regardless of whether Ubisoft's server farm exists or not. I can do that now with SH3 and for now at least I will continue to use that game over anything that comes with OSP.

Will I buy it when it gets to bargain bin status in 12 months time? Well that will depend on what I see in the forums and It's simple economics for me. AU$90 is too much to pay for something I don't get freedom of use out of. AU$10 I can live with the tether, but frankly if the games replayability is not there, then it will end up on the shelf like SH4.

And yes Ubi this means I'm not buying any of the other titles that comes with OSP.

Your choice on the other hand is exactly that...

[Rockin Robbins]

Hope it's a success. I'll wait and see if it is before my cash leaves my pocket. I buy winners only.

Until the facts are in I see no reason to cheer or jeer.

[FIREWALL]

I see you as the one to start a crap thread. :stare:

[Platapus]

Every new bit of information about this game is pounced on by people gleefully picking every nit and smugly predicting SH5 a total failure because it doesn't address their pet issue to their satisfaction. I swear, some people are going to actually be disappointed if the game doesn't suck! Not to mention the DRM freakout. No one has seen anything other than descriptions of unfinished previews and they're ready to write it off. Talk about cutting of your nose to spite your face!

I don't know of anyone who is writing this game off. There is a small contingent of people who are choosing to use their freedom of choice not to purchase this game while it has this specific type of DRM. These people are not hoping for SH5 to fail, they are hoping for Ubi to decide to get rid of this form of DRM.

Others on this forum have expressed desires, opinions, concerns, and fears concerning SH5, but I have not read any comments where anyone is wishing SH5 were to fail. In fact, many of us are worried that SH5 may fail and we are not happy with it.

Do you not understand what's at stake? This is likely the best we're ever going to get. There is never going to be a sub sim made for us. It's too expensive and the market is too small. The best we can hope for is a game aimed at the mass market that, underneath, has the realism our community can bring out with mods. Everything I see about this game screams 'potential'. Yeah, it's got a simplified interface, but it has to to bring new people into our hobby. Without new people, our hobby dies.

Thats all well and good for the new people who will be experiencing their first Sub Sim game. But we, the more experienced subsimers, are also part of the community. Sure we want to attract new players, but we want to attract new players who want a high realism simulator, not just any new player. Ubi may only be interested in any new player ( short term $$$).

Suppose one were to take any sport like basketball. It is a highly skilled game. Suppose we all here were experienced basketball players. Suddenly one of the sports equipment manufactures wanted to expand the customer base for basketball and decided to make basket ball hoops that were five times bigger around and only 6 feet off the ground. This to encourage new customers who have never played basketball or tried in the past and found it too difficult. How would you feel about this, as an experienced basketball player? You would probably say, no thanks, what that is is not basketball.

That is how some of us feel about SH5. We like the intellectual stimulation of the simulation, not just the graphic stimulation. Ubi is to blame for this for it was Ubi who choose not to release information about aspects of the game that would appeal to the more experienced sim lover but chose to release information about aspects of the game that would appeal to more graphic eye candy motivated players.

You are right, the game is not out yet. All we have to go on is what Ubi chooses to tell us. If Ubi chooses not to release specific aspects of the game that interest us, we, as only human, will base our initial impressions on what we know about the game. It is not fair, nor is it logical, but it is human.

I'm convinced 'our game' is in there, underneath that 'ease of use' layer, if for no other reason than that it's built on SHIII/IV. They didn't throw away their code and start over.

I'm not saying everyone should be a mindless cheerleader and buy the game no matter what, but for God's sake, if SH5 fails, the franchise is quite likely finished. And with that, this hobby, that means so much to us, is DEAD.

We should not be mindless cheerleaders, nor should we be opinion-less customers either. This is, after all, an internet chat forum where people are empowered to post their opinions. Even if SH5 fails, it does not mean the franchise is dead. The SH franchise was not dead after SH2. And there is more to game design than Ubi. I think it is a bit dramatic to declare that SH5 is our last hope.



PS Fanboy, sellout, Moo. :D

[Sailor Steve]

I've never predicted it would be a failure, and I haven't nit-picked it at all. In fact, I've even defended some a couple of the decisions that others have complained about.

I too want it to succeed. But, I too can't play it as it is being released.

[Bilge_Rat]

As far as the game goes. Fail or not what I really want is a change in the development direction and give me a REALISTIC sim.:up:


That is pie in the sky Lanzfeld, no one in their right mind will develop and market a uber realistic naval game. The market is too small and the risks too great. The best we can hope for is something like the SH series, middle level realism to keep the SubNuts happy, but casual enough to appeal to the casual gamers, since you need the casual gamer market to be able to turn a profit on sims.

Consider that SH3, according to Ubi, sold 300,000 units worldwide in total, while "Call of Duty:Modern Warfare 2" sold 4,700,000 units just the FIRST DAY!.....If you were a mass market publisher, where would you invest your money?

[Lord Justice]

I swear, some people are going to actually be disappointed if the game doesn't suck! Not to mention the DRM freakout. No one has seen anything other than descriptions of unfinished previews and they're ready to write it off. Talk about cutting of your nose to spite your face!

Do you not understand what's at stake?



So now go ahead and call me a fanboy or a sellout or tell me 'moo!' a few more times if it makes you feel better.Sir Heretic, calm if you please, it has just been knocked about a little, perhaps in your view by stern ruffians, but giving it a mere bloody nose helps release some pressure. You seem a fine man with good intentions, so share a brandy and try to enjoy the sail, no matter how some these hasty scowls may present, try ask ones self, is it anothers purpose to dim my lot? are they merely sounding out their concerns and opinions also, of which perhaps differs to mine? :hmmm: As for calling you names !! rather you asked first old boy, but that would not be sensible. :nope: Good Day

[matsterman]

Short Term: FAIL
Long Term: Major Success.

The only reason this game will fail will be the DRM. It's ridiculous to go into a sale thinking that all your customers are CRIMINALS.

Piracy losses are sooo overblown. 99 percent of pirates will never buy the game, and if they ever do, it will be used off of ebay or some other source. Or, they will wait until it is marked down to $15 and buy it then.

But, while the DRM is attached, NO WAY WILL I TOUCH THIS MOTHER.

[CaptainHaplo]

I stated before that I will not purchase the game with OSP.

But that does NOT mean I want the game to fail. I want it to succeed - but I also don't want the intrusiveness that it currently being bundled in it. Ideally - OSP would fall off the table, a less intrusive DRM would be used, and then SH5 would outsell WoW. But we don't live in an ideal world. So OSP will ship - it will cost customers, at some point a decision will be made to remove the OSP (either due to lack of initial sales - or cost of server uptime) - and then SH5 sales will spike. Hopefully when that occurs, Ubi will get the picture.

[Heretic]

Sir Heretic, calm if you please, it has just been knocked about a little, perhaps in your view by stern ruffians, but giving it a mere bloody nose helps release some pressure. You seem a fine man with good intentions, so share a brandy and try to enjoy the sail, no matter how some these hasty scowls may present, try ask ones self, is it anothers purpose to dim my lot? are they merely sounding out their concerns and opinions also, of which perhaps differs to mine? :hmmm: As for calling you names !! rather you asked first old boy, but that would not be sensible. :nope: Good Day


It was just my turn to rant.:D I wasn't really meaning the DRM stuff as much as the nitpicking. We all feel strongly about this stuff because we do care how it turns out. I feel much better now that I've had a couple beers and will soon have bit of a lie down with the missus which tends to improve my attitude greatly!

Cheers!

[frenema]

Ubisoft is not a football team, they're a company that does business. That means if they don't deliver what the customers want, they'll suffer for it. Whether we like their games or not is depended on what they put out, not the other way around.

[Onkel Neal]

Yep. And if not enough customers buy what they are offering, they won't make it again.

One reason why SH5 is being aimed at the casual gamer is SH4 did not sell well enough. And how many here refused to buy SH4? Enough, obviously. Granted, SH4 was unfinished, but wait till you see SH6. It will be 100% unfinished.

[Ducimus]

My personal opinion,

After seeing the videos posted , i think the majorit will buy SH5, and all the grandstanding on SH5 will tend up being alot of hot air. SH5 looks like its going to be Das boot the video game. People on subsim tend to focus on the uboat romance and "these poor men" who are the underdog's that they like to root for. They won't be able to resist, because SH5 will deliver exactly what they've been wanting for all these years.

"The Das Boot Experience".

Seriously, how many times have you heard that expression? Seems like alot. The thing is, the culture here, your cool if your hardcore simulation grognard. So i think people will complain about it being gamey to save face or maintain impressions in the community, but end up buying it anyway because it has the experience they've really been looking for.

[FIREWALL]

Only time and sales figures will tell the whole story.

[IanC]

The thing is, the culture here, your cool if your hardcore simulation grognard. So i think people will complain about it being gamey to save face or maintain impressions in the community, but end up buying it anyway because it has the experience they've really been looking for.

hehe :up:

[cappy70]

I agree that not buying is really the "killing-field" for the franchise.
I mean it's a sitting on 2 - chair approach; Not buying with get a, like Neal said, a 100% unfinished SH 6.
Buying we push this "3 - letter" thingy forward, for worse or good??:hmmm:
( I am buying for support , but with mixed "3-word thingy" feelings)

(( BTW,, (tiny out of topic warning) I saw the rampange that came now about Bioschock 2 with having to reg. through Live and have to save with Internet hooked up, and it sounded/gave the impression to have this all the time while playing.
I bought the game and of course it was all of this the very first time starting the game to do the upload of profile, getting save going through profile etc,etc, but then it was "offline" for save and normal gaming and so on in "normal off-line mood".))

[Ships-R-Us]

Who knows.....SH5 may only appeal to the casual gamer. For the diehard realism fans there is always SH3 and more mods to make it even better than it is. The same may be also true for SH4. These two games are already years ahead of SH5 with respect to the above. But then again, someone, someday may put the mods to SH5 and turn it into a really historic and fun sim.

[IanC]

SH3 sold well didn't it? If SH4 didn't it's because it was unfinished and very buggy. If SH5 fails in sales it will be because of the DRM/OSP. So in my opinion, if the SH series ends, it will be squarely the fault of Ubisoft and its decisions. Not the customers.
Like with any other thing, give the customers what they want (within reason needless to say), and you'll have great sales. What would've happened to Coca-Cola if it decided to stick with its 'new coke' even though the customers disliked it? And if Coca-Cola went down because of it, who's fault would that be, Coca-Cola or the customers?

[Ships-R-Us]

SH3 sold well didn't it? If SH4 didn't it's because it was unfinished and very buggy. If SH5 fails in sales it will be because of the DRM/OSP. So in my opinion, if the SH series ends, it will be squarely the fault of Ubisoft and its decisions. Not the customers.
Like with any other thing, give the customers what they want (within reason needless to say), and you'll have great sales. What would've happened to Coca-Cola if it decided to stick with its 'new coke' even though the customers disliked it? And if Coca-Cola went down because of it, who's fault would that be, Coca-Cola or the customers?

You bring up a good and easy to understand point. I guess all the games had bugs and flaws which the modders turned into great artwork. Take SH4, out of the box, and to a casual game player it was a great game to many from that perspective. The historic diehard simmers viewed it dirrerently. Having said so, SH5 to the majority of the general game playing populus will be a great game out of box, and those people exist in far greater numbers than the majority of members on this forum. That is I believe where Ubisofts target and numbers are.

[Tonnage_Ace]

All I want is a highly tuned SH3 with better graphics and lots of depth. If that's delivered in the final product than I'll buy it but if not than I'll wait and see what the community does with it.

So far this game hasn't crossed into 'must buy' territory, I just keep thinking how many man hours were poured into, say the reloading animations and how lackluster they look, where could those man hours have gone instead? I hated the TDC of Sh4 and I could NEVER be as successful as I was with the SH3 TDC.

If I can input a single solution and fire at multiple targets with it than I'll be happy.

[dcb]

One reason why SH5 is being aimed at the casual gamer is SH4 did not sell well enough.

Now, this is the first time I see this mentioned here, plainly. And now that you mentioned it, Neal, could you please elaborate on why SH4 was not a top-seller?

I have my own ideas, but I would really like to hear those of others, especially yours.

Maybe this is the market/product analysis Ubi never cared to do.

BTW, I believe SH4 was such a disappointment in sales because it was the same in terms of gameplay and even moddability. Instead of building upon its famous predecessor, it tried to reinvent things and failed in a lot of aspects (ships physics and interface being just two such examples).

[MasterCaine]

No one is rooting for Ubisoft's failure. What we are saying is ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. :stare:

It has become obvious that the die-hards here will buy the game no matter how badly Ubisoft screws them over, but the rest of us have had it.

[FIREWALL]

Who knows.....SH5 may only appeal to the casual gamer. For the diehard realism fans there is always SH3 and more mods to make it even better than it is. The same may be also true for SH4. These two games are already years ahead of SH5 with respect to the above. But then again, someone, someday may put the mods to SH5 and turn it into a really historic and fun sim.

SH3 sold well didn't it? If SH4 didn't it's because it was unfinished and very buggy. If SH5 fails in sales it will be because of the DRM/OSP. So in my opinion, if the SH series ends, it will be squarely the fault of Ubisoft and its decisions. Not the customers.
Like with any other thing, give the customers what they want (within reason needless to say), and you'll have great sales. What would've happened to Coca-Cola if it decided to stick with its 'new coke' even though the customers disliked it? And if Coca-Cola went down because of it, who's fault would that be, Coca-Cola or the customers?

You bring up a good and easy to understand point. I guess all the games had bugs and flaws which the modders turned into great artwork. Take SH4, out of the box, and to a casual game player it was a great game to many from that perspective. The historic diehard simmers viewed it dirrerently. Having said so, SH5 to the majority of the general game playing populus will be a great game out of box, and those people exist in far greater numbers than the majority of members on this forum. That is I believe where Ubisofts target and numbers are.

All I want is a highly tuned SH3 with better graphics and lots of depth. If that's delivered in the final product than I'll buy it but if not than I'll wait and see what the community does with it.

So far this game hasn't crossed into 'must buy' territory, I just keep thinking how many man hours were poured into, say the reloading animations and how lackluster they look, where could those man hours have gone instead? I hated the TDC of Sh4 and I could NEVER be as successful as I was with the SH3 TDC.

If I can input a single solution and fire at multiple targets with it than I'll be happy.

Now, this is the first time I see this mentioned here, plainly. And now that you mentioned it, Neal, could you please elaborate on why SH4 was not a top-seller?

I have my own ideas, but I would really like to hear those of others, especially yours.

Maybe this is the market/product analysis Ubi never cared to do.

BTW, I believe SH4 was such a disappointment in sales because it was the same in terms of gameplay and even moddability. Instead of building upon its famous predecessor, it tried to reinvent things and failed in a lot of aspects (ships physics and interface being just two such examples).

No one is rooting for Ubisoft's failure. What we are saying is ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. :stare:

It has become obvious that the die-hards here will buy the game no matter how badly Ubisoft screws them over, but the rest of us have had it.

Excellent and refreshing posts that are easy to digest.

:up: and a :salute: to you all.

[Kapt Z]

All I want is a highly tuned SH3 with better graphics and lots of depth. If that's delivered in the final product than I'll buy it but if not than I'll wait and see what the community does with it.



I agree.:up:

[Ships-R-Us]

[QUOTE=dcb;1270341]Now, this is the first time I see this mentioned here, plainly. And now that you mentioned it, Neal, could you please elaborate on why SH4 was not a top-seller?
I have my own ideas, but I would really like to hear those of others, especially yours. End QUOTE.


It is fact that Pirated Ownership outnumbers Legal Ownership. The game was a piece of crap out of the box when viewed by the die hard purists, but when viewed by the casual gamer it was fantastic, but the "shareware" community destroyed sales, and not one thing else, as evidenced by the number of pirates playing.

Ubisoft is targeting the casual gamer and no one else. I know they have got to do something to protect sales. Speaking of pirates; I believe more than 65% of members on this forum play with pirated game copys.

[TarJak]

Speaking of pirates; I believe more than 65% of members on this forum play with pirated game copys.And you are basing that accusation on what evidence?:nope:

I believe that 100% of the statistics in the quoted text are fabrication.

[Ships-R-Us]

And you are basing that accusation on what evidence?:nope:

I believe that 100% of the statistics in the quoted text are fabrication.

I said that I based it on my belief. Everybody should be aware that pirated PC game copys outnumber legal game copies, by a whole bunch. Henceforth, I tossed up an arbitrary percentage of 65, and my poll submitted a rather conservative percentage of 60. No fabrication, based on fact, and when you do your research you may yourself become enlightened. The population of Subsim contains the same genre of players that exist everywhere.

[Tonnage_Ace]

SH3 sold well didn't it? If SH4 didn't it's because it was unfinished and very buggy. If SH5 fails in sales it will be because of the DRM/OSP. So in my opinion, if the SH series ends, it will be squarely the fault of Ubisoft and its decisions. Not the customers.
Like with any other thing, give the customers what they want (within reason needless to say), and you'll have great sales. What would've happened to Coca-Cola if it decided to stick with its 'new coke' even though the customers disliked it? And if Coca-Cola went down because of it, who's fault would that be, Coca-Cola or the customers?

Hahaha love the 'new coke' reference.

If Ubisoft is trying to appeal to -casual/non subsim players- I would laugh a hardy laugh. It's a submarine simulator that requires a mid to high range PC to run...

If you made a Venn diagram for the demographics that involves, it would be a segment so small it would be a microscopic section of the overall PC gaming community.

If someone has crunched the numbers however, how much money would it take to ostracize your fans?

[TarJak]

I said that I based it on my belief. Everybody should be aware that pirated PC game copys outnumber legal game copies, by a whole bunch. Henceforth, I tossed up an arbitrary percentage of 65, and my poll submitted a rather conservative percentage of 60. No fabrication, based on fact, and when you do your research you may yourself become enlightened. The population of Subsim contains the same genre of players that exist everywhere.
OK so let me get this straight... You base your statement on your belief but have not shown any proof that supports that belief.

You then go on to admit that the statistic was arbitrary 65% or 60% dependong on where you are posting, but that arbitrary number is based on fact, not fabrication.

I also hardly think the genre of players has any impact on their inclination towards or against piracy.

Now you want me to do some research to become enlightened?:doh:

You are the one accusing 65% of Subsimmers of playing SH with pirated disks. Back your accusation up or shut up!

[Ships-R-Us]

OK so let me get this straight... You base your statement on your belief but have not shown any proof that supports that belief.

You then go on to admit that the statistic was arbitrary 65% or 60% dependong on where you are posting, but that arbitrary number is based on fact, not fabrication.

I also hardly think the genre of players has any impact on their inclination towards or against piracy.

Now you want me to do some research to become enlightened?:doh:

You are the one accusing 65% of Subsimmers of playing SH with pirated disks. Back your accusation up or shut up!

I stated my belief based on true marketing statistics, and hearsay, and opinion. It is now time for you to go have whatever you drink early morning down under. :salute:

[HundertzehnGustav]

MOOOO!

[dcb]

Speaking of pirates; I believe more than 65% of members on this forum play with pirated game copys.

This is really a nasty accusation, which deserves some proof. Otherwise, it's just wrong and bad taste.:nope:

[BarjackU977]

Exactly!

I don't know of anyone who is writing this game off. There is a small contingent of people who are choosing to use their freedom of choice not to purchase this game while it has this specific type of DRM. These people are not hoping for SH5 to fail, they are hoping for Ubi to decide to get rid of this form of DRM.

Others on this forum have expressed desires, opinions, concerns, and fears concerning SH5, but I have not read any comments where anyone is wishing SH5 were to fail. In fact, many of us are worried that SH5 may fail and we are not happy with it.

[Ships-R-Us]

This is really a nasty accusation, which deserves some proof. Otherwise, it's just wrong and bad taste.:nope:

I don't mince words. If I have something to say about a subject, I say it. I'm not out here to win friends or look for support. I do not sit quietly passive in a corner with the heard for fear of repercussions. I may be controversial, but if you all take off the blinders and acknowledge the truth you will come to the same conservative viewpoint.

[HundertzehnGustav]

so, your conservative viewpoint is the viewpoint of one who took off the blinders, and can see some sort of "pure truth"?

That right?

Makes me laugh...

[BarjackU977]

It's true that money is needed to assure a future to the game.

Yet, is that a reason to give money, whatever Ubi comes up with? I don't think so.

I don't believe it's a lack of "tolerance" from me. I purchased SH2, SH3, SH4 + its expansion as from day 1. But I don't find it healthy to always buy, whatever happens, just for the hope of more hypothetical games of quality, and of the genre you want (simulation? More casual? etc) in the future. That would be sending a wrong message, I think.


Yep. And if not enough customers buy what they are offering, they won't make it again.

One reason why SH5 is being aimed at the casual gamer is SH4 did not sell well enough. And how many here refused to buy SH4? Enough, obviously. Granted, SH4 was unfinished, but wait till you see SH6. It will be 100% unfinished.

[Ships-R-Us]

so, your conservative viewpoint is the viewpoint of one who took off the blinders, and can see some sort of "pure truth"?

That right?

Makes me laugh...

I can see that there are people respectfully disagreeing with me. Fine. However everyone that has posted here SHOULD KNOW and BELIEVE that more pirated copys get played than legal copys. Having said that, how can one believe that Subsim contains more saints than elsewhere? The probability that there are more than 40% virgins here is a fairy tale.

[BarjackU977]

What are your sources to come up with such statistics?

It's an opinion, since you said "I believe", but still, it must come from somewhere. If not, well, you know what it's worth.

EDIT you answered earlier:
I stated my belief based on true marketing statistics, and hearsay, and opinion. It is now time for you to go have whatever you drink early morning down under.

True market statistics (any link, so we can check how they came up with those figures?)? I doubt that there are such "true" market statistics. But let's imagine there are such ones.
Here is my own opinion: I believe people here are, in average, fans of the genre, much more dedicated than the average player, and true supporters. Then I wouldn't risk to make a link between a general figure, and the situation with the players here on this forum. But there weren't any study to back either your opinion or mine with figures.


Speaking of pirates; I believe more than 65% of members on this forum play with pirated game copys.

[evan82]

Maybe this game is adressed to a little different group of players than we are:
- Wow dad, what this is?
- This is german U-Boat son.
- Woooow!
Looks like our impact on this game is marginal and UBI don't care so much about this what peoples say on this forum today, so where is the problem?:yawn:

[JScones]

I don't mince words. If I have something to say about a subject, I say it. I'm not out here to win friends or look for support. I do not sit quietly passive in a corner with the heard for fear of repercussions. I may be controversial, but if you all take off the blinders and acknowledge the truth you will come to the same conservative viewpoint.
Well, of course, while ever you quote hearsay, opinion and arbitrary figures plucked from the air as FACT, you're going to cop flack. Provide some concrete evidence, figures, Subsim user statistics, and then perhaps your argument may have credibility. Otherwise, FAIL! :nope::down:

BTW, 78.732% of Subsim members agree with me on this.

[Ragtag]

I can see that there are people respectfully disagreeing with me. Fine. However everyone that has posted here SHOULD KNOW and BELIEVE that more pirated copys get played than legal copys. Having said that, how can one believe that Subsim contains more saints than elsewhere? The probability that there are more than 40% virgins here is a fairy tale.

I usually don't do this but sir... please apply brain!

[Feuer Frei!]

I think "someone" is just out to "start" something here......does it even warrant a reply? Or does it even warrant an off topic comment.....
ie not addressing the title of the thread......
Meh, i won't bite :zzz:

[JScones]

Yep. And if not enough customers buy what they are offering, they won't make it again.

One reason why SH5 is being aimed at the casual gamer is SH4 did not sell well enough. And how many here refused to buy SH4? Enough, obviously. Granted, SH4 was unfinished, but wait till you see SH6. It will be 100% unfinished.
You know, I really tire of the guilt trip that if I don't buy the game the series will die and it will all be my fault, so I must buy it no matter how cr@p it is because the devs love me and I must be grateful and so on.

That's pure BS.

If Ubisoft put out a good game, it would sell itself. If it's cr@p, then people won't buy it. Simple supply and demand.

If the series dies it's not the fault of the consumers, it is fairly and squarely the fault of the developer (yes, I said it!) and the publisher, for failing to provide what the majority of consumers wanted.

To that end, I don't want SH5 to fail, but if it does, I will not carry any guilt. Indeed, I will see it as hopefully a fresh beginning in the subsim genre. It may take a few years, but I have no doubt that an indie dev house will take up the challenge.

In other words, I have as much loyalty to Ubisoft as they have to me...no more...no less...

[Ships-R-Us]

Maybe this game is adressed to a little different group of players than we are:
- Wow dad, what this is?
- This is german U-Boat son.
- Woooow!
Looks like our impact on this game is marginal and UBI don't care so much about this what peoples say on this forum today, so where is the problem?:yawn:

Thank you. You are correct. A large percentage of our membership consists of devoted career hearty members that fall outside the normal realm. Neal Stevens did post a statistic today referencing a game manufacturer that only sold 15,000 copies of a game in the beginning but had 80,000 patch downloads. That is well over my % estimate. Those facts and others are everywhere.

I simply got on this topic in an effort to explain "in my kind of terms" why Ubisoft is doing what they do. They are protecting their rights to ownership. Yes, SH5 out of the box is a great game to the run of the mill gamer. That is where Ubisofts focus is and with most cause.

Sh5 will play perfectly on the slowest dial-up connection. Only someone with no internet capability has a justified arguement against DRM. The others are whining without cause, which has led me to believe "pirate" in a lot of instances, not all, as there are more dishonest players than not. My arguement was reasonabally based.

Again after reading Michaels letter that Neal posted today I even went to a higher level of enlightenment.

[JScones]

Neal Stevens did post a statistic today referencing a game manufacturer that only sold 15,000 copies of a game in the beginning but had 80,000 patch downloads.
Tell me, how many people d/l the patch more than once?

Stats can be construed to prove any point, 86% of all pirates know that.

I'm not doubting piracy is an issue, but this blind throwing around of figures gleaned from the interwebs is pure lunacy, especially when most comes from the same people who are trying to defend their actions against piracy (ie, hardly an objective opinion or reasoning).

[Gunnodayak]

You know, I really tire of the guilt trip that if I don't buy the game the series will die and it will all be my fault, so I must buy it no matter how cr@p it is because the devs love me and I must be grateful and so on.

That's pure BS.

If Ubisoft put out a good game, it would sell itself. If it's cr@p, then people won't buy it. Simple supply and demand.

If the series dies it's not the fault of the consumers, it is fairly and squarely the fault of the developer (yes, I said it!) and the publisher, for failing to provide what the majority of consumers wanted.

To that end, I don't want SH5 to fail, but if it does, I will not carry any guilt. Indeed, I will see it as hopefully a fresh beginning in the subsim genre. It may take a few years, but I have no doubt that an indie dev house will take up the challenge.

In other words, I have as much loyalty to Ubisoft as they have to me...no more...no less...

JScones, be careful what are you saying about the devs, because they have a strong army of defenders here! I was even banned a short time ago for doing the heresy to "touch" one of them.:)

[FIREWALL]

FACT: The day my Preorder SH4 arrived I couldn't play it for 4hrs until the first patch that same day was released from Ubisoft.

Posts were so hot around here you needed to keep a fire extinguisher near your monitor. :haha:

I stupidly bought SH4 Gold 1.5 UBM. What a joke.

The only thing that saved it was the Modders. :salute:


The only way I'll own SH5 is if someone is dumb enough to buy it for me.

As for Ubisoft. I wouldn't lose any sleep if they went TiT's up tomorrow.

There'de be a new one the day after.

If I'm gonna feel sorry for anyone it's the Devs.
They were just doing what their Bosses told them to do.

My gut tells me if they would've been given more time and left alone to build this game.

It might have been a U-Boat Sim that would have made History in the Sim gameing world.

[Don_D_Dwain]

Hello Guys and Gals. This DRM thing, does not intrest me in the least. I mean, if I have to log on to a server to install the game, that is one thing. But as long as I don't have to log on after it is installed, Thank God. It seems that, it just may be that simple, and I hope it is. I don't have a good (new laptop), and thats ok, but one day if I want to get a new laptop, I don't want to have to be "connected" to play the games I like. It is not always that I am home on a desk top. So, I know they (the developers) don't want to be taken advangtag of, and neither do I. I have a game I can't play, cause my old system still has the game logged into when the Mother Board went ka put. Will not let that happen again, so I will approach this game with caution. The second that I loose money for something I am not getting, is the last second I will look at a product that is made by the same company. THQ sold me its last product, for that reason. Thanks, see you all next time.

[evan82]

I simply got on this topic in an effort to explain "in my kind of terms" why Ubisoft is doing what they do. They are protecting their rights to ownership. Yes, SH5 out of the box is a great game to the run of the mill gamer. That is where Ubisofts focus is and with most cause.

Sh5 will play perfectly on the slowest dial-up connection. Only someone with no internet capability has a justified arguement against DRM. The others are whining without cause, which has led me to believe "pirate" in a lot of instances, not all, as there are more dishonest players than not. My arguement was reasonabally based.

Pirates. How many "pirates" can invade my system throught DRM system?
I like to play offline, because I shut down antivirus then for better gameplay. This is one. I want to have my saves on my PC - this is two.
If I pay for something I pay for all, and I do not want pay for something, what should be mine, if part of it, will be not mine at all, capende?

[JU_88]

Every new bit of information about this game is pounced on by people gleefully picking every nit and smugly predicting SH5 a total failure because it doesn't address their pet issue to their satisfaction. I swear, some people are going to actually be disappointed if the game doesn't suck! Not to mention the DRM freakout. No one has seen anything other than descriptions of unfinished previews and they're ready to write it off. Talk about cutting of your nose to spite your face!

Do you not understand what's at stake? This is likely the best we're ever going to get. There is never going to be a sub sim made for us. It's too expensive and the market is too small. The best we can hope for is a game aimed at the mass market that, underneath, has the realism our community can bring out with mods. Everything I see about this game screams 'potential'. Yeah, it's got a simplified interface, but it has to to bring new people into our hobby. Without new people, our hobby dies.

I'm convinced 'our game' is in there, underneath that 'ease of use' layer, if for no other reason than that it's built on SHIII/IV. They didn't throw away their code and start over.

I'm not saying everyone should be a mindless cheerleader and buy the game no matter what, but for God's sake, if SH5 fails, the franchise is quite likely finished. And with that, this hobby, that means so much to us, is DEAD.

Alright, I figured I'd take my turn at a rant. So now go ahead and call me a fanboy or a sellout or tell me 'moo!' a few more times if it makes you feel better.


Well Im with you on this :DL
But yes the negativity is normal Im afraid.

[BarjackU977]

> Only someone with no internet capability has a justified arguement against DRM.
> The others are whining without cause

Don't mix your opinions and facts.

Customers have wishes/demands/requirements.
Ubisoft has requirements.

Fight Piracy is one, amongst a list of many more.

All must be taken into account (along with their relative importance), in an attempt to find an acceptable, and hopefully the best compromise for both parties.




Thank you. You are correct. A large percentage of our membership consists of devoted career hearty members that fall outside the normal realm. Neal Stevens did post a statistic today referencing a game manufacturer that only sold 15,000 copies of a game in the beginning but had 80,000 patch downloads. That is well over my % estimate. Those facts and others are everywhere.

I simply got on this topic in an effort to explain "in my kind of terms" why Ubisoft is doing what they do. They are protecting their rights to ownership. Yes, SH5 out of the box is a great game to the run of the mill gamer. That is where Ubisofts focus is and with most cause.

Sh5 will play perfectly on the slowest dial-up connection. Only someone with no internet capability has a justified arguement against DRM. The others are whining without cause, which has led me to believe "pirate" in a lot of instances, not all, as there are more dishonest players than not. My arguement was reasonabally based.

Again after reading Michaels letter that Neal posted today I even went to a higher level of enlightenment.

[martes86]

I can see that there are people respectfully disagreeing with me. Fine. However everyone that has posted here SHOULD KNOW and BELIEVE that more pirated copys get played than legal copys. Having said that, how can one believe that Subsim contains more saints than elsewhere? The probability that there are more than 40% virgins here is a fairy tale.

From where did, in your opinion, the legit SH3/4 purchases come from? From the casual gamers? Because +15,000 for each game, no matter how small a number, is more than the number of members registered here at SubSim, I think. Add to that, the number of purchases from communities that also like to support the sims. And what you get is a less 10-5% (say, probably 20% maxing it out) incidence of pirate gamers for SH3/4. Sure, if you venture into some other community, or into the casual gamers realms, there will be a lot of pirated copies there, but here, I think most of us are aware of the benefits for all of us of paying for our sims.

[Onkel Neal]

It's true that money is needed to assure a future to the game.

Yet, is that a reason to give money, whatever Ubi comes up with? I don't think so.

I don't believe it's a lack of "tolerance" from me. I purchased SH2, SH3, SH4 + its expansion as from day 1. But I don't find it healthy to always buy, whatever happens, just for the hope of more hypothetical games of quality, and of the genre you want (simulation? More casual? etc) in the future. That would be sending a wrong message, I think.

Yes, that's the counter-arguement "to buying the game even if it does not match the level of quality or features expected to keep the franchise alive", and who knows, maybe you're right. We're about to find out :)



You know, I really tire of the guilt trip that if I don't buy the game the series will die and it will all be my fault, so I must buy it no matter how cr@p it is because the devs love me and I must be grateful and so on.

That's pure BS.

If Ubisoft put out a good game, it would sell itself. If it's cr@p, then people won't buy it. Simple supply and demand.

If the series dies it's not the fault of the consumers, it is fairly and squarely the fault of the developer (yes, I said it!) and the publisher, for failing to provide what the majority of consumers wanted.

To that end, I don't want SH5 to fail, but if it does, I will not carry any guilt. Indeed, I will see it as hopefully a fresh beginning in the subsim genre. It may take a few years, but I have no doubt that an indie dev house will take up the challenge.

In other words, I have as much loyalty to Ubisoft as they have to me...no more...no less...

Guilt, loyalty, fault, blame.... all just feelings. My PC won't run those and output a simulation. You're not alone is feeling "Ubisoft is not producing a game worth $50, I'm going to stick it to them". But I don't think that is going to produce a happier result than buying the game and pushing for continued support. I'm glad people didn't adopt that stance when SH2 came out, for there would have never been a SH3.

And regarding an indie developer producing a detailed subsim, what makes you think they can do better than Ubi Romania? That's a dream, the closest thing I've ever seen in 20 years to an indie subsim is Enigma and Shells of Fury. :hmmm:

Edit: let me add this, Jaesen. I am NOT saying you are wrong or incorrect in your opinion. Not at all. But I "think" in the end, only continued sales of the current SH game will compell the only subsim game developer/publisher left to approve of a next one in the series. If you're football team loses week after week, no one wants to pay to see that. But if every fan stays home and the stands are empty, game over, the team will move or fold, and then there's no chance they will ever play and be competitive. Except in the world of submarine games, unlike sports, there's a lot less to choose from.

Edit 2: Lol, I can't let this one alone :D Last thing I want to say on the topic: With SH2 and SH4, games that were released with problems, I cheerleaded with all my might ofr people to buy them regardless. I am NOT doing that now for SH5. If everyone decides to pass on SH5, fine. But I don't think people should hold their breath for another Silent Hunter sim. Al good things come to an end sometime.

[Nisgeis]

I like to play offline, because I shut down antivirus then for better gameplay. This is one. I want to have my saves on my PC - this is two.
If I pay for something I pay for all, and I do not want pay for something, what should be mine, if part of it, will be not mine at all, capende?

Sounds like you want to have your license to cake and eat it.

[JScones]

Guilt, loyalty, fault, blame.... all just feelings. My PC won't run those and output a simulation. You're not alone is feeling "Ubisoft is not producing a game worth $50, I'm going to stick it to them". But I don't think that is going to produce a happier result than buying the game and pushing for continued support.
"Happier" is a feeling too Neal...who's going to be happier? You? Me? Ubisoft? Will my PC turn "happier" into a simulation? :hmmm:

You've reinforced the point I was making. ;):O:

And regarding an indie developer producing a detailed subsim, what makes you think they can do better than Ubi Romania? That's a dream, the closest thing I've ever seen in 20 years to an indie subsim is Enigma and Shells of Fury. :hmmm:
Well, there's a number of people here who like to remind everyone that the devs are working for us and all dodgy design choices are the cause of Ubisoft, so, the solution is easy. The devs leave Ubisoft Romania, form their own company and develop a new series of real subsims, free of the evil and bad Ubisoft.

[martes86]

But I don't think people should hold their breath for another Silent Hunter sim. Al good things come to an end sometime.

Maybe not another SH... but what about surface ships?... we've been asking that for years, the SH saga (specially its MP mode) would be incomplete without the ability to be able to control those that hunt the hunters (and bigger). Besides, I refuse to think all is lost, that this is the end. Yeah, it's looking not so good, but it's not dark yet.

Cheers :rock:

[Onkel Neal]

"Happier" is a feeling too Neal...who's going to be happier? You? Me? Ubisoft? Will my PC turn "happier" into a simulation? :hmmm:

You've reinforced the point I was making. ;):O:




Yeah, and I forgot regret, too.

[Brag]

Telling us this is the end if we don't buy is pure scare tactics. Give us a product we want and we will buy. Try to ram DRM/OSP down our throats is not good business. All UBi needs to do, is remove DRM. So far, Ubi has shown an arrogant and insulting attitude towards its clients. That is a bad business practice.

You can't sell something your client doesn't want. I don't buy clothing with holes nor shoes requiring internet connection.

SHV is not a communications device. So don't hobble it with crap.

Moo

[Onkel Neal]

Telling us this is the end if we don't buy is pure scare tactics. Give us a product we want and we will buy. Try to ram DRM/OSP down our throats is not good business. All UBi needs to do, is remove DRM. So far, Ubi has shown an arrogant and insulting attitude towards its clients. That is a bad business practice.

You can't sell something your client doesn't want. I don't buy clothing with holes nor shoes requiring internet connection.

SHV is not a communications device. So don't hobble it with crap.

Moo

Fine, don't buy it, we have to hear this every day? This is the SH5 forum, not the "I'm not buying SH5 forum."

[HundertzehnGustav]

My gut tells me if they would've been given more time and left alone to build this game.

It might have been a U-Boat Sim that would have made History in the Sim gameing world.

Hear Hear!!
:yeah:

[TarJak]

I stated my belief based on true marketing statistics, and hearsay, and opinion. It is now time for you to go have whatever you drink early morning down under. :salute:
Clearly you are incapable of forming a coherent argument backed with any proof of your claims and therefore I can only discount your original accusation as meaningless.:nope:

As to the time of day you may want to consult a clock then take a look at a time zone chart. It was late afternoon when I posted my original reply so I think I'll go and have a beer instead of a cuppa thanks.

On topic; I do care whether there will be sub sims made in future. I don't care who makes them as long as they are well made. If there is no SH6 then so be it.

That said I won't slavishly buy a game from a publisher just because they make a product line that I'm interested in. I will always excersise my right as a consumer to tell them to shove their product if it contains something I don't like enough to do so.

When I first bought SH1 years ago I had no concept that there may be a SH2 3, 4 or 5. I didn't buy SH4 and unless OSP is removed won't buy 5 until the ecomonics of the bargain bin make it what I consider worth my while submitting to the leash.

I know piracy is a major problem for the PC gaming industry, as it is for the software and recording industry, however if it eventually kills PC gaming off then the pirates will concentrate on console games maybe even killing that market as well; which by the by, they have already moved into.

I don't subscribe to the theory though that the best defense is to penalise honest customers without putting major effort into bringing the major culprits to justice.

Ultimately because this is business, however the cost of prevention and prosecution of the guilty will always be tempered by the cost of that prevention and prosecution. You almost always get what you pay for.

[MasterCaine]

You know, I really tire of the guilt trip that if I don't buy the game the series will die and it will all be my fault, so I must buy it no matter how cr@p it is because the devs love me and I must be grateful and so on.

That's pure BS.

If Ubisoft put out a good game, it would sell itself. If it's cr@p, then people won't buy it. Simple supply and demand.

If the series dies it's not the fault of the consumers, it is fairly and squarely the fault of the developer (yes, I said it!) and the publisher, for failing to provide what the majority of consumers wanted.

To that end, I don't want SH5 to fail, but if it does, I will not carry any guilt. Indeed, I will see it as hopefully a fresh beginning in the subsim genre. It may take a few years, but I have no doubt that an indie dev house will take up the challenge.

In other words, I have as much loyalty to Ubisoft as they have to me...no more...no less...

Wow, JScones. Very well stated. It's insane that so many SH fan boys here are blaming us (who are saying 'no more') for Ubisoft's slow, imminent death. Ubisoft dug their own grave by continually releasing buggy, half-finished games, and then never fully finishing or patching them later. And now they are adding this DRM crap to most of their games. I cannot believe how many people here have said that they will continue to support Ubisoft with their money, regardless of how often Ubisoft bends them over and rams them.

Ubisoft is about to learn that they screwed over their customers just once too many times. The writing is on the wall for them.

[Iron Budokan]

Make a good game and I'll buy it. Period.

Yeah. Sometimes life really is that simple.

[BarjackU977]

TarJak, small addition to your post:
piracy exist even in the world of consoles.
Back to PC, even with MMO games like WoW, piracy exists, although a big part of the game is on servers only.
Steam does not prevent piracy either.

I think that we customers understand that publishers have to put "enough DRM" to deter the easy forms of pirating, but they they should avoid impacting genuine customers with annoyances at the same time. But what does that actually mean? The right balance isn't the same for everyone.
DRM acceptance comes down to our likes, dislikes, our expectations, our principles, our perception of the rights/freedom of customers, effects on our gaming experience.

Hence our "debates" here.

Problem is that we will probably never have a good idea of the general opinion on this DRM. Even sale figures can't be considered as a representation of the acceptance of the new DRM.

[609_Avatar]

It's true that money is needed to assure a future to the game.

Yet, is that a reason to give money, whatever Ubi comes up with? I don't think so.

I don't believe it's a lack of "tolerance" from me. I purchased SH2, SH3, SH4 + its expansion as from day 1. But I don't find it healthy to always buy, whatever happens, just for the hope of more hypothetical games of quality, and of the genre you want (simulation? More casual? etc) in the future. That would be sending a wrong message, I think.

Exactly the way I feel. Though I also bought SH1 and had all the Aces series, I'm hardly as hard core as many of you are here, flight sims are my true passion. I resisted posting in this thread initially as the subject was just kind of silly to me, no offense to the original poster intended, because I haven't seen anyone say they would want the game itself to fail. It's almost hypocritical for those that imply it's our fault, meaning those that chose to not buy because of the chosen form of DRM UBI has decided to start using, and the game fails. Some feel we therefore should buy it hoping that we can save the downfall of the series... I've held this belief, to some extent, in the past and have bought games purely for the purpose of "trying to support the developer" but the number of people that actually do this are very few and in terms of the grand scheme of things, read bottom line of how profitable a game is for the publisher and whether they feel it's worth continuing with that series/genre, really doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Unfortunately I don't have a source for this but did read this years ago from a developer himself that was "in the know" and it made me rethink that belief I held. So I no longer do this- buy games simply for the purpose of supporting the developer/genre.

I tried being optimistic about some companies "seeing the light" in terms of my perception of their error in their chosen DRM- I bought RoF during a weak moment and it appears they are getting rid of their form of DRM for single player, so it may have worked in that instance but I finally decided to draw my own line in the sand here with UBI and admit to myself that gaming, despite all the hours I have put into it, is really not worth me going against something I state as my belief and principle.

So I definitely don't want SHV to fail or the series to end but I will not support UBI's decision with this form of DRM. If it does fail/end it is definitely not my (or others of like mind) fault but UBI's, plain and simple. They made their choice and I made mine. Cause and effect here.

I guess those that feel we should buy it to support the series/developer have just as much merit as those that feel people who buy the game are supporting UBI and their chosen form of DRM. Unfortunately, the former, from what a developer has publicly stated, just isn't true by measuring the profit that can be made through such actions.

[Uber Gruber]

Personaly, I couldn't give a flying monkey if there is a SH6 or not. I care even less if there is a UbiSoft or not. Both are speculative futures and if there's one thing i've learnt in life its's NO ONE has a monopoly on the future.

So i work with the here and now.....and here and now SHV will be released with DRM/OSP/KACK....so i wont buy as this is an unecessary intrusion into my life. There is no justifiable reason why i should be online to play an OFFLINE game as I am not a pirate.

If UbiSoft feel SH4 sales were low they should take a look at the quality of their work rather than looking for "pirates under the bed". But they seem to be in complete denial. They seem to assume that we, the consumer, will take it up the jakarta regardless of what they release.

I find the whole DRM/OSP/KACK issue insulting to be frank. So I care nothing for the future of the company or the SH series.

Now on the matter of Sub Sims..... I see absolutely no reason why a group of dedicated enthusiasts can't get together and create a bloody good sub sim. Quality sells....period.

As a great man once said..."The only thing you have to fear is fear itself!"

If you buy SHV because you fear the series will be binned if you don't then you really have to take a long look at your philosphy to life....and I can assure you there are "happier" ones out there. :o

Cheers, UG

[tater]

I hate being put in the position of paying Ubi "protection money."

That's the suggestion:

"You'll pays for this here game, and youse'll like it, or the subsim gets it, see?"

The proper relationship is that we, the customer, are to be wooed.

I was willing to buy SH5 even though I'd never play it to "support a decent subsim engine," but there are limits to the abuse I'll take from Ubi for the privilege of giving them what to me is nothing but a charitable contribution (and they're not even 501c3, so I can't have the accountant write it off). OSP is past that limit if I EVER know it's there by virtue of it delaying me, etc.

Before the DRM stuff, I'd have wanted it to be a success. WITH the DRM stuff, a success will only embolden Ubi, all the OSP titles need to fail since the only voice they'll listen to is sales figures. Of course the rocket scientist who thought of OSP will claim all the failures were bad games, not the OSP. Not my problem, though.

[Ragtag]

I hate being put in the position of paying Ubi "protection money."

That's the suggestion:

"You'll pays for this here game, and youse'll like it, or the subsim gets it, see?"

The proper relationship is that we, the customer, are to be wooed.

I was willing to buy SH5 even though I'd never play it to "support a decent subsim engine," but there are limits to the abuse I'll take from Ubi for the privilege of giving them what to me is nothing but a charitable contribution (and they're not even 501c3, so I can't have the accountant write it off). OSP is past that limit if I EVER know it's there by virtue of it delaying me, etc.

Before the DRM stuff, I'd have wanted it to be a success. WITH the DRM stuff, a success will only embolden Ubi, all the OSP titles need to fail since the only voice they'll listen to is sales figures. Of course the rocket scientist who thought of OSP will claim all the failures were bad games, not the OSP. Not my problem, though.

Totally agree. The sales is in the hands of Ubisoft. No one else. They are free to remove the OSP if they want to. And yes, money talks.

[Bilge_Rat]

Let's look at this another way, when SH4 was released, it was savaged on this forum as buggy, incomplete and worse.."arcadish"..:o

I reinstalled SH4 1.5 a few weeks back and have been playing it mostly stock and you know what, it is a very decent sim, even out of the box. Everything works as it should, the TDC works as it does on a real fleet boat and is a joy to use. The AI reacts to you as you would expect. As a sub skipper, you have to use real world tactics to stalk a convoy, get a kill and get out with your skin.

Now I know players will say, yes but "the battery drains in x when it should be y in real life", "you can only dive to x when it should be y in RL", "it takes x torps to sink 1943A Target MARU when it should be y", etc., etc., etc., etc.,....No doubt that is true, but that is why we have dedicated modders to fix these little issues.

Would your life have been better if Ubisoft had said after SH3: "These Subnuts are more trouble than they are worth, lets scrap this boat thingy and concentrate on Assassin's Creed 3: Neal's Revenge instead"....

[Sailor Steve]

Aw, man, only being able to post once a day is killing me! I get here this morning and I find this thread has picked up three new pages!

So, lots of stuff to do:

but wait till you see SH6. It will be 100% unfinished
Don't you mean "wait till you don't see SH6?:rotfl2:
Only someone with no internet capability has a justified arguement against DRM. The others are whining without cause, which has led me to believe "pirate" in a lot of instances, not all, as there are more dishonest players than not. My arguement was reasonabally based.
That's like saying "Only someone with something to hide needs to fear this new law". The only justified argument against DRM is that it's invasive, intrusive, abusive, controlling, and just plain wrong.

I would still buy the game, no matter what I thought was wrong with it, because SH4, SH3, SH2 and even SH1 had their problems, but were still good games (well, not SH2), but this takes the cake, crosses the line and is the last straw for me. If I had everything I wanted and money to spare I still would not buy a game I couldn't play by myself when, where and how I wanted.

Sorry to take off on the 'DRM' thing again, but it was a singular response to the above argument. And no, that was not reasonably based.

I hate being put in the position of paying Ubi "protection money."

That's the suggestion:

"You'll pays for this here game, and youse'll like it, or the subsim gets it, see?"
:rotfl2:

I swear I could actually hear Edward G. Robinson saying that!

[The Enigma]

Are you you rooting for failure for SH5

Nope, I'm not.
I'm hoping that the whole OSP/DRM will fail.

Also, I'm not concerned for the future of the SH series.
History has proven that there is an ongoing market for subsim games.

Also, we aren't boycotting SH5.
We are boycotting UBI's implemented OSP/DRM.

Like us, many other gamers are upset about the new UBI policy.
They also say that they will not buy UBI games until DRM/OSP is dropped.
There is a war going on not a (subsim)battle.

About the so far displayed quality of SH5:
Yes, there are great things added.
Yes there are errors to be seen (smaller and big ones)
Yes there are things made different (some I like some I dislike)

But I think we loose track on reality here.
There is just a given amount of time to write the code for a game.
And it's UBI who's the captain of the developers crew.
They decide what gets in and what's left out.

Remember the early days of a subsim game.
There weren't these great graphics or detailed views.
Did we then enjoy playing the game less?
I don't think so.
All things that weren't there to be seen, was added by using our fantasy.
At least so it was for me.

...my five cents. :yep:

[audessy]

The DRM will go away eventually. So far I see it not as a bad game. Just something different. Someone said it's the "Need for Speed Hot Pursuit" full of eye candy but lacking the depth of prior simulators. That made sense to me. I'm going to enjoy it like any other game instead of constantly comparing it to it's ancestors.

I'm going to buy it when I get the money. Sorry guys, not going to sit around and grunt with yall.

[Sailor Steve]

The DRM will go away eventually. So far I see it not as a bad game. Just something different. Someone said it's the "Need for Speed Hot Pursuit" full of eye candy but lacking the depth of prior simulators. That made sense to me. I'm going to enjoy it like any other game instead of constantly comparing it to it's ancestors.
And I support your decision fully. No one should be calling folks names for expressing opinions, and yours is as valid as anyone's.

I'm going to buy it when I get the money. Sorry guys, not going to sit around and grunt with yall.
Good on ya! I for one am not grunting; just stating my opinion as well. I'll buy it when I can play it.

[danurve]

Oh the DRM will eventually go away you say hrmm? Well that's a stretch for optimism. And I'm starting to think even by the time it does, if it does, I'll have lost intrest in this game.

I am Not rooting for the failure of SH5, no more then I want a flat tire.

Still, the bottom line for me & the only real protest left is no purchase with that requirment.

Wouldn't want to be in Neal's shoes these days.

[Brag]

Oh the DRM will eventually go away you say hrmm? Well that's a stretch for optimism. And I'm starting to think even by the time it does, if it does, I'll have lost intrest in this game.

I am Not rooting for the failure of SH5, no more then I want a flat tire.

Still, the bottom line for me & the only real protest left is no purchase with that requirment.

Wouldn't want to be in Neal's shoes these days.

This is the problem. Ubi is not only losing customers today. Many will drift off forever. It will take a long time to get rid of the sour taste after Ubi has lifted the DRM restrictions. It's a very sad situation. :nope::nope::nope::nope::nope:

[Ships-R-Us]

Pirates. How many "pirates" can invade my system throught DRM system?
I like to play offline, because I shut down antivirus then for better gameplay. This is one. I want to have my saves on my PC - this is two.
If I pay for something I pay for all, and I do not want pay for something, what should be mine, if part of it, will be not mine at all, capende?

I agree with you about enjoying offline play. As far as pirates invading your system as a result of the implimented DRM, your firewall ensures against that. Your system is just as vulnerable here as it would be playing the game.

I think an area of greater concern is the safety and protection of the server hosting SH5. I have empathy for someone several years into a campaign when a hacker infects the server, at which time I would hold Ubisoft liable for the emotional damage I suffered......

[Onkel Neal]

In other words, I have as much loyalty to Ubisoft as they have to me...no more...no less...

*Sigh* I can see your thought process. But it's not about loyalty. It's about the numbers, sales, the reality that low sales = RIP SH, and about the love for submarine games. Even if they are unfinished when released and depend on patches and modders to coax them to a higher level.

Man, if you guys have this loyalty thing rooted in your minds, go buy a toaster or something :O:


Wouldn't want to be in Neal's shoes these days. Meh, my shoes are ok, but ask me in 2020 when I'm still playing SH3,4, and 5...

[Onkel Neal]

I find the whole DRM/OSP/KACK issue insulting to be frank. So I care nothing for the future of the company or the SH series.

Now on the matter of Sub Sims..... I see absolutely no reason why a group of dedicated enthusiasts can't get together and create a bloody good sub sim. Quality sells....period.




Awesome! Let's start! You do the programming, ok? I'll do the game design and instruct you on every facet. And everyone else here will tell you how much you suck and refuse to buy the game! :rock: Easy!! You have six weeks to get to milestone#1, get busy.

Let's look at this another way, when SH4 was released, it was savaged on this forum as buggy, incomplete and worse.."arcadish"..:o

I reinstalled SH4 1.5 a few weeks back and have been playing it mostly stock and you know what, it is a very decent sim, even out of the box. Everything works as it should, the TDC works as it does on a real fleet boat and is a joy to use. The AI reacts to you as you would expect. As a sub skipper, you have to use real world tactics to stalk a convoy, get a kill and get out with your skin.

Now I know players will say, yes but "the battery drains in x when it should be y in real life", "you can only dive to x when it should be y in RL", "it takes x torps to sink 1943A Target MARU when it should be y", etc., etc., etc., etc.,....No doubt that is true, but that is why we have dedicated modders to fix these little issues.

Would your life have been better if Ubisoft had said after SH3: "These Subnuts are more trouble than they are worth, lets scrap this boat thingy and concentrate on Assassin's Creed 3: Neal's Revenge instead"....

Ha! Imagine if people had chosen to wisely ignore SH2? I mean, to be honest, it was 18 months overdue, had a scripted campaign, terrible AI and multiplayer, no crews.... yeah, the consumers around here should have skipped it, we all should have put our foot down and skipped SH2. Oh, except for the part that the decent sales of SH2 encouraged Ubi to make SH3....

Yeah, seriously, even with the bugs and missing features, SH4 wasn't as bad as the hysteria described.

[AVGWarhawk]

Awesome! Let's start! You do the programming, ok? I'll do the game design and instruct you on every facet. And everyone else here will tell you how much you suck and refuse to buy the game! :rock:


Awesome! I'm in. When can I start the moaning? :O:

DRM...drink more rum! :D

[Seafireliv]

Every new bit of information about this game is pounced on by people gleefully picking every nit and smugly predicting SH5 a total failure because it doesn't address their pet issue to their satisfaction. I swear, some people are going to actually be disappointed if the game doesn't suck! Not to mention the DRM freakout. No one has seen anything other than descriptions of unfinished previews and they're ready to write it off. Talk about cutting of your nose to spite your face!

Do you not understand what's at stake? This is likely the best we're ever going to get. There is never going to be a sub sim made for us. It's too expensive and the market is too small. The best we can hope for is a game aimed at the mass market that, underneath, has the realism our community can bring out with mods. Everything I see about this game screams 'potential'. Yeah, it's got a simplified interface, but it has to to bring new people into our hobby. Without new people, our hobby dies.

I'm convinced 'our game' is in there, underneath that 'ease of use' layer, if for no other reason than that it's built on SHIII/IV. They didn't throw away their code and start over.

I'm not saying everyone should be a mindless cheerleader and buy the game no matter what, but for God's sake, if SH5 fails, the franchise is quite likely finished. And with that, this hobby, that means so much to us, is DEAD.

Alright, I figured I'd take my turn at a rant. So now go ahead and call me a fanboy or a sellout or tell me 'moo!' a few more times if it makes you feel better.


You have to have principles. You can`t drop your principles because you like subsims so much. How far does it go? How much will you allow yourself to be taken advantage of because you love subsims? Do you think that company execs and such are saying "we must go easy on the customer because we care so much for them` like you? No, they couldn`t care less for you, only your money.

When Rise Of flight first came out there was some argument in my squad about the 24\7 internet activation. I really like WW1 flight sims, but would not buy the sim if this 24\7 was kept in the game. I was accused that i can`t possibly like WW1 sims enough if that was case. But they completely misunderstood that i love WW1 sims, but I will not be held to ransom by greedy companies using my love of something to take advantage of me.

Now ROF will soon allow an OFFline mode. My patience was worth it, my principles remained intact and the ROF people learned a lesson- We cannot all be taken advatange of just because we love the genre.

The same goes for SHV devs.

And again, less of the wringing of hands because they`re the only ones who make Subsims, there will be others and they don`t care a whit for you as you seem to for them. To them you are just money, that`s all.

And if they are too stubborn to change then it is not up to us to keep their company afloat. If they collapse then that is their own doing. We, the customer, protested, told them why and they didn`t listen. Any company that refuses to listen and act on customer concerns deserves to go down whether we want them to or not.

[Polak]

I must jump in and say that it would be really cool if subsim developed and published its own submarine simulator. :DL

[Nisgeis]

Awesome! Let's start! You do the programming, ok? I'll do the game design and instruct you on every facet. And everyone else here will tell you how much you suck and refuse to buy the game! :rock:

No! You've got it backwards! YOU don't design the game, the community does. Every design decision you make, you charge people $0.10 to vote in a poll. The most popular option gets done. The beauty is, you can ask if the community think the game is finished yet and they will pay to vote No! You get the money, we all get a say and no one gets a half finished game. It's win all round. When they want automatic TDC that is also semiautomatic AND manual AND voice controlled AND handled by your 1st watch officer AND your tracking party AND the Captain, just like we all know is and isn't realistic (whatever that is) at the same time, you can just have extra 'options', which of course would require an extra poll.

[Heretic]

I'm not on the other side of the DRM issue. I do agree the publishers' reaction to piracy, real or imagined, is hastening the end of pc gaming. But I believe the death spiral was well underway before DRM. PC gaming has been losing out to consoles for years now. A simple stroll through the pc games section (if it even still exists) of an electronics store tells the tale. They'll dick around with various DRM schemes for a few more years, further alienating their customers, but ultimately they'll just stop making them and put their development money into lowest common denomitor console games. What this community does or doesn't won't change that.

I'm too old and tired for noble causes and banging my head against the wall and always losing. Been there. Done that. Wasn't worth the pain. I freely admit, my reasons for wanting to get what I can now are purely selfish.

[thyro]

I don't wish SH5 a fail... but its graphs have much less quality than what exists today on SH4... so again would have to be the community to solve the holes left from one unfinished game.

And I've not played it yet to see what else lacks... therefore I'm not that impressed with what I've seen of SH5 till now.

[cappy70]

(I was in the intense SH2 debate and it was i n t e n s e.)

Same reason why I compared Bioschock 2 and about things that turned out to be about just sooo much true, according to pre-talks about the saves,online profile upload (big item this one) etc,etc, and then reality was completly different.

That is exactly why I want to buy SH5 and see for myself first.

[col_Kurtz]

One reason why SH5 is being aimed at the casual gamer is SH4 did not sell well enough.

Reason in my opinion is one. Too many bugs and than too many patches and bugs again. U-boat with English commands... A small mistake, error... let`s do anything to sail more? Wrong way.
And next thing... This game isn`t for everybody not for mass. We got game from Ubi for everybody. So this is the way to make a BIG money. I know, it`s a busines, but business could be good too.
Fail the SH5? No, fail wrong idea.
I saw... I read... somewhere, I don`t remember where and when... this game is for us they are reading our threads and listening us... Am I wrong or I`m a stupid guy?
And I think... if someone love this game will buy it. So Ubi team don`t spoil this time again, PLEASE.
Sorry for my English...

[Onkel Neal]

I must jump in and say that it would be really cool if subsim developed and published its own submarine simulator. :DL


Yeah, it would. And someday I may pull some of my money out of the market and bankroll one.

And it will have zero DRM. Promise!

[col_Kurtz]

I must jump in and say that it would be really cool if subsim developed and published its own submarine simulator. :DL
Więc kupić, nie kupić... Oto jest pytanie :D

[Onkel Neal]

No! You've got it backwards! YOU don't design the game, the community does. Every design decision you make, you charge people $0.10 to vote in a poll. The most popular option gets done. The beauty is, you can ask if the community think the game is finished yet and they will pay to vote No! You get the money, we all get a say and no one gets a half finished game. It's win all round. When they want automatic TDC that is also semiautomatic AND manual AND voice controlled AND handled by your 1st watch officer AND your tracking party AND the Captain, just like we all know is and isn't realistic (whatever that is) at the same time, you can just have extra 'options', which of course would require an extra poll.

Beautiful!! The perpertual money making machine, count me in!! :rock: They will never be happy, just voting and voting until we have:

Should we have the head fully modeled?
Yes
No

Player Xboot589Urg: "The secondary discharge block valve is the wrong color."
Should we redesign the secondary discharge block valve?
Yes
No

Player ScatWolf64: The water swirls the wrong way on the north side of the equator.....
Should we redesign the head water swirl dynamics?
Yes
No

Player DeppCusterCoolkid: "The crew does not blink realistically"
Shutup! We are working on the head now!!

:rotfl2:

[GermanGS]

I don't understand this panic.

What is going on with everyone :doh: ? Most of people on this forum seem so down about the game. Complain about everything there is to complain about.

No wounder UBI or even Neal Don't show anything, it turns every thread in to complain thread.

First, people were talking about how much no one wants an eye candy, in the game and only functionality, like being able to turn every single nub in the sub.

Then first torpedo video comes out, and people start complaining that the eye candy part of the loading was wrong and there is not enough people loading the torp, and were doing it too sloppy. So then there wasn't enough eye-candy this time? I don't get it.

It seems to be the paradox with everything about the game. Seems that everyone is so picky about every button, shadow,
light-bulbs don't shine right way,
crew don't look at the commander with the right impression on their faces. :o
if someone wants to make the game perfect then volunteer, to UBI Romania's development crew, Help, and make it "perfect".

My father is a Software Architect and performance specialist, he writes, fixes optimizes etc.. software for life, not for games thought but for Merrill Lynch, Merc Pharmaceuticals, software that counts royalties for BSM'G And Universal Studios, and how much Brittany should get from every song sold on Itunes.

His thought about silent hunter, not having 52 people running around, and reacting to everything, doing Dynamic actions rather then static, is that, majority of players, simply does not have strong enough PC's to be able to process so much data at good frame-rate, video card is not only factor were people will have problems, but it is RAM space and RAM speed, you would need a DDR3 memory and Motherboard to support it AT LEAST, and Good processor Python II at the least Also, Or Core I7. That is why UBI is adjusting to as many computers they can. So anyone can play. IT IS NOT cutting corners, it is making the game available. To a bigger Audience, and it is the way to srvive, espacially with this economy were even the ever stable Dollar is falling apart, and all of the countries quietly switching to Euro.

And yes the DRM, OK i agree a bad idea. Probably someone came to UBI's main office and told the CEO, how the UBI company can make more money, by Stopping Their games from being floating on the Internet. That someone showed some percents, some numbers etc.. All UBI had to Is to invest 5 Mill, (Just Speculating) in to that companies servers and software integration, and UBI would Get back 10 million, thus making 4 Million more. Witch would be appalling to anyone no?

Except that "someone" didn't mention that community might not like such GREAT idea. So UBI invested into it probably, and probably invested a lot, but only now realizing that it was after all a GREAT idea, To get many customers very very mad. And to them it would seem money thrown out the window, that is why they are not saying much about it, and see how things hold out.

Nevertheless, I really don't understand the panic, the game looks like a 5th generation Fighter Jet, or simply awesome. It has More potential and is defiantly a step into the future just like SH3 was in its glorious days.

I will defiantly get the game, in-fact i already did so.

I'm Ready to Dive in on March 2nd :arrgh!:

:rock:

[AVGWarhawk]

Beautiful!! The perpertual money making machine, count me in!! :rock: They will never be happy, just voting and voting until we have:

Should we have the head fully modeled?
Yes
No

Player Xboot589Urg: "The secondary discharge block valve is the wrong color."
Should we redesign the secondary discharge block valve?
Yes
No

Player ScatWolf64: The water swirls the wrong way on the north side of the equator.....


:rotfl2:

Does the water swirl the opposite direction below the equator? :hmmm: I would have to agree here. Some of us are anal when it comes to detail. Including myself:stare:. We would never get it done! :haha:

[col_Kurtz]

I don't understand this panic.

What is going on with everyone :doh: ? Most of people on this forum seem so down about the game. Complain about everything there is to complain about.

No wounder UBI or even Neal Don't show anything, it turns every thread in to complain thread.

First, people were talking about how much no one wants an eye candy, in the game and only functionality, like being able to turn every single nub in the sub.

Then first torpedo video comes out, and people start complaining that the eye candy part of the loading was wrong and there is not enough people loading the torp, and were doing it too sloppy. So then there wasn't enough eye-candy this time? I don't get it.

It seems to be the paradox with everything about the game. Seems that everyone is so picky about every button, shadow,
light-bulbs don't shine right way,
crew don't look at the commander with the right impression on their faces. :o
if someone wants to make the game perfect then volunteer, to UBI Romania's development crew, Help, and make it "perfect".

My father is a Software Architect and performance specialist, he writes, fixes optimizes etc.. software for life, not for games thought but for Merrill Lynch, Merc Pharmaceuticals, software that counts royalties for BSM'G And Universal Studios, and how much Brittany should get from every song sold on Itunes.

His thought about silent hunter, not having 52 people running around, and reacting to everything, doing Dynamic actions rather then static, is that, majority of players, simply does not have strong enough PC's to be able to process so much data at good frame-rate, video card is not only factor were people will have problems, but it is RAM space and RAM speed, you would need a DDR3 memory and Motherboard to support it AT LEAST, and Good processor Python II at the least Also, Or Core I7. That is why UBI is adjusting to as many computers they can. So anyone can play. IT IS NOT cutting corners, it is making the game available. To a bigger Audience, and it is the way to srvive, espacially with this economy were even the ever stable Dollar is falling apart, and all of the countries quietly switching to Euro.

And yes the DRM, OK i agree a bad idea. Probably someone came to UBI's main office and told the CEO, how the UBI company can make more money, by Stopping Their games from being floating on the Internet. That someone showed some percents, some numbers etc.. All UBI had to Is to invest 5 Mill, (Just Speculating) in to that companies servers and software integration, and UBI would Get back 10 million, thus making 4 Million more. Witch would be appalling to anyone no?

Except that "someone" didn't mention that community might not like such GREAT idea. So UBI invested into it probably, and probably invested a lot, but only now realizing that it was after all a GREAT idea, To get many customers very very mad. And to them it would seem money thrown out the window, that is why they are not saying much about it, and see how things hold out.

Nevertheless, I really don't understand the panic, the game looks like a 5th generation Fighter Jet, or simply awesome. It has More potential and is defiantly a step into the future just like SH3 was in its glorious days.

I will defiantly get the game, in-fact i already did so.

I'm Ready to Dive in on March 2nd :arrgh!:

:rock:

I`m ready too... but I remember my disapointed after buying SH4... and when I couldn`t finish first patrol. In Poland it was a lot of money :cool:

[Seafireliv]

That is exactly why I want to buy SH5 and see for myself first.

That`s all UBI needs you to do. It`s a guaranteed sale for them once you`ve paid. If you hate it, you won`t be able to return it. Even in Britain more shops are getting wise to this registering by the net thing to refuse returns.

[danurve]

Quote:
Originally Posted by danurve http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1271140#post1271140)

I find the whole DRM/OSP/KACK issue insulting to be frank. So I care nothing for the future of the company or the SH series.

Now on the matter of Sub Sims..... I see absolutely no reason why a group of dedicated enthusiasts can't get together and create a bloody good sub sim. Quality sells....period.



Awesome! Let's start! You do the programming, ok? I'll do the game design and instruct you on every facet. And everyone else here will tell you how much you suck and refuse to buy the game! :rock: Easy!! You have six weeks to get to milestone#1, get busy.


Excuse ME ...

I did NOT make that post.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1270704&postcount=70

Wow..

[AVGWarhawk]

I`m ready too... but I remember my disapointed after buying SH4... and when I couldn`t finish first patrol. In Poland it was a lot of money :cool:


Yes, but look at SH4 now. SH3, after three months I was done with it. Mods made the replay value last years and years. Same with SH4 and SH5 will get the same. :03:

[Onkel Neal]

Excuse ME ...

I did NOT make that post.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1270704&postcount=70

Wow..

My apologies, mate, my error. I somehow got the wrong quote tag.

I fixed it, should now read;



Originally Posted by Uber Gruber

I find the whole DRM/OSP/KACK issue insulting to be frank. So I care nothing for the future of the company or the SH series.

Now on the matter of Sub Sims..... I see absolutely no reason why a group of dedicated enthusiasts can't get together and create a bloody good sub sim. Quality sells....period.


Awesome! Let's start! You do the programming, ok? I'll do the game design and instruct you on every facet. And everyone else here will tell you how much you suck and refuse to buy the game! :rock: Easy!! You have six weeks to get to milestone#1, get busy.




My mistake. Post edited. Back flogged.


:salute:

[Heretic]

Now Neal, since you're the boss, you'll need to be sending constant memos to the developers telling them: Do it faster! Do it cheaper! Do it with fewer people or we'll ship your jobs off to India!
It really does help produce a quality product.

[Randomizer]

Neal Stevens wrote:
It's about the numbers, sales, the reality that low sales = RIP SH, and about the love for submarine games. Even if they are unfinished when released and depend on patches and modders to coax them to a higher level.
With all respect to everything you have accomplished with SubSim I think this is entirely the wrong idea. If you reward publishers by purchasing garbage programs to preserve a niche market you only encourage them to market more garbage that will eventually kill the niche you are trying to save. The death of the Silent Hunter franchise may well be a boon to PC submarine simulations in the future. Or not; and in any case it's too early to book passage to the funeral.

Many have written that broadening the sub game base is essential to survival of the hobby but I would suggest that any hobby that demands something new and shiny every two years is not a hobby at all, just a fad.

The hugely talented modders around here have performed miracles to make the SH series what it is today and I can unequivocally state that I have not yet utilized modded SH3 or SH4 to their full potential. With lots of mileage left in both titles, as far as I am concerned SH5 is entirely unnecessary and I have seen nothing so far that makes me want to own the stock version with or without OSP.

Whether anyone wishes SH5 to fail is moot, UBISoft has selected a particular business model and the evidence so far suggests that they are prepared to stick to it regardless of alienating the so-called Hard-Core submarine simulation crowd. The aim seems to be to acquire a new base more interested in easy to program (but expensive to produce) glitzy graphics rather than hard to program historically reasonable game-play features many of which have been discussed to death around here. Customers who are comfortable with DRM, DLC and pay-for-play purchases and so on that many who started out with Silent Service on the C-64 hate with a passion. Myself included.

The market will ultimately accept or reject SH5 and UBISoft's OSP but I predict that anybody wishing it away anytime soon will be disappointed.

[thyro]

Yes, but look at SH4 now. SH3, after three months I was done with it. Mods made the replay value last years and years. Same with SH4 and SH5 will get the same. :03:

You mean ... you would be able to play SH5 for years if... (a big) IF UBI and who looks after the DRM servers don't go down. :hmmm:

[tomfon]

My primary concern is not the DRM feature but the bugs. If Ubisoft delivers a bug-free game or at least a game that has no numerous and serious bugs like the ones we saw in SH3 then yes, i'm going to buy the game. In my opinion the game is more likely to fail due to serious bugs and not because of the DRM thing. On the other hand, even a buggy game may prove to be a success ; SH3 was successful though SH5 has to do better than that. I truly hope that SH5 will be playable right out of the box.

[col_Kurtz]

Yes, but look at SH4 now. SH3, after three months I was done with it. Mods made the replay value last years and years. Same with SH4 and SH5 will get the same. :03:

Cross my fingers :cool: I just wish for myself and other guys just good and playable game... without WTC... F!!! etc. ;)
So... so maybe Ubi made just 2 -3 boats in the bowl of water one plane and rest is for hand made and testgamer? ;)
I`m kidding, I hope ;)

[AVGWarhawk]

Cross my fingers :cool: I just wish for myself and other guys just good and playable game... without WTC... F!!! etc. ;)
So... so maybe Ubi made just 2 -3 boats in the bowl of water one plane and rest is for hand made and testgamer? ;)
I`m kidding, I hope ;)


I'm thinking we will see less bugs but we will see more things to mod, fix and repair. It is in our nature. The developers said the game is very moddable. I will say it looks more arcade than SH4 every was but in reality these things can be modded out or in.

[FIREWALL]

I don't think price has ever been the big issue.

Alot here are insulted in how they have to play the game and, for some that is difficult.

And for others, the server setup they have to trust will work

[AVGWarhawk]

You mean ... you would be able to play SH5 for years if... (a big) IF UBI and who looks after the DRM servers don't go down. :hmmm:


I see one final patch with DRM being removed in that patch. If you played SH4 you will remember a patch that slipped in a .exe file that removed the requirement to have the disc in the drive to play the game. I see that same thing happening here. I do not see UBI having to funnel resources to a server forever. Does not pay in the long run.

[Heretic]

For that very reason I passed on Jutland. They're such a small studio, I didn't want to risk 'that one last patch' to make the game playable without phoning home. To me, in order to have a sub sim, it's worth taking that risk with UBI.

[Jimbuna]

I see one final patch with DRM being removed in that patch. If you played SH4 you will remember a patch that slipped in a .exe file that removed the requirement to have the disc in the drive to play the game. I see that same thing happening here. I do not see UBI having to funnel resources to a server forever. Does not pay in the long run.

Agreed http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[Ducimus]

As far as the metaphore of "Buy the game or the series gets it" goes, i think there might be some degree of truth in that. How many simulations are released in todays market? And of that, how many are sub sims? I don't know the numbers but they must be incredibly low.

So i think It's entirely possible SH5 could be the last submarine sim you see for a very long time. And i'll be honest, considering the PTO has been taking a back seat to myths and romance about the Uboatwaffe, it wouldn't bother me in the least if the series was deep sixed and nobody saw a new uboat sim for the next 11 years, which is the time elapsed between SH1 and SH4. I'll bet by that time, if your still into sub sims, you'll take whatever you can get and make the most of it.

[mookiemookie]

I see one final patch with DRM being removed in that patch. If you played SH4 you will remember a patch that slipped in a .exe file that removed the requirement to have the disc in the drive to play the game. I see that same thing happening here. I do not see UBI having to funnel resources to a server forever. Does not pay in the long run.

Makes perfect sense to me. Once Ubi has squeezed as much money as they can out of the title, it makes no sense to keep plunking money into keeping the servers running. At that point, the impact of piracy on sales is negligible.

[KL-alfman]

With all respect to everything you have accomplished with SubSim I think this is entirely the wrong idea. If you reward publishers by purchasing garbage programs to preserve a niche market you only encourage them to market more garbage that will eventually kill the niche you are trying to save. The death of the Silent Hunter franchise may well be a boon to PC submarine simulations in the future. Or not; and in any case it's too early to book passage to the funeral.

Many have written that broadening the sub game base is essential to survival of the hobby but I would suggest that any hobby that demands something new and shiny every two years is not a hobby at all, just a fad.

The hugely talented modders around here have performed miracles to make the SH series what it is today and I can unequivocally state that I have not yet utilized modded SH3 or SH4 to their full potential. With lots of mileage left in both titles, as far as I am concerned SH5 is entirely unnecessary and I have seen nothing so far that makes me want to own the stock version with or without OSP.

Whether anyone wishes SH5 to fail is moot, UBISoft has selected a particular business model and the evidence so far suggests that they are prepared to stick to it regardless of alienating the so-called Hard-Core submarine simulation crowd. The aim seems to be to acquire a new base more interested in easy to program (but expensive to produce) glitzy graphics rather than hard to program historically reasonable game-play features many of which have been discussed to death around here. Customers who are comfortable with DRM, DLC and pay-for-play purchases and so on that many who started out with Silent Service on the C-64 hate with a passion. Myself included.

The market will ultimately accept or reject SH5 and UBISoft's OSP but I predict that anybody wishing it away anytime soon will be disappointed.


fine post and wisely chosen words.
couldn't agree more and just like to add that some terrific mods just were finished for SH3 (diesel engine room, exterior lightmaps).

[martes86]

I see one final patch with DRM being removed in that patch. If you played SH4 you will remember a patch that slipped in a .exe file that removed the requirement to have the disc in the drive to play the game. I see that same thing happening here. I do not see UBI having to funnel resources to a server forever. Does not pay in the long run.

I hope that wouldn't also kill MP gaming. :06:

[Onkel Neal]

As far as the metaphore of "Buy the game or the series gets it" goes, i think there might be some degree of truth in that. How many simulations are released in todays market? And of that, how many are sub sims? I don't know the numbers but they must be incredibly low.

So i think It's entirely possible SH5 could be the last submarine sim you see for a very long time. And i'll be honest, considering the PTO has been taking a back seat to myths and romance about the Uboatwaffe, it wouldn't bother me in the least if the series was deep sixed and nobody saw a new uboat sim for the next 11 years, which is the time elapsed between SH1 and SH4. I'll bet by that time, if your still into sub sims, you'll take whatever you can get and make the most of it.

Very thoughtful observation. :yep:

[Sailor Steve]

Well, the way I play it could take me at least that many years to finish a full set of SH3 and SH4 careers.

Come to think of it, I've never finished a full set of AOD and SH1 careers either.:hmmm:

Now I'm thinking...:ping:

[Uber Gruber]

Awesome! Let's start! You do the programming, ok? I'll do the game design and instruct you on every facet. And everyone else here will tell you how much you suck and refuse to buy the game! :rock: Easy!! You have six weeks to get to milestone#1, get busy.

Not so easy sunshine...each to their skills. I'll code the algorithms, or rather the core logic engine.....and i'll be bankrolling it too :O:.

I see you more as the nicely sculptured block of wood on the front of a ship. ;)

Now we just need someone for the graphics and sounds..:hmmm:

[Steeltrap]

As far as the metaphore of "Buy the game or the series gets it" goes, i think there might be some degree of truth in that. How many simulations are released in todays market?

When the quality of life (or sim, in this case) becomes insufferable, I'm all in favour of euthanasia in the right circumstances.

In short, when the sim no longer resembles what I am interested in as a sim, I am completely indifferent to its continued survival.

[Sailor Steve]

Now we just need someone for the graphics and sounds..:hmmm:
Well, if you're putting up the money I can supply realistic navy-talk-type voices.

But only if it's a US-boat game. If it's German someone else vill haf to do te tahkink.

[AVGWarhawk]

I hope that wouldn't also kill MP gaming. :06:

Probably not. The game does not need to phone home anymore. Perhaps the last patch would provide the MP capability. Maybe in a pay for addon with additional content. It worked for SH4. Lets do the math logically. The game gets released. There is the initial glut of purchases at $49.99 or whatever. This goes on for say 6 months. Meanwhile, there are patches made for a fix or a "thanks from UBI' boat added. Others are still making purchases at full price. Eventually the price drops to $19.99 and then $9.99. Does not take long. Does it make financial sense to run, have upkeep and staff this server for DRM? In the long run I would say no. It is diminishing returns on the sales of the games that overrides the cost to keep this server up and running. So really, at $9.99 for a game most will just buy it instead of pirating a copy I would think. What does UBI really get to keep this DRM going for years? I can't think of reason to do that. What is your thoughts? I could be way off base but that is how I see it.

[tater]

The notion of support for the sake of support has gotten what, exactly?

People want u-boats? OK, guess it got that.

Did people really clamor for more fluff eyecandy, though? I'm all for USEFUL eyecandy, mind you. But interiors? Why anyone would hang their hat on interior nonsense is beyond me. How does that help during the required time compression? What USE is it? Do you need to open up floor plates and fix stuff yourself?

Eyecandy people want is better sea and weather. Better and more targets and escorts. Better AI. A realistic paradigm of player as skipper---concentrating on making the firing party better looking, interesting, and interactive would have made FAR more sense than making an engine room you can do NOTHING with other than look at (once, for a few seconds).

Bottom line is that this thing was gelled up before we ever knew for sure it was coming out. Responsiveness to those of us willing to buy just to support the series/genre? Zip.

Maybe someone will make a good age of sail game and I can play that instead (course they'll do the same and dumb down the sim aspects in favor of meaningless eyecandy, too, lol).

[Ducimus]

Did people really clamor for more fluff eyecandy, though?

I think so. At least, thats what working on a supermod for SH4 has lead me to believe. People will install visually oriented mods over a supermod, regardless of what functionality it might break, and many of those users will install A LOT Of them. I've seen similar behavior in SH3 as well. It's like they can't resist.

[tater]

I think so. At least, thats what working on a supermod for SH4 has lead me to believe. People will install visually oriented mods over a supermod, regardless of what functionality it might break, and many of those users will install A LOT Of them. I've seen similar behavior in SH3 as well. It's like they can't resist.

True, but sea state, visibility, skins on ships are all stuff you see all the time.

You'll only see the loading animation ONCE likely. You'll see the sea constantly.

If there was a fleet boat internal mod, heck, I'd likely grab it. I'd not USE it much though

[Jerik]

Probably not. The game does not need to phone home anymore. Perhaps the last patch would provide the MP capability. Maybe in a pay for addon with additional content. It worked for SH4. Lets do the math logically. The game gets released. There is the initial glut of purchases at $49.99 or whatever. This goes on for say 6 months. Meanwhile, there are patches made for a fix or a "thanks from UBI' boat added. Others are still making purchases at full price. Eventually the price drops to $19.99 and then $9.99. Does not take long. Does it make financial sense to run, have upkeep and staff this server for DRM? In the long run I would say no. It is diminishing returns on the sales of the games that overrides the cost to keep this server up and running. So really, at $9.99 for a game most will just buy it instead of pirating a copy I would think. What does UBI really get to keep this DRM going for years? I can't think of reason to do that. What is your thoughts? I could be way off base but that is how I see it.

I've been posting a bit about the server lately, and I'll probably continue doing it to help set things straight. There isn't going to be a "Silent Hunter 5" server sitting somewhere authorizing the game; it doesn't work like that. Reality is that all games will submit to an Authorization server; that is, Assassin's Creed 2, Splinter Cell Conviction, Silent Hunter 5, and whatever other games will all submit to the same server (or set of servers, each communicating with all games). As such, this makes it unlikely that one day they'll decide to simply stop authorizing on account of cost, as the server impact will be very low.

What you might see is Ubisoft revoke some of the "features" the DRM will offer you -- like cloud-stored savegames. Those games will take up a very real chunk of storage space, and that does cost them money. At some point, SH5 may not be able to save games to the cloud, but you can bet your ass you'll still need to authorize with the server. The reality is that server authorization will eat up so few CPU cycles and such limited bandwidth that the requirement to authorize will never make a reasonable economic impact on them.

In short, your only hope to see the authorization go away is for the DRM to spook so many people away from buying the big titles -- like Assassin's Creed, Splinter Cell, or Rainbow Six -- to force Ubisoft into dropping the DRM in hopes of boosting sales. Silent Hunter is far too small and inconsequential of an IP for them to care very much if just that game fails; as people say here, they'll just drop the series if it doesn't sell well enough.

[Ducimus]

Tater,

If your lurk on these forums enough (SH3 through SH5), you'll notice that people are VERY nitpicky over the smallest visually oriented items. Infact, its often at ridiculous lengths. The watchword here is "immersion", and immersion seems to be defined by what they can see visually, first and foremost. Technical details is only a secondary thought, if not an freaking afterthought.

I honestly think the devs were watching the community here, and made exactly what they were clamoring for. More RPG via "The Das boot experience" (everyone seems to want to live the movie), and more "immersion" as defined through visual graphics.

[tater]

You are probably correct. I tend to see the visual stuff the way I see everything related to SH—does it increase or decrease the quality of simulation?

What is immersive for me is to have the targets, sub, world, and enemies behave realistically (and look appropriate).

I remember seeing mod changelogs with stuff about the uniforms, etc, and chuckled 'cause I'd paid as much attention to my XO's hat as I do to any guy's shoes I meet in RL—which is none at all. My wife, OTOH, she'd notice stuff like that.

tater

PS—yes, I'm saying that anyone who notices uniform problems probably pays a lot of attention to men—not that there's anything wrong with that! ;)

[Onkel Neal]

Not so easy sunshine...each to their skills. I'll code the algorithms, or rather the core logic engine.....and i'll be bankrolling it too :O:.

I see you more as the nicely sculptured block of wood on the front of a ship. ;)

Now we just need someone for the graphics and sounds..:hmmm:

Yeah, I wish, man.

Although I think I would lose it the first time some jughead started nitpicking some extremely minor detail. Like the chart table was 2 cm too high.

[tater]

Nitpicking something like a chart table BEFORE the game is finished is a good thing, IMO.

Imagine if every interior was blogged on a forum. The modeler would never even have to look at google or his library. Some goon here would—in real time—slam the dev with images to use to get it right.

[frau kaleun]

I remember seeing mod changelogs with stuff about the uniforms, etc, and chuckled 'cause I'd paid as much attention to my XO's hat as I do to any guy's shoes I meet in RL...


Well naturally, who looks at the XO? The navigator's the hot one.

[mobucks]

i hope it gets some great mods so i can buy it when i get a job (if that ever happens)

DRM isnt really an issue for me, my internet is always up and i dont usually play games for an extended period.... ie, blow through game in a week and not play again for months.

software piracy is killing the PC game market that i know. just browsed Alien Vs Predator on TPB and over 12,000 people are trying to pirate that game.. what a shame.

at the end of the day you cant blame DRM only the pirates that make it necessary. You might "vote with your wallet" but that is a small loss compared to the masses that would just pirate the game by the tens of thousands.

[pythos]

I want SH5 to be the premier sub sim, the best sim EVAR!!!!. I want ubi to pull their heads out of their asses though when it comes to requiring a single player game to be online all the time. That is just dumb, and knocks many people out of the market, not due to their choice but do the choice of their government that decides to not run cable for internet use in specific areas.

I want SH5 to get upgraded, get add on boats, and add on years. I want it to kick Flight Simulator 2004's ass in the number of copies bought. (and I love flight sim dearly).

I want crap like DRM, Star Force, and other such nonesense to die a quick and painful death.

Oh and Tater, who asked for a subsim in the first place? Frankly I did want to have the whole boat to roam, the fact you can do nothing in the engine room is just you being negative. It is a start. They have got the frame work, now perhaps in later installments they will have some more functionality. For all you know with this current incarnation you may be able to talk to the Diesel mechanic to address issues with your boat's performance, ala, the scene between the capatain and Johan in Das Boot.

Please stop being such a buzzkill when it comes to what is most likely going to be a very ground breaking subsim.

I personally like eye candy especially when it comes to a simulator of something I shall never get to experience, if it is only a very small part of the experience.

[BarjackU977]

I'm not so sure that the DRM will be removed later. Can happen, but too risky for me to bet.

For SH3, if my memory serves me right, they took the game EXE modified by a pirate group and distributed it in the later, cheaper version. The DRM was completely local. Or maybe it was for SH4, I don't recal. Also, I've no idea if it's true as I didn't check myself when I had read that.

I'v read (didn't check personally either, I don't own that game) that for Bioshock, the DRM removal consisted in asking Securom activation servers to always reply "Allow". Meaning that there is no restriction anymore on the amount of activations, except that activation servers are required to be online and able to reply for that game. The DRM was actually not removed.

So, for those two cases I've heard about, the solution was "easy", no actual game code change.

I've read about the case of Rise of Flight here, and that one implied changes to the game code.
Similarly, removing OSP would require changes in the code of the game.
That's very possible to do, but that's not as simple as what was done for SH3 or Bioshock. Aslo, to make people happy, they would need to develop a way to download online savegames, so you can continue them locally, I imagine.
That kind of code change can happen while a game is still "supported" by its developers, meaning when they can still work on the game code. And changing the code, like always, has a cost.

Interesting reading on the subject of DRM removal:
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1680
This is actually on authorization servers, but arguments can easily be extended to several DRM schemes.

[JScones]

*Sigh* I can see your thought process. But it's not about loyalty. It's about the numbers, sales, the reality that low sales = RIP SH, and about the love for submarine games. Even if they are unfinished when released and depend on patches and modders to coax them to a higher level.

Man, if you guys have this loyalty thing rooted in your minds, go buy a toaster or something :O:
Neal, I didn't ask for "SH5: The Das Boot Experience". I didn't ask for an RPG crew management game.

SH5 marks a complete shift in direction of the SH series. Thus you cannot compare SH5 to any previous SH game, because the previous games were essentially the same concept, differing only in setting. They appealed to the same style of gamer. It is no secret that SH5 aims to appeal to a broader style of gamer.

With SH5, Ubisoft's and my idea of a good subsim appears to no longer be the same. And if SH5 is the future direction of the SH series, then I don't care if the series dies. I have no intention of bankrolling a product that doesn't meet my idea of a good subsim. If I want a crew management simulation, I just put on my suit and go to work. Much more "immersion" there and my "crew" are much more interactive (although I do wish I had the "thought bubbles" sometimes).

Now, you say it's not about loyalty, yet you continue to say that we should buy the game to support the series (implied by your continued "if people didn't support SH2 there'd have been no SH3" comparisons - a comment which I disagree with btw, unless you had a crystal ball, but that's a topic for a different time). But isn't that just demonstrating product loyalty? :hmmm: So, are you looking at toasters too? :O:

Don't get me wrong, in 6/12/24 months if I see modders returning the game to what my idea of a subsim is, I will buy it and gratefully thank the modders for their hard work and dedication.

In the meantime, however, maybe those that want to show loyalty to the series by buying SH5 regardless of what they think of it, just so that there can be an SH6 (and I'm not talking about buyers that genuinely want to buy SH5 because they like what they see), can buy two or three copies each. That should cover the rest of us. Everyone wins then. :up:

Randomizer covered the rest of my thinking so well, that I won't reiterate it.

[Seafireliv]

I'm not so sure that the DRM will be removed later. Can happen, but too risky for me to bet.

.


Only a foolish company takes such a risky step with this DRM without the option to remove it if need be. I`m pretty certain that UBI talked about this in the boardroom and have the emergency backup ready to scrap this particular DRM if sales are drastically affected.

[urfisch]

Yep. And if not enough customers buy what they are offering, they won't make it again.

One reason why SH5 is being aimed at the casual gamer is SH4 did not sell well enough. And how many here refused to buy SH4? Enough, obviously. Granted, SH4 was unfinished, but wait till you see SH6. It will be 100%
unfinished.

SH4 was going to fail...this was no surprise to many of us, right?

And it was not only due to bugs...the STRATEGY didnt fit the exspectations. Many players waited for SH3 v2.0 and NOT for a pacific theater. So the game sold badly. Clear to me. If they would have done it the other way round...SH4 with a better looking atlantic theater AND monsun boats...and AFTERWARDS release the u.s. subwar in pacific theater as an addon...this would have worked better!!! 100% sure.

So, please feel not that offended by the discussion here. It is obvious, that ubi mostly make decisions without customers - bad idea. So i dont understand anybody here, who defends ubi with their silent hunter series...uhhh, if ubi wouldnt do, nobody would.

:nope:

This is crap. The simulation genre is still very well alive and many still want to play such games. So there would have been another studio, creating an inofficial follower. And if not, the community would have done a GWX4, which might have been better, than SH5 at the actual state!!!

And if you place this kind of DRM on top... What to do, as a customer? Swallow the blue pill and go buying this half baked DRM game, only to get SH6??? lol. This cant be meant serious, Neal.


Short Term: FAIL
Long Term: Major Success.

The only reason this game will fail will be the DRM. It's ridiculous to go into a sale thinking that all your customers are CRIMINALS.

Piracy losses are sooo overblown. 99 percent of pirates will never buy the game, and if they ever do, it will be used off of ebay or some other source. Or, they will wait until it is marked down to $15 and buy it then.

But, while the DRM is attached, NO WAY WILL I TOUCH THIS MOTHER.

Nothing to add on this...beside: the DRM is the major reason. Unconsidered wishes from the community are another.

Nitpicking something like a chart table BEFORE the game is finished is a good thing, IMO.

Imagine if every interior was blogged on a forum. The modeler would never even have to look at google or his library. Some goon here would—in real time—slam the dev with images to use to get it right.

right...i praised this for month. also wrote it to officials from ubi...no reaction. suckers...

:88)

[Rockin Robbins]

I see you as the one to start a crap thread. :stare:
First of all, that's a personal attack. I see you as one who made one of those.

I also see you have not read any SH5 posts I have made regarding the DRM, which I provisionally endorsed, probably the only one who has gone that far in accepting that means of protecting Ubi's interests. But don't confuse the issue with the facts when there is a good attack to be made there. It is very entertaining.http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/smileys/winky.gif

My point is that what you are willing to pay for, you will receive more of. If you are willing to put out your cash for a bad game (fill in the blank here, I think we've all been burned at one time, not only by Ubi), the game company who made that game will adjust its marketing plan to substitute publicity and puffery for game quality. If the biggest proportion of buyers are those who pre-order, there is no incentive at all for a game company to produce a great game--their money is already made. To them only, the game is a raging success and their next game will be a repeat of the same customer ripoff. And why shouldn't they? We paid them to do it!

Two inviolable rules of economics, exemplified by Apple and Sony: what you pay for you will get more of, and people tend to do exactly what they are paid to do. In both companies' cases, people have been willing to pay exhorbitant prices for increasingly restrictive and intrusive DRM schemes. Now if you buy an Apple iPad (I'm holding out for the MaxiPad) you can't even choose what browser to run on the machine. Imagine paying a company good money to violate your rights! Imagine what future products will do when you do!

Economic actions have consequences. Ininformed, knee-jerk economic actions, like pre-ordering SH5 when it is flying danger flags all over, has unintended consequences that would lead Ubi to believe that they are moving in the right direction and putting even more resources toward a course that would give us more and more inferior products.

The argument that "this is the best we are likely to get" recalls the American automobile manufacturers of the 1970's, producing junk cars that rusted out in three years, had lousy styling, terrible drivability, abysmal fuel economy and no reliability. Yup, as long as we were willing to pay for it, they created more lousy cars. Didn't the Japanese and Europeans jump into the market and clean their clocks? Another law of economics is that producers love to exploit a vacuum. Any vacuum will be filled quickly by a better producer able to meet the needs of the consumer.

I say economic responsibility demands that we evaluate the product before we lay out the money. But I guess that's all crap. I'm just daft. Fire away.:up:

[martes86]

Probably not. The game does not need to phone home anymore. Perhaps the last patch would provide the MP capability. Maybe in a pay for addon with additional content. It worked for SH4. Lets do the math logically. The game gets released. There is the initial glut of purchases at $49.99 or whatever. This goes on for say 6 months. Meanwhile, there are patches made for a fix or a "thanks from UBI' boat added. Others are still making purchases at full price. Eventually the price drops to $19.99 and then $9.99. Does not take long. Does it make financial sense to run, have upkeep and staff this server for DRM? In the long run I would say no. It is diminishing returns on the sales of the games that overrides the cost to keep this server up and running. So really, at $9.99 for a game most will just buy it instead of pirating a copy I would think. What does UBI really get to keep this DRM going for years? I can't think of reason to do that. What is your thoughts? I could be way off base but that is how I see it.

Well, EA is currently shutting down online capabilities for games that are just one year old and beyond. If online support is dropped eventually, they'd sure have a DRM fix ready for us, to at least allow us for SP play, but I doubt they'd go through the trouble of programming a bypass for their MP servers, specially if the stock SH5 doesn't include LAN/IP/Ded. server/client creation capabilities, which could be bound to have bugs too which would require fixes if critical.

However, EA's server are much complex than what Ubi might have planned, because EA uses them not just for authentication, but for data transactions with the games, all the time. OSP/DRM might be as fast as a single server ping, and just having 1 machine for it would suffice and not get overloaded (at least, with SH5)... what would happen with the savegames issue is a different matter, probably independent from OSP, and that's probably what will be the most costly to mantain. But money is money of course, so I wouldn't exclude any possibility.

Cheers :rock:

[Seafireliv]

First of all, that's a personal attack. I see you as one who made one of those.

I also see you have not read any SH5 posts I have made regarding the DRM, which I provisionally endorsed, probably the only one who has gone that far in accepting that means of protecting Ubi's interests. But don't confuse the issue with the facts when there is a good attack to be made there. It is very entertaining.http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/smileys/winky.gif

My point is that what you are willing to pay for, you will receive more of. If you are willing to put out your cash for a bad game (fill in the blank here, I think we've all been burned at one time, not only by Ubi), the game company who made that game will adjust its marketing plan to substitute publicity and puffery for game quality. If the biggest proportion of buyers are those who pre-order, there is no incentive at all for a game company to produce a great game--their money is already made. To them only, the game is a raging success and their next game will be a repeat of the same customer ripoff. And why shouldn't they? We paid them to do it!

Two inviolable rules of economics, exemplified by Apple and Sony: what you pay for you will get more of, and people tend to do exactly what they are paid to do. In both companies' cases, people have been willing to pay exhorbitant prices for increasingly restrictive and intrusive DRM schemes. Now if you buy an Apple iPad (I'm holding out for the MaxiPad) you can't even choose what browser to run on the machine. Imagine paying a company good money to violate your rights! Imagine what future products will do when you do!

Economic actions have consequences. Ininformed, knee-jerk economic actions, like pre-ordering SH5 when it is flying danger flags all over, has unintended consequences that would lead Ubi to believe that they are moving in the right direction and putting even more resources toward a course that would give us more and more inferior products.

The argument that "this is the best we are likely to get" recalls the American automobile manufacturers of the 1970's, producing junk cars that rusted out in three years, had lousy styling, terrible drivability, abysmal fuel economy and no reliability. Yup, as long as we were willing to pay for it, they created more lousy cars. Didn't the Japanese and Europeans jump into the market and clean their clocks? Another law of economics is that producers love to exploit a vacuum. Any vacuum will be filled quickly by a better producer able to meet the needs of the consumer.

I say economic responsibility demands that we evaluate the product before we lay out the money. But I guess that's all crap. I'm just daft. Fire away.:up:


Intellectually well-said!:yeah:

[col_Kurtz]

I hope I don`t broke any law I think this is important.

http://www.yougamers.com/news/27311_assassins_creed_2_pc_drm_fail_-_ubisoft_doing_it_wrong/

[Joe Bob]

I am very new here and have been away from sub simulations for a long time but in reading the SH5 threads I have begun to think perhaps my perspective from a nearly outsider view might have some value so here goes my second post.

I am a hard core flight simmer. years ago I was also big into AoD. Those were the pre-internet days for me though. I purchased SH2 and it was not what I had hoped it would be.

I believe at the time I read that the developers were not happy with the linear nature of it but it was the best they could do within the restraints of the business. I tossed the disk and assumed that the market was not going to get any better for such a niche category game. I never even gave SH3 a look until this Xmas. Needless to say I was stunned that in this day of disposable adrenaline junkie games, one like this has been made. So few companies attempt so really simulate anything these days.

The current unpleasantness over SH5 reminds me very much of the flight sim community over MS Flight Simulator X. It is the result of people who are passionate about a simulation and that can be a good thing if you keep it in perspective.

I and the communities I frequent have spent thousands of dollars in add on payware and hardware for MSFS. Flight sim has been a pet project for some at MS for many years. It always made money. And yet the large company drops the franchise because in reality it is a small niche market that was not worth the bother. The Submarine simulation community is a much smaller market than that. Sometimes when you frequent a community dedicated to a sim you can forget that it does not represent the majority of a games market. Like it or not if the casual gamer does not buy the game then it does not get made. I am very glad that enough folks bought SH2 so that SH3 was made. I sure did not expect it.

I am not suggesting anyone should buy games for the good of the franchise. In fact I will vote with my dollars over the DRM issue. But as far as the actual sim goes, I feel comfortable in saying that developers who made a sim as detailed as SH3 has their heart in the right place and what ever SH5 is or isn't is going to be the best that can be done within the restraints of the business.

I hope the Subsim community can keep that in perspective when judging the passion (and target) you apply to our concerns. Someone will come along and make a new flightsim. I am not so sure about a new sub sim.


Anyway, pleas forgive the new guy butting in

I'm Joe Bob and thats the way I see it

[pythos]

Joe Bob,

Very well said.

I remember the flap with FS when virtual cockpits were coming out. "oh, it's just eye candy, why waste time with something so unimportant". These whiners were obviously NOT wanting a simulation of the real thing.

I was sad to hear MS dropping FS. That is just a perfect example of how crappy depending on consumerism is. Flight sim, is head and shoulders better than most aircraft sims out there short of a full motion simulator used by the big boys. It is the only mainstream simulator that can be autorized by the FAA as a training tool for actual pilots. I keep sharp with my instrument approaches using flight sim.

As I have said before on these forums, people seem to confuse games with simulators. First person shooters are highly un realistic. How so? Well I watch my friend play modern warfare, when his character gets so injured he can't do anything, my friend hits a button and his character blows himself up. Instead of being kicked out of the match which would be close to realistic, he instead gets a fresh new character and is back in the fight.

When your boat gets sunk, you have to restart from your last save, which is hardly realistic, but acceptable for continued game play.

I think the first trailer for sh5 worked on this point. "Oh no, this is no game.". It is'nt a game.

IT IS A SIMULATION of something thankfully none of us will experience in real life.

[Jimbuna]

Welcome aboard Joe Bob http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/welcome.gif

[FIREWALL]

Welcome Joe Bob Excellent 1st post :up:

Same to you Pythos on your response. :salute:

This is the kind of posts I like to read. :yep:

[scrapser]

A good point about the niche market we are in. I would like to add that because it is a niche market and the developers and publishers KNOW this (how could they not?)...it is all the more reason why they should be creating what we want and not what they want to sell us if they want the highest number of sales. If they choose not to, they are shooting blanks in a dark room and hitting nothing because what they produce will not appeal to the hardcore niche market and the casual gamer market will end up a mere roll of the dice.

Personally I think this is the driving force behind the reason SH5 is not a full simulation of the entire war with all submarines available. They are trying to change the nature of what a submarine simulation is to attract the "casual" gamer and expand the market at the expense of the hardcore fan base. In short, they are cutting corners to save expenses and maximize profits. Quality goes out the window yet again.

[onelifecrisis]

You are probably correct. I tend to see the visual stuff the way I see everything related to SH—does it increase or decrease the quality of simulation?

What is immersive for me is to have the targets, sub, world, and enemies behave realistically (and look appropriate).

I remember seeing mod changelogs with stuff about the uniforms, etc, and chuckled 'cause I'd paid as much attention to my XO's hat as I do to any guy's shoes I meet in RL—which is none at all. My wife, OTOH, she'd notice stuff like that.

tater

PS—yes, I'm saying that anyone who notices uniform problems probably pays a lot of attention to men—not that there's anything wrong with that! ;)

I hear ya. :lol: I remember the first time my GF saw me playing SH3. I went into the command room and she went "ooo, nice graphics". I was surprised. Normally she couldn't care less, and I've played better looking games that she didn't comment on. So I said "yeah, look" and panned the camera around (away from the CE) to show her the rest of the sub. She sighed and said "the graphics were better when you were facing in the other direction". That's when the penny dropped. :roll:

[Ducimus]

SH4 was going to fail...this was no surprise to many of us, right?

And it was not only due to bugs...the STRATEGY didnt fit the exspectations. Many players waited for SH3 v2.0 and NOT for a pacific theater. So the game sold badly. Clear to me. If they would have done it the other way round...SH4 with a better looking atlantic theater AND monsun boats...and AFTERWARDS release the u.s. subwar in pacific theater as an addon...this would have worked better!!! 100% sure.


Says you. I and other people fond of the PTO waited a little over 11 years for that buggy piece of crap. let me say that again....

OVER ELEVEN YEARS WAIT!

The real reason why it didn't do so well is because it was a rush job and was released with a ton of bugs, many of which are still unresolved. First impressions are everything, and when Ubi drew back the curtains to show a bucktooth freckled redhead with pigtails and pigeon toes instead of a hot blond with big firm breasts, that pretty much killed the game right there.

It was LONG over due for a PTO game. Infact, this series was STARTED by a PTO game.

[Ishigami]

Are you you rooting for failure for SH5?

Yes I do.
Actually I'm rooting for failure of UbiSoft and it just happened to be connected. :|\\

[Schultz]

As I said it before pesimism is contagious , let's be optimistic, did you know that pesimistic people die earlier ?(some researchers reached this conclusion)

[Sailor Steve]

I am very new here and have been away from sub simulations for a long time but in reading the SH5 threads I have begun to think perhaps my perspective from a nearly outsider view might have some value so here goes my second post.
WELCOME ABOARD!:sunny:

We have something in common.

I was also big into AoD. Those were the pre-internet days for me though. I purchased SH2 and it was not what I had hoped it would be.
:yep: Same here. The SH2 thing was what led me here in the first place.

Anyway, pleas forgive the new guy butting in...
At least you're polite about it. And more than welcome to do so anytime. It's how you get to not be the new guy.

[evan82]

As I said it before pesimism is contagious , let's be optimistic, did you know that pesimistic people die earlier ?(some researchers reached this conclusion)

Who is pessimist? Good informed old optimist.:)

[martes86]

The real reason why it didn't do so well is because it was a rush job and was released with a ton of bugs, many of which are still unresolved. First impressions are everything, and when Ubi drew back the curtains to show a bucktooth freckled redhead with pigtails and pigeon toes instead of a hot blond with big firm breasts, that pretty much killed the game right there.

True... it was quite the killer... a lot of people (including U-Boat people) would be playing it right now instead of SH3 if it had come out as a much much better product. Sure, mods have made a lot of cleaning eventually, but the damage has been done, specially since people started to call it "Bugs of the Pacific".

Cheers :rock:

[cappy70]

Welcome Joe Bob to port of a good (but stubborn:D) bunch of people/"simmers".....:salute:

The SH2 thing got me in here as well (2001 A.D.),,, the "Dynamic" being as linear as a walkthrough in the first DOOM, (although the mother of shooters and awesome)....and I even defended SH2,,phew I took a lot of belly shots for that, but I just loved the water graphics,,sooo much:arrgh!::D:arrgh!:

[ERPP8]

Remember, it's not the game you hate, it's DRM.:up::up: