People of Dreseden Defend their City Against Neo-Nazis

[Schroeder]

Nice to see that there are still some people with courage out there.:yeah:
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5245414,00.html?maca=en-tagesschau_englisch-335-rdf-mp

It is disgusting that those brown dogs try to turn the anniversary of the destruction of Dresden into a propaganda march for the very same powers that actually led to the war and all the death and destruction. But this time they failed utterly.:D

[Oberon]

It's Dresden, not Dreseden!

Ha! Smart-arsed you with your own country!! :O:

In other news, I can only agree with you Schroeder, it's fantastic that the people have come together to face up to the brownshirts and defeat them. I can only hope that this victory gives other movements strength in their battle against fascism.

[ReFaN]

Nice to see that there are still some people with courage out there.:yeah:
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5245414,00.html?maca=en-tagesschau_englisch-335-rdf-mp

It is disgusting that those brown dogs try to turn the anniversary of the destruction of Dresden into a propaganda march for the very same powers that actually led to the war and all the death and destruction. But this time they failed utterly.:D

muhah, Great work dresedsended !

[Letum]

If things get bad in Germany, there is quite a good legal case for Russia,
America, England and France declaring war on Germany because
NATO/Germany has violated the peace treaty (http://usa.usembassy.de/etexts/2plusfour8994e.htm) that formally ended the
second world war in 1990/1991. :arrgh!:

[Skybird]

I realised that there seem to have been two kinds of counter-Nazi protesters: the one coming by private initiative, being of medium and higher and high age, some living in Dresden, or having lived in Dresden and then moved away, witnesses of the war and the Dresdenn bombing night who came back for rememberance; and then another group being more or less organised autonomous, black-dressed young people, as well as people coming from left leaning organisation and initiatives, radical students, and unions.

The first group I applaud. The latter I would avoid.

[Schroeder]

It's Dresden, not Dreseden!

Ha! Smart-arsed you with your own country!! :O:

Stupid typos... OK, OK.... I corrected it.:O:

@Sykbird

Yep, the black block guys are just as bad as the Nazis but at least one group failed today and from what I hear the black block couldn't cause much trouble either, but let's wait for the morning for some final results.

[Skybird]

@Sykbird

It seems I got officially promoted to the rank of a Vulcan. :DL

[Oberon]

He's really not having a good day today is he? :hmmm: :har:

[Schroeder]

I guess I need a foolproof keyboard.:dead:

[Oberon]

A good artist does not blame his tools ;)

[Schroeder]

Shouldn't you be in bed already????:damn:

[Raptor1]

A good artist doesn't need regular sleep hours, pfft...

[Task Force]

just goes to show schroeder isnt a good artist...:O:

[Oberon]

just goes to show schroeder isnt a good artist...:O:

Who woke you up? :hmmm::03:

[krashkart]

A good artist doesn't need regular sleep hours, pfft...

Neither did Edison, he took (ir)regular catnaps. Pppffbfbbfbftt! Geniuses, and their... um, you know... genius. :O: :) Cool siggie Raptor1, BTW. Wish I had kept a pencil in hand after high school. :salute:

Back to basics. Reading the article now.

Sidenote: A region of the Western U.S. won a battle against Neo-Nazism/White Supremacy close to a decade ago (and even a decade earlier). Quite a victory for that particular state, IMHO. :DL I'll try to get some credible sources cited here if'n you are interested.

I guess I need a foolproof keyboard.:dead:

Sure sure, blame it on poor ol' technology. Technology is a key component in the foundation of civiliza.... *hrrrmph!* ... Darn lighter, why won't you light?!? :DL


EDIT - ADDITION:
"Police urged the neo-Nazis to cancel the march, saying they could not guarantee the safety of participants along the route. The procession was eventually called off late in the afternoon."

Where the heck was that kind of response out West? (close to the Pacific Northwest) :06:

Worked a bit differently here in the US, during the late nineties/early 2000's. What I saw out west, is that normally those kinds of marches are allowed to proceed as planned without police intervention. The police will respond to violence. Neither side took up arms against one another. A good thing.

We stay on this side of the barricades, they march and vent on the other side. Both are free to exchange birdie fingers and so on - no biggie. Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Protest. Those are some of the rules, we go along with that. We don't want our rights to be amended over a hate speech, right? You bet. :yep:

The Constitution cannot assuage what I feel in that kind of situation, it can only help to rein the emotions in. I do hope for a future here in the US where the police actually warn the haters of potential unmitigated physical harm, though. That might just be a good thing. :hmmm:

For the Schoolroom:

What is hatred? Please define it, and further refine your views.



Extra Credit:

Is hatred an enviable trait? If "Yes", please explain why? If "No", please explain further.















BTW, I don't know if I have a right to say "Right on, Dresden!!", but to heck with it... Right on, Dresden!! :salute:

[nikimcbee]

I guess I need a foolproof keyboard.:dead:

Stop using my keyboard.:D

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

"German neo-Nazis claim the carpet bombing of Dresden at the end of World War II was a war crime and have been holding rallies since the 1990s to protest what they call the "bombing Holocaust.", well lets see wasn't every other major German city carpet bombed by the Allies as well, what makes Dresden so different? When Dresden was bombed by both the RAF and USAAF one of the purposes of the raid was to kill as many enemy soilders as possible and give them no where to hide. Another was to lower the morale of the enemy to a point where they wouldn't fight. So in a way it was the Allies using the "terror bombing" tactics that the Luftwaffe used on London and the South Coast of England during the Battle of Britian but on a much larger scale. My question is how can someone consider a bombing raid a war crime? People die during war civilans more so than soliders who are shooting at each other and it can't really be provented, even today with all our "smart" weapons civilans still die.

[Skybird]

" My question is how can someone consider a bombing raid a war crime?

This claim by Nazis is provocation. They do not protest or demonstrate, they want to provoke. and like amongst the leftist autonomous scene, many come for the simple hope of getting a show - violence. That'S why police warned them.

Also, with this kind of history of hours, Nazi marches are not just like any politcal demonstration. This is no limitation of freedom of speech, but not giving an ideology that caused massive war crimes a platform again. The banning of the Nazi party failed some years ago, for formal reasons, not because it was unconstitutional in principle to ban them. In Germany, the state has the right and even the straight duty to protect itself against those putting the constitutional order into question. Towards the right spectrum, this is often tried and argued for. concerning the left spectrum also demanding nothing else but a constitutional overturn, publis resistance is much, much weaker. The problem gets talked down.burt in major cities like Berlin, the violence from autonomous and anarchic scenes and the radical left is a much more urgent problem, than crimes committed by the right. In Berlin, cars are burning almost every night.

This is what Nazis and other, left-orientated dumbheads do: provoking conflict with the state, often hpojng for violence, even organising riot-tourism.

Another Nazi problem is they additionally question the international border especially with Poland.

How far would freedom of speech go? Would it be okay to erect a Nazi regime again if only it comes to power by democratic means? I don't think so, due to German history, millions killed, and also due to Nazism violating essential basic human rights that also are anchored in the German Basic Law - a Above all: the dignity of man is untouchable, which is paragraph 1 in the German surrogate-constitution.

Even if they are "only" survivors" of the holocaust, and witnesses of the war - mockery of this their life experience should not be tolerated.

The name "Hitler", the right arms raised for the Hitlergruß and displaying of the swastika is also forbidden by law in Germany, for comparable reasons. Reference often is made to law paragraphs dealing with incitement of the masses.

[Tribesman]

This claim by Nazis is provocation. They do not protest or demonstrate, they want to provoke.
That reminds me of someone.
many come for the simple hope of getting a show - violence. That'S why police warned them.
Yep sounds very familiar.
This is nio imitation of freedom of speech, but not giving an ideology that caused massive war crime a platform again.
Could that be the clincher?
Or is this it......
Reference often is made to law paragraphs dealing with incitement

So this is a topic about Geert Wilders then:har:

OK that isn't fair, after all the party which were behind this march have a thing about immigrants, religions, "culture", global conspiracies, the EU dictatorship...not at all like Wilders.

[OneToughHerring]

Kptlt. Hellmut Neuerburg,

yes civilians often do die but the allied bombings did go overboard in many respects. It's interesting how such as big deal is made of the rapes committed by the Soviet troops but almost no historians talk about the bombings by the western allied which did result in a lot of dead civilians.

[Tribesman]

but almost no historians talk about the bombings by the western allied which did result in a lot of dead civilians.
What rock have you been hiding under?
Historians have been talking extensively about it since the 1940s.
The problem arises when they try and talk about it in the terms of war crimes as it wasn't one.
It's interesting how such as big deal is made of the rapes committed by the Soviet troops
Thats a war crime, a crime under military law and a crime under normal law...take your pick

[OneToughHerring]

Well when it comes to the mainstream historical looks into WW 2, I would say that the western historians have given the civilian sufferings a pretty wide berth. And I'm not saing that the Soviet rapes weren't a crime, they just seem to be noticed more in the western historians works then, say, the bombings by western allied.

And not just historians, also the overall media of the west seems to be ignoring the subject. I don't remember any movies or tv-series being made of the bombings.

[krashkart]

I see where "Dresden" fits in now. I'm not trolling, just observing where the tail of the snake went after observing the snout. Can we please bring this discussion back to the point? Bombing discussions belong under bombing discussions; this ain't the place.

*dons flak gear, taking on the persona of humon's Finland*

EDIT:

I would be glad to discuss the terror bombings of the fourties, just not in this thread.

[Schroeder]

" well lets see wasn't every other major German city carpet bombed by the Allies as well, what makes Dresden so different? When Dresden was bombed by both the RAF and USAAF one of the purposes of the raid was to kill as many enemy soilders as possible and give them no where to hide.

Strangely enough the few military targets that were in Dresden were not attacked at all.... :hmm2:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresden#Second_World_War

So it is doubtable that this attack aimed on soldiers.;)

But that still doesn't justify to march for the ideology that started the entire mess to begin with.
But let's leave it at that. It's 65 years ago and I just created this thread to celebrate that the Nazi's plans have been thwarted.

[krashkart]

I would like to apologize for being belligerent in my previous post. I felt that my own point of view was being ignored in favor of something else I do not agree with. Not my place to say "what" or "when". :nope:

This is why I lurk.

[HunterICX]

Well when it comes to the mainstream historical looks into WW 2, I would say that the western historians have given the civilian sufferings a pretty wide berth. And I'm not saing that the Soviet rapes weren't a crime, they just seem to be noticed more in the western historians works then, say, the bombings by western allied.

No, both the raping by the soviets and the city bombing by Bomber command are widely discussed and talk over in articles, novels and documentaries.

And not just historians, also the overall media of the west seems to be ignoring the subject. I don't remember any movies or tv-series being made of the bombings.

Nor do I remember one about the mass rapes done by the Soviets, but I expect footage of how a girl got raped, beated and murdered and having a bottle of vodka shuffed up her you-know-what would impress the people.

well there is a movie about Dresden but its a Romance about how a bailed out British pilot meets a German nurse during one of the bombing raids.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0461658/

both subjects the bomber raids of germans cities and the mass rapes by the soviets aren't media content for TV-series and Movies. Unless you can slam a romance in it like that Dresden movie, but I dont see romance to work with the subject Rape.

As said above, both subjects are widely presented and discussed in Documentaries, novels and articles.

HunterICX

[Schroeder]

I would like to apologize for being belligerent in my previous post. I felt that my own point of view was being ignored in favor of something else I do not agree with. Not my place to say "what" or "when". :nope:

This is why I lurk.
I didn't see any problem in your post. To me it was all still within the green.

[CaptainHaplo]

The history of Germany is what it is, and those who "clamor" for a return to power - aka the overthrow of the legitimate (though corrupt) government, do so at the violation of their countryman's rights - since such an overthrow would cast out a duly elected governmnt.

Dresden - among many other war locations of significance, are a reminder of the cost of such desires to place power in the hands of one unassailable group or person. When the neo-nazi's do this, those who know better stood up and said no - and I am quite proud of those that did so.

They at least have learned from their history, and choose not to see it repeated.

As for the ethical question of bombing population centers with the intent of breaking the will of the citizenry, recall that your looking back with hindsight, and that the moral and ethical question must be answered not by the standards we hold today - but by taking into account the historical situation in total at the time.

To try and judge those acts by our standards today, is to pretend that our society and technology is static. Which is a false premise, and thus dooms any judgement to be flawed.

[OneToughHerring]

No, both the raping by the soviets and the city bombing by Bomber command are widely discussed and talk over in articles, novels and documentaries.

Well Anthony Beevor has written extensively about the Soviet rapes and about Dresden...oh yea, David Irving. :roll:

I'll leave it up to you to decide which one is held in higher esteem in the 'popular history of World War 2' circles.

Nor do I remember one about the mass rapes done by the Soviets, but I expect footage of how a girl got raped, beated and murdered and having a bottle of vodka shuffed up her you-know-what would impress the people.

Many movies have shown those rapes, Die Blechtrommel for example.

well there is a movie about Dresden but its a Romance about how a bailed out British pilot meets a German nurse during one of the bombing raids.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0461658/

both subjects the bomber raids of germans cities and the mass rapes by the soviets aren't media content for TV-series and Movies. Unless you can slam a romance in it like that Dresden movie, but I dont see romance to work with the subject Rape.

As said above, both subjects are widely presented and discussed in Documentaries, novels and articles.

HunterICX

In your opinion. In my opinion, looking from here where I am, in 'the east', they aren't discussed much at all. The west is much more interested in the D-Day and the shinier aspects of the Pacific war theater.

[Skybird]

recall that your looking back with hindsight, and that the moral and ethical question must be answered not by the standards we hold today - but by taking into account the historical situation in total at the time.


:up:

the understanding and the standards of war are changing, and the more civilised they become, one can argue, the more inefficent the way to fight war becomes. I personally do not believe in the marriage of being civilised, and being successful in war. In war I only believe in determination.

I think of the current Afghanistan offebsive. NATO boasts with statements that they meet almost no resistence and that they advance accoding to plan. They also are proud to point out that they warned the people in the attack zones that they were about to come in force.

That maybe there is a link between these warnings and the weak opposition they meet, it seems they are not aware of. at best you get proud reports about enemy positions apparently having been left in a hurry. NATO claims that a successful tactcial surprise. I call it a prepared evasive manouver by the enemy who was able to do so because he was kindly warned of the upcoming attack, and who knows that in a direct confrontation, an open field battle, he most likely would be crushed. I am extremely sceptical about these reports of how successful the operation is going. I think the enemy had already evaded before NATO even went in, and has molten into the local population again for hiding, and evaded into the mountains.

So: was it an ethical thing to warn the local population when that also means to warn the enemy - and by that you render your own military effort as uneffective or harmless?

[CaptainHaplo]

OTH - now you know we rarely agree - but I will say this - your dead on when you say that modern "infotainment" about history tends to deal with the "shinier" parts of war (as if there really was such a thing).

It concentrates on the victories, on the demonization of the foe (whether the foe at the time, or a politicaly expedient current one) as well as glosses over the horror and true cost of a real war.

Now part of that is because there is no entertainment value in being brutally honest and depicting war in its totality. The other part of that is the current climate of "political correctness" which states that the deaths of civilians or other non-combatants (like WW2 merchant crews who, while not military, were crucial to the war prosecution on both sides), is an evil under all circumstances. While this is a noble position to take, the reality is that you cannot fight a true war and do so in a politically correct manner. Skybird states as much above, and in that he is right. The prosecution of war done correctly does not and cannot be "moderated", due to the capability of a non-symmetrical force to blend into the civilian population.

If your not fighting to win, you will lose.

However, and this is the biggest problem, its important to remember that it is not the military that STARTS wars - it is POLITICIANS. Unfortunately, Pindar was correct when he stated that "War is sweet to those who have no experience of it."

[Torplexed]

And not just historians, also the overall media of the west seems to be ignoring the subject. I don't remember any movies or tv-series being made of the bombings.

The Dresden bombing was the central theme to the Kurt Vonnegut novel Slaughterhouse Five and the 1972 movie of the same name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughterhouse-Five_%28film%29

[OneToughHerring]

The Dresden bombing was the central theme to the Kurt Vonnegut novel Slaughterhouse Five and the 1972 movie of the same name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughterhouse-Five_%28film%29

I was wondering if anyone was going to pick up on that. I've never seen the movie, it's pretty rare to get and it's pretty much never shown on tv over here. I tried to read the book and Vonnegut's style of putting all kinds of 'humour' etc. never really appealed to me. I was kind of hoping for a more matter of fact -type approach but, oh well.

[Oberon]

"History is written by the victors." :yep:

[Torplexed]

I was wondering if anyone was going to pick up on that. I've never seen the movie, it's pretty rare to get and it's pretty much never shown on tv over here. I tried to read the book and Vonnegut's style of putting all kinds of 'humour' etc. never really appealed to me. I was kind of hoping for a more matter of fact -type approach but, oh well.

The movie flopped, probably because it followed the same meandering approach Kurt Vonnegut did in the novel. I do remember one scene were Billy Pilgrim is convalescing in hospital and an arrogant patient in the bed next to him is boasting about writing a book about Dresden to downplay the "cry-babies" who claimed it as some sort of war-crime. This convinces Pilgrim to write about his actual experiences of having survived the tragedy. I also recall the scene where his war-time buddy is dragged off and shot as a looter for picking up an intact porcelain statue while helping clear the debris after the raid.

Of course, then there were the weird scenes on another planet. :doh:

Vonnegut is hard to follow even for native English language speakers.

[GoldenRivet]

Firstly:

good for Dresden - standing up for themselves like that

Secondly:

Bad for Dresden - stifling free speech

Personally, i think that as long as violence is not involved... "White supremacist satanic abortion doctors with ties to al quida in favor of Black Power" should have the right to form a march if they want to.

but maybe im just weird

[OneToughHerring]

Yes, I remember trying to read some other works by Vonnegutt and being similarly, well not dissappointed but kind of irritated. And I don't mean that I would prefer a "Sgt. Rock" - type approach to war literature, on the contrary. I've enjoyed reading very ponderous and meandering works that were about all kinds of subjects and not just about war.

I guess what I would like to read from Vonnegutt would be an autobiography that would focus on his time in the WW 2.

But anyway, I guess I have to concede that Slaughterhouse 5 book & film is infact a western work on the Dresden bombings although IMO not fully satisfactory and not really a "Saving Private Ryan" - type block buster.

[Schroeder]

. I also recall the scene where his war-time buddy is dragged off and shot as a looter for picking up an intact porcelain statue while helping clear the debris after the raid.

Of course, then there were the weird scenes on another planet. :doh:

Vonnegut is hard to follow even for native English language speakers.
I believe it was a tea pot (without a cozy as Balz was still wearing it at the time) and yes it was a bit difficult to read for us in the 12th grade.:doh:
Interesting book nonetheless.

@Golden Rivet

Free speech ends for me when it is abusing the death of at least 25.000 people to support a criminal regime that caused havoc all over Europe. Besides a lot of the Nazis (just like the counter demonstrators from the black block) were only there to "see action". There have been plenty of fights between the police and them outside of Dresden.
Would you allow Al Quaida to demonstrate in New York in the name of free speech?

[GoldenRivet]

Al Quaida to demonstrate in New York in the name of free speech?

Could it be done without the incitement of violence?

just as i said with the neo-nazis... * IF *it could be done without violence i say... "Why not?"

i dont agree with either message, but i agree with their rights.

what happens 20 years from now when it becomes illegal for Christians to gather publicly for fear it might incite violence?

food for thought.

[CaptainHaplo]

I will (and have) fought for the right of anyone to speak peaceably their views - even the idiotic ones. That is what free speech is.

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. - Voltaire

[Schroeder]

They wanted to promote a regime that doesn't grant free speech. So in a way they got what they wanted, didn't they?;)

[Ishmael]

Sidenote: A region of the Western U.S. won a battle against Neo-Nazism/White Supremacy close to a decade ago (and even a decade earlier). Quite a victory for that particular state, IMHO. :DL I'll try to get some credible sources cited here if'n you are interested.



EDIT - ADDITION:
"Police urged the neo-Nazis to cancel the march, saying they could not guarantee the safety of participants along the route. The procession was eventually called off late in the afternoon."

Where the heck was that kind of response out West? (close to the Pacific Northwest) :06:

Worked a bit differently here in the US, during the late nineties/early 2000's. What I saw out west, is that normally those kinds of marches are allowed to proceed as planned without police intervention. The police will respond to violence. Neither side took up arms against one another. A good thing.

We stay on this side of the barricades, they march and vent on the other side. Both are free to exchange birdie fingers and so on - no biggie. Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Protest. Those are some of the rules, we go along with that. We don't want our rights to be amended over a hate speech, right? You bet. :yep:

The Constitution cannot assuage what I feel in that kind of situation, it can only help to rein the emotions in. I do hope for a future here in the US where the police actually warn the haters of potential unmitigated physical harm, though. That might just be a good thing. :hmmm:

BTW, I don't know if I have a right to say "Right on, Dresden!!", but to heck with it... Right on, Dresden!! :salute:

I believe you refer to the event listed here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Front

Aryan Woodstock
Heick started to organize a concert of white power bands in a small town in Northern California (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_California). Heick was pushed aside by Tom Metzger, and the concert became a White Aryan Resistance event instead of an AF event. Heick and Metzger disagreed on almost every facet of the festival, including the name, Aryan Woodstock. Heick disagreed with Metzger's promotion of the event on his phone hotline, because the it was monitored by anti-racist activists, and would give them time to organize against the event. A WAR activist was told by three bureaucrats that no permit would be required to play live music at a private event on private land, as long as sanitation was provided for.
During the two weeks leading up to Aryan Woodstock, the event was a leading local news story. The county sought an injunction to block the gathering, and Heick appeared before a judge to defend AF and WAR's right to assemble. The judge ruled that the gathering may take place, but that there could be no music. Approximately 300 people from across the United States arrived on the property before the landowner caved to police pressure and allowed the authorities to close off the entrance. This stranded many would-be attendees, some who had traveled great distances to be there. Several hundred protesters were outside the property. Tension between AF and WAR increased soon after. Heick spent the next year visiting various AF units in California and across the United States before getting married and settling down in Portland Oregon.

It was about 15 miles from where I was living in Vallejo, CA at the time. I went to the counterdemonstration and here were some of my memories.

1. Hanging out with the Jewish Vietnam Vets.

2.The property the Aryan Woodstock was held on was abut 3 miles up Hwy 12 from the freeway on the road to Napa so people had to walk up the whole way. It was cold, damp and gray and the agricultural fields were all muddy. There was a police cordon of Solano and Napa County Sherrif's Deputies, California Highway Patrol, Cordelia, Vallejo and Napa Police officers along the entire route to the property.

3. There were two counterdemonstration contigents who came by bus caravan from San Francisco and Berkeley. Many locals came too including WW2 vets.

4.Most of the organized groups were various communist front groups including the John Brown Anti-Klan Committee who organized the counter demonstration. Even I had no idea there were so many DIFFERENT Communist Parties.

5. The SF group, the first to arrive about 3,000 strong, does their obligatory agiy-prop and Kabuki rushing of the barricades while a few skinheads watched from the top of the hill doing the Sieg Heil salute.

6. After they finish, they march down Hwy 12 to the parking lot just as another 3,000 from the Berkeley contingent come marching up. So who gets caught between 6-8,000 angry leftists?

7. Two Dumb-Ass Klansmen from Modesto in full white robes, including a Modesto Klan chapter patch, who didn't get the report of the entrance being closed. As they come around the turn and get spotted simultaneously by both mobs, two roars go up from the respective crowds as they swarm towards the hapless racists gathering muddy dirt clods as the rain of mud gets launched towards them. They immediately run directly towards,

8. The only BLACK Cop on the route, a Highway Patrolman who's linked arms with his fellow officers to keep the idiot crackers outside the police line. He waited until the crowd got within about 50 feet of the hapless racists and their white robes were turned a muddy brown, both inside and out, before finally relenting and letting them through to safety. So they had to go home to Modesto and admit that it was a Black Man who saved them from certain lynching. It was on the local news channels at the time.

So that was my experience.