Cylindrical Earth

[Frederf]

This thread is intended as a place to discuss the actual features of the game Silent Hunter 5 based what is visible in videos, screenshots or available from interviews and press materials. Since the digital rights management aspect, controversial as it may be, is not game feature it is not appropriate for discussion in this thread; there are many other threads for such talk.

One flaw of Silent Hunter 3 and Silent Hunter 4 is that the world and the map were one and the same. The map was flat and the world was flat. This made programming easy but had nasty real world consequences. Distances (and transit times) between real world places were shown to be much, much bigger in the flat world of Silent Hunter. The real routes taken by ships over the real Earth and straight lines on the map were different leaving historical sources and in-game needs at odds.

The ideal solution is to separate the mapspace from the worldspace so one can look at a flat map on the desk of a submarine but also travel through a world of real spherical shape. There are complications for the mapspace tools as long lines of shortest distance between points are actually curves when view through the distortion of the map projection, but this is well within the capability of programming.

In some interview or text, I heard that SHV is adopting a cylindrical world which is a far, far cry from a spherical world. It seems so foolish to go through all the effort of a change and not come close to a long term solution. Surely the very shape of the Earth is a good foundation for a simulation about submarines with ranges on the order of 10,000nm.

[elanaiba]

There's no change, its the same as in SH3/4.

[Kapitanleutnant]

welp

[martes86]

There's no change, its the same as in SH3/4.

I thought you guys were going to use a cylindrical projection for SH5. :06:

[Gunnodayak]

Crappy game, it will be the weakest of the series in most of the respects, except the graphics. And the eye candy graphics upgrade through the years took place in ALL video game applications, so that is not a "heroic" act for this so-called Silent Hunter 5, which has almost nothing to do with the concept of naval or sub simulation. As a conclusion, the series has took its course down, with SH5 at its lowest peak. Ubisoft and the romanian developers team should be really ashamed of themselves. But of course, they've got no shame, only the burning desire to fool the market and to make money profit. I hope they won't. At least, not from me.

[elanaiba]

I thought you guys were going to use a cylindrical projection for SH5. :06:

I know I'm tired and I'm missing something but we've always used a cylindrical projection. Sh3,4,5.

[Hartmann]

Crappy game, it will be the weakest of the series in most of the respects, except the graphics. And the eye candy graphics upgrade through the years took place in ALL video game applications, so that is not a "heroic" act for this so-called Silent Hunter 5, which has almost nothing to do with the concept of naval or sub simulation. As a conclusion, the series has took its course down, with SH5 at its lowest peak. Ubisoft and the romanian developers team should be really ashamed of themselves. But of course, they've got no shame, only the burning desire to fool the market and to make money profit. I hope they won't. At least, not from me.

Graphics is the only thing that some people need to say that it´s the best sim of the history, graphics and explosions , nothing more.

They targeted casual gamers and arcade fans, TDC , accurate chart plotting and late years complications are not necessary . I hope that ubi think about hardcore simmers too.

[martes86]

I know I'm tired and I'm missing something but we've always used a cylindrical projection. Sh3,4,5.

Really? I'll be damned, I've been thinking otherwise for a long time. :damn: Thanks for clearing the doubt. :rock:

[Kapitanleutnant]

I know I'm tired and I'm missing something

1944 and 1945. Hope this helps.

[Hitman]

I know I'm tired and I'm missing something but we've always used a cylindrical projection. Sh3,4,5. I think what confused many people is that in SH3 the map is cut and you can't do a full turn around the earth, while in SH4 you can scroll the map and get again to the point you started from.

I have no problems with a projection map, but it is a pity that the projection used is not adjusted to compensate the curveness of the earth. The are such 2D maps, called "Mercator projections (http://www.uwsp.edu/geo/projects/geoweb/participants/Dutch/FieldMethods/UTMSystem.htm)" and it would have been a nice thing to have :hmmm:

[guynoir]

I think what confused many people is that in SH3 the map is cut and you can't do a full turn around the earth, while in SH4 you can scroll the map and get again to the point you started from.

An unfortunate complication of that in SHIV was that the map cut was in the middle of the Pacific, and radio stations couldn't project past the cut, so you'd have to pump the station up to max volume in the config file so that it could project from, well, one end of the Earth to the other... :DL

[martes86]

Crappy game, it will be the weakest of the series in most of the respects, except the graphics. And the eye candy graphics upgrade through the years took place in ALL video game applications, so that is not a "heroic" act for this so-called Silent Hunter 5, which has almost nothing to do with the concept of naval or sub simulation. As a conclusion, the series has took its course down, with SH5 at its lowest peak. Ubisoft and the romanian developers team should be really ashamed of themselves. But of course, they've got no shame, only the burning desire to fool the market and to make money profit. I hope they won't. At least, not from me.

You haven't tested it yet, and you claim it's crap already? Way to go, dumb and thoughtless subjectivity. :shifty:

[SteamWake]

Really? I'll be damned, I've been thinking otherwise for a long time. :damn: Thanks for clearing the doubt. :rock:

Supprises me as well but as with any projection of a sphere onto a flat surface there is some distortion.

[ryanglavin]

You haven't tested it yet, and you claim it's crap already? Way to go, dumb and thoughtless subjectivity. :shifty:

DRM has infected us all, expressially when none of us have played it.

[martes86]

Supprises me as well but as with any projection of a sphere onto a flat surface there is some distortion.

Of course, of course, I never said that it was a perfect system (in fact, Hitman's link says that it's the less useful system for practical uses, with special focus on the polar distortion). But all along I thought that we got plane projection in SH3 and 4, and that SH5 was getting an all new system, but it seems I was terribly mistaken.

Cheers :rock:

[Gunnodayak]

You haven't tested it yet, and you claim it's crap already? Way to go, dumb and thoughtless subjectivity. :shifty:
Maybe something related to you is "dumb" or "thoughtless", and you may not even know it. I can guess that you can apply for the position of a lawyer in Ubisoft company, you are showing a lot of potential! They probably need at least one ... As far as I am concerned, here's my position:
What you're saying it's something like I am showing you a picture of rotten food, and you are saying to me: "OK, but maybe it tastes good, how do you know without tasting it?"
It's more than obvious that it's a crappy game, considering just a few facts, the first ones that are coming to my mind (and for all of them I have clear and without doubt evidences):

- the arcade style graphics on periscope view;
- the lack of shadows of human characters;
- the mandatory connection to the Internet;
- the lack of real life physics, movement and the effect of the wind upon objects or water;
- the level water agitation in ports and pens;
- the flat surface of the Earth;
- the lack of a full war campaign;
- the lack of all playable german subs;

Ant the last two of them are probably just a part of a scheme, a "reason" for a potential add-on's or expansions, which means (of course!) more money for them.

[Captain von Keldunk]

As I have not seen any info of a manual TDC, I wonder if it is possiple
to port SH4 german TDC to SH5, and make it even beter than SH4 one:hmmm:..
Make it more interactive with crew. You use periscope, give orders to crew and they carry them out.:D

[martes86]

Maybe something related to you is "dumb" or "thoughtless", and you may not even know it. Maybe you should apply for the position of a lawyer in Ubisoft company, you are showing show a lot of potential! They probably need at least one ...

Give me a break! Now you're taking me for an Ubi/DRM-defender??? I dislike DRM, and have voiced my opinion against it in this forum in several ocasions, not to mention the fact that most of the people I've talked to also hate it and I happen to agree with the arguments they present. But that doesn't mean I support radical destructive desinformed critics, we have a brain for something, not just for insulting without hard evidences of anything.


As far as I am concerned, here's my position:
What you're saying it's something like I am showing you a picture of rotten food, and you are saying to me: "OK, but maybe it tastes good, how do you know without tasting it?"
It's more than obvious that it's a crappy game, considering just a few facts, the first ones that are coming to my mind (and for all of them I have clear and without doubt evidences):

You can't compare a computer program with rotten food! A computer program is much more complicated, has more areas that make it "rotten" or not. You're judging just based on a few screencaps and 2 or 3 videos, which don't amount to the complexity such things have.

- the arcade style graphics on periscope view;
- the lack of shadows of human characters;
- the mandatory connection to the Internet;
- the lack of real time physics, movement and the effect of the wind upon objects or water;
- the level water agitation in ports and pens;
- the flat surface of the Earth;
- the lack of a full war campaign;
- the lack of all playable german subs;

1. GUI judging is not a reason. I've said many times now that you can't judge a whole product based on the GUI, which BTW, will be moddable via Python scripts anyways.
2. That remains to be seen in final versions of SH5. All we've seen are preview pics. Lastest build might include those details. Maybe it was excluded on purpose, what do we know?
3. That is a separate aspect from the game itself. There's SH5, and then there's DRM. DRM is crap. But we don't know that SH5 is really crap.
4. Source to prove it? Otherwise, you don't know that for a fact, and are just speculating.
5. Minor detail that doesn't make the overall a crappy thing.
6. Internal programming issue, which I totally understand because of its complexity.
7. Secondary detail for me, and will probably be extendable anyways, just like we could edit the campaign layers in SH3/4.
8. At first, something that I thought was not so good, now I think that it isn't so much of a problem anyways, specially if, like 7, it can be modded.


Ant the last two of them are probably just a part of a scheme, a "reason" for a potential add-on's or expansions, which means (of course!) more money for them.

An expansion of the years 44 and 45 when they've clearly stated that the U-Boot war was already over and lost at mid-43? Doesn't make much sense.
It does make sense to release addons with new boats though, but it's too early to talk about that.

So... got better arguments? Or you're just gonna tell me that I'm an Ubi defender? :shifty:

[Kapitanleutnant]

An expansion of the years 44 and 45 when they've clearly stated that the U-Boot war was already over and lost at mid-43? Doesn't make much sense.


Shut up. Just shut up.

[Sailor Steve]

Shut up. Just shut up.
Umm, why?

[Chad]

Shut up. Just shut up.

You had me at hello.. Jerry McQuire quote..

Elainaba, or Dan, is a developer who sticks his input and informs us what shape the world will be and you guys attack him, not cool. This isn't about DRM or Ubisoft, so why flip and turn it on him?

I don't care if you or anyone else will buy it, I will, because Dan's my friend. And maybe if he comes to the next subsim meet, I'll have him sign my copy.

When I first met him in the 2008 meet, I told him that he was like a celebrity, that just saying he was a game developer we should be asking for his autograph and getting our picture taken with him. I still feel this way, as he has put MANY hours into the Silent Hunter series. 3, 4 (and add-ons), and now 5, he's kept the series alive, and I have full faith that if you like 3 or 4, SH5 will be right there with it.

Martes and I were also there at the meet this year, where we saw real game footage being played by the developers. We saw and heard things that little 5 minute clips, or screenshots can't do. Dan also explained the modability of things such as the GUI using Python scripts.

Dan is also human, as all the other developers are. Treat them with respect. This is my first and last post concerning this, as it should be common sense.

[Schunken]

Argh....flamewars....

..what place this forum become?

Where is the respect gone that I always like at subsim?

maybe this place becomes rotten....:down:


Andreas

[guynoir]

An expansion of the years 44 and 45 when they've clearly stated that the U-Boot war was already over and lost at mid-43? Doesn't make much sense.
It does make sense to release addons with new boats though, but it's too early to talk about that.

I think what they've said is that the Atlantic Theater vastly changed past '43 with new tactics, ship types, ASW advancements, etc, and they didn't feel like they could do proper justice to the later years with the development time they have--that if they let the campaign go on to '45, it'd still just be the early years but with '1945' tacked to the calendar.

In that sense, I'd rather it end in '43 than paint an inaccurate picture of the end of the war... even if it means I'd have to buy an expansion to see the next two and a half years done accurately.

(of course, I'm still not buying anything until Ubisoft strips their DRM. :))

[Gunnodayak]

Give me a break! Now you're taking me for an Ubi/DRM-defender??? I dislike DRM, and have voiced my opinion against it in this forum in several ocasions, not to mention the fact that most of the people I've talked to also hate it and I happen to agree with the arguments they present. But that doesn't mean I support radical destructive desinformed critics, we have a brain for something, not just for insulting without hard evidences of anything.




You can't compare a computer program with rotten food! A computer program is much more complicated, has more areas that make it "rotten" or not. You're judging just based on a few screencaps and 2 or 3 videos, which don't amount to the complexity such things have.



1. GUI judging is not a reason. I've said many times now that you can't judge a whole product based on the GUI, which BTW, will be moddable via Python scripts anyways.
2. That remains to be seen in final versions of SH5. All we've seen are preview pics. Lastest build might include those details. Maybe it was excluded on purpose, what do we know?
3. That is a separate aspect from the game itself. There's SH5, and then there's DRM. DRM is crap. But we don't know that SH5 is really crap.
4. Source to prove it? Otherwise, you don't know that for a fact, and are just speculating.
5. Minor detail that doesn't make the overall a crappy thing.
6. Internal programming issue, which I totally understand because of its complexity.
7. Secondary detail for me, and will probably be extendable anyways, just like we could edit the campaign layers in SH3/4.
8. At first, something that I thought was not so good, now I think that it isn't so much of a problem anyways, specially if, like 7, it can be modded.




An expansion of the years 44 and 45 when they've clearly stated that the U-Boot war was already over and lost at mid-43? Doesn't make much sense.
It does make sense to release addons with new boats though, but it's too early to talk about that.

So... got better arguments? Or you're just gonna tell me that I'm an Ubi defender? :shifty:
Of course I do have arguments:
1. We are not talking about the potential moddable interface or game, we are talking about the actual game that they will sell on the market. Not about "what can be", but about "what is".
2. I don't see any purpose to post pictures of buggy aspects of the game, just in case you are masochist.
3. We're talking about the game as a whole, we cannot separate on one side DRM, and the other, the game itself, because the first one will obviously affect the playability of the game itself.
4. OK, in this area is just a hunch, and we will probably have the chance to see that my speculation was right.
5. The whole pictures is made of lot of details, those kind of details you are not affected by them, but I am. And I am sure not only me.
6. A Google Earth - like system would have been great and I am sure it was not impossible to be implemented.
7. And what if the war was already lost from '43 till '54? That way, playing just while the war is not lost yest will change the course of history? It will not, of course.
8. Don't put the emphasis on "what if" and "it can be corrected" or "it can be modded", because the customers are paying for the stock game that they are buying, not for the modded or corrected game.
And yes, I will tell you that you are a Ubi defender, and you shouldn't be ashamed of that, we all are making choices in life. You should just accept and admit your choice. I can respect your choice.

[Rip]

You had me at hello.. Jerry McQuire quote..

Elainaba, or Dan, is a developer who sticks his input and informs us what shape the world will be and you guys attack him, not cool. This isn't about DRM or Ubisoft, so why flip and turn it on him?

I don't care if you or anyone else will buy it, I will, because Dan's my friend. And maybe if he comes to the next subsim meet, I'll have him sign my copy.

When I first met him in the 2008 meet, I told him that he was like a celebrity, that just saying he was a game developer we should be asking for his autograph and getting our picture taken with him. I still feel this way, as he has put MANY hours into the Silent Hunter series. 3, 4 (and add-ons), and now 5, he's kept the series alive, and I have full faith that if you like 3 or 4, SH5 will be right there with it.

Martes and I were also there at the meet this year, where we saw real game footage being played by the developers. We saw and heard things that little 5 minute clips, or screenshots can't do. Dan also explained the modability of things such as the GUI using Python scripts.

Dan is also human, as all the other developers are. Treat them with respect. This is my first and last post concerning this, as it should be common sense.


+1000

We are VERY lucky to have developers that give a **** about their product. Have a little empathy for the situation and show them the respect they so greatly deserve!

[Gunnodayak]

You had me at hello.. Jerry McQuire quote..

Elainaba, or Dan, is a developer who sticks his input and informs us what shape the world will be and you guys attack him, not cool. This isn't about DRM or Ubisoft, so why flip and turn it on him?

Dan is also human, as all the other developers are. Treat them with respect. This is my first and last post concerning this, as it should be common sense.

Please don't tell me about Dan or others, they are making me feel somehow ashamed that I am romanian ... I've had higher expectations from romanian programmers, because I know that they are supposed to be some of the best in the world.

[Chad]

+1000

We are VERY lucky to have developers that give a **** about their product. Have a little empathy for the situation and show them the respect they so greatly deserve!

Heh, wish you were my ethics teacher, that 1000 points would come in handy.

I know that they are supposed to be some of the best in the world.

I believe they are the best in the world :DL

I love those guys :yeah:

[Rip]

Please don't tell me about Dan or others, they are making me feel somehow ashamed that I am romanian ... I've had higher expectations from romanian programmers, because I know that they are supposed to be some of the best in the world.


Higher expectations of what? You have the game? Otherwise you don't know crap just like the rest of us. It is poor taste to criticize something you know almost nothing about. Why not wait a month or two and try this stance with some facts, and I will have played the game by them and will I suspect be prepared to tell you you don't know crapola!

[elanaiba]

Please don't tell me about Dan or others, they are making me feel somehow ashamed that I am romanian ... I've had higher expectations from romanian programmers, because I know that they are supposed to be some of the best in the world.

Ok, I'll bite this.

How about YOU make ME feel proud I'm a romanian?

[Chad]

Or, if he meant the developers, name anyone in the Game Industry who would fly out to the US for a meet with some of us Subsimmers for a week.

Or fly out to Copenhagen, spend a day travelling to Germany to visit U-995, stuck in a bright green van stuck with 9 of us subsimmers again, asking, bickering, and overheating questions about the game.

I'm sure you can find pictures of that van somewhere, and I'm surprised we all fit :har:

[Gunnodayak]

Higher expectations of what? You have the game? Otherwise you don't know crap just like the rest of us. It is poor taste to criticize something you know almost nothing about. Why not wait a month or two and try this stance with some facts, and I will have played the game by them and will I suspect be prepared to tell you you don't know crapola!


Well, Ubi and also the developers should feel proud to have such an impressive army of defenders ... while they cannot defend themselves. They are somehow demigods that can't come down to Earth and speak to the mortals. I suppose you are playing SH3 or 4 on the "easy" level, am I right? And you are very happy about it.

[Gunnodayak]

Ok, I'll bite this.

How about YOU make ME feel proud I'm a romanian?


I am not supposed to make anyone proud to be romanian, I am not a demigod like you think you are. And don't forget that I AM PAYING YOU, by buying your crap, not the opposite. From my money and from other's you are earning your daily bread. So, please try to show some respect for the hand that feeds you.

[Dowly]

Ok, I'll bite this.

How about YOU make ME feel proud I'm a romanian?

Ok, you can be proud to be a romanian, because I took the time to learn your language (and as stated before, Finland will rule the whole world in the future, so it's kinda big thing, you know. :yep:).

Salut! Unde este toaleta?? :hmmm:

[Onkel Neal]

I am not supposed to make anyone proud to be romanian, I am not a demigod like you think you are. And don't forget that I AM PAYING YOU, by buying your crap, not the opposite. From my money and from other's you are earning your daily bread. So, please try to show some respect for the hand that feeds you.

You know, that's just rude. I really doubt you would say this in person. Move over, General, new guy in the brig.

[Webster]

Well, Ubi and also the developers should feel proud to have such an impressive army of defenders ... while they cannot defend themselves. They are somehow demigods that can't come down to Earth and speak to the mortals. I suppose you are playing SH3 or 4 on the "easy" level, am I right? And you are very happy about it.


as a UBI dev, when you can lose your job for saying the wrong thing or even speaking about an "off limits" subject that you and i dont see as a big deal then no they cant always defend themselves. sometimes defending themselves can cost them their job.

dan is a long standing well respected member here at subsim and he WILL be treated with the respect he deserves and not because he is a dev but because just like sailor steve or jimbuna or any other long time member they have earned the respect they are afforded and someone who comes in as a new member is not in any position to start dissrespecting them.

[elanaiba]

I am not supposed to make anyone proud to be romanian, I am not a demigod like you think you are. And don't forget that I AM PAYING YOU, by buying your crap, not the opposite. From my money and from other's you are earning your daily bread. So, please try to show some respect for the hand that feeds you.


1) I am not in any way superior to anyone here and never pretended such. I may not be allowed to speak on certain matters or post whatever I want, and I'd say that goes against being all powerfull as the demigod accusation may imply.

2) I respect very much the community here, and frankly, its for them that I work. Like any man, I may fail in some of my endeavors.

[paul_kingtiger]

A global game world is not an easy thing to create and plotting a great circle on a Mercator projection (while easy enough for a Navigator) requires some training to do. I can see why they have chosen not to.

It does screw up distances though at high latitudes which is a problem for a Uboat sim. But to do it, we'd need it to be automatic (some programming work here) or/and a more extensive set of navigation tools.

[Onkel Neal]

Shut up. Just shut up.

Well, Ubi and also the developers should feel proud to have such an impressive army of defenders ... while they cannot defend themselves. They are somehow demigods that can't come down to Earth and speak to the mortals. I suppose you are playing SH3 or 4 on the "easy" level, am I right? And you are very happy about it.




Elainaba, or Dan, is a developer who sticks his input and informs us what shape the world will be and you guys attack him, not cool. This isn't about DRM or Ubisoft, so why flip and turn it on him?

I don't care if you or anyone else will buy it, I will, because Dan's my friend. And maybe if he comes to the next subsim meet, I'll have him sign my copy.

When I first met him in the 2008 meet, I told him that he was like a celebrity, that just saying he was a game developer we should be asking for his autograph and getting our picture taken with him. I still feel this way, as he has put MANY hours into the Silent Hunter series. 3, 4 (and add-ons), and now 5, he's kept the series alive, and I have full faith that if you like 3 or 4, SH5 will be right there with it.

Martes and I were also there at the meet this year, where we saw real game footage being played by the developers. We saw and heard things that little 5 minute clips, or screenshots can't do. Dan also explained the modability of things such as the GUI using Python scripts.

Dan is also human, as all the other developers are. Treat them with respect. This is my first and last post concerning this, as it should be common sense.


That's right. And one more thing, there are 30-100 new members here a day, they do not need to see this kind of immature, infantile, typical Internet usegroup behavior. This is the Subsim forum, and if you cannot discuss things in a more pleasant manner, you need to leave, and I'm willing to help. We won't miss you.

Neal
SUBSIM Admin

[Diopos]

If we are back on the map issue I'd like to post this:

Mercator ? Cylindrical projection? are you sure you're not talking about variants of the same thing?

The problem is not using a mercator map to "visualize" positions. The problem is to assume that actual distances are reproduced on mercator or similar projection. Do a test. Measure the distance between two meridians on the equator (on the game map). Measure the distance between the same meridians near the north pole. The game tool will give you the same distance while in reality as we approach the poles the distance must be shorter (and going to zero on the poles themselves). The map scale (for distance measurments) should not be the same for all latitudes.
BTW compass courses, bearings are accurate in mercator type projections.

P.S. the game map actually looks like a Miller cylindrical projection which is a modified mercator projection (link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_cylindrical_projection))

If we're to cotninue bashing each other then my apologies for being OFF TOPIC......

[609_Avatar]

Dan is also human, as all the other developers are. Treat them with respect. This is my first and last post concerning this, as it should be common sense.

:up: As you say, should be common sense but as I have aged through the years I've come to realize that it is something of a rare commodity in this day and age... :nope:

[Chad]

As a indie-programmer, when I created a world, I could make it spherical, but to add water and other such effects, it had to be flatted, like Millers cylindrical projection, as the water code I was using called for a plane that used a bit of trigonometry to simulate the waves. I have no idea how to curl it back up into a sphere or anything like how earth really is.

[Rip]

Or, if he meant the developers, name anyone in the Game Industry who would fly out to the US for a meet with some of us Subsimmers for a week.

Or fly out to Copenhagen, spend a day travelling to Germany to visit U-995, stuck in a bright green van stuck with 9 of us subsimmers again, asking, bickering, and overheating questions about the game.

I'm sure you can find pictures of that van somewhere, and I'm surprised we all fit :har:

I'm not. I am just glad Neal didn't yell Crash Dive, and make us all dive into the front seat.
:D

[Magua]

Neal Stevens, that was the rudest thing possible, to ban somebody just because it had different opinion than yours. Shame on you, it seems that you were growing old in vain! Come on, erase this message and ban me again. That's ALL you can do, to put your fist in my mouth.

[Rip]

Well, Ubi and also the developers should feel proud to have such an impressive army of defenders ... while they cannot defend themselves. They are somehow demigods that can't come down to Earth and speak to the mortals. I suppose you are playing SH3 or 4 on the "easy" level, am I right? And you are very happy about it.


I'd be happy to compare submarine skillz any day, just let me know when to pick you up at the airport.


Ohh, and pack your lunch.

[Rip]

1) I am not in any way superior to anyone here and never pretended such. I may not be allowed to speak on certain matters or post whatever I want, and I'd say that goes against being all powerfull as the demigod accusation may imply.

2) I respect very much the community here, and frankly, its for them that I work. Like any man, I may fail in some of my endeavors.

Please don't forget a VAST majority of us are very thankful for that. Not to mention a number of us are even more thankful to know you as a friend.

Don't worry about your baffles. There are a bunch of us back here sweeping them.

[Onkel Neal]

Neal Stevens, that was the rudest thing possible, to ban somebody just because it had different opinion than yours. Shame on you, it seems that you were growing old in vain! Come on, erase this message and ban me again. That's ALL you can do, to put your fist in my mouth.


Well, that's a good place for it.

Your ban had nothing to do with my opinion, I didn't state an opinion. But if you want to carry on like a jackass, do it somewhere else.

[Rip]

Neal Stevens, that was the rudest thing possible, to ban somebody just because it had different opinion than yours. Shame on you, it seems that you were growing old in vain! Come on, erase this message and ban me again. That's ALL you can do, to put your fist in my mouth.

Isn't recess over yet? Get back to class before someone calls your mommy!

[Webster]

Neal Stevens, that was the rudest thing possible, to ban somebody just because it had different opinion than yours. Shame on you, it seems that you were growing old in vain! Come on, erase this message and ban me again. That's ALL you can do, to put your fist in my mouth.

are you kidding me?

reality check here, nobody has ever been allowed to act like an azz here without being penalized for it.

subsim is one of the few places where adults have adult conversations without childish morons resorting to personal attacks and flame fests.

we allow members here great freedom to express their views "within reason" and in a respectfull manner.

no one can read that mans post and think he did not deserve the infraction he recieved so you must have some other reason for your comments.

if you just want to insult or tell neal how he should run his own website why dont you send him a PM so the rest of the forum doesnt have to be involved in it?

or better yet if you really dont like the way this place is run then i invite you to go to another forum more suited to your taste.

[SteamWake]

Neal Stevens, that was the rudest thing possible, to ban somebody just because it had different opinion than yours. Shame on you, it seems that you were growing old in vain! Come on, erase this message and ban me again. That's ALL you can do, to put your fist in my mouth.

Way to start with your first post.

It is usually a good idea to know the full story before you go spouting off righteouness.

[HunterICX]

Way to start with your first post.

It is usually a good idea to know the full story before you go spouting off righteouness.

Hint: It was a new account of the banned person in question.

HunterICX

[Webster]

oh well, maybe he had time to read what we said about him and his opinions

[Onkel Neal]

And, it says very clearly:

Sticky: Note: Read before posting (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=155270)
Takeda Shingen


Now, let's clear out and let the discussion return to the original topic, please.

[Nisgeis]

I'm looking forward to the RPG elements - that really looks like it's going add a lot of immersion and let me train my crew in a specific way. E.G if I want to be an aggressive captain I can train my crew for surface action etcetera. :woot::yeah:

[Diopos]

...

Now, let's clear out and let the discussion return to the original topic, please.

We tried but -------->.:gulp:

[Nisgeis]

One thing I forgot to say... I don't mind the periscope screen 'arcadey-ness' as long as it shows the right information in the right way. What I do think will be quite annoying is that strange icon of the crewman floating over the periscope view. I hope you can drag that aside.

[Dowly]

You also forgot that this thread is about the map. :haha:

[Nisgeis]

You also forgot that this thread is about the map. :haha:

Nope. From the first post:

This thread is intended as a place to discuss the actual features of the game Silent Hunter 5 based what is visible in videos, screenshots or available from interviews and press materials. Since the digital rights management aspect, controversial as it may be, is not game feature it is not appropriate for discussion in this thread; there are many other threads for such talk.The OP then went on to talk about one thing he had seen, which was the map. The thread title is a bit misleading though.

[Dowly]

Stupid misleading titles.. first the titstorm now this.. :nope:

[karamazovnew]

I know I'm tired and I'm missing something but we've always used a cylindrical projection. Sh3,4,5.

We know that (painfully) and you've always stated that the maps in SH5 will be cylindrical. However a few eyebrows were raised when the crew special abilities were shown on SH5 official site. The navigator was stated to be able to plot the shortest path between too points "if only the player was trusted him" :)) We immediately began wondering if the game would actually use a spherical Earth with a cylindrical projection Map Screen instead of just a cylindrical Earth AND cylindrical Map.

There are quite a lot of us here on the forum that only need a blank paper with the proper tools and maps and a decent modeled sextant to figure out where we are and where we need to go. A real navigation feature with currents and tides and a bit of anchorage maneuvers would be a HUGE selling point for the game, as no ship simulator for PC offers the possibility to roam the entire world. One exception might be Ship Simulator Professional, but judging from the poor quality of the gamey version, I'd rather keep my money :haha:

A lot of effort has been put into trying to develop a real navigation mod for SH3 and SH4. Actual Kriegsmarine maps are available so yeah, it's a shame we'll have to miss that in SH5 AGAIN. But for me it will be a make-or-break features of SH6 :yeah:

[Diopos]

Earth curvature is a "must" if you want to talk about a "simulation" in the literal sense of the world. In the commercial-game-subsim sense of the word it is interesting to include because:
a. it is linked to fuel limitations (so you want to go from A to B via the shortest route) and
b. your targets (convoys) are moving in "shortest-route" type of lanes

Shiping lanes across an ocean would almost cetainly be plotted as curves on mercator type maps (even "S" shaped ones).
Manual targeting is considered the epitomy of sub-siming (which is really great of course), while getting in a good firing position and shadowing are considered "handy" skils also. Why not include good ocean-going navigation in the list too.:hmmm:

[Blood_splat]

Real navigation would be neat, because you would get some form of job satisfaction out of it. :up:

Oh by the way group hug.
http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/grouphugg.gif

[Frederf]

Nope. From the first post:

The OP then went on to talk about one thing he had seen, which was the map. The thread title is a bit misleading though.

Ahem, I intended for this thread to spend a little time on each subject merely titled in a cozy way about the first topic, but since this thread has been utterly dilluted with worthless crap, it's probably best to make a new one for at least the next topic.

I think what confused many people is that in SH3 the map is cut and you can't do a full turn around the earth, while in SH4 you can scroll the map and get again to the point you started from.

I have no problems with a projection map, but it is a pity that the projection used is not adjusted to compensate the curviture of the earth. The are such 2D maps, called "Mercator projections (http://www.uwsp.edu/geo/projects/geoweb/participants/Dutch/FieldMethods/UTMSystem.htm)" and it would have been a nice thing to have :hmmm:

SH3's map was weird. You could sail around the world but only 3-4 times (IIRC). When you sailed east you could arrive back at your original coordinates but you weren't technically in the same spot you started. The map was actually a really wide flat world where the Earth was repeated about 5 times over. If you kept sailing one direction you'd reach the end of the map after a few times around the globe.

SH4's map didn't have that but it had problems connecting across the 180° longitude, where radio stations wouldn't reach over the line and there was that attack map torpedo graphic bug.

Mercator projection IS A CYLINDRICAL PROJECTION. All projections of a 3D globe onto a 2D plane distort information. There is no magic projection that makes the distortion go away. The real fix is to separate the mapspace and the worldspace.

But all along I thought that we got plane projection in SH3 and 4, and that SH5 was getting an all new system, but it seems I was terribly mistaken.

I think I heard it from you or from whomever you heard it from. I guess I was mistaken too. If SH5's world is different from SH4's it is not drastically so.

they didn't feel like they could do proper justice to the later years

In that sense, I'd rather it end in '43 than paint an inaccurate picture of the end of the war

Off topic but I agree with this view completely.

as a UBI dev, when you can lose your job for saying the wrong thing or even speaking about an "off limits" subject that you and i dont see as a big deal then no they cant always defend themselves. sometimes defending themselves can cost them their job.

Let's just say I have antagonism toward the "development process" based on the results. There may indeed be a bevy of gold-hearted programmers allowing themselves to be overlorded by stupid management but fat lot of good that does us. I've seen a few game developer communities where the devs are free to have an open and honest relationship with the customers and it has always been positive. However your usage of the word "respect" borders on abuse of the English language. Every time it's used it has less and less meaning. If a concept cannot be expressed in a way that avoids the word "respect" it's a pretty big clue that said concept is full of hot air.

A global game world is not an easy thing to create and plotting a great circle on a Mercator projection (while easy enough for a Navigator) requires some training to do. I can see why they have chosen not to.

It does screw up distances though at high latitudes which is a problem for a Uboat sim. But to do it, we'd need it to be automatic (some programming work here) or/and a more extensive set of navigation tools.

It's not easy for the layman but trust me that math and programming-savvy types consider it only a moderate hurdle. If the SH devs want to make a modern sub game where you might sail under the polar ice cap, they will have to reinvent the wheel AGAIN. Going back and having to rewrite your stopgap code has got to be more costly than just doing it right the first time.

As a indie-programmer, when I created a world, I could make it spherical, but to add water and other such effects, it had to be flatted, like Millers cylindrical projection, as the water code I was using called for a plane that used a bit of trigonometry to simulate the waves. I have no idea how to curl it back up into a sphere or anything like how earth really is.

You confuse the worldspace with the actionspace. The water rendering only happens in the action space which is small enough where doesn't have to be spherical apart from horizon dip effect. One can think of the actionspace as a small stage touring the globe. The stage doesn't have to mimick the globe in shape exactly, just enough for the required local effects. Shipping traffic outside of the actionspace, inside the worldspace, is not bobbing up and down in a liquid, but simply a small statistical model likely not involving more than 6 variables such as position, type, speed, and heading.

[malkuth74]

DRM has infected us all, expressially when none of us have played it.


This is going to be a funny month. Next week I get AVP, then next week I get Napoleon Total War, then after that I get SHV.

So I have been on a lot of forums lately surfing around, even the mass effect one. And it seems that forums are full of these types of complaints all the time now.

The DRM is bad, but I love SH Series and will stick with it. But get ready for huge complaints and negativity from others soon. I actually think some people actually look for new released games, find the forums and post complaints. Even though they don't have a game.

But oh well. I will have mine the 2nd march. :rock:

[GoldenRivet]

1) I am not in any way superior to anyone here and never pretended such. I may not be allowed to speak on certain matters or post whatever I want, and I'd say that goes against being all powerfull as the demigod accusation may imply.

2) I respect very much the community here, and frankly, its for them that I work. Like any man, I may fail in some of my endeavors.

2010 best post of the year candidate.

:up:

[martes86]

Not much more to add here after the fire, other than a big thumbs up for Dan, Neal, Webster, and anyone else mature, constructive and intelligent enough not to fall for the trolls' tricks. :up:


I'm not. I am just glad Neal didn't yell Crash Dive, and make us all dive into the front seat.
:D

That'd have been hilarious! :rotfl2:

[AngusJS]

Could the SH map center on the North Atlantic, say by using 45 degrees N as its "equator", so that the main area of operations would suffer from the least amount of distortion?

[theluckyone17]

For what it's worth, I'd love to see the world model described by Frederf (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1264275&postcount=62) implemented, hopefully for Silent Hunter 6 :D. Anything that increases the realism is a plus in my book.

Goldenrivet, I second the motion (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1264400&postcount=64).

Neal, thank you.

Elanaiba, thank you.

[Bilge_Rat]

I dont see why UBI should change anything, it is infinitely more simple programming a game using a flat world.

Most players never even realized the SH 3/4 game was flat and it has no practical impact on the game, other than a arbitrary visibility limit.

In SH 4, where the distortions are huge compared to SH 3, I had done some checking on fuel usage and travelling time between various points on the SH 4 map and what it should be in the real world, but the difference is not really noticeable....especially after the novelty wears off and you start warping from point to point...:salute:

[Nisgeis]

You confuse the worldspace with the actionspace. The water rendering only happens in the action space which is small enough where doesn't have to be spherical apart from horizon dip effect. One can think of the actionspace as a small stage touring the globe. The stage doesn't have to mimick the globe in shape exactly, just enough for the required local effects.

I hope SH5 is an improvement over SH4 in this regard. SH4 has a round Earth, flat sea thing going on. It mimicked ships being obscured by the horizon by making them sink lower into the water, the further away they were. The only problem with this was that you could see the waterline and then the horizon behind it, rather than seing the hull obscured by the horizon.

[martes86]

Most players never even realized the SH 3/4 game was flat and it has no practical impact on the game, other than a arbitrary visibility limit.

You're very wrong about that. It does affect navigation (if done emulating real procedures and all that). Since it doesn't project on a spherical model, distances are distorted, and the realism goes away the moment that sailing to some place in the sim doesn't take as long as it would in the real world. Also, as pointed by Nisgeis, flat has issues with horizon-line sight.

Cheers :rock:

[Frederf]

Could the SH map center on the North Atlantic, say by using 45 degrees N as its "equator", so that the main area of operations would suffer from the least amount of distortion?

Theoretically yes, the "line of no distortion" is where the cylinder intersects the globe which can be any pairs of latitude. The cylinder can cut through the globe such that the equator region is projected inward and has a contraction distortion while the pole regions have an expansion distortion.

It mimicked ships being obscured by the horizon by making them sink lower into the water, the further away they were. The only problem with this was that you could see the waterline and then the horizon behind it, rather than seing the hull obscured by the horizon.

I thought SH3 was like that but SH4 had a better solution? That's terrible and explains why it's so easy to spot ships in SH3 and SH4, they are so drastically highlighted by being off the horizon.

It should still be reminded that a spherical worldspace and a spherical actionspace are two entirely independent concepts. Either could be addressed in any order or combination without interdependence. Silent Hunter could get a curved actionspace (or localspace if you like) and retain the old, flat worldspace or vice versa.

[slowworm]

I know I'm tired and I'm missing something but we've always used a cylindrical projection. Sh3,4,5.

It's not you. Most folks don't realize the mercator map projection is cylindrical.

What I really wanted was a true spheroid. Oh well. Maybe SH6 with real star and sunshots with a sextant and sight reduction tables......

[elanaiba]

In SH5, it would be even much more important that REAL distances are taken into consideration. As ships and convoys can reroute dynamically, distances are an important factor.

Of course, there are ways around that, and there's a number of problems associated with spherical worlds. One being that you have to take the time to implement it and make AI work with it.

SH3, SH4, SH5, all have ships going down "under the horizon" to make up for the earth curvature.